Pianotech

I appreciate any thoughts on this.  I was called to examine a Chickering 121 Quartergrand after it had returned to the home in which a fire had occurred.  The piano obviously had many soundboard cracks previously repaired with glues, epoxies, whatever seemed to work, or not.  It had a severe buzz which client said was not there before the fire.  Fire began 8 feet from the piano, but spread away from the piano.

The buzz is caused by one of those repaired cracks coming apart at the rib (high treble towards belly rail).  Client hoped that I would report that the fire heat had caused this;  while on site I had carelessly remarked something about hide glue being capable of heat distress, which client latched on to.  My report suggests that the incident (fire or handling afterwards) might have contributed to the damage, based on the clients statement that the buzz wasn't there before, but that there was not other evidence of heat damage to the piano, so I could not specifically attribute the fire as a cause of damage.

As is the case in these things, the client is disappointed, and sure that I should have been more clear about a causal relationship between the fire and the soundboard damage.  I told him I couldn't see it, but would share with the list and see if others might disagree with me on this.  I appreciate very much any thoughts!  Picture attached.

Bill

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Bill Shull, RPT, M.Mus.
President, Shull Piano, Period Piano Center
bdshull@aol.com
www.shullpiano.com
www.periodpianocenter.org
Loma Linda, CA
909 796-4226
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Hi, Bill: It could have been caused by the extreme drop in humidity, rather than the actual heat of the fire. A soundboard can crack or rib joints fail when there is very low humidity, even if there is normal temperature in the room. Heat itself may not have done the actual damage. The pictures don't suggest charring, which as you describe wouldn't have happened because the fire was several feet from the piano. But the heat could have caused the air to dehydrate the wood enough to cause the glue failure. My thoughts. Paul McCloud San Diego ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Shull" To: "Paul McCloud" Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 3:53:19 AM Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: Insurance report of fire damage I appreciate any thoughts on this. I was called to examine a Chickering 121 Quartergrand after it had returned to the home in which a fire had occurred. The piano obviously had many soundboard cracks previously repaired with glues, epoxies, whatever seemed to work, or not. It had a severe buzz which client said was not there before the fire. Fire began 8 feet from the piano, but spread away from the piano. The buzz is caused by one of those repaired cracks coming apart at the rib (high treble towards belly rail). Client hoped that I would report that the fire heat had caused this; while on site I had carelessly remarked something about hide glue being capable of heat distress, which client latched on to. My report suggests that the incident (fire or handling afterwards) might have contributed to the damage, based on the clients statement that the buzz wasn't there before, but that there was not other evidence of heat damage to the piano, so I could not specifically attribute the fire as a cause of damage. As is the case in these things, the client is disappointed, and sure that I should have been more clear about a causal relationship between the fire and the soundboard damage. I told him I couldn't see it, but would share with the list and see if others might disagree with me on this. I appreciate very much any thoughts! Picture attached. Bill ------------------------------------------- Bill Shull, RPT, M.Mus. President, Shull Piano, Period Piano Center bdshull@aol.com www.shullpiano.com www.periodpianocenter.org Loma Linda, CA 909 796-4226 -------------------------------------------

Excellent thoughts, Paul, thank you. Bill Sent from my HTC Inspire™ 4G on AT&T ----- Reply message ----- From: "Paul McCloud" To: "William Shull" Subject: [PTG Pianotech] : RE: Insurance report of fire damage Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 4:38 am Hi, Bill: It could have been caused by the extreme drop in humidity, rather than the actual heat of the fire. A soundboard can crack or rib joints fail when there is very low humidity, even if there is normal temperature in the room. Heat itself may not have done the actual damage. The pictures don't suggest charring, which as you describe wouldn't have happened because the fire was several feet from the piano. But the heat could have caused the air to dehydrate the wood enough to cause the glue failure. My thoughts. Paul McCloud San Diego ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Shull" To: "Paul McCloud" Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 3:53:19 AM Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: Insurance report of fire damage I appreciate any thoughts on this. I was called to examine a Chickering 121 Quartergrand after it had returned to the home in which a fire had occurred. The piano obviously had many soundboard cracks previously repaired with glues, epoxies, whatever seemed to work, or not. It had a severe buzz which client said was not there before the fire. Fire began 8 feet from the piano, but spread away from the piano. The buzz is caused by one of those repaired cracks coming apart at the rib (high treble towards belly rail). Client hoped that I would report that the fire heat had caused this; while on site I had carelessly remarked something about hide glue being capable of heat distress, which client latched on to. My report suggests that the incident (fire or handling afterwards) might have contributed to the damage, based on the clients statement that the buzz wasn't there before, but that there was not other evidence of heat damage to the piano, so I could not specifically attribute the fire as a cause of damage. As is the case in these things, the client is disappointed, and sure that I should have been more clear about a causal relationship between the fire and the soundboard damage. I told him I couldn't see it, but would share with the list and see if others might disagree with me on this. I appreciate very much any thoughts! Picture attached. Bill ------------------------------------------- Bill Shull, RPT, M.Mus. President, Shull Piano, Period Piano Center bdshull@aol.com www.shullpiano.com www.periodpianocenter.org Loma Linda, CA 909 796-4226 -------------------------------------------

Part of the problem that one (you in this particular case) feels like he is in the position of judging the veracity of the owner's claim (it was fine before the fire). While we have all learned by experience to be skeptical about piano owners' perceptions about the condition of their piano (the pinblock was fine until you tuned it; did the movers put all those cracks into my piano's soundboard), I believe the insurance adjuster (and the appraiser that he hires) is responsible for making that particular judgment.
I attended part of Dave Schmidt's (do I have the name right? - Cory Products owner) presentation on smoke and other odor control last month. Fires' heat and smoke can do a lot of damage that isn't obvious to the naked eye.
I would suggest at least giving an estimate for fixing the rib-soundboard separation, of a quality slightly better than the earlier repair work (better clamping, use of a gap filling glue if necessary).

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Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690
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Sounds to me, Bill, that you handled it properly. Unless you had serviced the piano a week before the fire there is no way you can be certain that it's present problems were caused by the fire. Yes, we have an obligation to do the best we can for our customers, but we have a higher obligation to be honest. Another question is how well do you know the piano owner? Twice I have had owners ask me to inflate repair costs just to make a little extra $ from the insurance company. I've also seen a couple of cases where the piano obviously needed work done and a fire, or movers, or a broken water pipe was just seemed like a convenient way to have the insurance company pay for it.
Again, I think you've done the right thing. If the customer pushes, maybe the insurance company will offer something just to keep the customer happy - the "squeaky wheel" theory. I've seen that work too.

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Gerry Johnston
Haverhill MA
978-372-2250
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-22-2013 07:49
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Insurance report of fire damage

Part of the problem that one (you in this particular case) feels like he is in the position of judging the veracity of the owner's claim (it was fine before the fire). While we have all learned by experience to be skeptical about piano owners' perceptions about the condition of their piano (the pinblock was fine until you tuned it; did the movers put all those cracks into my piano's soundboard), I believe the insurance adjuster (and the appraiser that he hires) is responsible for making that particular judgment.
I attended part of Dave Schmidt's (do I have the name right? - Cory Products owner) presentation on smoke and other odor control last month. Fires' heat and smoke can do a lot of damage that isn't obvious to the naked eye.
I would suggest at least giving an estimate for fixing the rib-soundboard separation, of a quality slightly better than the earlier repair work (better clamping, use of a gap filling glue if necessary).

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Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690
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Thanks, Patrick, I did that estimate but didn't state precisely what caused the buzzing. Bill Sent from my HTC Inspire™ 4G on AT&T ----- Reply message ----- From: "Patrick Draine" To: "William Shull" Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: RE:Insurance report of fire damage Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 4:49 am Part of the problem that one (you in this particular case) feels like he is in the position of judging the veracity of the owner's claim (it was fine before the fire). While we have all learned by experience to be skeptical about piano owners' perceptions about the condition of their piano (the pinblock was fine until you tuned it; did the movers put all those cracks into my piano's soundboard), I believe the insurance adjuster (and the appraiser that he hires) is responsible for making that particular judgment. I attended part of Dave Schmidt's (do I have the name right? - Cory Products owner) presentation on smoke and other odor control last month. Fires' heat and smoke can do a lot of damage that isn't obvious to the naked eye. I would suggest at least giving an estimate for fixing the rib-soundboard separation, of a quality slightly better than the earlier repair work (better clamping, use of a gap filling glue if necessary). ------------------------------------------- Patrick Draine Billerica MA 978-663-9690 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 05-22-2013 06:53 From: William Shull Subject: Insurance report of fire damage I appreciate any thoughts on this. I was called to examine a Chickering 121 Quartergrand after it had returned to the home in which a fire had occurred. The piano obviously had many soundboard cracks previously repaired with glues, epoxies, whatever seemed to work, or not. It had a severe buzz which client said was not there before the fire. Fire began 8 feet from the piano, but spread away from the piano. The buzz is caused by one of those repaired cracks coming apart at the rib (high treble towards belly rail). Client hoped that I would report that the fire heat had caused this; while on site I had carelessly remarked something about hide glue being capable of heat distress, which client latched on to. My report suggests that the incident (fire or handling afterwards) might have contributed to the damage, based on the clients statement that the buzz wasn't there before, but that there was not other evidence of heat damage to the piano, so I could not specifically attribute the fire as a cause of damage. As is the case in these things, the client is disappointed, and sure that I should have been more clear about a causal relationship between the fire and the soundboard damage. I told him I couldn't see it, but would share with the list and see if others might disagree with me on this. I appreciate very much any thoughts! Picture attached. Bill ------------------------------------------- Bill Shull, RPT, M.Mus. President, Shull Piano, Period Piano Center bdshull@aol.com www.shullpiano.com www.periodpianocenter.org Loma Linda, CA 909 796-4226 -------------------------------------------

I try to remember to state on every fire/water damage appraisal, things may change as the piano dries out (or re-hydrates). I therefore withhold final judgement on needed repairs. I pulled an older Steinway out of a water damaged house to store in the dry. No damage detected, even on returning the piano a few months later. About six months later, the lady called the insurance to report hazing in the finish that had just showed up. Adjuster said they were expecting that call and paid for a refinish. Are you talking directly to the insurance adjuster? ------------------------------------------- David Stocker Olympia WA Lingua Latina mortua est -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 05-22-2013 06:53 From: William Shull Subject: Insurance report of fire damage I appreciate any thoughts on this. I was called to examine a Chickering 121 Quartergrand after it had returned to the home in which a fire had occurred. The piano obviously had many soundboard cracks previously repaired with glues, epoxies, whatever seemed to work, or not. It had a severe buzz which client said was not there before the fire. Fire began 8 feet from the piano, but spread away from the piano. The buzz is caused by one of those repaired cracks coming apart at the rib (high treble towards belly rail). Client hoped that I would report that the fire heat had caused this; while on site I had carelessly remarked something about hide glue being capable of heat distress, which client latched on to. My report suggests that the incident (fire or handling afterwards) might have contributed to the damage, based on the clients statement that the buzz wasn't there before, but that there was not other evidence of heat damage to the piano, so I could not specifically attribute the fire as a cause of damage. As is the case in these things, the client is disappointed, and sure that I should have been more clear about a causal relationship between the fire and the soundboard damage. I told him I couldn't see it, but would share with the list and see if others might disagree with me on this. I appreciate very much any thoughts! Picture attached. Bill ------------------------------------------- Bill Shull, RPT, M.Mus. President, Shull Piano, Period Piano Center bdshull@aol.com www.shullpiano.com www.periodpianocenter.org Loma Linda, CA 909 796-4226 -------------------------------------------

David, Client hired me, I have no contact with adjustor. This fire was not extinguished with water. Bill Sent from my HTC Inspire™ 4G on AT&T ----- Reply message ----- From: "David Stocker" To: "William Shull" Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: RE:Insurance report of fire damage Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 7:51 am I try to remember to state on every fire/water damage appraisal, things may change as the piano dries out (or re-hydrates). I therefore withhold final judgement on needed repairs. I pulled an older Steinway out of a water damaged house to store in the dry. No damage detected, even on returning the piano a few months later. About six months later, the lady called the insurance to report hazing in the finish that had just showed up. Adjuster said they were expecting that call and paid for a refinish. Are you talking directly to the insurance adjuster? ------------------------------------------- David Stocker Olympia WA Lingua Latina mortua est -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 05-22-2013 06:53 From: William Shull Subject: Insurance report of fire damage I appreciate any thoughts on this. I was called to examine a Chickering 121 Quartergrand after it had returned to the home in which a fire had occurred. The piano obviously had many soundboard cracks previously repaired with glues, epoxies, whatever seemed to work, or not. It had a severe buzz which client said was not there before the fire. Fire began 8 feet from the piano, but spread away from the piano. The buzz is caused by one of those repaired cracks coming apart at the rib (high treble towards belly rail). Client hoped that I would report that the fire heat had caused this; while on site I had carelessly remarked something about hide glue being capable of heat distress, which client latched on to. My report suggests that the incident (fire or handling afterwards) might have contributed to the damage, based on the clients statement that the buzz wasn't there before, but that there was not other evidence of heat damage to the piano, so I could not specifically attribute the fire as a cause of damage. As is the case in these things, the client is disappointed, and sure that I should have been more clear about a causal relationship between the fire and the soundboard damage. I told him I couldn't see it, but would share with the list and see if others might disagree with me on this. I appreciate very much any thoughts! Picture attached. Bill ------------------------------------------- Bill Shull, RPT, M.Mus. President, Shull Piano, Period Piano Center bdshull@aol.com www.shullpiano.com www.periodpianocenter.org Loma Linda, CA 909 796-4226 -------------------------------------------

Bill

Two things I have not seen mentioned by anyone. First, you said the piano had  been "returned". By that I assume the piano was removed from the house to a storage facility of some sort while the house was being repaired. In addition to the cracks being caused by the fire, you might want to mention that the cracks, with the buzzing, could have been caused by being stored. 

But another thing that has not been mentioned is, what does the customer want?  So the buzzing is coming from one of the cracks in the soundboard. Even if you testify that the cracks were caused by the fire, does she want the insurance company to pay for a new soundboard, with all the accompanying costs? Or does she have a replacement policy, which says she is entitled to a new instrument of comparable value?

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Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
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Wim, Yes, the piano has been stored, cleaned, and returned. The customer has his own clear idea of the insurance policy. The customer has requested an estimate for the cost of repairing the damage. I'm appreciative of the responses today, and believe that the sudden and severe dryness caused the repaired cracks at the ribs to come apart, and don't see this as repairable after the incident, and quoted a replacement soundboard with the corresponding work. The company and client can do what they want with that. Regards, Bill In a message dated 5/22/2013 8:52:42 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, noreply@egroups.ptg.org writes: Bill Two things I have not seen mentioned by anyone. First, you said the piano had been "returned". By that I assume the piano was removed from the house to a storage facility of some sort while the house was being repaired. In addition to the cracks being caused by the fire, you might want to mention that the cracks, with the buzzing, could have been caused by being stored. But another thing that has not been mentioned is, what does the customer want? So the buzzing is coming from one of the cracks in the soundboard. Even if you testify that the cracks were caused by the fire, does she want the insurance company to pay for a new soundboard, with all the accompanying costs? Or does she have a replacement policy, which says she is entitled to a new instrument of comparable value? ------------------------------------------- Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT Mililani, HI 96789 ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- Original Message: Sent: 05-22-2013 06:53 From: William Shull Subject: Insurance report of fire damage I appreciate any thoughts on this. I was called to examine a Chickering 121 Quartergrand after it had returned to the home in which a fire had occurred. The piano obviously had many soundboard cracks previously repaired with glues, epoxies, whatever seemed to work, or not. It had a severe buzz which client said was not there before the fire. Fire began 8 feet from the piano, but spread away from the piano. The buzz is caused by one of those repaired cracks coming apart at the rib (high treble towards belly rail). Client hoped that I would report that the fire heat had caused this; while on site I had carelessly remarked something about hide glue being capable of heat distress, which client latched on to. My report suggests that the incident (fire or handling afterwards) might have contributed to the damage, based on the clients statement that the buzz wasn't there before, but that there was not other evidence of heat damage to the piano, so I could not specifically attribute the fire as a cause of damage. As is the case in these things, the client is disappointed, and sure that I should have been more clear about a causal relationship between the fire and the soundboard damage. I told him I couldn't see it, but would share with the list and see if others might disagree with me on this. I appreciate very much any thoughts! Picture attached. Bill ------------------------------------------- Bill Shull, RPT, M.Mus. President, Shull Piano, Period Piano Center bdshull@aol.com www.shullpiano.com www.periodpianocenter.org Loma Linda, CA 909 796-4226 -------------------------------------------

Something from our PTG site that may help:

"In the event of a fire, intense dry heat is present. As the flames are extinguished, the hot, humid smoldering effect takes place. It is not uncommon to witness a relative humidity factor as low as 2% at the course of a fire. The extinguishing process could easily exert the humidity level upwards of 150% or more."
Full article: http://www.ptg.org/scripts/4disapi.dll/4DCGI/cms/review.html?Action=CMS_Document&DocID=200&&MenuKey=Menu27

2% to 150% could certainly do a number on a repair or the original glue joints. This occurrence would be believable even if the fire was in the next room.

Did the last tuner mention anything on his/her bill about a soundboard buzz? I know I would if I were tuning it and the board needed attention, because I wouldnt want to be blamed for it. If they have a receipt from the previous tuning, and nothing is mentioned, they may have a point.

The fact that the board had cracks and was previously repaired would tell me that the board was on the eve of destruction before the fire. The heat and extinguishing could have easily pushed it over the edge.

I would be inclined to spin it in favor of the customer. There is nothing wrong with writing a report that says:

According to the customer, there was no buzz before the incident. The swing in humidity is a very plausible reason for any soundboard to fail. See PTG article on smoke and fire damage :http://www.ptg.org/scripts/4disapi.dll/4DCGI/cms/review.html?Action=CMS_Document&DocID=200&&MenuKey=Menu27  There is much more happening to a piano during a fire than meets the naked eye.



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David Estey, RPT
www.EsteyPiano.com
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Creating Harmony in a World filled with Discord.
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dave@esteypiano.com

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