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Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

  • 1.  Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Posted 04-20-2015 12:41
    I havea group 8 Yamaha U1's in our collection that were built between 1965 and 1978. Black lacquer with rubbed finishes. I would like to do some refreshing of the cabinets over the summer.  Mostly small dings and a few small gouges and corner scuffs that get down to white wood.  I'm looking for good resources for developing the skills I need.  The biggest challenge, I think, will be that of blending the finish of any repaired areas into the surrounding areas.  There's nothing in this group that needs a re-spray.  Any recommendations on where to look for learning materials?

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    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-721-9699
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  • 2.  RE: Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-20-2015 13:38
    Are you sure it's lacquer and not Polyester? Try some lacquer thinner or acetone on an unexposed spot (e.g., cheeks behind fall board) and see if the material dissolves at all. It's helpful to know, as if it is poly, you can use lacquer thinner to clean off various things like the paint that tends to be on various places that have scraped against doorways or walls, easier than any other removal method I have tried.

    In any case, what I do is use black lacquer from an automotive refinish store (what I have happens to be a quart of acrylic lacquer, which takes a special thinner that's hard to find - finally got a gallon on line). I let some evaporate enough to be thick - just put it in a little jar and leave the lid off a while - then thin as needed by adding stuff out of the can. At this point, the can itself is old enough that it is pretty thick.

    I use an artist brush, short bristle, and just paint it on the spots and gouges. I do this once a year, running through various pianos without respect to whether they are poly or lacquer. It looks fine - not perfectly professional, but an amazing improvement over all the white wood. I do it on the concert instruments as well. Just use the least material possible, try to put it just on the white wood with minimal material over the existing finish. 
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "I am only interested in music that is better than it can be played." Schnabel








  • 3.  RE:Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-20-2015 14:10
    Very helpful- I have been thinking about coming up with something like this also.
    One further question along this line:
    I will be needing to apply some type of black lacquer or black paint to a music desk I am replacing on one of our older practice grands. Not terribly concerned about "matching" the current piano finish (what is left of it 😕) but just want something I can do myself like in my garage, etc--and than I can rub out with steel wool to at least look like a piano finish. This is plain raw wood so I need to prime really well also. I could easily just use spray paint to prime/fill in the wood grain but I'm concerned about compatibility--please advise. Kevin

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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
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  • 4.  RE: Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-20-2015 14:23
    Also just to clarify, I would really like to find something brush-able. I guess I could get with Ruth Phillips and just use spray cans, but I keep thinking with all the new "self-leveling" products, etc--there must be something new and great out there for smaller stuff like this.
    Kevin

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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
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  • 5.  RE: Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Posted 04-20-2015 14:53
    Hi again, Kevin,

    I have a quart of Watco Brushing Lacquer, which I had tinted black at the hardware store, and some of which I have dispensed into 5 nail polish type bottles (with a little agitating bead inside!) that I found online.  Though the lacquer is labeled "gloss", I get a pretty flat result when I apply it from the bottle.  It does polish up nicely, though.

    The skill I lack, for which reason I started this thread, is matching the final finish of the repaired area to what surrounds it, when more than just a dot of lacquer is needed.

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    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-721-9699
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  • 6.  RE:Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-20-2015 16:44
    Floyd, thanks so much for all of this. Very helpful. I did think about paste wood filler as a starting place, so I'm thinking this is a really good idea. I think your Mohawk idea is great too. I bought some locally (paste wood filler) & did not like working with it as much as the "real stuff" from when I worked for a piano rebuilder years ago. SO, perhaps I'll start by going to the Mohawk website & just buying what I need from them, & then work from there. It's also great to know this filler comes in black. Thanks again Floyd!
    Kevin

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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
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  • 7.  RE: Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-20-2015 17:40
    Matching the finish depends on what you have to start with. If a satin, you can usually get away with 0000 steel wool, lubricated with a bit of soapy water, rubbed in the same direction as the original finish has. If gloss, you can often get away with just using some Flitz polish to blend. Or you can go through grits of  micro finishing paper. The link is to a flexible fabric backed product with abrasives down to 1 micron, which is used for polishing scratched watch crystals or bus windows (they say CDs as well, though I haven't tried that yet). 30 micron is roughly equivalent to 400 grit paper. I have used it on keytops with good results. 
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "Since everything is in our heads, we had better not lose them." Coco Chanel






  • 8.  RE:Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-20-2015 14:42

    Just FYI,

    Konig has three ebony aerosols.  One is very dark, the same shade as Intensive Black.

    The next is a little greyer.  Both are medium sheens.

    Third is a flat black we had matched for the new sprayed satin ebony polyesters.

    They are nitrocellulose or acrylic based.

    I like Fred's protocol for maintenance. 

    Ruth Zeiner

     






  • 9.  RE: Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-20-2015 19:12
    Thanks Ruth. I just tried the can of Konig I have had stashed for a "rainy day" on a piano bench I had already sanded/prepped to re-paint. My can says "Covering Lacquer PF"  and then 372 in small numbers beside that. And then Jet Black 758 below that.
    Im guessing this is one of the satin ones--not the flat.
    Perhaps this is my answer if I want it to look nice.
    Best, Kevin

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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
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  • 10.  RE: Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Posted 04-20-2015 14:47
    Kevin, I'm experimenting with this too.  I have some instruments that need some serious finish work in our collection without the budget for farming it out.  I'm not in a hurry, but I want to move the skills along.  So I'm building and trying to properly finish a piano bench using baltic birch.  I'm discovering some ways NOT to proceed.

    I started by applying a coat of Rust-oleum specialty lacquer (black) from Home Depot.  I decided I would need to go through far too many cans of that, spraying and sanding down between, to get as smooth a finish as I wanted, given the baltic birch starting point.  Then the comedy begins. 

    I tried putting down a layer of West System epoxy, leveling it off with a squeegee, but when it came time to sand a few days later, the sandpaper gummed up too quickly for the approach to seem practical

    I tried putting down a layer of basic Bondo body filler, but maybe I mixed it wrong, because trying to sand it after the recommended curing time gummed up my sandpaper almost instantly.  Besides, I didn't manage to apply a thin enough coat, so there was an awful lot of dust generated when I returned to it with my orbital sander a few days later using 80 grit, and by the time I was beginning to see things reasonable smooth, I was seeing some bare wood. 

    I ran to the auto supply store and grabbed some solvent based glazing and spot putty and applied a coat to the whole surface.  It cracked badly as it dried, so I ended up sanding most of that off.

    I flipped the sheet over and started fresh.  I applied some Mohawk black grain filler, with no undercoat.  I followed that with some of the Rust-oleum aerosol lacquer.  I haven't sanded that yet but I'm interested to see what I get.

    Three more products look interesting to me.  Mohawk makes a black primer for wood (aerosol only), which might be a better starting point.  I have an HVLP system, so a gallon of their colored lacquer (black, pre-thinned for spraying) might be a better choice than buying more aerosol lacquer.  And they have a product actually called Piano Lacquer, also in the gallon, that allows more build than their Finisher's Choice Lacquer, which I bought for another project last year.

    Good thing I'm only working with a rectangle of plywood thus far!


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    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-721-9699
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  • 11.  RE: Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Posted 04-20-2015 21:08
    TuirbineAire HVLP spray unit. CrystaLac waterborne finish. Modeling Paste for dings.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 12.  RE: Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Posted 04-20-2015 21:09
    Some burn-in too.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 13.  RE: Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-20-2015 23:14
    Where do you get the "Modeling paste"? What sort of compound is it? Does it shrink over time?

    Thick super glue can be used to build up some little dings. It takes a little skill to just get the correct amount. You don't want to overfill. Better to leave it below the surface just enough that the thick lacquer brushed on brings it level. Sand it after it cures and brush on the appropriate lacquer. Then rub it out later.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 14.  RE: Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Posted 04-21-2015 07:06
    Modeling Paste is available from an art supply store. It is usually ground marble in an acrylic medium. Gesso is also good for pin holes or pores that escaped the pore filler. They are very stable, proof is their use on canvas. The Modeling Paste has a short shelf life so don't buy it in large bottles, unless you can figure out how to not let it harden once opened for months on end (just as with any putty-like material).

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    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 15.  RE:Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-21-2015 11:00
    I like your suggestions, Jon. I'm assuming modeling paste comes in black. My wife & I mix our own Gesso for her art canvases.
    I'm particularly interested in water-based & water-borne ideas. I'm thinking these will be easily tinted using the really dark black tinting that we get from Pianotek.
    Jon, is this CrystaLac water-borne available in black already? Can it be purchased in say a quart size? I'm guessing it would need to be sprayed with an HVLP Sprayer.
    Also, has anyone tried any of the
    Cheap-o Harbor Freight HVLP sprayers? Probably not a great idea but I sure do not want to invest an hundred bucks on something used once or twice a year.
    Thanks! Kevin

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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
    -------------------------------------------





  • 16.  RE:Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-21-2015 11:17
    CrystaLac is available on Amazon. Excellent! It's $23 bucks for a quart jar, looks like a screw on plastic lid (bonus!) and it says it's brush able.
    Being water-borne it sounds easily tintable.

    UPDATE on bench spraying with the Konig:
    LOTS OF FUMES!! 😳. Great results but it will need several coats. PERFECT for certain projects-- but for old practice benches, EHHH...too much hassle and fumes, which is becoming a very real issue with the school's policies becoming much more strict.
    I will definitely keep this handy though.
    Kevin

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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
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  • 17.  RE: Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Posted 04-21-2015 15:43
    CrystaLac Premium Gloss Black stands up to hi gloss poly. I get mine from McFeely's, the square drive screw people. Scotch Brite too. 

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    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 18.  RE: Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-21-2015 16:01
    Excellent--thanks Jon!

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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
    -------------------------------------------




  • 19.  RE: Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Posted 04-22-2015 11:47
    Jon,

    What do you mean when you say "stands up to hi gloss poly?"

    Thanks.

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    Alan McCoy
    Spokane WA
    ahm2352@gmail.com
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  • 20.  RE: Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Posted 04-23-2015 07:25
    >What do you mean when you say "stands up to hi gloss poly?"

    Matches in color and sheen pretty darn good.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 21.  RE:Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-22-2015 13:27

    Hi Kevin,

    Konig aerosols aren't really intended to be used for full coats; it's touch-up.

    Jon's suggestions are much more appropriate for applying full coats.  Konig

    is meant to be applied in very light coats, in layers if necessary but still with

    a very light touch.  Even the acrylic we have matched to Yamaha is best used

    with at least an airbrush. 

    Every situation is different, and it's best to select product and method according

    to the need.  Sometimes just hiding the white underneath is enough, and

    sometimes even orange peel is awful. 

    Hope to see a lot of you at the MARC,

    Ruth Zeiner

     

     






  • 22.  RE: Finish Touch Up/Rejuvenation - Black Lacquer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-27-2015 13:57
    Hi Ruth (Phillips) Zeiner! Thanks for being so gracious and helpful as always! I called and spoke with the other Ruth, (very helpful!) , and ordered some touch up markers etc last week. (I hope MARC went really well!)  I'm also planning to order your $ 339 touch up kit as soon as I can. 
    Thanks again, Kevin

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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
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