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A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

  • 1.  A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-24-2014 12:01
    Can anyone here tell me whether an A.H Gale square grand has tuning pins that will work with a #1 or #2 tuning lever tip? If that's too broad a question, sorry...I don't have anything but a picture of the case to go on right now.

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    Brandon Robertson
    Gardendale AL
    205-612-5544
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  • 2.  RE: A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-24-2014 13:07
    It's not so much if it's a #1 or #2 tip, as it is if it's an oval tip. I presume you have one of those.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 3.  RE: A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-24-2014 13:28
    I do not. I've never tuned a square grand, but I'm guessing from your answer that I should get one just in case.

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    Brandon Robertson
    Gardendale AL
    205-612-5544
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  • 4.  RE: A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Posted 11-24-2014 17:14
    Brandon,
    Don't get one of those tips and that will give you an "out" in case someone asks you to tune one! I have one in the shop for removing tuning pins during rebuilding, but I NEVER put it in my tool bag.  Sometimes we never know what kind of piano the customer has until we walk up to it, so, if I am confronted with one of these, I can honestly say, I do no have a tip to fit those pins.

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    Roger Aycock, RPT, TEC
    Marietta, GA
    rogerspiano@bellsouth.net
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  • 5.  RE: A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Posted 11-25-2014 09:47
    Brandon,

    It appears that Rodger is the best one to advise you. All I can do is write four silly paragraphs , as usual.

      I can't even find my tuning lever for square grands because I lost it on purpose after I tuned, and used unorthodox fixes, on a square Steinway. I wrote to Steinway NY for advise and I won't disclose what the reply was.  The funny thing was the owner of the square had to borrow money from his huntsman to pay me for my two days work. I retreated through the open iron gates of the estate and vowed never to return. I must admit the square looked great in the parlor setting and the best thing that came out of this experience was that I did return because I was able to sell the hunt master a fast hunting dog, that I had rescued, and was living in a stall in my barn. His new accommodations at this horse estate looked much better and he would get to run and have quality meals better than I could afford for myself.

      I remember hearing my first restored square piano at the Smithsonian Museum in Washington DC. I might be wrong but I vaguely remember it was owned by Stephen Foster.  I was there with two fraternity buddies who were piano performance majors. The demonstrating pianist sat down at the piano on display. We held our breath but when he began to play we burst out laughing. The guard in the room came and stood behind us. We stopped our laughing. It was the most pathetic un-piano like sound we had ever heard. Of course we were used to
    modern pianos. I had never seen a square grand for sale at an antique shop or auction for more than $100.

     I had permission to take anything out of an old 1830's abandoned house that had belonged to a horder. In it was a Steinway square piano. Sadly, all I could do was take pictures of it. I took some antique things from the piles of stuff on the floors, and things from the basement walk in fireplace but didn't even attempt to chip a few ivories off the piano. I begged the owner to save the fine exterior doors but he didn't.  The next week the fire company burned the house down as a practice burn. I bet that piano made a spectacular crash as it fell through the floor into the stone basement.

     Years later a member of my antique car club asked me to look at the square grand in his house he had bought for $25. The case was very nice looking.  At my suggestion he removed the strings, filled the interior with sand, added a model of a stable, wise men and you know the rest. Every December he just tool the lid off and hung a star from the ceiling above the piano. Enough said....

    Bob
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    Robert Highfield
    Lancaster PA - farmhouseview@gmail.com
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  • 6.  RE: A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-25-2014 10:36
    Well, with a 9 month old son and a business that's still in the growing stage I feel like I'm not to the point yet where I can turn down piano-related work. I did quote what I believe to be a price that will compensate me for the extra trouble a square grand will apparently be.

    With that said you guys cracked me up this morning.  Thank you :)

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    Brandon Robertson
    Gardendale, AL
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  • 7.  RE: A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-25-2014 11:42
    Go ahead and tune the thing. Everybody in this business should tune (maybe I should say "try to tune") at least one square grand. Only by doing so will you understand why so many of us refuse to do them - regardless of economic circumstances at the time.

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    Gerry Johnston
    Haverhill, MA
    gj@gjpianotuner.com
    www.gjpianotuner.com
    (978) 372-2250
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  • 8.  RE: A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Posted 11-25-2014 11:49
    A Gale piano could be anywhere from 1833 to 1870, a period of inovation and variety in American piano building, so just the name tells you little of what to expect. I would want to know more before investing the gasoline in a visit. I suggest you ask the owner to email you several photos of the piano, including closeups of tuning pins, strings, dampers and keys. Also ask if it has been recently repaired, rebuilt, restrung, restored, and have they ever had it tuned. If recently "restored," ask who did the work. ------------------------------------------- Ed Sutton Editor Piano Technicians Journal ed440@me.com 704-536-7926 -------------------------------------------


  • 9.  RE: A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Posted 11-25-2014 12:11
    Hello Brandon,
    Of course I was just kidding in my earlier remarks, but seriously, there are two type of pins that you might encounter on a square. One type is the oval pin as was discussed, and there is also a square pin.  If the piano has been restrung at some point, it should have modern pins and tuning is no problem.The square pin is smaller than a regular pin and a traditional star tip will not fit.  Both of these tips are available from Schaff.  Also, most of the "birdcage" pianos I have encountered have oval pins.
    I ran into one old upright that no tip would have worked. I found out that the boyfriend had tried tuning the piano with a pair of vise grips and rounded off the pins to a point that I could not tune it. I don't think they make a tip for stupid!


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    Roger Aycock, RPT, TEC
    Marietta, GA
    rogerspiano@bellsouth.net
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  • 10.  RE: A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-25-2014 12:31
    If you are just starting out, put this policy in place and never stray from it: Charge a fee to go to look at it that is just a little lower than your tuning fee. (I call it an estimate/assessment fee. The estimate is for the price of the work, the "assessment" answers the question of wether or not they should do the work and what the end result will be) If you can tune it then and there, it will be the fee to do the work. If the piano cannot be tuned, or needs extensive work, the E/A fee is deductible from the price of the work. This way, you do not become a professional visitor for free. If you walk in cold with the intent to do whatever you can, you run the risk of not being able to do what is expected. That risk is your reputation. It isn't worth the risk. ------------------------------------------- David Estey, RPT www.EsteyPiano.com Piano Tuners Sales Tips for the week. FREE! Sign up here: http://coolstuffformusicians.com/fine-tuning-your-salesmanship Creating Harmony in a World filled with Discord. 1-800-ON A PIANO (662-7426) dave@esteypiano.com -------------------------------------------


  • 11.  RE: A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-25-2014 23:48
    This may be a little off-topic, but I'd like to make a comment on David Estey's advice. Unless you tell your clients that you charge an assessment fee for every new piano that you look at, you will eventually end up in the situation of coming to tune a piano that for whatever reason is not tunable. How you explain your bill can have a big effect on your client's feeling about the situation. After having an unhappy client who only wanted to pay me my minimum service call fee, I now always say something like "Even though I booked off enough time to tune your piano, I won't charge you my full tuning rate since I am not able to tune your piano today." I then explain how my assessment fee structure works, and that that is how I structure my purchase consult fees for when they are looking to buy a replacement piano.

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    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    250-562-5358
    ps@pspianoservice.com
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  • 12.  RE: A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2014 09:32


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    Ron Bergeron, RPT
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    Here's how you handle square grands.  Jack Wyatt mentioned something that has been highly instructive for me in my business in a class he taught several years ago.  He said simply, "Charge enough that you are happy to do the work."  Applying that principle, I charge double the regular rate to tune square grands, and explain that I have to take Advil BEFORE I start tuning.  I also have a 18-inch extension handle for reaching the treble octaves.  Strip mute it carefully, block out 2 hours for the job, use your ETD and you'll be fine.   And I always, ALWAYS prepare the customer for the outcome, which I describe as a "music box" sound, even when it's tuned perfectly.  I also charge double for any work that includes removing the action, and explain how fragile the whole thing is (how many hammers have you broken off sliding the action in and out?).


    Original Message:
    Sent: 11-25-2014 10:36
    From: Brandon Robertson
    Subject: A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Well, with a 9 month old son and a business that's still in the growing stage I feel like I'm not to the point yet where I can turn down piano-related work. I did quote what I believe to be a price that will compensate me for the extra trouble a square grand will apparently be.

    With that said you guys cracked me up this morning.  Thank you :)

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    Brandon Robertson
    Gardendale, AL
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  • 13.  RE: A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2014 11:53
    I'm changing the subject.

    He (meaning Jack, Wyatt).  said simply, "Charge enough that you are happy to do the work."  Applying that principle, I charge double the regular rate to tune square grands,

    I love Jack, and he has some great business ideas, but I totally disagree with this advice. At what point do you decide to charge more than your going rate, just because you don't like to do the work?  Yes, working on a square is difficult. So is regulating upright dampers. So is voicing, so is polyester ttouchup, (if you do that). But does that justify charging more than your going rate?  Not in my opinion. If you don't like doing a particular job, then don't do it. But to charge the customer more, in my opinion, is unethical.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 14.  RE: A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Posted 11-26-2014 14:20
    There's nothing unethical about it. We charge what we can get, with the
    customers' knowledge and acceptance. More pain requires more gain. If we
    charge too much for the quality and quantity of work we produce, our
    clientele goes elsewhere. If they consider the work to be worth the
    price, it's a clean transaction. If I could get five times my rate for
    what I do without misrepresenting anything, I'd be ready to go with no
    problem. Unfortunately, I'm not worth five times my price. Maybe twice...
    (ha)
    Ron N




  • 15.  RE: A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2014 18:51
    I agree with Ron on this one. "Unethical" refers to charging the customer for things we did not do or for knowingly producing shoddy work. Charging a higher rate for difficult or unusual repairs is nothing more than the free market at work. Many piano technicians have a separate fee structure for shop work. What's unethical about that? Suppose I tell a customer up front that I'll tune their square piano in one hour and charge them $1,000 to cover aggravation, pain and suffering. It may be a very foolish, crazy thing for me to do in terms of P.R., but if the customer agrees to the terms there is nothing unethical about it. 
     


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    Gerry Johnston
    Haverhill, MA
    gj@gjpianotuner.com
    www.gjpianotuner.com
    (978) 372-2250
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  • 16.  RE: A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Posted 11-27-2014 09:23
    I always open the top FULLY - even if it means propping it on a chair or something behind. Then I can get at the top of the tuning pins. I always use a 'T' hammer for all horizontally oriented pianos - be they Grands, Squares, Fortes or H'chords. Wedging? I use an ETD and only use ONE wedge. It's usually a black hard rubber - but VERY short, light-weight wedge - so it doesn't over-balance onto the next strings. I've sometimes used a felt wedge. I have never wedged off a whole 8ve! I am Left handed - but sometimes have to use my Right hand for Squares. It's also useful to take some blue, green, red or whatever coloured felt punchings to colour-code every 'C', 'F', 'A' wrest pin as it's so easy to get lost . . . .  Michael (UK) 

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    Michael Gamble
    semi retired
    Brighton
    01273813612
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  • 17.  RE:A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-28-2014 09:54

    That's the purpose of the mute strip -- to keep you from losing your place.
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    Ron Bergeron, RPT
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  • 18.  RE: A.H. Gale square grand tuning pin shape

    Posted 11-29-2014 05:54
    I agree, Ron, it is very easy to lose your place - however a square has only two strings per note and using a muting strip means muting, by alternate notes, first the (L) and then the (R) string - which doesn't make life any easier. I use the ETD to set the bearings and go on from there. The coloured punchings are an aid to locating yourself on the pin-block. Just have to keep your wits about you. This system works fine for me. I dare say there are further difficulties if setting the bearings by ear using just one mute.  Michael (UK)

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    Michael Gamble
    semi retired
    Brighton
    01273813612
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