Hi, David and all,
Here are a couple of tidbits relative to this chain, which has turned into a discussion on even aftertouch, and how much.
I have been using something that is loosely like the "go/no-go" or aftertouch gauges or shims that have been mentioned. An important point about that is that it doesn't need to specify any one aftertouch amount, it is quite variable as a single tool.
I used a penny with a hole drilled in it for many years, after seeing it in a PTG class - maybe going back 30 years to Jack Krefting? I don't recall, it's been too long. And recently I switched to a tool that comes from Rick Baldassin's huge hands-on regulation class, the one with all the action models. I took the class years ago, and recently helped him get his class set up late one night. He gave me a little plastic tool with the Renner logo on it, looks like a white plastic tongue depressor with a slot at one end. I measured it, and it's exactly .050", and maybe by coincidence, so is my old penny. (I found some older style key top material that is also .050", for making more tools, although newer stuff seems to be .070", way too thick.)
I don't recall the exact description Rick uses to demonstrate its use in class, but here's how I use it:
Only after samples were done, regulation is mostly done, hammer line is very even, drop and letoff are done and very even, does this concept work. It is pretty exact, and slight variations in blow distance and letoff, from one note to another, can be felt. I coordinate its use with a key dip block, going back and forth, according to the needs of the piano.
After key dip is mostly done, I put the shim (penny or plastic) on top of the cloth punching. When I press the key down, the shim takes up the space of aftertouch (and then some) and the hammer should clearly block against the strings. When I continue to press the key down, I feel for the amount of pressure to "pop" the hammer through letoff and see it drop. When going from key to key fairly quickly, especially as a final check when things are getting close, the amount of pressure to pop through letoff can be very consistent. I use the same shim for whites and sharps, getting the same feel of aftertouch. Obviously, if it goes through too easily you need to add a punching, and if it takes too much hard squeezing to get letoff, you need to take something out. I'm of the school that thinks minor variations in key dip are less important than a very even aftertouch, if there are any compromises that need to be made along the way.
The reason that it's variable is that you can use a lighter touch, which produces a deeper aftertouch, or you can use a firm touch to pop it through, which results in a skinnier aftertouch. As long as all the keys feel the same. And, as mentioned once by Richard West when we were discussing his Grand Action Regulation book, he doesn't much trust shim methods because it's hard to feel when the hammer just "kisses" the string, resulting in an uneven result, when trying to use a shim of the exact target thickness. When using a thicker shim than your target aftertouch amount, the firmer touch can be very even. I have never used the shim by feeling resistance as it's pulled out, but I suspect that it's along the same idea. With my (and Renner's) .050" gauge, I suspect that with a firmer touch at letoff we are probably achieving the .040 aftertouch amount that's been mentioned.
Does any of that make any sense? Thanks for listening. Fascinating chain.
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Kathy Smith
Anaheim CA
714-904-5408
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2015 13:13
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Limits to what artists can demand
Ed -
Some obsessive clarification sought:
- If you start with .040" material, how do you set up for anything less than .040?
- I'm not clear about the part where you're gluing-on punchings to estimate the add-ons
- The purpose of the 365 gram weight is: a) to test the escapement resistance?, or b) to apply consistent pressure on key from one note to next?
- Do you remove the naturals (when setting accidental dip) purely for ease of access?
- Do you use same aftertouch spec for naturals and accidentals?
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David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-29-2015 16:30
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Limits to what artists can demand
Kevin,
You can get styrene plastic sheets at a good hobby shop. .040" might be a good thickness to start. It is perhaps a little thin, but I like it.
It cuts easily to make "Y" shaped aftertouch gauges. You can glue on punchings to make quick test gauges to estimate what to add to reach.040" aftertouch (or your chosen dimension) A thin punching on one end of a double Y makes a go/no go gauge.
I have a 365 gram weight which I sit gently on the key. The goal is to set aftertouch so that the jack will just escape when i tap the weight with my capstan tool. (I believe i got this from Jon Hartman) This gives very accurate aftertouch. In a hurry i may set every 4th or 5th key this way, and do the in betweens by feel.
I also prefer to remove the naturals and set after touch on the accidentals with the naturals out of the way, then replace the naturals and complete the aftertouch.
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Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-29-2015 08:52
From: Kevin Fortenberry
Subject: Limits to what artists can demand
David, Susan, and all,
In response to that last post by David, although not on the topic of "limits...";
I wanted to refer to what the Fazioli expert Technician from New York said when he came here to brief me on their regulation specifics, so that I would be able to do a good job following their tight protocol as far as regulation on our new Fazioli 278 (he was from originally from Italy btw).
He said, "you doan vant to set it up with too much aftertouch. Many musicians do not like. Especially Jazz."
So between this, and what several other techs have taught at PTG Seminars, it just made me more "aware" that a little extra aftertouch is not necessarily better, unless you actually need it to make the action work well. And it may in fact be a slight negative in many cases.
So am I thinking wrong on this?
Have others of you heard/experienced similar things to this?
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Kevin Fortenberry
Registered Piano Technician
Lubbock TX
806-778-3962
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