Pianotech

I've been given the task of dealing with the dissatisfied customers of an action rebuild from a big city hot shot.
In the photo you'll see the hammer line. The tone dies in the second treble section, all impact noise, dull.
The hammers in this top section are slightly overstriking and are pitched forwards slightly. They are hung at 130 mm.

Moving down the line, the first treble section is hung at 128 mm. The top of the tenor section is hung at 131 mm.
I've heard of a curved hammer line but not a staggered one.

I'll take the action back to the piano to test strike points but I'm thinking I'll have to at least rehang the top section to 90 degrees.

On note 88, I improved the touch slightly by shimming the wippen flange to produce a 112.75 spread, up from 10 mm (not the 9.5 spec).
50/28 to 46/28.  This also aligned the knuckle core with the jack center.

The hammer center is equal at both ends but the wippen center is 1.5 mm lower in the treble but raising this didn't make enough difference to bother. I have another action here which I had to elevate the top action 5 mm in the bass and 4 mm in the treble.
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Regards,

Jon Page

PS This was my second attempt to compose this because much of the text suddenly disappeared with the motion of my mouse.
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The treble dullness probably comes mostly from too much mass in the hammers at that end, judging from the picture. It appears to be a ny Steinway hammer as well which also means the overall structure of the hammer depending on the lacquering could be anything. I'd consider sampling some other hammers especially with reduced mass in the treble before I got into rehanging. That might help love the weight issue as well. Contact me off list if you want a specific suggestion. ------------------------------------------- David Love RPT www.davidlovepianos.com davidlovepianos@comcast.net 415 407 8320 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 05-22-2013 08:16 From: Jon Page Subject: Hammer Line I've been given the task of dealing with the dissatisfied customers of an action rebuild from a big city hot shot. In the photo you'll see the hammer line. The tone dies in the second treble section, all impact noise, dull. The hammers in this top section are slightly overstriking and are pitched forwards slightly. They are hung at 130 mm. Moving down the line, the first treble section is hung at 128 mm. The top of the tenor section is hung at 131 mm. I've heard of a curved hammer line but not a staggered one. I'll take the action back to the piano to test strike points but I'm thinking I'll have to at least rehang the top section to 90 degrees. On note 88, I improved the touch slightly by shimming the wippen flange to produce a 112.75 spread, up from 10 mm (not the 9.5 spec). 50/28 to 46/28. This also aligned the knuckle core with the jack center. The hammer center is equal at both ends but the wippen center is 1.5 mm lower in the treble but raising this didn't make enough difference to bother. I have another action here which I had to elevate the top action 5 mm in the bass and 4 mm in the treble. ------------------------------------------- Regards, Jon Page PS This was my second attempt to compose this because much of the text suddenly disappeared with the motion of my mouse. -------------------------------------------

Although the top two octaves could stand to have the HRW reduced by 1 gram, that still wouldn't compensate for the overstriking. A simple work around would be to elevate the top action ~1mm, this would also improve on the scant after touch and I could bring the WCH even end to end.

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Regards,

Jon Page

On 5/22/2013 7:16 AM, Jon Page wrote: > > I'll take the action back to the piano to test strike points but I'm > thinking I'll have to at least rehang the top section to 90 degrees. I'd be surprised if the strike points were anywhere close to where they need to be. That would be my first look-see. Hopefully, there will be enough room to move the action to locate the strike point. You can then "center" the action within it's fore/aft adjustment range when you rehang the hammers. And while you're correcting that (probably the top two sections), squaring up the hammers is just another detail. Let us know what you find, if you would. I'm wondering by what criteria these hammers were hung, when it worked so poorly. > ------------------------------------------- Regards, > > Jon Page > > PS This was my second attempt to compose this because much of the > text suddenly disappeared with the motion of my mouse. > ------------------------------------------- Get used to it, or post on the old Pianotech replacement (pianotech@googlegroups.com), which works with email and attachments like the original. Ron N

The capstans were relocated from .50 to .48 and the wippen heel modified.

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Regards,

Jon Page

The way that wippen heel cloth is glued, it just looks like a noisy action waiting to develop in a short time, if that hasn't happened already.

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Jurgen Goering

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Original Message:
Sent: 05-22-2013 10:38
From: Jon Page
Subject: Hammer Line

The capstans were relocated from .50 to .48 and the wippen heel modified.

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Regards,

Jon Page

This was done about three years ago and the cushion felt has a pretty good indent and discoloration from the brass capstan. The broad S&S capstan was replaced with a more narrow one adding to the compression. If they were replacing the capstans, why didn't they go for the ones from WNG? The old felt and molding was cut off to accommodate the placement of the capstan forwards 3mm. With the angled heel and a capstan installed at 90 degrees, the majority of the discolor and imprint are at the rear. Once I install the flange shim to increase the action spread, I may under cut the cushion and thread in a narrow strip of bushing cloth (flange bushing cloth width) favoring the front portion to take the some of the pressure off the rear portion of the contact point.

All this just because they wanted to use gen-u-whine parts. Wippens with the heel placement options are just as good if not better than this execution. I don't even want to talk about the hammer selection.


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Regards,

Jon Page

I started weight reduction from note 30 with the top end pared down 1 gram each and it helped to brighten the sound. More from reshaping than weight probably. I pushed the action frame in a little and the first treble section sounded better. That's some mistake to hang them 2 mm short on the shanks. Attached is a photo of the filed/tapered hammers before setting a hammer line.

The top action does not sit evenly on the frame and there is knocking on the front and back rails, the wip center/rear brackets are a little too low which placing shims may help to seat the top action to the frame better.  The fun begins...

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Regards,

Jon Page

"All this because they wanted to use gen-u-whine parts..."

So did moving capstans improve the action ratio? Was this to compensate for a modified knuckle to centerpin dimension from the shank that originally was installed in the piano? Are you changing action spread to accommodate, again, an irregular shank in the first place, in that you observed this "aligned the knuckle with the jack center" with a measurement contrary to "specs?" Maybe the action ratio was fine in the first place, and all this is taking place to accommodate a shank with a different knuckle to centerpin dimension? Did Steinway need to coddle the "big city hot shot" by making sure he used shanks with an appropriate knuckle to centerpin dimension? Why would anyone so concerned about action ratio be so careless?

The hammer hanging job looks like a combination of hired help, running out of time, not wanting to purchase more "gen-u-whine parts," and a hammer hanging jig unwilling to cooperate with a beginner, which it could be argued, never should be used by the most experienced tech.

What is the serial #? Is it possible to obtain original knuckle to centerpin dimension of the shank? Did you make all these determinations without saying so?

Sounds like the new shanks augmented the knuckle to centerpin distance, and splitting hairs about action ratio led to a whole domino effect of actions that got in the way of the simple task of a good hammer hanging job that would have, even with the irregular knuckles, satisfied the client anyway.

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Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2013 16:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: Hammer Line

I started weight reduction from note 30 with the top end pared down 1 gram each and it helped to brighten the sound. More from reshaping than weight probably. I pushed the action frame in a little and the first treble section sounded better. That's some mistake to hang them 2 mm short on the shanks. Attached is a photo of the filed/tapered hammers before setting a hammer line.

The top action does not sit evenly on the frame and there is knocking on the front and back rails, the wip center/rear brackets are a little too low which placing shims may help to seat the top action to the frame better.  The fun begins...

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Regards,

Jon Page

-----Original Message----- From: Jon Page RE:Hammer Line >>I started weight reduction from note 30 with the top end pared down 1 gram each and it helped to brighten the sound. More from reshaping than weight probably. >> Greetings, I don't know, I have found a direct correlation between weight and tone. The last example was pretty clear. I had Renner Blues in a 1967 Centenary grand (M). I thought the piano was right, but it became destined to go in one of our younger piano faculty members, and I was asked if I could add some resistance. I had DW at 54 at A0, 52 at A2, 50 at A3,and 48 at A4 with a similar progression on up. So, rather than get into permanent changes on a custom, note by note balancing job I had just done,( for what might not be a permanent home), I got a box of clips and put them on the shanks. This added 4 grams to the DW. The pianist was happy, and then admitted that she was going to ask me to voice it down, even softer, but the clips had changed the tone enough that she wanted it kept where it was. I had done nothing to the hammers, and it did seem to have lost some of the attack and edge. Weight, specifically SW, seems inversely proportional to "brilliance", all by itself. regards, Ed Foote RPT http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html

That's right.  "Brightness" (meaning more high partial development) is directly related to density (or stiffness) and inversely related to mass.  Higher density hammers produce more brightness and lighter weight hammers do to.  If you want brighter either increase density or reduce mass.  If you want darker either reduce density or increase mass.  If you want very dark, reduce density and increase mass.  If you want very bright increase density and reduce mass. 

Of course there are other ramifications for each of those choices. 

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David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2013 18:27
From: Edward Foote
Subject: Hammer Line

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Page RE:Hammer Line
>>I started weight reduction from note 30 with the top end pared down 1
gram each and it helped to brighten the sound. More from reshaping than
weight probably. >>


Greetings,
I don't know, I have found a direct correlation between weight and
tone. The last example was pretty clear. I had Renner Blues in a 1967
Centenary grand (M). I thought the piano was right, but it became
destined to go in one of our younger piano faculty members, and I was
asked if I could add some resistance. I had DW at 54 at A0, 52
at A2, 50 at A3,and 48 at A4 with a similar progression on up.

So, rather than get into permanent changes on a custom, note by note
balancing job I had just done,( for what might not be a permanent
home), I got a box of clips and put them on the shanks. This added 4
grams to the DW. The pianist was happy, and then admitted that she was
going to ask me to voice it down, even softer, but the clips had
changed the tone enough that she wanted it kept where it was. I had
done nothing to the hammers, and it did seem to have lost some of the
attack and edge.

Weight, specifically SW, seems inversely proportional to
"brilliance", all by itself.
regards,
Ed Foote RPT
http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html

On 5/26/2013 5:30 PM, Edward Foote wrote: > > > Weight, specifically SW, seems inversely proportional to > "brilliance", all by itself. String contact time, ya s'pose? Ron N

I'm new to this discussion, but I may have a similar problem at hand.  Could you tell me what you're using to shim the wippen?  Much obliged.

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Harry Miller
RPT
Lawrence KS
785-832-2443
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I'm not sure what is meant by shimming the wippen, but assume this means the practice of gluing a narrow strip of thin material between a flange and the rail, generally referred to as 'travelling'. Years ago this was usually done with pre-glued paper packing tape, but this is a thing of the past. I use 1/8' wide masking tape. This is available from Schaff Piano Supply, some hobby stores or www.MicroMark.com and possibly other sources. It should always be applied to the edge of the flange prong, never to the rail.

Ted Sambell

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Edward Sambell
London ON
519-474-7597
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2013 12:07
From: Harry Miller
Subject: Hammer Line

I'm new to this discussion, but I may have a similar problem at hand.  Could you tell me what you're using to shim the wippen?  Much obliged.

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Harry Miller
RPT
Lawrence KS
785-832-2443
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>Could you tell me what you're using to shim the wippen?

I place a long strip of J weight (thick) sand paper between the rail and the flange above the screw shank. This tips the flange and increases the action spread (distance between the hammer flange center pin and the wippen flange center pin). Sometimes I glue two strips together.
You don't need to remove all the wips, just the ones at the ends of each section. Loosen the screws enough to feed the strip along. You may also need to remove one or two wips in the center to help guide the strip.

In the attached photo, I think that is a double strip.  I get rolls of this sand paper and fine emery cloth (S&S hammer rail) to cut long strips from Klingspor:   http://www.woodworkingshop.com

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Regards,

Jon Page

I prefer to use 1/8" hardwood dowels cut to length of each section and then flattend on a bench sander to the appropriate thickness.  Often the thickness requirement will vary from one end of each section to the other so tapering the shim is necessary.  As Jon does I slip it under the top of the flange only to tilt it back.  Install the end wippens in each section along with a shank/flange assembly
and measure the spread in advance of installing all the wippens to see if an adjustment is necessary.  Use hardwood as you can easily crush a softer wood and change the thickness when tightening the wippen flange screw. 
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David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2013 18:39
From: Jon Page
Subject: Hammer Line

>Could you tell me what you're using to shim the wippen?

I place a long strip of J weight (thick) sand paper between the rail and the flange above the screw shank. This tips the flange and increases the action spread (distance between the hammer flange center pin and the wippen flange center pin). Sometimes I glue two strips together.
You don't need to remove all the wips, just the ones at the ends of each section. Loosen the screws enough to feed the strip along. You may also need to remove one or two wips in the center to help guide the strip.

In the attached photo, I think that is a double strip.  I get rolls of this sand paper and fine emery cloth (S&S hammer rail) to cut long strips from Klingspor:   http://www.woodworkingshop.com

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Regards,

Jon Page