Pianotech

Expand all | Collapse all

Traveling shanks

  • 1.  Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-23-2015 23:33
    Bradley said in another thread on Pianotech, RE: Customer Complaints
    "... I don't use paper when traveling shanks. ..."

    Sometimes, Bradley, not everyone bothers to read others approach with regards to piano regulation,

    And, sorry to say, I don't recall what your standpoint was on the matter.

    Please share again at your convenience what you did say about how you travel shanks without paper.


    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    -------------------------------------------

    Original Message:
    Sent: 03-23-2015 23:10
    From: Bradley Snook
    ...  I thought I made my standpoint on the matter very clear: I don't use paper when traveling shanks. 




  • 2.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-24-2015 02:13
    I really enjoy traveling and this topic: I am happy to go into detail about why I do what I do now and why I no longer do what I did then. As they say: let's parle...

    I don't want to put the piano's parts in my mouth, with dirty fingers, and screw that into the action cavity. It's my choice: I don't think my spit and other people's pianos should so casually mix. That is my main reason for not using travel paper. However, I also believe that the moisture temporary expands the paper producing an erroneous travel result (i.e., the spit drys = the parts settle). I also believe that the paper is more compressible and reactive to changes in RH--which introduces additional and necessary variables into the system that work contrary to a consistent stability across the entire piano. But, mainly, I just don't want to salivate on someone else's piano--I find the practice a bit barbaric. 

    I'd like to point out that the squaring of the flanges is so very IMPORTANT. Before any traveling adjustment are made, the part need to be checked and rechecked to ensure that it is squared...then rechecked once more (i.e., since the action of screwing a part tends to unsquare the flange). Constant vigilance with squaring and resquaring is an absolute necessity. Way too often--in my experience/observations--technicians travel when they should have resquared!!! I never travel until I have confirmed that squaring does not solve the problem. Square first, travel second--never, ever, the other way around.

    If a travel adjustment is necessary, I make the adjustment to the wood. With flat flanges, I do this with either a hammer file or a scraper/razor. For the profiled flanges: I use a rounded file and carbon paper (i.e., to know exactly where the correction needs to be made). I prefer to work with flat flanges and a vertical relocation pin. <-----but, that's just me.

    The profiled flanges (aka S&S) are a different approach entirely. Hornbeam, IMHO, is not necessarily the best approach because that wood is very hard. The softer OEM flanges are easier to self-mate to the rail, which means the traveling is done with HOW the parts are screwed onto the rail. This needs to be done mindfully, so that paper or filing is not as necessary.


  • 3.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-24-2015 04:11
    I suppose scraping would be possible for traveling. Paper just takes less time, and is reversible. I think having the paper soft from being slightly damp actually helps it shape to the rail, and the screw compresses it tightly enough. One can also scrape the paper if a finer adjustment is needed. I got that idea from Pris Rappaport, and it was sort of a palm-forehead moment. Since traveling is a progressive activity -- do the worst ones, do the less bad ones, refine. Then go over the whole thing looking for strays -- there is plenty of time for any dampness to disappear before the whole task is complete.

    At least if you scrape the flanges, you will never be guilty of papering the rail instead of the flange, or of the factory scurvy trick of putting in the traveling paper or card with no glue, so it flies off when the parts are removed.

    You do not sound like a fan of spit, the universal solvent.

    -------------------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

    -------------------------------------------




  • 4.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-24-2015 09:03
    I don't use the spit actuated papers. I take the flanges off, often repeatedly, and use either razor cut strips of masking tape, or as I got from Ed Mcmorrow, aluminum dust sealing tape. This is not "duct tape", ie the thick grey cloth tape that binds the universe together, but rather a .004" aluminum foil with an adhesive backing.

    I like the aluminyum on flat rails, but I don't like the aluminum tape on WNG's new striated hammer rail extrusion..actually I don't like WNG's rail striations at all. The aluminum settles into the grooves the striations create, and creates a mushy interface. Even without the aluminum tape, the striations also commit the alignment of the flange too early in the process, and then the grooves indented into the flange/traveling tape, has to be worked against for final hammer/string alignment...the flange tends to remember the original striation caused indentations, until one forces the flange to stay put, and make some new indentations.

    On all flat rails, I remove the action, and loosen/tighten flange screws to align hammers, as using a pivot tool from outside the action cavity mucks with the traveling, and just returns to the previous alignment anyway, in short order. 

    In terms of flange stability, if you are being really picky about traveling, the composite parts have a huge advantage in terms of stability and compression. Also, their being mounted to a machine threaded non-hydroscopic extrusion or piece of steel (like chickerings) does wonders for long term stability. 

    On wooden  parts, especially S&S profiled copes, profiles change in odd ways with migrating ambient moisture and EMC caused profile compression. This blows away hard-won traveling. As a sash maker from years past, I have taken cope and pattern joints (S&S flange profile is called a "cope", and the rail profile is called a "pattern"), even in genuine old growth quarter-sawn Mahogany, fit the joint to a near perfect water-tight fit, and then left the parts unassembeled or unglued for a couple of months.  After going through moisture cycling, the perviously water-tight can be pretty amazingly poor fitting in just a few months in the shop's ambient conditions. Add this  to the compression imposed by moisture cycling of the wooden profiled flange and the wooden dowel in the brass rail, and point loads where the flange meets the brass rail will be forced to compress in an unintended fashion...requiring re-traveling... Rails felts hep control this a little, but then add their own inconsistencies to the mix...complete pain in the arss in my opinion. Composite flanges bypass this uncontrollable annoyance. 
    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------

    ----




  • 5.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-24-2015 12:53
    Jim -

    A couple of observations,
    I don't use the spit actuated papers
    Just to be clear, your reason for doing so is not related to concerns on the micro-biological level.  If so, you could simply use a water-dampened sponge, like what used to be the norm for putting stamps on mass mailing.  I don't think you actually state, specifically why you don't use the 'spit', or what I assume is paper 'packing' tape.  

    I also don't think you indicated whether you would use the aluminum tape for S&S.  It sounds like a much better solution than masking tape, at least the standard stuff - which seems to dissolve into goop over not all that long a time.  I don't have any FROG (fraud?) tape to compare, but I'd be more inclined to try that, but I'm intrigued by the aluminum stuff for its thinner profile (than my usual packing tape option)

    My measurements with a Mititoyo dial caliper:
    packing tape = .005+" dry; .005" wetted
    regular masking tape = .004"
    Frog tape = ?

    With regard to WNG: allowing for my somewhat limited, but also intensive experience with the parts, one of the most frustrating aspects was the inability of any adhesive to, well, adhere.  The action I worked on had their signature black traveling material that did not even attempt to be adhesive.

    Otherwise, if limiting the discussion to wooden parts, we seem left to dealing with a certain amount of constant change.


    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 6.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-24-2015 13:11
    My reference to the spit version of papers has nothing to do with spit or moisture. Rather, I greatly prefer the control I have when removing the flange to paper it where I can control where I put the paper, rather than slipping the paper under the insitu flange. Maybe I'm just a klutz, but I find the slipping-the-paper-in version of applying paper frustrating and doesn't save me any time in the end.

    Aluminum for S&S, aka Ed Mcmorrow's advice. Only one layer though. I think there is a thicker aluminum tape, for instances where 2 layers is required, but I don't have any here.

    On the WNG paper...I never have used it. I prefer high quality masking tape. It adheres fine. I have not experienced the masking tape goo you speak of.

    <Otherwise, if limiting the discussion to wooden parts, we seem left to dealing with a certain amount of constant change.

    That's my take on it as well...the nature of the materials is the nature of the materials.
    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-24-2015 15:43
    I've always used masking tape, without a lick of problems.

    Ron N




  • 8.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-07-2015 07:17

    Being one who hates to throw (anything of use) away, my go-to traveling material are my unused mailing labels. I cut them into 1/8" strips and they are very easy to work with. They seem to hold up very well with time and traveling remains stable over time. 
    -------------------------------------------
    Tom Servinsky
    -------------------------------------------




  • 9.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-24-2015 14:39
    Yes, a stamp sponge, which of course is now obsolete technology, would work fine. For now extinct stuff, I find that Ebay can usually provide.

    I don't trust the self-stick materials because the adhesive always seems to fail in a fairly short length of time, so when a part is removed the paper wouldn't stay stuck to it.

    I've tried finding old gummed paper of different thicknesses. Unfortunately, while I found two gummed paper items (Ebay again) of just the right thicikness, the gum wasn't sticky anymore. I've thought of taking a firm but thin paper and treating it with mucilage. Even mucilage is now pretty hard to find, though.

    I used to use brown packing tape for thicker, and stamp paper (margins of postage stamp sheets) for medium-thin. Alas, stamps aren't licked anymore either. I imagine that the most practical approach to getting thinner travel paper is probably to go to Ebay and try to find old gummed labels, the kind which were white with a red margin, and which were in small cardboard boxes. Even there, it is hard to be sure it's water-activated glue, because they changed to self-adhesive.

    -------------------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

    -------------------------------------------




  • 10.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-05-2015 16:24
    I've always used brown paper packing tape (self adhesive, no wetting required) and have never had failure in some several decades. In fact it's damn hard to get off when you want to after it's been there a while, but it does come off clean which the wetted type doesn't. Seems to be about the right thickness.  I lay out a long (8"strip on a hard polyethylene sheet that I use for a hammer filing platform) and then slice it lengthwise into 1/16" strips (+/-).  That's several actions worth of traveling and the poly platform keeps it in place until I need it.  

    Space the flanges/shanks as well as possible by eye and then travel them by raising the side of the flange to which they travel (grand piano).  I've never seen a reason to get more complicated than that with various axis of rotation and still don't.  Of course the Steinway rail configuration is unique and offers other opportunities to over think things or mess things up, I suppose.  The only caution on those rails would be strips that overhang the front or the back of the rail only and can rotate the flange when it's unwanted.  So uniform length and coverage of the paper is important.  

    One does occasionally get s/f assemblies that are poorly assembled and so out of square that you need someone from Cirque de Soleil get them to travel correctly.  I usually toss those and use one of the extras in the box.  Some manufacturers are better than others at avoiding that kind of sloppiness.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320



  • 11.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-24-2015 13:44
    Thanks for this interesting information, Jim.

    What you say about the "cope" and the "pattern" makes sense of a 1920's Steinway M (original parts) which I recently started freshening up. The traveling was atrocious! Yet I had no feeling that anyone had done anything to it, and surely it did not leave the factory in that condition.

    My customer loved watching the traveling process, as it went from horrid to better to better yet to quite good.  From what you say, Jim, one should expect to tweak the traveling every few years, probably at the time of a light hammer shaping, and there are worse things in life than a little quiet hand work on a pleasing instrument.

    The amazing thing about this piano, and very lucky for its new owner, is that the original hammer flanges are showing quite a reasonable friction, despite worn knuckles and hammers. It seems that in this particular instrument the verdigris and the wear have canceled out almost exactly. In due course it's going to get new hammers, shanks, and flanges, and also new wippen flanges. Luckily no one has lubricated it, so the rest of the centers should be all right, though I'll repin to spec any which are outside it.

    A pleasure to work on the old stuff, those beautifully built parts, and not have to take them off and throw them in the trash or remove the metal and consign them to the masonry stove..

    -------------------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

    -------------------------------------------




  • 12.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-24-2015 15:53
    > What you say about the "cope" and the "pattern" makes sense of a
    > 1920's Steinway M (original parts) which I recently started
    > freshening up. The traveling was atrocious! Yet I had no feeling that
    > anyone had done anything to it, and surely it did not leave the
    > factory in that condition.

    Why would you think that? During one of Steinway's week long seminars
    way back when, we were told that the hammers were spaced visually at
    rest, then traveled to hit the strings at the proper spot. No attention
    was payed to traveling either vertically, or parallel to the neighbor.
    The visual spacing at rest was what was important.

    I always thought we should do better than that, regardless of the
    factory priorities.

    Ron N




  • 13.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-24-2015 16:07
    Since there are many Lowes out there, I will pass on that I found the following on Lowes website and at my local store:

    3M Metal Repair foil tape 3381   about .004 in thickness, 1.88" x 50 yards

    I recently bought some 3M vinyl fine line painting tape from an auto paint store.  It is 1/8" wide, about .004 in thickness, and about 30 yards long, with an adhesive backing.  It seems the perfect width for traveling, and it sticks quite nicely to the rail or flange, conforming to the outline of either.  You only have to cut it to length.  I have not used it yet other than to experiment, but I will be traveling the rails of a Steinway D with WNG whips and shanks in the next couple of days.  It is promising and you don't have to cut it to width as you would with the aluminum tapes.

    I have used the masking tape method for more years than I can count.  Lay it on a board, cut to width using a small square.  I'll stack 2 layers together before cutting for the ones you know will need more.

    While I am here, what tapes or other materials are others using for shimming to set the action spread on non-adjustable rails like a Steinway?

    -------------------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    -------------------------------------------




  • 14.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-24-2015 16:20
    <While I am here, what tapes or other materials are others using for shimming to set the action spread on non-adjustable rails like a Steinway?

    2x4's....he,he...just kidding. I try to limit it to 1x4's...quarter-sawn, of course...<G>

    I move the rail...shimming for spread is for the birds, in my opinion.
    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-24-2015 16:24
    > I have used the masking tape method for more years than I can count.
    > Lay it on a board, cut to width using a small square. I'll stack 2
    > layers together before cutting for the ones you know will need more.

    I know someone who uses typing correction tape. People always cite the
    deterioration of PSA of any sort as a reason to not use tape, but I
    haven't found old tape falling off, or out, even in the unlikely event I
    have reason to remove the flange.

    For shimming rails? Something like manilla folders, or some other hard
    card stock.

    Ron N




  • 16.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-24-2015 21:37
    For action spread, I use 32o grit J weight paper from Klingspor. 6" rolls. For double thickness, glue the paper sides together in whatever length you like. Cut into strips.

    -------------------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 17.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-25-2015 05:54
    Thanks, Ron and Jon.  I have been looking for a source of paper or card in graduated thicknesses for this purpose.  I wish we could get the sheets that rail punchings are made with, for example. I seem to be able to think of other uses for them as shims also. 

    -------------------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    -------------------------------------------




  • 18.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Member
    Posted 03-25-2015 08:00
    Sure would be nice to be able to get the graduated thickness in sheet form from our suppliers.  Seems I've spent quite some time wandering the shop and house with a thickness gauge and have used everything from tissue paper to magazine pages to card stock to old photos for various shim purposes!

    Deb

    -------------------------------------------
    Debra Legg
    Rockport MA
    www.debraleggpiano.com
    -------------------------------------------




  • 19.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-25-2015 11:57
    Deb, Will,
    Check with printers and paper supply houses. Paper manufacturers
    regularly distribute sample books of their products, and these folks may
    have a few extras about or can get you some. Weights range from tissue
    to heavy poster board.
    Ron N




  • 20.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-25-2015 12:12
    Thanks, Ron.  I think I am going to check with Schaff and Pianotek first.  If Schaff makes their own punchings, then they likely are making them from sheets of the various thicknesses.  If so, it wouldn't be hard to sell us some.

    -------------------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    -------------------------------------------




  • 21.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-25-2015 12:17
    You might check a hobby store for artist's mat board. Nice dense, uniform.

    -------------------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

    -------------------------------------------




  • 22.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-25-2015 12:19
    I just called Schaff.  No cigar. 

    -------------------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    -------------------------------------------




  • 23.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Member
    Posted 03-26-2015 13:38
    I bought a roll of very narrow masking tape 1/8" x 60 yds made by PEARL  number 795 - creped paper backing, resists water, solvents and oils- high tack; engineered for good adhesion to diverse surfaces. It came from either Schaff or Pianotek.
    I would imagine some of the striping tape used for auto body work would work well.
    Most of the stuff with preapplied glue seems to fail due to the high humidity here but I purchased a bottle with a sponge tip that can be used to wet the glue. It is important to trim off any paper left hanging out after the flange is tightened. Ask me how I know.
    I had a client that complained about buzzing in the action. After listening from various positions I discovered the problem. Long lengths of travelling paper had been left sticking out from under hammer flanges. When the right frequency was played there was sympathetic vibration of the papers- I kid you not. Piano was a large Feurich Grand.








    -------------------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    -------------------------------------------




  • 24.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-27-2015 09:26
    Jim,

    Finally after 20 some opinions you seem to have an answer that sticks.
    Great to read an adhesive answer.
    It is self evident that you broke through the tape at the finish line in first place.
    Following this paper trail can be a road less traveled  but in the final flange out your solution seems to be paper smooth.
    We'll read about your solution in the paper tomorrow. Hopefully not in the funny papers.

    Thanks,
    Bob
    -------------------------------------------
    Robert Highfield
    Lancaster PA
    -------------------------------------------




  • 25.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Member
    Posted 03-27-2015 10:37
     Very clever. The only problem is leaving the tape in a hot car or in the sun. I have several plastic ammo boxes that are good at keeping tapes and glue from getting damaged. After all, traveling tape was made to travel.

    -------------------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    -------------------------------------------




  • 26.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-28-2015 14:46
    Have sticky paper, will travel.

    The brown package tape you wet stays good indefinitely, except in extremely humid conditions, which I guess might be an issue for you.

    -------------------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

    -------------------------------------------




  • 27.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-28-2015 18:17
    I second that.
    I was put onto it by Roger Jolly, who has given quite a few good pointers at Conventions over the years.

    -------------------------------------------
    John M. Ross
    Ross Piano Service
    Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
    jrpiano@bellaliant.net
    -------------------------------------------




  • 28.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-29-2015 08:24
    We have used this brown paper tape, that used to be used for parcel post brown paper wrapping, for nearly 40 years. It can be easily cut to size, applied and removed without leaving much of an adhesive residue. We apply it to the flange not the rail. It can be applied this way without removing the entire screw and flange. I purchased a roll of it for less than ten dollars nearly forty years ago and am about half way through it. I hope I live to use the rest of it. Laroy Edwards demonstrated (at LRSH) how to make a handy travel (pardon the pun) supply by using a piece about 6 to 8 inches long and folding it over in half and wetting (to activate the glue) about a half inch of the glued side then sticking the ends together leaving the rest without adhesion. Then folded strips are cut about an eighth of an inch wide. Break one end of one strip at the already glued "handle" and you're ready to insert. Activate the glue as needed with damp paper towel or just lick it! Keeping the roll in a large plastic bag with a small silica gel has kept it from getting stuck to itself and a small baggie works for the tool box "traveling" paper.

    -------------------------------------------
    Chris Solliday
    Easton PA
    610-438-1051
    -------------------------------------------




  • 29.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-29-2015 09:03
    I routinely remove flanges when traveling shanks, just in case there is paper that could be removed from the side opposite the side that appears to need paper (so as not to elevate the center pin by having paper on both side of the flange screw). Also--and I do not recall where I learned this, but it is not my own bright idea--an electric letter opener will make a pile of eighth-inch strips out of a piece of brown packing tape before you can say, "Bob's your uncle" (does anyone know why they say that?).

    -------------------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    -------------------------------------------




  • 30.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-29-2015 09:54
    Hi, Alan,

    According to Wikipedia,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob's_your_uncle

    it means:

    "..And Bob's your uncle is an expression of unknown origin, commonly
    used in Britain and Commonwealth nations. Typically, someone says it to
    conclude a set of simple instructions, similar to the French expression
    "et voilà !"."

    Kind regards.

    Horace




    On 3/29/2015 6:02 AM, Alan Eder via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
    >
    > I routinely remove flanges when traveling shanks, just in case there is paper that could be removed from the side opposite the side that appears to need paper (so as not to elevate the center pin by having paper on both side of the flange screw). Also--and I do not recall where I learned this, but it is not my own bright idea--an electric letter opener will make a pile of eighth-inch strips out of a piece of brown packing tape before you can say, "Bob's your uncle" (does anyone know why they say that?).
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Alan Eder, RPT
    > Herb Alpert School of Music
    > California Institute of the Arts
    > Valencia, CA
    > 661.904.6483
    > -------------------------------------------
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 03-29-2015 08:23
    > From: Chris Solliday
    > Subject: Traveling shanks
    >
    > We have used this brown paper tape, that used to be used for parcel post brown paper wrapping, for nearly 40 years. It can be easily cut to size, applied and removed without leaving much of an adhesive residue. We apply it to the flange not the rail. It can be applied this way without removing the entire screw and flange. I purchased a roll of it for less than ten dollars nearly forty years ago and am about half way through it. I hope I live to use the rest of it. Laroy Edwards demonstrated (at LRSH) how to make a handy travel (pardon the pun) supply by using a piece about 6 to 8 inches long and folding it over in half and wetting (to activate the glue) about a half inch of the glued side then sticking the ends together leaving the rest without adhesion. Then folded strips are cut about an eighth of an inch wide. Break one end of one strip at the already glued "handle" and you're ready to insert. Activate the glue as needed with damp paper towel or just lick it! Keeping the roll in
    > a large plastic bag with a small silica gel has kept it from getting stuck to itself and a small baggie works for the tool box "traveling" paper.
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Chris Solliday
    > Easton PA
    > 610-438-1051
    > -------------------------------------------
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 03-28-2015 14:46
    > From: Susan Kline
    > Subject: Traveling shanks
    >
    > Have sticky paper, will travel.
    >
    > The brown package tape you wet stays good indefinitely, except in extremely humid conditions, which I guess might be an issue for you.
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Susan Kline
    > Philomath, Oregon
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 03-27-2015 10:36
    > From: James Kelly
    > Subject: Traveling shanks
    >
    > Very clever. The only problem is leaving the tape in a hot car or in the sun. I have several plastic ammo boxes that are good at keeping tapes and glue from getting damaged. After all, traveling tape was made to travel.
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > James Kelly
    > Pawleys Island SC
    > 843-325-4357
    > -------------------------------------------
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 03-27-2015 09:25
    > From: Robert Highfield
    > Subject: Traveling shanks
    >
    > Jim,
    >
    > Finally after 20 some opinions you seem to have an answer that sticks.
    > Great to read an adhesive answer.
    > It is self evident that you broke through the tape at the finish line in first place.
    > Following this paper trail can be a road less traveled but in the final flange out your solution seems to be paper smooth.
    > We'll read about your solution in the paper tomorrow. Hopefully not in the funny papers.
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Bob
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Robert Highfield
    > Lancaster PA
    > -------------------------------------------
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 03-26-2015 13:37
    > From: James Kelly
    > Subject: Traveling shanks
    >
    > I bought a roll of very narrow masking tape 1/8" x 60 yds made by PEARL number 795 - creped paper backing, resists water, solvents and oils- high tack; engineered for good adhesion to diverse surfaces. It came from either Schaff or Pianotek.
    > I would imagine some of the striping tape used for auto body work would work well.
    > Most of the stuff with preapplied glue seems to fail due to the high humidity here but I purchased a bottle with a sponge tip that can be used to wet the glue. It is important to trim off any paper left hanging out after the flange is tightened. Ask me how I know.
    > I had a client that complained about buzzing in the action. After listening from various positions I discovered the problem. Long lengths of travelling paper had been left sticking out from under hammer flanges. When the right frequency was played there was sympathetic vibration of the papers- I kid you not. Piano was a large Feurich Grand.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > James Kelly
    > Pawleys Island SC
    > 843-325-4357
    > -------------------------------------------
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 03-25-2015 12:19
    > From: William Truitt
    > Subject: Traveling shanks
    >
    > I just called Schaff. No cigar.
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > William Truitt
    > Bridgewater NH
    > 603-744-2277
    > -------------------------------------------
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 03-25-2015 12:17
    > From: Susan Kline
    > Subject: Traveling shanks
    >
    > You might check a hobby store for artist's mat board. Nice dense, uniform.
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Susan Kline
    > Philomath, Oregon
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 03-25-2015 12:11
    > From: William Truitt
    > Subject: Traveling shanks
    >
    > Thanks, Ron. I think I am going to check with Schaff and Pianotek first. If Schaff makes their own punchings, then they likely are making them from sheets of the various thicknesses. If so, it wouldn't be hard to sell us some.
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > William Truitt
    > Bridgewater NH
    > 603-744-2277
    > -------------------------------------------
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 03-25-2015 11:57
    > From: Ronald Nossaman
    > Subject: Traveling shanks
    >
    > Deb, Will,
    > Check with printers and paper supply houses. Paper manufacturers
    > regularly distribute sample books of their products, and these folks may
    > have a few extras about or can get you some. Weights range from tissue
    > to heavy poster board.
    > Ron N
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Reply to Sender : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&SenderKey=2bcc950a-bfcf-400e-8f5d-ab14732ae620&MID=646984&MDATE=756%253a45847%253e&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >
    > Reply to Discussion : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&MID=646984&MDATE=756%253a45847%253e&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >
    >
    >
    > You are subscribed to "Pianotech" as A442@sonic.net. To change your subscriptions, go to http://my.ptg.org/preferences?section=Subscriptions&MDATE=756%253a45847%253e&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved. To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to http://my.ptg.org/HigherLogic/eGroups/Unsubscribe.aspx?UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved&GroupKey=2bb4ebe8-4dba-4640-ae67-111903beaddf.




  • 31.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-29-2015 09:58
    Or...from that bastion of credibility...the Urban Dictionary...

    "It's a catch phrase dating back to 1887, when, in a blatant case of favoritism, British Prime Minister Robert Cecil (a.k.a. Lord Salisbury) decided to appoint his nephew Arthur Balfour to the prestigious and sensitive post of Chief Secretary for Ireland.

    So "Bob's your uncle" is another way of saying "your success is guaranteed."

    I was hoping for something a bit more racy than that...oh well

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-29-2015 12:42
    That is way cool. "Bob's your uncle" did have a faintly Cockney ring to it. Thanks, Jim and Horace.

    As for sticky paper, it would save time to put the strip under without removing the screw, but an astonishing number of times I find that there is a paper sending the travel in the wrong direction. I assume conditions have changed, not that someone was really stupid.

    Ted Sambell taught us early on that the paper always goes on the flange, not the rail.

    On Amazon I found a pair of scissors with five blades which are a nice travel-strip-worth of distance apart. I take a piece of brown sticky paper about twice the desired length, which the scissors can cut through in one stroke, and end up with long strips, mostly the same width. However, one can make thinner and thicker strips (a few) by where one puts the edge of the scissors. It is easy to handle the longer strips. Lick one end, put it on the flange, pinch off the rest. The smaller pieces are handy for cross-papering Steinway flanges to space them.

    I keep these sticky paper long strips in a small plastic jar in the kit. The pinched off parts and the little bits can go in the open lid, easy to pick up.

    I did (finally) notice something when replacing Steinway wippen flanges (for verdigris abatement.) For hammers, a full strip on one side will change the travel, and to change the spacing one has to use the half-papers on diagonal corners. But, for wippens (think it out), the full strip on one side will shift the spacing, but half-papering will travel them. Ninety degrees difference in how they are mounted.

    By the way, I used to fret over how to get brown package tape without the fiberglass reinforcing, after stores stopped selling it. Ebay -- infinite quantities of it, very reasonable prices. One roll, I imagine, would last decades even for someone almighty fond of "traveling."

    -------------------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

    -------------------------------------------




  • 33.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-29-2015 13:06
    Jim,

    I tried to find "Bob's your uncle" in the Urban Dictionary under Bob and uncle. Couldn't find.

    Did you make that up? If so, ingenious!

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA



  • 34.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-29-2015 13:29
    Keith, I went to Urban Dictionary and typed in "and Bob's your uncle" and got some "we don't know where it came from" definitions. But when I typed in "Bob's your uncle" I got three, and one of them was the good one.

    -------------------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

    -------------------------------------------




  • 35.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-29-2015 13:41
    Got it, Susan. I didn't scroll down far enough. Yahoo!

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA



  • 36.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-29-2015 13:51
    yeah...if I had made it up, it would have been seriously over the top...that one was pretty tame.

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------

    ------


  • 37.  RE:Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-30-2015 08:26
    I wanna hwar the over-the-top version.

    -------------------------------------------
    Ron Bergeron
    Austin, Texas
    -------------------------------------------





  • 38.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-30-2015 10:27
    My wise-ass version will have to wait.  There was a fire in the shop yesterday and I'm not quite sure what end is up, temporarily.  Fire inside the belly of an almost completed, lovely Chickering 106. The piano is a charred hulk...heavy smoke damage to the entire building...sigh

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------

    -



  • 39.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Member
    Posted 03-30-2015 10:48
    Oh no.  Hope everything sorts out quickly and insurance folks are cooperative. 
    Deb

    -------------------------------------------
    Debra Legg
    Rockport MA
    www.debraleggpiano.com
    -------------------------------------------




  • 40.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-30-2015 11:53
    What dreadful news. Condolences. Any idea yet how it started?

    -------------------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

    -------------------------------------------




  • 41.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-30-2015 15:36
    Condolences. After 40+ years, I managed to start a fire in my shop
    (undetected until much later). Everything hanging from the ceiling, or
    on a high shelf was melted, including all my clamp handles, saws, belt
    sanders, drills, jigs, and tool boxes of hole saws, planer, etc, etc.
    This was in December, and I'm still not back together. No pianos lost,
    but it took the finish off of some case parts and damper heads stored
    overhead. I'm currently making hammer handles, and removing rust from
    everything steel or iron that was in there. The fire was out by the time
    the fire department got there, but they did at least $5K worth of
    additional damage with a water hose and their handy sheet rock buster.

    There's another couple of months worth of reclamation projects out in
    the PODS awaiting the electrician to do his thing so we can replace the
    ceilings, rebuild the cabinets, and start moving stuff back in.

    The insurance people are, as always, -- different from the real problems.
    Ron N




  • 42.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-30-2015 15:47
    Cripes!...you too!...it must be all the rage. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    --


  • 43.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-30-2015 16:00
    A hot item, apparently. I don't recommend it.
    Ron N




  • 44.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-30-2015 17:46
    Oh no!  Let us know what you learn and what you need.  Ruth

    -------------------------------------------
    Ruth Zeiner
    ruth@alliedpiano.com
    -------------------------------------------




  • 45.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-30-2015 12:19
    I do the same thing, Alan. After complaining to myself for years about finding paper on both sides of S&S grand flanges, I saw a ray of hope: when I visited the S&S factory after the PTG convention in Providence I was gratified to see someone removing flanges to paper them.
    BTW, I know of a few people to whom "Bob's your uncle" applies.

    Bob

    -------------------------------------------
    Robert Anderson
    Tucson AZ
    520-326-4048
    -------------------------------------------




  • 46.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 03-31-2015 21:05
    Yes: wood parts are an annoyance. However, wood flanges are self-mating when screwed in mindfully--they are also self-traveling (i.e., by moving the flange to the L/R extremes and compressing the wood on one side). Which means: there is less unscrewing of the flange to travel with paper/tape/wood-removal.

    Frankly, I think this method of traveling is one of the main benefits of continuing to use the S&S action rail (i.e., it's flexibility). There are good reasons for such a seemingly unstable design platform...traveling with a wooden flange is one of them. I know, it is a pain, but--I think--it is for the greater good of the piano's action. 

    When I remove wood [or add material], I do so in quadrants (i.e., I don't paper/remove any two quadrants at a time, unless specifically necessary). Actually, I use four areas on the flange to travel and four areas on the flange to space = 8 separate areas (i.e., in the case of the S&S rail system; the flat flange only has four areas = none for spacing).

    Does everyone recognise these 8 areas on the S&S style flanges independently (i.e., instead of traveling all of the left side or all of the right side)?






  • 47.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-01-2015 02:02

    wood flanges are self-mating when screwed in mindfully
    What does this  mean?

    they are also self-traveling (i.e., by moving the flange to the L/R extremes and compressing the wood on one side)
    Unclear to me. What is the plane of movement, and what is the compression that is being effected?

    less unscrewing of the flange to travel with paper/tape/wood-removal.
    Considering what lengths have been gone to (previously) with regard to pinning, the traveling process doesn't seem all that odious. 

    the greater good of the piano's action. 
    ?

    When I remove wood [or add material], I do so in quadrants (i.e., I don't paper/remove any two quadrants at a time, unless specifically necessary). Actually, I use four areas on the flange to travel and four areas on the flange to space = 8 separate areas (i.e., in the case of the S&S rail system; the flat flange only has four areas = none for spacing).

    Does everyone recognise these 8 areas on the S&S style flanges independently (i.e., instead of traveling all of the left side or all of the right side)?

    Possibly a mistake, but: what are these areas? .

    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY

    -------------------------------------------




  • 48.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-01-2015 14:22
    Wood flanges compress when they are screwed-down onto the rail (i.e., S&S). That is what happens in the process; it is a normal and intended part of the process. Technicians that choose to use wooden flanges should be using the fact the wood compresses to their advantage: it saves on the amount of traveling adjustments that need to be made to the bottom side of the flange. If the technician simply screws new parts down on the rail without careful thought/observation, that inattention to detail creates extra [unnecessary] work with paper/wood-removal to re-travel the parts later. This is what it means to work mindfully (i.e., not: randomly tightening the screws without observing the consequences).

    If one spaces the flange to the right, then tightens the screw [thus compressing the wood more on that side], the left side of the flange becomes more compressed compared to the right side. When the flange is recentred under the screw, the shank will now travel more towards the left. The opposite is also true when the flange is spaced to the left. Wood rarely compresses evenly on both sides--even when the flange is centred under the screw--so it is normal to have to slide the flange to the R/L to control the settling process (aka self-mating, self-machining, etc.).

    The best way to visualise what it takes to travel the flanges--and to SEE what is happening at the centrepin line during the adjustments--is the mount a section of flanges to the rails without the shanks. Seeing is believing--it is also key to understanding the process at hand: squaring and traveling is all about how the centrepins align. If you can see the centrepins, you can align them. It is also the very best way--that I know of--to get technicians to understand how different traveling techniques and approaches effect the centrepin line. Control the centrepin line, and you control the travel of hammers.

    Is this part clear?


  • 49.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-03-2015 09:14
    Yes, I think it's clear, however, I would prefer to refrain from responding until such time as your own response appeared on a day other than April 1.  To be clear, however, I don't find most of what's proposed to be either credible or to warrant displacing more traditional methods.

    While it might be a mistake, I'd be somewhat interested in a response to one of my previous questions:

    BSnook
    Does everyone recognise these 8 areas on the S&S style flanges independently (i.e., instead of traveling all of the left side or all of the right side)?

    DSkolnik
    Possibly a mistake, but: what are these areas? .


    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY

    -------------------------------------------




  • 50.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-03-2015 18:20
    Flanges are positioned left to right for knuckle spacing/clearance.

    -------------------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 51.  RE:Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-03-2015 18:26

    Keeping in mind that older Steinway flange screw holes had no left/right tolerance the way they do now. Spacing on rail was what you had.
    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------





  • 52.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-03-2015 18:31
      |   view attached
    David S., all,

    I have been tossing this around in my mind concerning these 8 areas Bradley mentioned concerning Steinway flanges and his approach. (see Show Original Message)

    Here is what I have deduced as to his approach. See attached image.

    The orange arrows either reflect the areas to travel, and the red arrows reflect the areas to space, or vice versa. Can't quite get it straight in my mind still as to which is which, but it's a beginning to understand at least the 8 areas. that being, 4 areas each side of the flange = 8 separate areas.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA



  • 53.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-03-2015 19:02
    Forgot to mention: Steinway flange image courtesy of everythingforyourpiano.com via Google search

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA



  • 54.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-03-2015 21:06
    Keith, thank you for taking the time to think about what I wrote--your effort is greatly appreciated! I will take a photo of the 8 different areas and post later tonight.

    Travel tip of the day: use carbon paper to see where/how the flange makes contact with the rail. 





  • 55.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-03-2015 22:23
      |   view attached
    Yellow: travels the flange perpendicular to the rail
    Red: rotates/squares the flange counter clockwise to the rail
    Orange: rotates/squares the flange clockwise to the rail






  • 56.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-03-2015 22:39
    Hey...I thought you weren't using WNG parts yet?!! Also the unnamed famous company rep that nailed you to the wall at LSU referenced "plastic parts from China". What WNG part did you use...the backchecks on that one?

    Interesting traveling paper locations...every time I look at these flanges I think of piano technician masochism syndrome(PTMS) 

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------




  • 57.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-04-2015 03:46
    No backchecks: whippens = the statement.

    I don't hesitate trying new things--I'm usually first in line. I've used WNG parts many times in the past; I know first-hand they make great parts. I also think technicians should do what they can to help support this kind of market diversification.

    However, I wish I had a way to adjust WNG shanks to match individual hammer weight. It's not a deal breaker, it's just a choice...sometimes, I choose the WNG parts; however, right now, I am choosing to compensate for the natural variation in the wood by thinning/shaping the shanks instead.



    Random thought of the day:
    I think modern wooden shanks are too stiff for the lighter hammer trend. When thinning shanks, I listen to influence touch: saturating the shank near the maximum tonal output gives the pianist important tactile feedback (i.e., the saturation allows the pianist to FEEL when the upper limit is being approached, BEFORE the consequences of overplaying is HEARD).







  • 58.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-04-2015 08:51
    <I think modern wooden shanks are too stiff for the lighter hammer trend.

    Do you know WNG came out with a less stiff version of the shank?  Its new. last month or so. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------



























  • 59.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-04-2015 09:46
    With respect, Jim - (and you know I mean it) - one of the problems we've had on theses lists for forever is the capacity to wander off the titled topic, perhaps never to return.  Here is a thread which, while nominally initiated with a question from Keith McGavern, was still, primarily based upon a comment, posed by Bradley Snook, two threads removed, intentionally couched in a somewhat provocative manner as:  "    I don't use paper when traveling shanks."

    So, while the 'relative effects of the comparative flexibility of shanks' is entirely relevant to refining our approach to action rebuilding, it deserves its own thread.  The question of 'paper-less' traveling, the exploitation of wood compression, or the merits of '8-point traveling/spacing', deserves its moment of our focus.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 60.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-04-2015 09:52
    mea cupla...kind'a...ok

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------




  • 61.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-04-2015 12:52
    Yes, I did read that WNG introduced a less stiff version of their shanks...thanks. I will try them out next time the opportunity arrises. It is a step in the right direction....

    However, it is also important for technicians to begin debating how and why shank selections should be made (i.e., what exactly should observed and how). Since there is, apparently, not a long history of shank thinning in the USA, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the less stiff versions of the WNG shanks may not become highly sought after. The best way to encourage further innovation is for technicians to have healthy, back-and-forth, dialogues. We all need to try first-hand what other technicians are talking about--it is important that we are able share our own observations with a similar experience. The details of how technicians make their observations matter. <----- this is what needs to be discussed. 

    Again, David Skolnik, I will restate: the best way to understand the different traveling methods is to observe the centrepin line directly (i.e., mount a section of flanges to the rails without the shanks and attempt to align the pins). This is a very straight forward procedure to see what does what in shank traveling. Seeing is believing...so, please, go look.

    When I get a chance, I will post more pictures of traveling combinations and what they do. Please understand: first-hand experience is important to have a meaningful conversation.





  • 62.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-04-2015 04:22
    Without proving it, on my own, I remain skeptical that the opposing quadrants that effect the same basic reorientation of the shank/flange do so independently of one another  In other words, I am not convinced that you will achieve a perceptibly different outcome in the traveling (for example) by applying only one piece of yellow travel paper, as opposed to both front and back of the active side of the flange, or that there would be a difference in spacing of shank by using only one orange (or red) paper as opposed to both (diagonally). I'll try to set up the appropriate experiment. 

    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY

    -------------------------------------------




  • 63.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-04-2015 13:32
    There is a difference in travel when you install a shim one side full length, front half, back half or opposing front-back. Full side for aggressive travel, front half for minor travel, back half for slight travel. Opposing corners to migrate the strike point to hit properly when the rail/flange does not allow the positioning. I find the front the rear overhang of S&S flanges need to be trimmed/filed on opposing corners to force positioning beyond what the design will allow. Fine emory cloth fixed to the rail with double-sided tape helps to grip as well. For this reason I don't let the travel paper go over the edge of the rail, the emory cloth is trimmed flush to the edge too; maximum spacing tolerance allowed without the travel paper/under cloth restricting the flange's rotational positioning..

    -------------------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 64.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-05-2015 09:19
    Well stated Jon. Thank  you. I can't think of a better explanation except maybe one with pictures and video demos. NO, sorry, not me.
    -------------------------------------------
    Chris Solliday
    Easton PA
    610-438-1051
    -------------------------------------------




  • 65.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-05-2015 14:19




    This papering technique pulls both sides of the centrepin (i.e R/L) back towards the direction of the rail--this is an adjustment to the centrepin line. CAUTION: the more layers of paper used, the more the back side of the flange pinches against the side of the rail, pushing the back of the flange more upwards than backwards = the centrepin line drifts more downwards than inwards. This technique can also be used on the opposite side of the rail, with the opposite effects. 


  • 66.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-05-2015 16:18

    Pictured above is an example of how to paper the entire left side of the flange. NOTE: the paper is not extended up around the sides of the profile! One may choose to leave the paper between the two area of travel, or to remove it (i.e., as pictured earlier). It really shouldn't matter: the flange should not touch the rail between the two area of travel (i.e., the bottom of the flange, near the screw, should not contact the top of the rail). 

    Travel tip of the week: on wooden flanges, use carbon paper to see exactly where the flange is making contact with the rail. I like to use this method to see high/low spots on the wood (i.e., so I know exactly what to adjust when compressing or removing wood).




    One can choose to paper the front, the back, or both travel areas on the same side of the flange to make an adjustment--it all depends on the correction that needs to take place, and the existing condition between the contact areas of the rail+flange. It is true, as another poster stated: that there are smaller and larger increments of movement. However, I will caution that there are times where this way of thinking can get complicated (i.e., thinking in terms of hammer travel--instead of considering the orientation of the centrepin plane). I find that the tops of the flanges are a very valuable reference for keeping this orientation in-mind. Modern part quality is generally very good. However, if for some reason the centrepin is not in the same plane as the top of the flange, then I would highly recommend taking the time necessary to correct this inconsistency before the parts are ever installed!!! Being able to reference the top of the flange with a straight edge makes the corrective decisions to the bottom of the flange much easier to figure out. 



  • 67.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-05-2015 17:24


    This is a common approach to traveling an entire side of the flange. If one chooses this approach to travel, there will be less room on the sides to adjust for the squaring of the flange later. Again, too much material in squaring area of the flange begins to tilt the plane of the centrepin up/down more than in/out.

    Using too many layers of papers, in a method like this, also makes repositioning more difficult than is necessary (i.e., the fit on one sided of the flange is pinched, while the other side remains loose).

    I recommend applying the paper like pictured above, then simply trimming the excess material so that it does not extend up around the sides. Hold a razor against the paper, and pull the paper back against the razor to tear it cleanly away (i.e., instead cutting down into it, and also, potentially, the wood).


  • 68.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-05-2015 17:43


    Pictured above is a result I often see when flanges were not removed during the traveling process = the paper often doesn't make it around to the other side. <------that is really important to note!

    For one piece of paper, this may not be the end of the world (i.e., there is an initial gap on the sides of the flange). However, this approach will begin to square the flange clockwise, without any support on the back, opposite side of the flange. This approach does not make for a stable nor an easily repositionable flange--specifically when multiple layers of paper are involved. 


  • 69.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-05-2015 18:33


    Red: raises centrepin line (i.e., both sides: R/L)
    Green: lowers centrepin line (i.e., both sides: R/L)
    Sometimes: both are needed to bring the level the flange into a higher plane.

    A consistent centrepin line is important for a consistent touch response at the key. If the hammers and whippens are not traveling in the same vertical plane, it will easily be felt at the key by the pianist--especially when overweight hammers are used (i.e., it is even more important to ensure consistent centrepin lines when the system is pushed beyond the design constraints).

    I don't know what motivates ya'll to travel your hammers, but I travel for a better touch response at the keyboard.


  • 70.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-06-2015 19:24
    If both the hammer crown and shank are traveling, shim the length of the rail.

    If the crown is traveling but not so much the shank, shim the front half.
    If the crown is somewhat stationary but the shank is traveling, shim the back half; the crown may travel slightly but not veering off as mentioned before. Or is it the other way around... at least this is what I think I remember without the action to verify. Experiment, you'll get the hang of it.

    It's a rotational correction, so you have to pay attention to the motion of the crown and shank (at the glue joint).
    Any paper that overhangs the rail inhibits the hammer spacing (flange rotation); I mentioned this some time last year.

    I never thought of shimming the edges of the flange to secure rotation/hammer spacing. Good idea, I'm using it. I've always depended on the emory cloth to secure the flange, which always tends to revert due to its design. Cursed tubular rails. Give me a flat rail any day...

    -------------------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 71.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-05-2015 15:22


    Squaring the flange to the rail (i.e., clockwise/counter-clockwise rotation around the screw) is accomplished by papering the opposite sides of the flange [diagonally] on the sides of the profile--it is important NOT to paper where the bottom of the flange meets the top of the hammer rail (i.e., this would then cause the part to inadvertently travel). This example demonstrates a clockwise squaring of the flange around the screw. The opposite locations produce a counter clockwise rotation. 

    David Skolnik: I am not convinced that you will achieve a perceptibly different outcome in the traveling (for example) by applying only one piece of yellow travel paper, as opposed to both front and back of the active side of the flange, or that there would be a difference in spacing of shank by using only one orange (or red) paper as opposed to both (diagonally). 

    Indeed, I do not recommend squaring the flange incrementally by using only the front or the the back area: squaring should be done in both locations. If one wants less rotation, shorter lengths are used (i.e., start on the side, and don't go as far inwards towards the centre of the flange). It is important to have paper at both locations so that the flange has a solid contact with the rail. If paper were only applied on the back right area--as it is in this picture--and not on the front left area, it would produce a gap at the front left side--this makes it more difficult [than it needs to be] to reposition the flange in the same location every time the part is removed. 






  • 72.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-05-2015 16:10
    I think I agree, but would ask/clarify:
     - while you say:
    . If paper were only applied on the back right area--as it is in this picture--and not on the front left area...
    it would appear that the paper has, in fact, been applied to both areas, as we agree should be the case
     - very curious to know the type of paper (may have been previously mentioned), as the commonly used adhesive paper does not adhere well (or at all) to WNG parts.
    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 73.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-05-2015 16:59



    Yes, when papering to square the S&S flange, I think that it is important for the flange to make contact with both rails in the direction of the moment. This method of adjustment produces parts that are easier to reposition. Please note, however, that the paper is only in contact with the sides; this paper does not go around so that it is in contact with the top of the hammer rail. <------this is really important distinction.

    I have often seen the consequence of technicians misapply the squaring concept thusly:

    What is pictured above, IMHO, is not a good approach: it introduces instability into the system that is unnecessary. Depending on the spacing of the flange (i.e., how exactly the flange is centred under the screw), this centrepin line will either dip lower on the right side [if the flange is spaced slightly to the left], or pull upwards on the right side [if the flange is spaced slightly to the right]. If this method is used, I would highly recommend adding paper to the third point of contact (i.e., the travel part of the flange that is not able to make contact in this scenario).

    Pictured is masking tape, because, indeed, my travel paper didn't take hold.

    I recommend trimming travel paper to isolated areas. But, as is pictured above [purple], the flange squaring adjustment can potentially be allowed to hang over in that specific area of the flange. 






  • 74.  RE: Traveling shanks

    Posted 04-05-2015 16:45
    Bradley, All,

    Here's what I have concluded for me, after all that has been said and done thus far in this discussion thread.

    I may not be able to describe the method of madness I use to do the job, nor will I even try any further.

    When it comes to the actual process of traveling shanks, and when it becomes necessary, what I do know is this.

    I am able to do the job, when it needs to be done, using whatever method, materials and understanding I have at the time.
          (beg, borrow, and/or steal  :-) 

    Much appreciation to all who have contributed to this discussion thread.

    Sincerely,

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    -------------------------------------------