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Limits to what artists can demand

  • 1.  Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2015 14:15
    What is the limit for what the artist can demand on a piano that isn't theirs?  I'm burning out on one artist thinking a piano is too loud so I voice it down, and the next coming in and saying I need to lacquer the hammers. Or one wants 441 or 442 and the next wants 440.   I can understand if there is real problem, such as the amount of aftertouch or slow repetition.  But when do you get to the point where they are just going to have to adapt to the sound of a new instrument?  All this trying to accommodate them is taking its toll on the piano that got new hammers just a few years ago.  Now someone said this piano sounds worn out, where it was great at first.  Now it already needs new hammers and we really can't afford it. 

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    Robert Callaghan
    Reno NV
    775-287-2140
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  • 2.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2015 17:24
    Ah Robert, you raise the age old problem. 

    I would want to have this conversation with the "owner" of the piano. The discussion regarding authority to adjust a particular piano needs to include who the customer is. Is it the audience? Is it the performer? Is it the general "muse" of established performance practices?

    It includes the notion of who the artist is working for as well.

    We technicians have a fiduciary responsibility to conserve piano "assets" for our clients. Clients should know that we are interested in protecting their piano investments.

    Lots of food for thought. Thanks for asking.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 3.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2015 14:01
    Back in the days when I did that sort of work we -- the auditorium's management (the piano's owner) and I  -- made up a financial responsibility form for the artist, or the artist's management to sigh accepting full financial responsibility for returning the piano to the condition required by the symphony conductor and principle pianist. As long as the artist signed the form I was free to do anything their little hearts desired. Needless to say that eliminated the most extreme requests. When the artist found out that the piano would probably need a new set of hammers after he/she was through with it they pretty much always decided it wasn't all that bad to begin with.

    ddf

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    Delwin Fandrich
    Olympia WA
    360-515-0119
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  • 4.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Posted 05-26-2015 13:46

    I am debating revealing the back story about the Bosendorfer used on the 1973 Keith Jarret album the Köhn concert..... a lot of typing for that story.....

    The artist or performer, if a true professional, will play whatever equipment is put in front of them without complaint.

    The ones that complain are the prima donna's of the music world. They are paid to play not whine like five year olds about the shortcomings of the equipment.

    I instruct owners of pianos in public venues this fact;

     "Musicians always complain about the equipment.

    When the paying customer complains that is when you do something about the complaint."

    The musician is paid to play. The customer pays to hear the musician.

    The technician answers to the party that owns the equipment, pays the invoice, and no one else.

    If the musician is unsatisfied with the equipment then the recommendation from my shop is to instruct the complainer to bring their own equipment along.

    Most of the complainers are the same people that order a 20 dollar bottle of wine at dinner, and then send it back to make it appear like they have some sort of refined taste.



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    Dan Silverwood
    www.silverwoodpianos.com
    http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
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  • 5.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-26-2015 14:14
    Ah well, this incident is well-known part of jazz lore. One reason that the story remains an interesting one is that while the piano greatly displeased the artist, the resulting recording of the instrument in concert has become a generally-accepted masterwork.

    The story should be told.

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    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
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  • 6.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-26-2015 15:31
    Well, as they say, "your mileage may vary" depending on the type of venue you are working for.

    However, what I'm picking up from your post is that you are talking as if the artist and the technician are in an adversarial relationship.
    This has not been my experience. After all, we both want the same thing.

    If a pianist is feeling any discomfort while playing the instrument, I definitely want to know about it!

    Is that a good idea, for the pianist to suffer in silence while hating the instrument? Their tendency already is to avoid complaining in the hope that they will be invited back.

    Dan, you were talking about what the pianist's job is, but you didn't mention what your job is. The way I see it, we are hired to provide the performer with the tools (and also the psychological ambiance) for them to do their best work. I want the piano to offer them a full range of musical options, while being very dependable. I want the piano to allow them musical transparency, so that it has no issues which interfere with their musical wishes. Of course total "transparency" is impossible, but I do keep working toward it as well as I can.

    I also think that a good piano technician who has a good working relationship with the people running the concert hall (or the university department, or the concert-holding church) should be a buffer between them and the artist. That is, we should keep them informed but also not expect them to decide about routine requests from the pianists. It has been my experience that the better the artist, the more reasonable the requests will be, and I'll do my best to give them what they want, within the range that I consider healthy for the piano.

    Most of the time they seem happy with what we offer them, and when I tell them that I'll check the tuning just before the concert and at intermission, they seem surprised and gratified, which is a pretty pathetic statement about the service they are getting elsewhere.

    The whole situation may be different in different places. The artists we get coming through here are SUPERB, WORLD-CLASS!! It's amazing to me the number of truly wonderful pianists who are out there, without my knowing their names till they arrive. I feel it's a great honor to work with them. And they make my work sound wonderful! What's not to like?

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

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  • 7.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-26-2015 16:08
    Köhn concert was my future wife's and my favorite album during our time leading up to our marriage. Being a jazz musician and an RPT, I also would enjoy the story behind the piano for the Köhn concert. What do you think?
    Gary

    Gary Doudna RPT
    Registered PianoTechnician
    920-839-5007





  • 8.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-26-2015 23:05
    I think that the story of Horowitz's Golden Jubilee concert is more apropos to this discussion than the Köln concert. Horowitz hadn't played with an orchestra for years, and he was feeling quite nervous about being heard over the orchestra. He instructed his piano technician, Franz Mohr, to lacquer the hammers harder and harder until they were loud but sounded terrible. Franz Mohr said that he always regretted giving in Horowitz for that concert, especially since it has become a popular and important recording (it even won a Grammy).

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    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    250-562-5358
    ps@pspianoservice.com
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  • 9.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-27-2015 00:09
    Mind you, in this case, it wasn't the venue's piano, it would have been Horowitz's travelling Steinway.

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    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    250-562-5358
    ps@pspianoservice.com
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  • 10.  RE:Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-28-2015 02:54

    Horowitz's traveling Steinway was a Steinway Cncert Stock piano which reverted to Steinway after Horowitz gave it up. Artists who get those C&A pianos assigned to them can perform all kinds of butchery in them. And yes, they pay for it (but not for reversing it when they send the piano back). I was working C&A at Steinert in Boston when Rudolf Serkin's four Steinways ( 3 D's and an M) came there after he retired. Two of the D's had unspeakable things done to them...
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    Israel Stein RPT
    P.O. Box 68141
    Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
    510-558-0777
    istein248@gmail.com
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  • 11.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-28-2015 08:27
    "Two of the D's had unspeakable things done to them... "
    In this 'day and age', what could possibly be considered "unspeakable"?  Please speak.

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 12.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2015 08:33
    OK, David, I'll speak, but you have to promise not to read this too soon after a meal - I wouldn't want you to lose your dinner   :-)  .

    The first one was the piano Serkin used at the Music at Marlborough Festival in Vermont. That was the first one he sent back. It was a lovely-sounding instrument, several artists wanted to use it in performance - but we found it was unvoiceable,  The hammers had been filed down to the point that you couldn't get a needle into them. Also, they complained about the touch - too light and uneven. "Management" asked me to look into it, and when I took the action apart, I found that someone screwed a bunch of Jiffy Weights under the keys where you couldn't see them. The hammers were just too far gone for reweighting - (this isn't the only concert piano I have come across whose tone is at its peak just before the hammers are totally gone...) After much handwringing, "Management" decided to replace the hammers and shanks on this piano (the tone was really beautiful - hated to risk losing it) and we reweighted the keys. See below about results. The CD number looked familiar to me - and sure enough, it turned out to be the piano that was written up in the Atlantic Monthly article back in the 80;s about how a Steinway is manufactured - it was easy, because we had a bunch of those offprints all over the store. 

    The other one we called the Gemini piano. It was the the one Serkin used for recording. When we pulled the action, it was discovered that half the hammers, shanks and wippens - top half - had been replaced. The bottom half were original. How did we know? In the top half of the action the knuckle and drop screw positions were different, and so the wippens were a different style - to match the knuckle position... I think this was done toward the end of the CBS era at Steinway, and parts availability was a mess - the New York action machinery was being rebuilt and Steinway was making one of their less successful attempts to standardize parts between New York and Hamburg - so I suspect that Serkin's tech (most likely his other son, John) had to use whatever was available. Why they decided to rebuild only half the action - your guess is as good as mine. I have my theories.

    We got rid of all of Serkins pianos eventually - they just weren't good enough for Concert Stock any more or at least not any better than the ones that we already had. We did try to work on the Atlantic/Marlborough piano - many artists really liked the tone when it first came in - but chose not to use it because of the touch. After hammer replacements, we never got the tone anywhere near where it was before, and the artists kept choosing other pianos. So it went the way of the others, probably to some college...

     
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    Israel Stein RPT
    P.O. Box 68141
    Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
    510-558-0777
    istein248@gmail.com
    -------------------------------------------

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    Original Message:
    Sent: 05-28-2015 08:27
    From: David Skolnik
    Subject: Limits to what artists can demand

    "Two of the D's had unspeakable things done to them... "
    In this 'day and age', what could possibly be considered "unspeakable"?  Please speak.

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 13.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Posted 05-28-2015 10:17
    There's a good biography about Franz Mohr's life - makes good reading and worth adding to the Library!  Michael  UK

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    Michael Gamble
    semi retired
    Brighton
    01273813612
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  • 14.  RE:Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-28-2015 10:58

    "There is so much art and skill in understanding what an artist is asking for. Each situation is as unique as the people."




    Regarding the above...




    I've often had pianists remark that the "keys felt shallow" on a specific instrument. I've never heard this remark about a concert piano, and never about an instrument that actually had shallow key-dip. 

    A concert pianist from London made this after playing a freshly-arrived 7' piano in one of our teaching studios. I measured key-dip at 11.5mm! (12.5mm = 1/2")

    I've spent years trying to figure out what this comment actually means - not necessarily limiting possibilities to just one interpretation. 

    Every piano I've been able to follow up with has had at least 10mm of key-dip, solid key-frame bedding, 1.5mm of let-off, well-timed damper-lift, and consistent aftertouch throughout. IOW, from my perspective, nothing in the keystroke that felt shallow or limited. 

    I'm grateful to those in earlier days of this list for explaining that when a pianist says "lack of power," they actually mean "please check the glides." I would be equally appreciative if someone can decode "shallow keys" for me. 

    So far neither Google Translate nor Rosetta Stone have been much help. 
    Thanks and best!
    Mark Cramer, RPT

    Sent from my iPhone
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    Mark Cramer
    Brandon MB
    204-727-2350
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  • 15.  RE:Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-28-2015 11:40
    Mark, I have had very similar comments made. He closest example I can think of is, "this piano seems to have a 'deeper action' ". I would check all the important settings just as you said, and had the same thoughts. Hmmm...wonder what she is trying to say. We were comparing a Steinway L to something similar.
    I recently installed new hammers, Abel Naturals primarily due to the Renner Blues that were there were way to light and pretty much "shot". I did go back with the nice firm "conical" front rail punchings from Jurgen (thanks Jurgen! Love your stuff!) BUT I'm still not convinced this is what she actually meant by her comments. She is very happy and this piano now has a very full range of tone, and frankly is a bit on the mellow side in the bass half. --PERFECT!
    Back to your question: I'm going to propose the following possibility and hopefully this will STIR UP THE POT JUST A BIT if nothing else as others will hopefully chime in.
    Here it is: perhaps at times, if the dip a little on the deep side, they actually feel the let off SOONER, and therefore could think "shallow". Just one thought. Kevin

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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
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  • 16.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-28-2015 14:50
    If the letoff and drop are aggressively regulated to be as minimal as possible, and the aftertouch is fairly small, one could get a tight (i.e. the opposite would be "mushy") feeling which someone could interpret as shallow keys.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

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  • 17.  RE:Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-28-2015 17:59
    Susan, YES exactly. Well said. I went to a really good regulation class that was given at a regional seminar near Austin last year. He had a go/no go thickness gauge for checking aftertouch. He uses old CD plastic cases which he suggests is "just the right thickness" in his opinion. I got home and made one out of wood veneer, but matching the thickness of a standard CD case. I've been using it some and you know, I think it really is just about perfect in most cases. (sorry...pun!). It's just awfully easy to get in the habit of regulating with a tiny but too much. It's nice to have a tangible thickness handy.
    It's about the width of well, a front rail punching, with a nice slot in it to push under the front rail punching. You have to get used to how much to press the key down and how much resistance you want as you pull it out--but once you get familiar-it's a pretty nice tool.
    Kevin
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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
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  • 18.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-28-2015 19:02
    Marc Kramer said:
    " I would be equally appreciative if someone can decode "shallow keys" for me."

    The best candidate for such decoding would be the person that said it, in the context of a conversation.  Why should we be spending so much effort treating such comments as 'oracular' offerings?  It could be simply that the player ('artist' or not)  is used to something different.  It seems a somewhat unlikely scenario that a basically well regulated, functioning action, would have a key dip any less than .400" (10.16mm) and still support an aftertouch of .045" (1.14mm), the thickness of a CD case.  

    On the other hand, Susan's comment is a bit confusing:
    "If the letoff and drop are aggressively regulated to be as minimal as possible, and the aftertouch is fairly small, one could get a tight (i.e. the opposite would be "mushy") feeling which someone could interpret as shallow keys."

    Given that it's possible to get complete escapement with an aftertouch (key travel after jack begins to escape) of as little as .015" (0.39mm), performing such an "aggressive" regulation would seem to require a shallow key dip.

    Apart from regulating to either extreme of the zone that represents an acceptable working efficiency, the use of Crescendo felt punchings in place of the otherwise 'standard' cloth could be quite noticeable to a pianist unaccustomed to them.

    I'm not sure I'm entirely 'down' with the idea of a single "go/no go thickness gauge for checking aftertouch".  Assuming you develop a consistent touch (pressure), you can use a small assortment of slot-cut front rail punchings  (.020", .025", .030", .040", .045") to accurately assess or establish the desired amount of aftertouch.  

    I also don't understand: "how much resistance you want as you pull it out"

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 19.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-28-2015 20:34
    David said: <<
    Given that it's possible to get complete escapement with an aftertouch (key travel after jack begins to escape) of as little as .015" (0.39mm), performing such an "aggressive" regulation would seem to require a shallow key dip.>>

    Even if the blow distance was wider than usual?

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

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  • 20.  RE:Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-28-2015 21:51
    David, although I agree completely with most of what you are saying, especially especially the de-coding part, and not deviating from doing really quality action regulation work, and that we ALL have to do what's best for each individual piano, etc etc. And it was not my intention to indicate that we should all set key dip more shallow than usual or more shallow than spec as "a rule of thumb".
    As I was finishing my post about the nifty gauge that I have been experimenting with, I thought, "oh my. I hope this doesn't get lost in translation". It may be one of those "have to be there" type of things.

    At the end of that class about 25 VERY experienced technicians went up to the piano and we all, feeling of the aftertouch, agreed that the aftertouch was VERY EVEN & quite sufficient.
    So I withdraw my suggestion about the exact thickness of a CD case being a good gauge for this. Even though in real life, with the gauge this guy was using, and THE WAY he did it--was pretty impressive TO ME at the time. So I hope this clears things up a bit. Again, my intention was to just stimulate thought and discussion.
    I still LIKE what Susan said. I'm not sure why it was confusing. But that's okay.
    Good discussion IMHO
    KEVIN

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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
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  • 21.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2015 07:27
    Hi Susan -
    We're almost 'officially' off-topic (Limits to what artists can demand), for which we can always blame Mark C.  I think we're getting unnecessarily confused by our own use of the word 'shallow', and by the exercise of trying to figure out what any number of players ('artist' or otherwise) might actually mean in their use of the word.

    Technically, in our own usage, it should refer, specifically, to the amount of key travel, in relation to the manufacturer's specs.  It might also refer to how successfully (or not) the particular key dip supports a particular regulation, i.e for a given set-up, including anomalous hammer blow distance.  

    I'm not sure how to address your 'what if' scenario. Minimizing let-off/drop and increasing hammer blow will both tax the limits of aftertouch.  To accomplish your suggested set-up, you might reasonably have to increase dip, and yet, you are suggesting that the player could perceive it as being shallow?  Would this be for any  reason other than that the aftertouch is so minimal?

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 22.  RE:Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2015 08:52
    David, Susan, and all,
    In response to that last post by David, although not on the topic of "limits...";

    I wanted to refer to what the Fazioli expert Technician from New York said when he came here to brief me on their regulation specifics, so that I would be able to do a good job following their tight protocol as far as regulation on our new Fazioli 278 (he was from originally from Italy btw).
    He said, "you doan vant to set it up with too much aftertouch. Many musicians do not like. Especially Jazz."
    So between this, and what several other techs have taught at PTG Seminars, it just made me more "aware" that a little extra aftertouch is not necessarily better, unless you actually need it to make the action work well. And it may in fact be a slight negative in many cases.
    So am I thinking wrong on this?
    Have others of you heard/experienced similar things to this?

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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
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  • 23.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Posted 05-29-2015 11:58
    If the action frame is somewhat flexible, it is possible to tweak aftertouch by turning the glide bolts. Yamaha and Kawai are very flexible, Steinway somewhat. Fazioli? Regulate some samples with the glides just touching the keybed with very little aftertouch. Then experiment turning down the glides a quarter turn at a time to see what the action allows. (Make sure the una corda still works easily.) As you turn down the glides, aftertouch will increase. Measure aftertouch to see what range of adjustment you can accomplish by turning the glides. ------------------------------------------- Ed Sutton ed440@me.com 704-536-7926 -------------------------------------------


  • 24.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2015 15:46
    Kevin -
    Have to say, he doesn't sound Italian to me.  Maybe if he had said " you donna wanna...", but then we verge into dangerously inept parody, or worse.
    Still on aftertouch: my best advice is to experiment.  Use Crescendo front punching (reduces the effect of inconsistent finger pressure), Use the front card punchings (slotted) I previously mentioned.  Practice measuring the exact amount of aftertouch by approaching the point of no-escapement by adding .003" (white) punchings, incrementally, until, with as little extra pressure jack won't clear knuckle.  For added fun (again, only works with crescendo felt punching), try adding the thinnest balance rail paper (incrementally), i.e. .0015" or .002".  Even that little bit can have an effect.  Of course, this level of refinement presupposes that you've established your hammer blow and let-off, both of which will affect aftertouch significantly.  

    Having done that, you can use the same approach to refine your key dip/aftertouch, by:
    - determine how much AT you want (.020", .025". etc.) 
    - insert that thickness card (above cloth)
    - add paper until you reach the escapement threshold (above cloth)
    - remove gauge-card
    - install paper (under cloth)
    - check

    To be clear, I didn't invent this.  I can't remember if this is what's referred to as the 'lost punching' method.

    In general, try to avoid discussing aftertouch in the general terms of "a little extra ... ".   It's measurable, so it's worth being as specific as possible.

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 25.  RE:Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-30-2015 12:13
    David, (and all) great thoughts/input. I'm really learning from this discussion. I also really like the Crecendo punchings so far. (As I mentioned a coupe a posts back. 😊). I haven't had time to dig up my "go/no go" tool, as others are asking me to post a pic, while I be glad to do. I did measure the wood veneer that I made mine out of (love the hobby shops veneers. And thanks Ed for the hobby shop plastic idea- so many good options!) The veneer I used measures 39.5 thousandths with the digital caliper I have, but have not gotten out my micrometer yet, and frankly that would be a waste of time for this. I'll just call it 0.40 for all practical purposes. (We had to move 4 grands and 14 uprights yesterday. Getting ready to RE-model practice rooms- yay!!)
    Probably the most important things to this are methodology. (And yes David, experimenting! And figuring out what works well looking at EVERYTHING for each individual piano.)
    So I love Ed's idea of using the key weight.
    SO bottom line; between using the key weight, and using a thickness gauge of ones choice, and figuring out how much resistance you want as you are pulling out the gauge, and assuming all other regulation is not only within specs and is working well for the piano, I really believe I will be able to increase my CONSISTENCY and accuracy of my aftertouch on future regulations. That's my goal. I hope to experiment and work on this ASAP.
    KEVIN


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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
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  • 26.  RE:Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-30-2015 12:22
    "Kevin -
    Have to say, he doesn't sound Italian to me.  Maybe if he had said " you donna wanna...", but then we verge into dangerously inept parody, or worse."

    Agreed! I take full responsibility for the bad attempt at impersonating!

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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
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  • 27.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Posted 05-29-2015 16:31

    Kevin,

     You can get styrene plastic sheets at a good hobby shop. .040" might be a good thickness to start. It is perhaps a little thin, but I like it.

    It cuts easily to make "Y" shaped aftertouch gauges. You can glue on punchings to make quick test gauges to estimate what to add to reach.040" aftertouch (or your chosen dimension) A thin punching on one end of a double Y makes a go/no go gauge.

    I have a 365 gram weight which I sit gently on the key. The goal is to set aftertouch so that the jack will just escape when i tap the weight with my capstan tool. (I believe i got this from Jon Hartman) This gives very accurate aftertouch. In a hurry i may set every 4th or 5th key this way, and do the in betweens by feel.

    I also prefer to remove the naturals and set after touch on the accidentals with the naturals out of the way, then replace the naturals and complete the aftertouch.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    704-536-7926
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  • 28.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-30-2015 13:13
    Ed -
    Some obsessive clarification sought:

    - If you start with .040" material, how do you set up for anything less than .040?
    - I'm not clear about the part where you're gluing-on punchings to estimate the add-ons
    - The purpose of the 365 gram weight is: a) to test the escapement resistance?, or b) to apply consistent pressure on key from one note to next?
    - Do you remove the naturals (when setting accidental dip) purely for ease of access?
    - Do you use same aftertouch spec for naturals and accidentals?  
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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 29.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-30-2015 14:25

    Hi, David and all,

    Here are a couple of tidbits relative to this chain, which has turned into a discussion on even aftertouch, and how much.

    I have been using something that is loosely like the "go/no-go" or aftertouch gauges or shims that have been mentioned. An important point about that is that it doesn't need to specify any one aftertouch amount, it is quite variable as a single tool.

    I used a penny with a hole drilled in it for many years, after seeing it in a PTG class - maybe going back 30 years to Jack Krefting? I don't recall, it's been too long. And recently I switched to a tool that comes from Rick Baldassin's huge hands-on regulation class, the one with all the action models. I took the class years ago, and recently helped him get his class set up late one night. He gave me a little plastic tool with the Renner logo on it, looks like a white plastic tongue depressor with a slot at one end. I measured it, and it's exactly .050", and maybe by coincidence, so is my old penny. (I found some older style key top material that is also .050", for making more tools, although newer stuff seems to be .070", way too thick.)

    I don't recall the exact description Rick uses to demonstrate its use in class, but here's how I use it:

    Only after samples were done, regulation is mostly done, hammer line is very even, drop and letoff are done and very even, does this concept work. It is pretty exact, and slight variations in blow distance and letoff, from one note to another, can be felt. I coordinate its use with a key dip block, going back and forth, according to the needs of the piano.

    After key dip is mostly done, I put the shim (penny or plastic) on top of the cloth punching. When I press the key down, the shim takes up the space of aftertouch (and then some) and the hammer should clearly block against the strings. When I continue to press the key down, I feel for the amount of pressure to "pop" the hammer through letoff and see it drop. When going from key to key fairly quickly, especially as a final check when things are getting close, the amount of pressure to pop through letoff can be very consistent. I use the same shim for whites and sharps, getting the same feel of aftertouch. Obviously, if it goes through too easily you need to add a punching, and if it takes too much hard squeezing to get letoff, you need to take something out. I'm of the school that thinks minor variations in key dip are less important than a very even aftertouch, if there are any compromises that need to be made along the way.

    The reason that it's variable is that you can use a lighter touch, which produces a deeper aftertouch, or you can use a firm touch to pop it through, which results in a skinnier aftertouch. As long as all the keys feel the same. And, as mentioned once by Richard West when we were discussing his Grand Action Regulation book, he doesn't much trust shim methods because it's hard to feel when the hammer just "kisses" the string, resulting in an uneven result, when trying to use a shim of the exact target thickness. When using a thicker shim than your target aftertouch amount, the firmer touch can be very even. I have never used the shim by feeling resistance as it's pulled out, but I suspect that it's along the same idea. With my (and Renner's) .050" gauge, I suspect that with a firmer touch at letoff we are probably achieving the .040 aftertouch amount that's been mentioned.

    Does any of that make any sense? Thanks for listening. Fascinating chain.

    -------------------------------------------
    Kathy Smith
    Anaheim CA
    714-904-5408
    -------------------------------------------




  • 30.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-30-2015 15:27
    Hey Kathy -
    Just because I'm confused doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.  
    (Actually, the most fascinating part of this thread is how terrified [and baffled] we all are to try modifying the subject).

    This is something I don't get:
    "the shim takes up the space of aftertouch (and then some) and the hammer should clearly block against the strings."
    Why should the hammer be blocking?  Not sure about that.

    Meanwhile, it's interesting to consider how many other steps affect (and can control) aftertouch:
    - letoff
    - key dip (of course)
    - hammer blow
    - keyframe glides

    And then there are those steps that won't affect aftertouch directly but rather the escapement, which can be confused with aftertouch:
    - jack position
    - rep lever ht
    - drop

    I'm sure I'm wrong, but don't have time at the moment to find my mistakes.  I'll wait for someone else to have the fun.

    It's very hot.


    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 31.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-30-2015 16:40
    Hi, David,

    You're right, and good question. I had to get out an action model to remind myself clearly what's going on. I usually do this aftertouch as a final polishing of the regulation, in the piano of course. As I make the last pass to refine key dip and aftertouch, I'm sitting in front of the piano looking between the hammer flange line and the pin block bottom, with a good light pointed at the hammers so I can see them drop.

    I've been doing this so long, I forgot how my viewpoint affected this. The hammer isn't really blocking against the string, as you suspected, because we haven't changed letoff. The fact that the shim takes up the space where letoff and drop should occur is what stops the hammer. The hammer, as I watch it now on the action model, gets stalled right BEFORE it touches the string; the stop is so positive that it feels just like blocking. Good catch. I couldn't see from my seated viewpoint that the hammer wasn't actually touching and blocking against the string, and forgot what was really happening. I guess that's a good proof that this method, done as described, feels just like the familiar feeling of a blocking hammer.

    And the discussion about the different thicknesses of shim, I think was addressed with the comment about varying how hard you need to push (gently, or hard) to temporarily squish the cloth punching and get through letoff; that's what varies your chosen amount of aftertouch with this method. On most concert grands, I use the .050" shim and, with normal blow and key dip for those pianos, I push fairly firmly to make letoff happen. A lighter touch would produce deeper aftertouch, which as has been mentioned here, can feel "boggy", too deep, "swimming", etc. I haven't changed out cloth punchings, usually just working with what manufacturers put in, but it wouldn't make a difference to me. Once your finger and sense of touch adapt to what's in front of you, you choose how much aftertouch to achieve and then make them all the same. If I want a smaller amount of aftertouch, I don't switch shims, I just "pop" through letoff with a firmer push. Many really good instructors have mentioned that your own body and senses are your best tools - I won't argue with them!

    Getting back to our original thread topic, if an artist mentions anything that makes you suspect aftertouch is too deep or shallow for their particular senses, then it's already super even and you can just make a really small change in all the capstans/blow distance, very quickly and consistently, either up or down. And temporary, compared to the length of time it would take to fool with punchings, and can quickly be put back for the next artist.

    I'll have to go watch Rick Baldassin's grand regulation class again while we're in Denver, and see how he describes the use of the white plastic Renner tool. Could be I've gone my own way with it, but I think it's the same idea. Maybe he's reading some of these posts and could chime in too.

    -------------------------------------------
    Kathy Smith
    Anaheim CA
    714-904-5408
    -------------------------------------------




  • 32.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-31-2015 14:01
    I think we need to look a little beyond aftertouch per se in trying to piece together what pianists tell us and ask for in the area of what seems to be key dip. For instance, I've found on a couple occasions that comments of a typically vague sort ("not enough definition" and the like) can trace to jack position under the knuckle, where simply adjusting all of them to be farther under (just doing 1/2 turn or so to all of them) makes the difference. 

    I certainly agree with the sentiment that we need to cultivate our sense of touch, and get away from simply trying to follow recipes - not that the recipes aren't helpful. In the end, we have to take what we hear, ask some questions, and then feel the piano in order to try to make sense of what is being asked of us. The first principle is that we should always take feedback seriously, but with a very fertile imagination as to how to interpret it in practical terms.

    Going back to the original topic, I consider myself as the advocate for the piano, and the main responsible party in all the circumstances where I am the lead technician caring for the piano. Through experience, I know how to prep the piano in the fundamental ways so that it will serve the basic needs of a wide variety of pianists, and the particular hall (a 2000 seat hall is far different from a 300 seat). So while I definitely respond to requests and feedback, I am VERY conservative in what I am willing to do.

    In terms of voicing, my approach in trying to meet requests is generally as follows: To make hammers brighter I file with very fine paper/film (I mostly use 9 and 15 micron film, about the equivalent of 600 - 1500 grit paper), and/or apply up to a few drops of acrylic/acetone on the strike point, very shallow (I might only dip a piece of wire in the solution and lay it on the "grooves"). To make them mellow, I use very fine quilting needles (the finest I can find, #10 and #12 - but don't count on the numbers to be consistent). I am now using the 5 needle (straight line) tool Jurgen sells, with the needles protruding about 3 mm. Insertion into the grooves, straight down, or between grooves for una corda, very controlled insertions. Start with one insertion straight down, not quite buried. Then move to fully inserted, and to 3 insertions per groove, 1:30, 12, 10:30, straight in and out. It is conceivable I might do some deep shoulder voicing in some sections, but that would be pretty rare for prep for an individual.

    All of this is assuming excellent travel/square/mating of hammers. But the basic point is that I take responsibility myself for setting the limits. If that should ever get me fired, so be it. Hasn't happened in 30+ years, so I'm not particularly worried about being assertive and holding my ground (in a very polite and understanding way). After all, this is just one of hundreds of performers for this instrument. I'd rather all of them found it acceptable than try to make it so every single one loves it (I've resigned myself to the fact that reactions will vary a lot - you can't take it personally).

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    -------------------------------------------




  • 33.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Posted 05-30-2015 15:37
    - If you start with .040" material, how do you set up for anything less than .040? -By starting with thinner material, such as .030", which most players would find a little too little aftertouch, I think...but not all. I'm still trying to get clear about the best choices, compounded by thicker or thinner cloth punchings, or Crescendo felt punchings. - I'm not clear about the part where you're gluing-on punchings to estimate the add-ons -If, say, the .040" plus .010" doesn't allow escapement, but the .040" plus .005" does, then a .005" punching gets me closer to .040" aftertouch without blocking. The next test will tell me whether to add .003" or not. My intention is to never have to remove punchings, just to add thinner ones. - The purpose of the 365 gram weight is: a) to test the escapement resistance?, or b) to apply consistent pressure on key from one note to next? -To apply consistent pressure from note to note. - Do you remove the naturals (when setting accidental dip) purely for ease of access? -Yes. - Do you use same aftertouch spec for naturals and accidentals? -Yes, but I'm open to suggestions for variation. ------------------------------------------- Ed Sutton Editor Piano Technicians Journal ed440@me.com 704-536-7926 -------------------------------------------


  • 34.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Posted 05-29-2015 20:26
    I don't think Kevin Fortenberry is wrong in thinking: "a little extra aftertouch is not necessarily better."

    Regulating for any extra aftertouch than is necessary for a grand piano's action to function always reduces the action's response and playability. However, the system needs to somehow be in balance--there are situations where a little extra aftertouch is necessary to make the piano feel right to the pianist during playing. This routinely happens with overweight hammers and the resultant saturation levels that occur throughout the action system. When the system is so severely overloaded, there is a disproportionate difference in hammer-impact vs. key-impact timing on loud blows [compared to softer dynamics] = the keys make a solid impact before the strings have a chance to sound, which makes the impact feel harder than it really is (i.e., pianists are pressing the keys for longer than is necessary). Increasing aftertouch will help improve the key-impact experienced during loud playing; it comes at a cost(s), but that is one approach used to compensate for a problem that is caused elsewhere in the system.

    A better approach to that specific problem would be to increase the amount of aftertouch via the compressibility of the felts (i.e., use softer front-rail felts to increase the amount of "after-touch" used specifically during loud in-the-key playing).
    -------------------------------------------
    Bradley Snook
    Wien
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  • 35.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-30-2015 01:34
    Hi, David

    I was not suggesting that tight letoff, minimal drop, and minimal aftertouch are desirable. I was saying that when a pianist complains about "shallow touch" when our dip blocks say it is not that this might be the reason for it.

    A very aggressive regulation which assumes that letoff should be whisper-thin to get that last scintilla of power, drop should be barely a twitch, and aftertouch has to be minimal to avoid blocking, can feel awfully tight and, ironically, uncontrollable, especially if the very hard Wurzen punchings are also used. It also gets a piano within a whisker of double-striking, especially if today's fashion of having hammer flanges as free as possible so long as side play is avoided is also indulged.

    Likewise, if checking is too low, fast loud repetition will fail, but if checking is super-high, fast repetition cannot be loud enough. I think that this is another example where someone assumes that if high checking is good, VERY high checking must surely be better. And likewise that if tight letoff is good, letoff right to the brink of blocking must be a sign of REAL QUALITY.

    Of course one can go too far in the other direction, too, with sloppy deep aftertouch, and too much drop (kathunk,). It comes down to a matter of taste, in order to decide where between the extremes one thinks a piano should be. If concert pianists consistently seem to like the feel of the action and to enjoy playing the piano, one assumes that the necessary compromises have been sorted out fairly well.

    And of course they then usually don't make exorbitant demands .... well, in my experience.

    -------------------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

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  • 36.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-26-2015 16:05
    Robert, this is EXACTLY the kind of scenario that motivated me to make the fairly strong remarks recently on this forum--the topic was primarily the whole 440? 440.5? 441? 442?
    The same realities generally apply, regardless of what the "special requests" are that are coming in. 
    There are so many situations/scenarios that we could not possibly cover them all, and the last two posts are a VERY good start to answering your questions. 
    My 2 cents worth is: 
    Get with your piano faculty/director/whoever makes the primary decisions, propose to them what you believe the "boundaries" need to be regarding these things that are burning you out (pick you battles by the way. Probably 1-a standard pitch or a range thereof 2-voicing boundaries. 3-prepared piano. -probably the big 3--)
    Anyway, chances are if the ones paying the bills & those responsible for the success of your music program will PROBABLY agree that the madness must stop and piano hammers will be saved/prolonged greatly. And your sanity level with go WAY UP!!!
    I will be glad to share our "unwritten policy" on how far we are willing to go with "sweetening up the hammers" and conversely "brightening up a tad"

    The bottom line is: NOT MUCH. 
    If ALL our piano faculty AND our director AND our two staff pianists are all happy with our 3 primary recital pianos--there is very little we will do to satisfy odd requests. Don't get me wrong I will ALWAYS listen intently..do all I can to understand what it is they are asking for--nearly always touch up a hammer or two or four, etc--especially if it NEEDS IT or if could already use the touch up. But this is NOT what you are describing.  So take some deep breaths, get things out on the table in a very kind/articulate way--work with your "powers that be" , and let go of a LOT of this useless stress!
    Kevin
      





  • 37.  RE: Limits to what artists can demand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-28-2015 00:19
    There is so much art and skill in understanding what an artist is asking for. Each situation is as unique as the people. 

    I do believe the conversation with the owner of the piano is the way to begin setting a piano service policy into form. Has anyone here written out a formal description for one? If so please post it.

    Many arts organizations have a difficult time deciding who their "customer" really is. And this leads to much organizational disfunction.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    -------------------------------------------