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'Controlled' alcohol-water application

  • 1.  'Controlled' alcohol-water application

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2014 10:23
    I've started a different thread, in response to Phil Bondi's question, so as not to distract from any other direct responses Jim I might get directly on his question about rep-lever repinning

    Phil Bondi asked:
    David, would you be so kind to explain your 'controlled alcohol/water application' process? I've had mixed results myself, and I am curious of the method of others.

    As I think I made clear, my 'controlled' application did not quite provide me with 'controlled' results, this time, though I may have given in to some degree of impatience, at some point, so I don't think the approach is entirely without merit.

    I made up a variety of different ratios of alcohol (anhydrous methanol or isopropyl) starting with pure alcohol, then 3-1, 2-1, 1-1 (alcohol-water).  Generally, I found no change with pure alcohol and gradually greater effect as the water content increased.  I apply solution with a #27 gauge needle on a 2 oz Gaunt LDPE plastic bottle, one drop on each side of pin.  Let it dry and observe results.  I don't have the application control I want to feel confident of the experiment unless I've un-mounted part from rail.  

    I'm still using up what's left of the gallon of anhydrous I bought some years ago from a local distributor that subsequently blew up.  It seems more difficult and more expensive to get the stuff now, but I don't see how one could even begin to hope to have some control without it.


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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 2.  RE: 'Controlled' alcohol-water application

    Posted 07-30-2014 13:45
    These Tokiwa Universal whips come with flange separate. Yesterday afternoon, trying to come up with an efficient protocol, I tried just finding the pin was just tight enough in the birdseye, a .049, installing, no reaming or bushing, and applying some 1/1 (not too picky about the proportions at all...eyeballed) denatured alcohol/tap water. This morning every one a consistent 1.5-2 g. with some excerise dropped a little to 1-ish g. That's just dandy for whip flanges...I'll take it. 

    I considered just applying the 1/1 to the flanges before attaching them to the whips, but decided against it, as the sizing accomodates whatever drilling inaccuracies impose on the way the pin sits in the bushing.

    Jim Ialeggio   

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 3.  RE: 'Controlled' alcohol-water application

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2014 20:35
    Thanks Dave and Jim. Dave, I have always taken the parts off to get the desired results. If you've had success leaving the parts on, great. I have not.

    Again, I appreciate the replies on this.

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    -Phil Bondi
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  • 4.  RE: 'Controlled' alcohol-water application

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2014 20:43
    Oh dear, you've got me going again .............. put on your flame suit.

    Why would you WANT to find anhydrous methanol?? The stuff is VERY TOXIC, not just from drinking it. It is toxic to breathe, and you can absorb it through your skin as well. Reading the safety sheet on it, I found out that a small child died from drinking only two tablespoons of it. Use it on pianos? Use it around customers in ill health? I wouldn't even have it in the house!

    If you want a good dry alcohol, much less toxic, just as good for all your methanol uses, go to the liquor store and buy a fifth of bulk 190 proof alcohol. Brand at my local is "Clear Spring." I use it for lots of things: to make a sizing solution (usually I do 1:1) which I also use to remove bushing cloth, soften glue before extracting hammers, and also for voicing down hammers (in very small quantities, not soaking a whole hammer.)  I use it straight in an alcohol lamp for burning shanks, and it also makes really fabulous shellac from flakes, with a tremendous shelf life if kept tightly sealed.

    A fifth of 190 proof ethanol will usually last me at least a couple of years. It can be used without anxiety indoors, and I always have a dropper bottle of the 1:1 ("vodka") in my kit in a ziploc bag. No worry if someone got exposed to it.
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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

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  • 5.  RE:'Controlled' alcohol-water application

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2014 22:31
    I second Susan on this. Keep in mind that even denatured alcohol contains methanol (quite a bit) and other toxic chemicals.

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    Benjamin Rocke
    Piano Technician
    Manchester CT
    860-533-0311
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  • 6.  RE: 'Controlled' alcohol-water application

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2014 23:08

    190 proof alcohol is dangerous to children if they drink it. But I agree, Methyl alcohol is not needed for shrinking action centers. For staining wood it is sometimes.

    I have had good luck with slightly sluggish centers by applying denatured alcohol and then breathing on the bushing for a minute immediately after application, than exercising the flange until is swells up and then heating with heat gun until it first starts to free up and letting it coast the rest of the way. Been doing it that way for thirty five years and no call backs and it solves the problem right then and there, no waiting.
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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 7.  RE: 'Controlled' alcohol-water application

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2014 23:46
    Off the shelf Isopropyl alcohol is usually 30% water (though you can get it as low as 10%) and I find that works well for shrinking bushings and I use it for action centers as well as guide rail bushings.  The type of alcohol is unimportant for this purpose as it only serves as the carrier to break surface tension so using toxic compounds isn't necessary or advisable.   

    I don't generally heat action centers unless I'm in a time crunch as I find that it's easy to overdo it and also to loosen the center pin in the bird's eye if you aren't careful.  If 30% isn't enough water you can always add some. 

    I do like Susan's 190 proof solution though I might be tempted to squirt a bit into my afternoon beverage on a bad day. 

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 8.  RE: 'Controlled' alcohol-water application

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-31-2014 04:51
    Dear Susan, all -
    Sorry to wake you.  I misspoke/wrote.  While I no longer have the paperwork (never a good idea), I'm sure it's ethanol that I'm currently using, not methanol.  I, too, will explore the local 'package store' option for 190 proof supplies.  Otherwise, thanks for the clarification. As for flame suit, not sure if it was for any ensuing discussion or advised for use with 190 proof product.  I will experiment and take notes.

    I'm not discounting anyone else's experience, either with off-the-shelf product or magical breath. I do wonder if it might be possible to combine Susan's method with Ed McM's by first drinking product and then breathing on action center. This will also take much experimentation.  Someone else will have to take notes, and also drive home.

    Phil... Regarding removing a parts from rail, I said
    I don't have the application control I want to feel confident of the experiment unless I've un-mounted part from rail
    so I basically agree with you.  I have some degree of wonderment about the possibility that, by refining the ratio of the solution, along the lines of what I had initially mentioned and then, in his response,Benjamin R had posted: 5% water in ethanol, then 10%, and then 15%, it might be possible to make an informed and efficient effort without having to dis-mount parts.  I'm not there yet

    As for Jim I's initial question, which was being addressed more specifically in the 'rep lever pinning' thread,  we'd need to find some apply-able solution that will swell bushings in an equally controlled way, without the subsequent shrinking.   Anyone know the active ingredients of VS Profelt?

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 9.  RE: 'Controlled' alcohol-water application

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-31-2014 07:35
    My, my...how times have changed.

    I remember getting flamed and made fun of for suggesting using a drinking alcohol for tight action centers.  Been doing it for over 35 years now and not a call back.

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    Tim Coates
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 10.  RE: 'Controlled' alcohol-water application

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-31-2014 10:01
    Tim -
    On the one hand, I extend  apologies on behalf of my entire species.  On the other, I hope they''re calling you back for something.

    In general, not much more to say on this subject without more thorough data.  I do think there's room for firming up the understanding of what's going on, on more of a micro level, but it's an indulgence in comparison to getting the job done (well) and out. Waiting for next slow period.  

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY

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  • 11.  RE: 'Controlled' alcohol-water application

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-31-2014 13:31
    Skolnik: "Anyone know the active ingredients of VS Profelt?"

    Essentially water, some type of fabric softener, and a bit of silicone oil, in some kind of liquid vehicle, best I have been able to determine (partly from evaporating it to see what the residue is, partly from the way it behaves/smells/etc.). If you are thinking of using it to tighten action centers, think again. Someone once posted that Profelt would do that, and so just to be sure that what I "knew" to be the case really was true, I did the experiment, taking some fairly loose (1 - 2 gm) centers and dosing them. Next day they were 0 gm. I don't know the proportion of Profelt's ingredients, but suspect it is more than half water. It would do to loosen centers, but probably over-loosen. Better to have a formula you can control.

    As for tightening key bushings, against a caul, the tightening action of water in any form is caused simply swelling the felt to take up space (individual fibers swell in cross section and straighten somewhat. All fibers are acting at the same time and become fixed in a new matrix, limited by the caul that was inserted). If the space is tightly confined, like in action centers, that swelling results in additional felting, because the fibers don't have space and opportunity to "stretch out," and when the fibers dry out and shrink, the result is a looser fit.

    So if you want to swell the center bushings to make them tighter when pinned, you need to remove the pin first. VS Profelt would work for that, but probably too high a proportion of water for most cases. Note that if you apply Profelt to key bushings without inserting a caul, they will swell beyond where you wanted them to (and quite possibly come unglued and fall out).

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    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
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  • 12.  RE: 'Controlled' alcohol-water application

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-31-2014 19:48
    To add to these points, I've used Profelt to size bushings (i.e. loosen them) but the problem with it is that it doesn't have a good carrier so it tends to not soak into the cloth easily.  So I've mixed it sometimes with alcohol with limited success. 

    I don't think there is a good way to swell the bushings to make the centers tighter.  Anything that swells the bushings, such as water, eventually dries and the bushing shrinks having been further compressed by the initial swelling.  It ends up looser.  I would not recommend looking for something that swells the cloth and remains there unless you're looking for something like Pintite--don't think that's a good idea.

    I've generally found that repining up 1/2 size does the trick pretty well to the degree that the bushings are uniform to begin with, which they often aren't.  You can do that very quickly and easily before the wippens are installed testing as you go.  Short cuts usually make for long delays. 

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 13.  RE: 'Controlled' alcohol-water application

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-31-2014 20:05
    I have applied drinking alcohol to give the bushings an evenness before I repinned with the correct size.  The application of the drinking alcohol needed to dry over night to slow dry.  All bushings were the same size so the new pin just needed to be inserted.  No reaming or burnishing (which ever method you use to burnish).

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    Tim Coates
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 14.  RE: 'Controlled' alcohol-water application

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-31-2014 22:16
    My understanding of the materials physics of shrinking felt action centers is that the water swells the felt quicker than the wood, plus the hole is the wood gets smaller when the wood swells, this compresses the felt, the felt dries faster than the wood, then the wood dries out and makes the hole larger, this reduces the compression between the pin and the felt from the prior, untreated state. Because the felt has been made more dense by the treatment.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 15.  RE: 'Controlled' alcohol-water application

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-31-2014 23:54
    I totally agree, David. Pinning an action may take labor, but at least you get something for the effort, and it lasts for quite awhile.

    As for human uses of the Clear Spring, I've never drunk the piano alcohol yet, but the way world news is going these days, I certainly understand if someone else wants to.

    One use for 190 proof potable ethanol which I like is making ultrablonde shellac from it for a voicing solution. It isn't for everyone, voicing with shellac, because hard playing gets the tone gradually more mellow again. But if one can time it right, one can get just the right kick from it, with a very decent tone quality, and after some very heavy playing it will go back to where it started before the solution was added. I have some of that shellac which I made up seven or eight years ago (from very fresh dry 190 proof, never left open for more than a few seconds), and I keep it in my kit in a dropper bottle inside a ziploc bag. To my amazement, it still dries just fine and doesn't go gummy like aging premixed shellac from a hardware store.

    One thing I've wondered is that: when I've voiced with shellac, and over time it has stopped sounding bright, I assume that it has shattered so it doesn't glue the fibers together. What I'm wondering is whether wetting it with alcohol might get it temporarily bright again. That would be fun to find out. Has anyone tried that? If it works, using shellac and then deciding how bright one felt like having it TODAY, by using the right amount at the right time before a performance, and/or then re-constituting it later by getting it wet with alcohol again might give one considerably more control of tone, both brighter and softer, than just applying lacquer once and then trying to needle it. And all non-toxic.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

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  • 16.  RE: 'Controlled' alcohol-water application

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-01-2014 11:43
    Susan,
    Would acetone re-dissolve the existing shellac in hammer felt? I haven't tried it to see. Since acetone flashes off in a couple of hours that would give you more timing flexibility. I do prefer lacquer for hammers. Once the hammers are light enough, any needed lacquer can be quite dilute and sparingly applied for great benefit. Plus lacquer also dries out over time so as the hammers get work hardened from use the dilute lacquer is breaking down.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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