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Piano wire analysis

  • 1.  Piano wire analysis

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-19-2014 11:14
    To all,

    Sometime ago I asked a friend of mine who is in the business of element analysis to do a study on the difference between regular piano wire and Pure Sound wire. The attached link is to a blog where he posted his findings. The "bad" wire is the Pure Sound that was prone to break. That was the only way he distinguished between the two wire samples. It is not meant to pass any judgement on the wires quality beyond identification.

     http://wp.me/p4265s-bN

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    Keith Kopp
    Orem UT
    801-422-3400
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  • 2.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-19-2014 22:39
    It's hard to decipher. My best stab is that it sort of implies that the main difference might be more in the process of making the wire than in its chemical composition. It doesn't say so outright, but there are hints in that direction. IOW, the pure sound may not be drawn as many times, or the annealing isn't done right, or something of that nature. Interesting to see that kind of microscopic analysis being done, though.






  • 3.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Posted 11-19-2014 23:15
    I've seen a number of these types of analyses go by, with high
    resolution spectrum displays and microscopic exploration and
    measurement. They all sort of kind of hint at and suggest something
    without a clear and positive indication of practical use. It's
    gratifying that someone is interested enough to pursue these things at
    considerable time and expense, but the results are usually quite vague
    and speculative. For instance, would Pure Sound's tensile strength be
    increased by another couple of draws or a different tempering schedule,
    or both? That would be practical and useful information. I have so many
    questions about things I'm not equipped to chase down answers to, I hate
    to see research work done that doesn't produce anything useful in answers.
    Ron N




  • 4.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-21-2014 00:55
    Great stuff Keith, Thanks for posting it.

    I forwarded the URL to a guy who doing some wire tests that might help all of us with the issues around different wire types now available. Might make a good Journal article.
    Ed

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 5.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Member
    Posted 11-21-2014 10:03
    I would like to see a discussion about the effects of high humidity and string rust on piano wire and where we should focus string inspections. For example I had several pianos that had been in storage or in very high moisture situations (ie by the river)
    Two were grands and the strings broke at the hitch pin loop because rust ate through the wire that was sitting on felt. Obviously this was a red flag that more were at risk but is there any way to tell how far rust has compromised the string and the danger
    is lurking ? At what point should we advise a total restring ? How much if any pitting is acceptable ? Is it possible for a string to break in the middle of the speaking length or are breaks confined to the tuning pin and hitch pin areas ?

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 6.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-22-2014 16:48
    And, while we're at it, let's see if we can get the guy to study samples of frozen wire. 

     There was an article a long time ago in the Journal and I have used frozen wire on occasion.  The cryogenic people have metallurgical analysis of frozen wire, and anecdotal evidence of improvements in performance of some musical instruments, and audio equipment as well as drill bits and such but it would be interesting to have more detailed info about the use of frozen piano wire.





  • 7.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-22-2014 20:47
    The guy who used to live in my neck of the woods but moved down south who built a "Mammoth Piano" once froze an old upright to see if the tone would improve. I am not making this up! He even got the Everett Herald to do an article about it.

    Before I get interested in this someone will have to make a convincing case for what mechanism of material science would be involved. Explain what freezing will do to the arrangement of atomic bonds in the material. What would freezing do to change these bonds?

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 8.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-23-2014 01:00
    Sub-freezing (e.g. 0 degrees Fahrenheit) or cryogenic temperatures will convert retained austenite to martensite in steel alloys.  Martensite is more brittle and considerably stronger than austenite.  Do a Google search on "retained austenite" for more information.

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    John Rhodes
    Vancouver WA
    360-721-0728
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  • 9.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-24-2014 03:00
    So, John, what would you expect that to do to the sound? Anything? Anything useful? ------------------------------------------- David Stocker Olympia WA Lingua Latina mortua est -------------------------------------------


  • 10.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Posted 11-25-2014 01:33
    Disregarding the unsubstantiated difference it makes in piano tone and
    tuning stability, it is reported that cutting tools (mill, lathe) so
    treated wear less quickly and so last longer in use. If that's so, it
    would be quite handy to the manufacturing industry and right on down to
    the home workshop. I haven't seen cryogenically enhanced tools
    advertised that I remember. Seems like a natural if it's true.
    Ron N




  • 11.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2014 03:41
    You are exactly right, Ron.  Here is one company that is doing it.  The link is going to their musical instruments services, but you can use the menu to navigate to other industries they serve, as well, including the tooling industry.

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    Keith Akins
    Akins Pianocraft
    Menominee MI
    906-863-7387
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  • 12.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2014 15:51
    Ron N wrote <I haven't seen cryogenically enhanced tools>
    But I have friends who have had their brass instruments crogenically treated.  Reports are that the horns become more free blowing, and have enhanced tone. 
    Sheffey Gregory, RPT
    Gregory's Piano Service
    423.614.5001





  • 13.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Posted 11-27-2014 18:54
    I went looking, and found more instances of cryogenic treatment of
    cutting tools, so it's apparently more common than I knew. Unlike a
    subjective impression of the sound of an instrument, manufacturers keep
    objective track of the mileage (number of operation cycles) they get out
    of punch dies and cutting tools. If the treated tools don't produce
    enough more cycles to more than offset the cost of treating them, the
    treatment isn't cost effective and won't be used again. The fact that
    some manufacturers continue to use cryogenic treatment means that their
    numbers indicate it is an effective treatment for their particular use
    and they get more cycles/$ from their tooling, which increases profit.
    Can't beat that.
    Ron N




  • 14.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-23-2014 00:02
    I no longer have access to the reports -- if they even still exist -- but we ran some samples of bass strings in the late 1980s. I don't remember all of the details of the tests now but there was no discernable difference that could be heard or measured (using Baldwin's FFT analyzer) between these and standard bass strings.

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    Delwin Fandrich
    Olympia WA
    360-515-0119
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  • 15.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Posted 11-23-2014 13:04
    The "pitch", as it were, was that treatment of music wire by extreme low
    temperature made pianos that never needed tuning. This goes to the
    mistaken belief that pianos go out of tune because strings stretch over
    time, and ignores all reaction of wood to humidity changes. That alone
    ought to make it obvious nonsense. Falcone did some testing of freezing
    strings, but I don't recall that they ever released any results or
    conclusions. Does anyone know of any reports?

    I think it's just yet another mythological magic bullet that makes
    everything in a piano perfect by the simple addition of one single item
    or process. Kimball processed (cooked) pianos in their Mezzo Thermonial
    Stabilizer (for unsurpassed tonal stability), and we all know how
    astonishingly stable Kimballs were as a result. Iron pinblocks for
    eternally tight tuning pins were another attempt. As simple as dipping a
    set of strings in liquid nitrogen is, it would be a very easy way to
    make all pianos wonderful in one cheap and simple step. If it worked, it
    would be in all the brochures by now as a marketing point.
    Ron N




  • 16.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Member
    Posted 11-23-2014 16:15
    I read that the reason Strad violins have a unique sound to them had to do with a stand of wood that had been superfrozen and it did something to the cells/fibers.
    Perhaps the same thing happens with piano wire. I would try testing the theory  but my freezer is full at the moment.

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 17.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-23-2014 21:35
    Freezer? Do I hear ice cream calling me? Maybe I should eat the ice cream and make room so I can freeze my wires!

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 18.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Posted 11-24-2014 05:38
    The Strad tone is supposed to be related to the Varnish he used - as well as the wood.   Michael (UK)

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    Michael Gamble
    semi retired
    Brighton
    01273813612
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  • 19.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Posted 11-24-2014 09:13
    I believe it has been shown that the sound of the word "Stradivari" has a remarkable effect on the human cerebral cortex.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    704-536-7926
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  • 20.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Posted 11-24-2014 09:39
    <I believe it has been shown that the sound of the word "Stradivari" has a remarkable effect on the human cerebral cortex.


    As does the word "Steinway"...we are pack animals

    ji

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 21.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Posted 11-24-2014 09:55
    Or flock.
    Ron N




  • 22.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-24-2014 12:44
    This article describes a blindfold test of ten violin soloists' ability to distinguish old violins from new. 






  • 23.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Posted 11-24-2014 13:38
    The soloists were brave and secure souls to put their opinions to the
    test in public. I wonder if the manufacturers of the varnish used on the
    modern instruments were in attendance. (ha!) Now, if only such tests
    taught anyone anything.
    Ron N




  • 24.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-24-2014 18:24
    Almost all top violin makers make their own varnish.  It's part of the process and they spend quite a bit of time and energy getting what they think is right.  

    These kinds of tests are interesting, though I agree I'm not sure what they tell you.  It may also be interesting to note that modern violin makers do learn quite a bit by studying the structure of the great violins of the past, or so they tell me.  

    What it probably tells you is that while there is much to be learned from the instrument makers of the past, modern instrument makers are certainly capable of making high performing instruments.  I don't see this article as an indictment of Stradavari or other like instruments of the past or any evidence that the reputation has no basis.  It does suggest, like anything else, that instruments of this period did vary in character if not quality--not surprising.  The overall trend is probably more significant than what happens on any one instrument.

    It is also worthwhile to note that with violins set up is very important.  Position of the bridge, the sound post and other things which can be adjusted influences the quality of the sound tremendously.  We don't really know how these were set up or whether there was any attempt to optimize them.  

    Also, different violinists might choose different set ups depending on their playing style.  These can be very personal instruments that way.

    Finally, and sort of as an aside, it was pointed out to me that violins can have their own individual resonances and problems with certain notes, or frequencies.  Just like a piano may have a certain frequency based impedance problem, violins, even the best ones, are not immune to these kinds of issues.    

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 25.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Posted 11-25-2014 01:24
    I assume the people who did these tests know how to set up their
    violins. I expect they even tuned them with the bridge in the right place.

    Actually, no, this didn't tell me any of the things you said. It told me
    that to get an honest appraisal of the sound of an instrument, the
    listener mustn't know its name.
    Ron N




  • 26.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-25-2014 01:57
    The setting up of a violin can be quite a personal thing and alter the tone to ones tonal tastes.  Bridge and soundposts are not rigidly affixed on violins, they can be moved around.  There may not be a "right" way, just a preferred way.  There's no way to determine if the setting up of one violin is exactly like another because the unique structure of the violin itself determines where things should go.  There's an interesting part of a film somewhere of Itzak Perlman having his violin "tuned" in this manner to change the tone to his own liking. Different types of strings can matter too.  It's an interesting test but not particularly telling.    

    I was using the more general "you", not you personally.  It may not have told you those things but it tells me there's more to setting up a blind test than simply putting a blindfold on someone.  What you mention is also true.    

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 27.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Posted 11-25-2014 08:49
    Yes, no two violins are the same - in characteristics or playability. The violinist often replaces his/her strings - the out-going ones having played themselves out, as it were. The Violist is the same. But the 'Cellist has yet another problem to deal with - similar in a way to the 'Killer 8ve'. - the WOLF note. My 'Cello has one around F# on the 'C' string - and I can find it an 8ve. higher on the 'G' string. The way I deal with it is with a 'Wolf Note Suppressor' which is a slotted brass tube encapsulating a hard rubber slitted core, all kept in place between the Bridge and the Tail-piece by a grub-screw and lock nut. Unfortunately this necessary positioning makes it impossible  to use a Tourte mute. But I wonder if the application of my Wolf note suppressor has any viability in experimentation of the so-called 'Killer 8ve'?   Michael  (UK)

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    Michael Gamble
    semi retired
    Brighton
    01273813612
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  • 28.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-24-2014 19:38
    To get back to pianos- All this talk about varnish brings up one of my long-held questions. What is the optimal soundboard finish? lacquer? polyurethane? varnish? doesn't matter?

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    Ted Kidwell, RPT
    California State University, Sacramento
    Capistrano Hall, rm. 153
    6000 J Street
    Sacramento, CA 95819-6015
    916.278.6737

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  • 29.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Posted 11-24-2014 19:54
    I doubt there is an optimal finish. My approach is to keep it light and
    thin. Three coats of lacquer, sanding between coats with 120 grit and
    FFF pumice does it for me. It's not a filled absolutely smooth finish,
    but it's adequate by my criteria, dries quickly without accumulating a
    lot of dust, and doesn't load the board down. Different opinions aren't
    far behind.
    Ron N




  • 30.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-24-2014 22:50
    I tend to agree with Ron here.  The material is less important than keeping it light.  I do the initial sanding to 220, one coat of thin shellac sealer, sand to 220, two thin coats of varnish sanding to 400 between.  Lacquer is fine too but I prefer to avoid spraying things when possible.  Personal preference.  

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 31.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Posted 11-25-2014 08:34
    When playing my S&S'A' I get a totally different concept of its qualities given my two following options: (1) Wearing my NHS Hearing Aids - and - (2) NOT wearing my NHS (National Health Service) Hearing Aids. That gives my age away I think! Why I'm retired &c. But the gist of these differing concepts remains true: "Beauty is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder (listener). The difference is such that I seriously wonder what my S&S actually DOES sound like!! Out with the Strad! Cue:  Melancholy music with one foot in the gutter... Michael(UK)

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    Michael Gamble
    semi retired
    Brighton
    01273813612
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  • 32.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-24-2014 17:22
    Well, I don't think anyone here -- and certainly not myself -- is claiming that cryogenic treatment of strings is a magic bullet the stature of Kimball's renowned Mezzo Thermoneal Stabilizer!  ;-)     However . . .

    It really is a matter of scientific thinking to expect that changing a variable may change (for better or worse) the end result.   Expecting no change in end result when an item in a process or recipe is changed is the same kind of magical thinking as to expect that changing nothing will randomly produce different results.   And, there are notable differences is some musical instruments.  My understanding is that the only difference betweens Haines top-of-the-line flute and their next one down is simply that the top one is frozen.  That being said, FWIW,  . . .

    The reason for one particular situation when I used cryogenically treated wire was for a piano duo who had limited time to have their twin SF-10 pianos restrung before going back on the road.  (They carried them in a specially built motor home).  I had the wire treated specifically in the thought that it could possibly be an additional factor in the strings reaching stability.  My scientific and ethical selves experienced great conflict as I would have loved to have done it to only one of these identical pianos.  Of course, I treated both the same.  My impression was that the pianos certainly stabilized quickly.  However, lacking actual A/B comparison, it's hard to say for sure . . .

    If Baldwin didn't notice any difference, it may be that either the difference was small or it affected a variable they weren't monitoring.  In any event, my suggestion that this may be worth looking into still stands . . . 

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    Keith Akins
    Akins Pianocraft
    Menominee MI
    906-863-7387
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  • 33.  RE: Piano wire analysis

    Posted 11-24-2014 17:51
    For reference only:
    http://wmshaynes.com/

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv
    [Visual Tuning Platform User]
    [iRCT & OnlyPure ]