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Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

  • 1.  Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Posted 11-19-2014 07:02
    David Love, you wrote at some time in the past ( I am not sure when, but it was from the old pianotech days), something along the lines of "Since I pull out and cut each piece of wire before winding them onto the first pin..."   The context was putting CLP liquid on the strings before/during restringing pianos, so you were not 


    May I ask if you could expound on your statement above with regards to restringing, esp on how you measure for each doublet/How do you work out what length to cut before winding it on?

    Thank you.

    Regards,

    -------------------------------------------
    Mark Davis
    Pianoforte Technologies
    Piano Tuner/Technician
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  • 2.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Posted 11-19-2014 12:00
    I made a gage to cut the wire which produces an even becket alignment. Search PTG for Becket Tool.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 3.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Posted 11-19-2014 12:57
    I will make a search.

    Thank you Jon.

    Regards,

    -------------------------------------------
    Mark Davis
    Pianoforte Technologies
    Piano Tuner/Technician
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  • 4.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Posted 11-21-2014 13:33
    Just to qualify,

    My usual method when restringing, to gauge for even becket alignment, is to use 4 fingers in the treble and middle sections, and 3 in the bass
    .
    This method works well, and I keep an eye on my work as I progress, so as to keep all beckets facing in the same direction, as best as possible.

    I was just wondering if there was a better way of doing this.

    Actually, when I first began working on pianos, in a piano restoration workshop, about two decades ago now, one of technicians there used a gauge, not fingers.  The supervisor, who was the head tuner, and a qualified tuner/technician was the one who told me to use my fingers when gauging for the correct length.

    Anyway, what I am doing at the moment does a decent job.

    Thank you.

    -------------------------------------------
    Mark Davis
    Pianoforte Technologies
    Piano Tuner/Technician
    -------------------------------------------




  • 5.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Posted 11-21-2014 15:15
    I use fingers. I figure we have only so much capacity for very high
    quality production beyond which we just can't go because of time and
    talent constraints. On that premise, I chose to devote more to trying to
    improve performance than cosmetics. For me, close is adequate for becket
    alignment, and I do produce a clean looking stringing job though I'm not
    obsessive about perfect becket alignment. I'll put in the overtime on
    making better bridges instead. Building a power bridge notcher,
    preparing hammers for hanging, or making another pass on the action
    regulation.

    Using a measuring tool will very likely produce a more uniform becket
    alignment than I can do freehand. I just never considered it to be
    important enough to add one more tool to the stringing dance. You set
    your priorities and draw your lines, and everyone is different. We just
    try to do the best we can with what we have.
    Ron N




  • 6.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Posted 11-21-2014 15:58
    I like what you have said Ron, and that is the direction I am heading. 

    Thank you.

    -------------------------------------------
    Mark Davis
    Pianoforte Technologies
    Piano Tuner/Technician
    https://www.facebook.com/MarkDavispianotuner
    -------------------------------------------




  • 7.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-21-2014 16:12
    I agree with Ron's assessment. Having beckets all line up is one of the least of my worries when stringing a piano. I use 3/4 fingers, too. I once had a wire cutter on which I put a mark, and used it as a guide for cutting. but fingers are easier.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 8.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-21-2014 17:27
    Just saw this question with my name attached.  

    I use a piece of plastic tubing which I slip over the end of the wire, set the front end of the tubing at the plate hole and cut at the back end of the tube where the wire protrudes.  This produces a uniform length for each note and gets the beckets aligned uniformly.  I do like to see them that way, I just think it looks neater, though it's certainly not critical.  I don't find it takes that much extra time.  I use a 4" tube for the top treble which produces four coils and a three inch tube for the lower treble section, tenor and bass which produces three coils (approximately).  Since there's more stretch in the bass I tend to measure that length to the front (speaking side) of the plate hole. In the upper end of the piano I measure to the back side.  

    The system does require that you pull the length of wire that you want and cut if from the spool first.  In the treble section that's not hard to do as you can simply pull each section and hold it against the length between hitch and tuning pin area that you want.  In the tenor where that is harder to reach I attach a measuring tape (tailor type) to the stretcher and measure periodically from pin area to hitch so I know approximately how long it needs to be.  Pull the wire out , halve it and put the hitch pin bend by wrapping the wire around some needle nose pliers.  Wrap the bend around the high and pull the ends through the cap or agraffe and then measure and cut.  It does create a small amount of waste (usually just enough so that you run just short of what you need with the last spool of #17 wire), but that's just how I do it.  In the bass, I insert the strings through the agraffe, slip the tubing over the end and slide it down to the tuning pin hole and cut the wire at the back end of the tube, same idea.  

    There are other methods, of course, and some don't like to pull the entire length they need first preferring to take the open end, wrap the pin and drive it, pull the wire around the hitch and back up and then cut it.  That works too and is typical of factory settings where it's probably somewhat faster and produces less waste.   If I did this all the time, every day I would probably use that system with an overhead delivery set up where I could just reach straight out to grab the wire and pull it straight down to the piano.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------




  • 9.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-21-2014 17:40
    Here's what I use.  It is incorporated into a tool we all must use anyway, so no extra tool, very precise (much more than necessary) and requires one less step and one less hand.

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    William R. Monroe
    Madison, WI
    www.a440piano.net
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  • 10.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Posted 11-21-2014 23:11
    I've always wondered about the three turn stringing coil. Why three?
    Once three is accepted, four in the treble makes a sort of sense in
    visually positioning the coil bottom the same above the plate to keep
    the depth of the pin in the block similar in the treble as it is in the
    tenor. In so doing, it also keeps overall pin height similar to limit
    flagpoling. But is it real and necessary? And why three in the first
    place? Coils will settle better with two turns than with three or four
    with no penalty in function. Increased depth of the pin in the block
    from fewer turns in the coil can be taken care of with shorter pins. The
    block characteristics determine the pin length we can get away with, so
    we have a choice in both. So why not two?

    I've asked this periodically through the years, but I haven't yet gotten
    an explanation for the three coil standard that makes sense.

    Anyone care to be the first?
    Ron N




  • 11.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Posted 11-22-2014 02:58
    Thank you to all for your responses!

    Regards,

    -------------------------------------------
    Mark Davis
    Pianoforte Technologies
    Piano Tuner/Technician
    https://www.facebook.com/MarkDavispianotuner
    -------------------------------------------




  • 12.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-22-2014 09:44
    Ron, It's the numerological, epistemological, ontological power of three. Maybe eschatological, too. Astrological? ------------------------------------------- Richard West Oro Valley AZ 520-395-0916 440richard@gmail.com -------------------------------------------


  • 13.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-22-2014 09:59

    You wrote:


    > It's the numerological, epistemological, ontological

    > power of three. Maybe eschatological, too. Astrological?


    Hi Richard,


    Nice to see your thoughts (and erudite delivery :) pop up on the list; well said!! Thanks for including your e-mail address -- wish everyone would do that so traffic wouldn't have to flow through the list. :)


    Hope you & Patti are enjoying Oro Valley & environs. I'll have to look it up to see just where you've landed out there.


    If I haven't mentioned it yet, please note my new e-mail address. I'm no longer at Wichita State U. and am enjoying that and all that comes with it very much. :)


    Tell your girl I said, "hi!"



    --

    Regards,


    Alan B. Crane, RPT

    ~Registered Piano Technician~

    316-681-2267

    alan2crane@gmail.com






  • 14.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-22-2014 10:28

    My apologies to everyone for inadvertently cluttering up the list/discussion by failing to send that personal message off-list. I will try to not let that happen again. :(


    --

    Regards,


    Alan B. Crane, RPT

    ~Registered Piano Technician~

    316-681-2267

    alan2crane@gmail.com






  • 15.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-22-2014 11:55
    Can't really speculate on a "real" reason.  It does seem somewhat arbitrary and two coils holds just fine.  There are some pianos that have more than three coils and some vintage pianos have a lot more. Maybe three coils was a compromise at some point from someone who challenged the need for 8 or 9 coils.  



    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 16.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Posted 11-22-2014 13:31
    Someone challenging the status quo and seeing it accepted by everyone?
    Especially something as inconsequential as the number of coils on a pin?
    Hmmm. I have a fair body of evidence accumulated against that one.

    Richard may be right. The Piano Architectural Control Committee got
    together, killed a chicken, snorted toads, boiled a few bats, cast a
    rune or two, and pulled three turns out of their collective repertoire.

    I fear it's probably yet another instance of "because that's what
    Steinway did" so it must be right.
    Ron N




  • 17.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Posted 11-22-2014 14:09
    Three is in between two and four, so there is a degree of safety in aiming for three. ------------------------------------------- Ed Sutton ed440@me.com 704-536-7926 -------------------------------------------


  • 18.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-22-2014 14:27
    Well, it wasn't really a serious explanation and I doubt there is one that we'll find.  You might well be right about people following suit. It also might have been arrived at empirically over time based on the length of the pins being used, distance above the plate that was desirable for the coils and the amount of torque related to how deeply the pin would need to be driven.  That from the leading manufacturers and then people just followed suit.  Or, three seems like a nice number, don't feel comfortable with two, and four seems like more than you need.  I'm inclined toward the last explanation.  Seems like a reasonable number.    

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------




  • 19.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-22-2014 16:30
    Ron,

    I appreciate your support, but I have to object to your characterization. No animals were killed, runes consulted, or other voodoo rituals employed. Only legitimate superstition was involved in determining the sanctity of three.

    Richard

    Sent from my iPad





  • 20.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Posted 11-22-2014 16:52
    I stand thrice corrected. The bats are certainly safe from me, but fried
    chicken is starting to sound pretty good, with a toast to legitimate
    superstitions of all persuasions.
    Ron N




  • 21.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-22-2014 20:59
    I am drinking thrice two that!

    -------------------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 22.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Posted 11-23-2014 12:46
    It goes back to the Pagan era.  3 is the perfect number.  It has a left and a right and a center.  Anything else is evil or off balance.  Awen...

    Since it was pagan, however, I can't rule out any sacrificial ceremonies...

    Regards,

    Rob McCall

    McCall Piano Service, LLC
    www.mccallpiano.com
    Oceanside, CA
    951-698-1875





  • 23.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Posted 11-23-2014 13:07
    Seems like poison ivy ought to get better press then.
    Ron N




  • 24.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-24-2014 07:53
    If it's good enough for Monty Python and the holy hand grenade, then it's good enough for me ;>)

    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Director of Piano Services
    School of Music
    813 Assembly St
    University of South Carolina
    Columbia, SC 29208
    pwilliams@mozart.sc.edu
    -------------------------------------------




  • 25.  RE: Measuring Steel Wire for each "doublet"?

    Posted 11-23-2014 07:18
    I have always been grateful to the stringers who put 4 or 5 coils on the wrest pin - for when a string breaks at the coil of a shared pair there is always enough on the other end to loosen and pull round thus saving time and having to lug around a full complement of gauged strings. Likewise (in a manner of speaking) who was it dictated the single loop hitch pin loop? I prefer the double hitch pin loop as used by Broadwood. Back to the wrest pin coils - it's a case of 'looks good' to have numerous coils around the pin (and it does! IMO) It looks as if it's meant to hold. (don't forget to pinch in the kneb into the pin-hole!) When I restrung my S&S 'A' I went one turn further and used 6 coils! Now that looks quite cool! Flag poling?? Nonsense! the business end of the coils is next to the plate (or web - or what ever) so there's no greater chance of 'flag poling' using 6 coils than when using 2 !! This is just pure 'anchorage'.  Michael (UK)

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    Michael Gamble
    semi retired
    Brighton
    01273813612
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