Pianotech

You're joking right? Although I didn't see any smiley faces. There are so many preposterous statements in here that I don't even know where to begin, so I won't. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com To an extent the guild is obligated to follow the gentlemen that ended this conflict and declared terms of peace, Sanderson and Baldissin, generations ago, and called for peaceful co-existence. Yet some people, unfortunately, when called to follow, not lead, are unwilling to step up to the plate, and be part of the team. In recent past, ETD users not so great have attempted to use their authority to force people to use ETDs. This would be repugnant if aural tuners did the same as well. Because of having experienced this abuse of authority, at times I have become rather coercive on this list. My apologies for that. I may have been misunderstood. I am for peaceful coexistence. It would be nice if the PTG could build on what Baldissin and Sanderson did, and assemble a proposition for consideration by the PTG, that would forbid any PTG member from using their authority to force any other RPT from using an ETD, or not using an ETD. But too many ETD users are so threatened by aural tuners for this to happen. Why? I have recently, occasionally, recommended Tune Lab to clients. I show them it on my phone, and explain how the trial version works, and that it is free, tell them, all you need is a hammer and a mute, and yer set! Why do they call me back? This is what is so threatening to ETD users. ETDs turn tuning into an oil change. Painting the dining room. Something you can do yourself if you are willing to get on the ground and get dirty, or get paint on your skin. Also appeals to clients. It puts the tuner on their level. Aural tuners, however, demonstrate to clients, that I do something you can't do. This scares the bejesus out of ETD users. It puts the ETD user on the level of a client, and makes their colleagues, the aural tuners, the experts. This is why ETD users frequently give a false account of their aural tuning experience. ETD users change their story so many times. However, it should not scare anybody. Many clients prefer a tuner that does things they can do, not things they can't, like tune aurally, or play, in some cases. Nevertheless, these observations and recommendations are a result of always striving to look up, not down, at colleagues and clients. And some ETD users want to look down on their colleagues and clients so bad, and the only thing standing in their way, is an aural tuner, or a piano owner with tune lab. I trained one client to tune aurally in one Sat. afternoon. I always try to encourage colleagues by insisting they CAN tune with their ears as well as their eyes. You can do it! There are broad sweeping generalities and particularities. But there is truth in general and in particular. The RCT pitch raise program, in general, is not as effective for uprights. I know, I've tried, and unlike too many technicians, I know what the piano sounds like when I'm done, because I like to play and perform, however well. I will be this weekend. The guys raving about the pitch raise efficacy, I know in some cases, suspect, in others, don't tune a lot of uprights, perhaps, for that very reason, not just snobbery. I like to tune uprights, because RCT helped me to figure out how to tune uprights left-handed, without the distraction of thinking through it. Now uprights are a physical break from working, while I am still working; being ambidextrous helps me do everything better. Yet for years, admittedly, RCT tuned Hamilton Consoles better than me. It takes work to get good at aural tuning, and it is harder. Why climb Everest when you can climb Mount Mitchell? Is the easy way the right way? If you want your way to be more impressive, tune aurally. I am for peaceful coexistence. Sanderson and Baldissin saw this problem on the horizon, and tried to obviate the conflict. Is the PTG obligated to be guided by them still, and find common ground for those on both sides? ------------------------------------------- Benjamin Sloane Cincinnati OH 513-257-8480 -------------------------------------------

Greetings, There is another, perhaps parallel universe, somewhere. I haven't a clue what could have created such a victimhood perspective! To wit: -----Original Message----- From: Benjamin Sloane >In recent past, ETD users not so great have attempted to use their authority to force people to use ETDs.> It would be nice if the PTG could build on what Baldissin and Sanderson did, and assemble a proposition for consideration by the PTG, that would forbid any PTG member from using their authority to force any other RPT from using an ETD, or not using an ETD. But too many ETD users are so threatened by aural tuners for this to happen.> Aural tuners, however, demonstrate to clients, that I do something you can't do. This scares the bejesus out of ETD users. It puts the ETD user on the level of a client, and makes their colleagues, the aural tuners, the experts.> I trained one client to tune aurally in one Sat. afternoon. Then you are a magician. I defy anyone to demonstrate an acceptable tuning ability with one afternoon's training. >>Yet for years, admittedly, RCT tuned Hamilton Consoles better than me. It takes work to get good at aural tuning, and it is harder. Why climb Everest when you can climb Mount Mitchell? Is the easy way the right way? If you want your way to be more impressive, tune aurally. << It has been a long time since I was impressed by an aural tuner. There were a number of incredible tuners in Boston in 1975, and I heard them( Cody, Garlick, Betts). Haven't seen that level of expertise out in the field since. When I graduated from school, came to Nashville to set up shop, it only took one recording session to end another aural tuner's career here. He was regarded as the best, but he was selling slop, and no one knew it. And if my results don't impress, my customers don't give a rat's rear about how I did it. And if an ETD is tuning a console better than ears alone, those ears must be hopelessly lost, since the machines I have seen do a poor job on small pianos. Big, well-scaled instruments can be tuned by ETD to a standard rarely matched by aural tuners, but the small pianos require an educated and practiced ear to make the unavoidable compromises. If one can't out tune an ETD on a spinet, I would suggest a couple more Saturday afternoons. Regards,

I don't know what is changing my mail, but the last post was not what I sent. I am reposting, hopefully it will show up as I sent it! Greetings, There is another, perhaps parallel universe, somewhere. I haven't a clue what could have created such a victimhood perspective! To wit: -----Original Message----- From: Benjamin Sloane "In recent past, ETD users not so great have attempted to use their authority to force people to use ETDs." I am personally pretty sensitive to people using "authority" on me. I haven't seen or heard of anybody trying to do this, so I must ask, What "authority" are you talking about? " It would be nice if the PTG could build on what Baldissin and Sanderson did, and assemble a proposition for consideration by the PTG, that would forbid any PTG member from using their authority to force any other RPT from using an ETD, or not using an ETD. But too many ETD users are so threatened by aural tuners for this to happen" Aha, here is a suggestion for the PTG to assume the authority for forbidding members to force others to do things? Why would any competent technician need a governing body to protect them? Against what? "Aural tuners, however, demonstrate to clients, that I do something you can't do. This scares the bejesus out of ETD users. It puts the ETD user on the level of a client, and makes their colleagues, the aural tuners, the experts. " Aural tuners, in my experience, leave a trail of tunings that might score a 50 on the Guild tests. There used to be some decent ones, but mighty few, and they simply prove the exception. The charlatans and quacks have now gotten their hands on ETD's, leaving the barely competent to go on championing the cause of un-assisted aural tunings. I was once an aural tuner. Had great training and worked in critically examined environment for years. Scored 100 on the tests, etc. Arthritis was the initial reason for trying a SAT, and I am a better tuner with a SAT and my ears than I ever was with just my ears. >> I trained one client to tune aurally in one Sat. afternoon. Then you are a magician. I defy anyone to demonstrate an acceptable tuning ability with one afternoon's training. >>Yet for years, admittedly, RCT tuned Hamilton Consoles better than me. It takes work to get good at aural tuning, and it is harder. Why climb Everest when you can climb Mount Mitchell? Is the easy way the right way? If you want your way to be more impressive, tune aurally. << It has been a long time since I was impressed by an aural tuner. There were a number of incredible tuners in Boston in 1975, and I heard them (Cody, Garlick, Betts). Haven't seen that level of expertise out in the field since. When I graduated from school, came to Nashville to set up shop, it only took one recording session to end another aural tuner's career here. He was regarded as the best, but he was selling slop, and no one knew it. And if my results don't impress, my customers don't give a rat's rear about how I did it. And if an ETD is tuning a console better than ears alone, those ears must be hopelessly lost, since the machines I have seen do a poor job on small pianos. Big, well-scaled instruments can be tuned by ETD to a standard rarely matched by aural tuners, but the small pianos require an educated and practiced ear to make the unavoidable compromises. If one can't out tune an ETD on a spinet, I would suggest a couple more Saturday afternoons. Regards, Ed Foote RPT http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html

Dear Ed Foote,

No one wants to be a scapegoat. No one wants to be a martyr. No one. If I may take a Segway here, everybody thinks they want to be a martyr, until it is time to be a martyr. Not me. Tell me of one Pastor, Prelate, or Priest in the US who is one. Every single one I ever encountered, is a victor, not a victim. So take some advice from a greater authority. Fred Sturm recommended the following to you, i.e., Ed Foote:

"Jorgensen postulated a "Victorian ear" that some how or other could recognize and produce key color. In fact, almost everybody tuned by fifths, and presumably made errors despite their best efforts. Take a somewhat rough temperament of whatever flavor, produced through a chain of fifths, and refine it using your ear, sensitized from years of tuning refined UETs. Do it intuitively. Play chords and make adjustments. This is a serious challenge I am giving you. Put away your SAT and try it. Then come back and argue with me about how people might have tuned."
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Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-17-2013 09:57
From: Edward Foote
Subject: Different perspective was Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

I don't know what is changing my mail, but the last post was not what I
sent. I am reposting, hopefully it will show up as I sent it!


Greetings,
There is another, perhaps parallel universe, somewhere. I
haven't a clue what could have created such a victimhood perspective!
To wit:

Funny, because that was in the first line before I edited "I'm joking." Yes, I am joking. What I suggest as a proposition indicates it is not that important to me. Also edited something about feeling funny using narcissistic statements in first person. Perhaps I will limit myself to scholarspeak in the future.

But about the possibility of a proposition to forbid any guild member from requiring an RPT to do either? Absolutely not. Yet the only way you could do that is require an aural test on the exam, which admittedly, could be conceived as hypocritical. Like has been admitted, tuning with ETD's, like it or not, is just easier.

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Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
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On 5/18/2013 12:17 AM, Cy Shuster wrote: > > > You've gotta try it to believe it. You don't have to believe it, or even try it. It's science, and works just fine. Ron N

Sometimes, science isn't enough to get through life, regardless of what some individuals proclaim.
There are other avenues to determine what is so, and what is not.
What determines the course of action for some is what that someone chooses to believe is so, or not.

What works isn't solely determined on science alone. There are other realities that science knows nothing about.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-18-2013 11:27
From: Ronald Nossaman
... You don't have to believe it, or even try it. It's science, and works just fine. ...

"What works isn't solely determined on science alone. There are other realities that science knows nothing about.
Keith McGavern, RPT"

Umm, yeah, but those "other 'realities' " don't have much to do with pianos' reaction to major pitch changes, whether aurally or ETD (or hybrid of the two) achieved. 
At least in my world, YMMV.
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Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690
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I accept what you say, Patrick, according to your understanding as to what you experience, at least in your world, but that doesn't mean it's so in the world I experience, or anybody else's for that matter.

There are things that take place from time to time that defy understanding. To understand those things become speculation at best from where one sits.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-18-2013 13:38
From: Patrick Draine
... Umm, yeah, but those "other 'realities' " don't have much to do with pianos' reaction to major pitch changes, whether aurally or ETD (or hybrid of the two) achieved.  At least in my world, YMMV. ...

And to further, Patrick, what I am attempting to say, I value all input from all persons, but don't necessarily buy into the validity from those persons, regardless of their status that is sometimes proclaimed by others, and even by those very same persons themselves.

All to often I have decided down the road after reviewing previous information, and attempting to decipher what has been proclaimed as so by some individuals that say is so, and I find out later, its not.

So, I expect others to do the same for what I say, or actually do say, and find out the truth for themselves.

Good luck to all in deciding what is, and what is not.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-18-2013 13:50
From: Keith McGavern
Subject: Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

I accept what you say, Patrick, according to your understanding as to what you experience, at least in your world, but that doesn't mean it's so in the world I experience, or anybody else's for that matter.

There are things that take place from time to time that defy understanding. To understand those things become speculation at best from where one sits.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-18-2013 13:38
From: Patrick Draine
... Umm, yeah, but those "other 'realities' " don't have much to do with pianos' reaction to major pitch changes, whether aurally or ETD (or hybrid of the two) achieved.  At least in my world, YMMV. ...