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Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

  • 1.  Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2014 14:11
    Hello my many friends;

    We had a nice thread a couple years ago regarding pre hung Steinway ham-shanks.  I'm now trying them again and just hanging the new set on a '70's D we are rebuilding for a new concert hall.  I'm finding the hammers better hung straight up and down and traveling not too bad.  What I am finding to my discouragement is the very loose flange pinning doing the old school "swing-test".  I get 14-17 swings on many of them and it's the humid season here in the south. Only a few are falling in the 7-9 swings.

    what are you all finding these days, or do you use pre-bungs at all any more?

    Thanks
    Paul


    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Director of Piano Services
    School of Music
    813 Assembly St
    University of South Carolina
    Columbia, SC 29208
    pwilliams@mozart.sc.edu
    -------------------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Posted 09-03-2014 14:58
    Paul:

    I remember this loose pinning being the new Steinway method.  They talk of 1-gram of friction as the goal.  I never bought that theory nor do a lot of techs but I think that is their current thinking.

    dp

    -------------------------------------------
    David Porritt
    Caddo Mills TX
    903-269-3570
    -------------------------------------------




  • 3.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Posted 09-03-2014 15:20
    I believe that is their factory standard, and that M&H has a similar standard.
    No more counting swings.
    Check with Kent Webb or Ben Gacs at Steinway to be sure.


    -------------------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    Editor
    Piano Technicians Journal
    ed440@me.com
    704-536-7926
    -------------------------------------------




  • 4.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2014 15:21
    I have hung many sets of Steinway prehung hammers. I have been very pleased with most aspects of the product I received. The hammers, pinning, and traveling are great. The shanks and flanges are very high quality.  I have found pinning fairly consistently in the 2-3 gram range. There are always a few oddballs that I wind up re-pinning. I am not a particular fan of the pins they use. There is a little trough in the middle of the pin where it comes into contact with the birdseye. The idea is to prevent the pin walking out. I find the trough sometimes grabs the bushing cloth on the way out and damages it. Also, they seem to be very inconsistent in their hammer tail arcing. Sometimes it is a nice arc and sometimes it is nearly flat with a little curve at the end. I routinely re-arc all new Steinway sets. Lacquering is another story. I think I have only hung one set that I did not do some lacquering.  The factory lacquering is an excellent start. But every piano has different needs. Also, like all hammers, I polish the surface of the hammers. So these are "out of the box" hammers. They need some work.

    -------------------------------------------
    Ted Kidwell, RPT
    California State University, Sacramento
    Capistrano Hall, rm. 153
    6000 J Street
    Sacramento, CA 95819-6015
    916.278.6737

    -------------------------------------------




  • 5.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2014 15:27
    Paul, as others are chiming in--I do agree. My main point is, personally I would NOT re-pin the whole set!  Either go with them or try to improve them as I mentioned. If time is of the essence (when is it not!!??) you should just GO WITH IT!
    Kevin

    -------------------------------------------
    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
    -------------------------------------------




  • 6.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2014 15:19
    Paul,  Although MANY in the piano world are now saying that as long as there is no "play" in the flanges, more swings are now supposed to be acceptable. I'm not sure if I agree with that (as I'm sure most on this list will as well---and it will probably effect the touch a little.

     Here is what I have been doing for MANY YEARS now, after a long standing RPT friend of mine, who used to work in a piano factory, showed me this technique in an old piano repair manual. I would recommend trying this on a few flanges (like in the high treble maybe. It's pretty much the same re-sizing treatment as for damper guides, etc.)  Apply either 50/50 or 30/70 (which I much prefer--especially in your situation-more water, less alcohol) a mixture of alcohol and water to the test flanges. Lay them on the bench (normal temp and humidity is best) along with a small fan blowing (low speed) on them. Re-check your flanges in a few hours, but overnight is best to be sure. This MAY help significantly. If it does not--no harm done. Worst case scenario--you may have to re-pin a couple of flanges. 

    Notes: - denatured alcohol is my favorite because it is easier to mix. regular (isopropal will work fine, but since it is usually 70 percent to 30 percent water--you have to figure out your mix.)

    - Should the flanges come out a little TOO snug apply a bit of Protek CLP to free it back up and this should also make it last 
    Hope this helps, I'm sure MANY will dis-agree, but that's ok. You decide what is best for your situation.
    Kevin

    -------------------------------------------
    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
    -------------------------------------------




  • 7.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Posted 09-03-2014 15:25
    Kevin-
    The Steinway flange bushings are impregnated with some I-don't-know-what to create the Permafree-3 bushing.
    I don't know how amenable they are to traditional treatments.
    "They" meaning both the bushings and the company!

    -------------------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    Editor
    Piano Technicians Journal
    ed440@me.com
    704-536-7926
    -------------------------------------------




  • 8.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Posted 09-03-2014 15:45
    I'd be worried about repetition with pinning that loose. The rep springs will have be cause the hammers to jump off the back check, otherwise they won't have the strength to support the shank at the knuckle. Same for the rep lever.

    -------------------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 9.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2014 16:16
    Ed, great to know. In that case, it looks as though we are all going to have to accept this--at least from this manufacturer. I really do not think this is going to be a real issue. We have a BRAND NEW Steinway D in our concert all with the new "improved" hammers and they are a DREAM to voice by the way. Everyone seems to LOVE this piano. Anyhoo, I'm pretty darn sure this piano has these new "Perma-free 3" bushings and we have had NO ISSUES with this piano. Just saying...  (perhaps I could remove a hammer or two one of these days and swing test them along with gram gauge test.)
    Best! Kevin

    -------------------------------------------
    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
    -------------------------------------------




  • 10.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2014 16:16
    I find pinning can vary with every manufacturer.  I'm currently repinning a set of new Renners that are too tight.  I don't generally use Steinway S/F but had occasion to recently to match a set of existing NYS wippens.  I found them to be very good with respect to pinning, no adjustments really required.  How stable they are over time, we'll find out.  But those problems can exist with everyone: Renner, Tokiwa and Abel.  The new narrower flange on the NYS I also found to be a plus as my spacing tool finally fit between them in the treble.  

    I think one has to be prepared to address pinning issues no matter who they come from and you should use the parts that make sense for other reasons, in this case if pre-hung makes sense then I probably wouldn't hesitate.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------




  • 11.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2014 16:58
    Paul -
    To what extent is the '70's D being rebuilt?  and where?  Are you set up, in your new venue, to install boards?  David L says:
    "if pre-hung makes sense then I probably wouldn't hesitate."
    You may have lucked out, but it seems you were assuming an awful lot, even apart from this issue about pinning and tail shaping,  such as bore length and distance (from center pin) especially in treble.  I'm assuming you've installed sets in the more traditional manner, so I'm wondering why you chose to go 'pre' on this.

    As for pinning, like David L, I'm in the throes of repinning a set of recent Steinway parts.  I just finished 4 hours on the reps and am about to assess the hammer shanks.  He is correct, I think, when he says that pinning can vary with each manufacturer, but it can also vary within each manufacturer.  My short wisdom, cleaned from a lot of this work in the last few months, including WNG, is that, if one believes consistent pinning friction to be an important aspect of a well-functioning action, you need to eschew shortcuts.  Even then, once action goes back into service, in whatever range of environments it resides, it will react, except, presumably, for WNG.

    I would really like to see a thorough, updated discussion on the concept of zero-friction.  I'd be interested to know if there has been anything written about it previously.

    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 12.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2014 17:09
    Just to clarify my meaning, "makes sense" to me means that the stock bore and hanging distance will work on this particular piano.  It isn't always the case, of course, and if the bore distance is wrong that's a problem. Hanging distance isn't too difficult to correct as it's usually in a relatively small section in the treble that it matters.  Weight is another issue but as long as you are under and not over it's probably not a problem.  A 70's piano may have 16 mm knuckles and probably somewhat bulky hammers.  Changing  to 17 mm and the current hammer iteration will require some weigh off work but then all hammer jobs do.  Makes sense often means that things operate within a budget and prehung sets are less labor cost generally.  But that's just to clarify my meaning, not speaking for Paul.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------




  • 13.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-04-2014 07:57
    David,

    We are rebuilding in a very loose meaning of the term.  The board and bridges are in great shape, so just restringing, new damper felts, pin-block, refinishing and rebronzing the plate. I'm doing all the action work. I decided to use the existing reps as they appear to have been replaced in the last few years and in great shape.  My new shop is similar to the one at UNL and has no facilities to install boards and bridges.  I've recapped a couple bridges and have never installed a board, so I certainly wouldn't try any of that on a performance piano. There are so many of us that are excellent at belly work, so it doesn't bother us to spend a little extra to get them installed right.

    Usually, I like hanging hammers, although I don't do the boring, but time is a factor this time and if all goes well, the D will be on stage ready to go in late October. I think I'll shoot Ben Gac and Kent Webb a note about this discussion to see what they are "supposed" to be (the pinning). 

    More to come...

    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Director of Piano Services
    School of Music
    813 Assembly St
    University of South Carolina
    Columbia, SC 29208
    pwilliams@mozart.sc.edu
    -------------------------------------------




  • 14.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-04-2014 08:38
    One can see definition of rebuilding and reconditioning in the council book of resolutions. ------------------------------------------- Larry Messerly, RPT Bringing Harmony to Homes www.prescottpiano.com larry@prescottpiano.com 928-445-3888 -------------------------------------------


  • 15.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-04-2014 10:58
    Yes, I should have stated the piano is getting reconditioned rather than rebuilt.  Thanks for the clarification Larry.

    I emailed both Ben and Kent.  They said that #1, I should get a gram resistance gage rather than the swing test, so that's now on order. #2, the 7-9 swings might be a standard for other makes and/or more like what Steinway did years ago even before the teflon era, but are standard to be a bit more free nowadays. Am I thinking the 7-9 is for uprights?  I may have mixed my swings!

    I will go with their advice and see how it comes out with the freer pinning. Now, on to the traveling and straightening the hammers.  Not too much of that. Much better than the last time I did this 3 years ago.

    Tune on!


    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Director of Piano Services
    School of Music
    813 Assembly St
    University of South Carolina
    Columbia, SC 29208
    pwilliams@mozart.sc.edu
    -------------------------------------------




  • 16.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-04-2014 16:50
    Paul -
    I also wrote to Kent, who graciously cc'd me the response he provided you with.  While he was fine with you (me, or anyone) posting it to the list, I thought I'd hold off for a bit, so as not to go too far afield from your original thread.  I did feel inspired to do a somewhat unscientific test, as I happened to be in the midst of a repinning job now.  The method of observation does not take into account any sideward oscillation that might affect the actual data, but it's probably as accurate as Fred's humidity readings:

    Steinway M
    Hammer #1 = 11.3 grams strike weight
    0 gr  friction = 282 swings
    1 gr = 22 swings
    2 gr = 16 swings
    3<4 gr = 10 swings
    4 gr = 7 swings

    Hammer #88 = 6.2 grams strike weight
    0 gr friction = 282 swings
    2 gr = 18 swings
    3-4 gr =  6 swings

    11.3 grams put #1 hammer right in the middle of Stanwood's medium zone.  I added 2 grams to hammer mass and re-tested at 1 gram friction and got 22ish swings.

    I'd say that the swing test will still get you pretty darn close if you initially correlate a few sample measurements (swings to gram readings).   Gauge is thoroughly useful.

    Still room for the theoretical aspects, at some point

    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 17.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-05-2014 07:55
    Thanks David.

    This is good information to store in my rebuilding file until I get a gauge.  The good one from Pianotek is pretty spend though. I'll have to ask the Dean.

    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Director of Piano Services
    School of Music
    813 Assembly St
    University of South Carolina
    Columbia, SC 29208
    pwilliams@mozart.sc.edu
    -------------------------------------------




  • 18.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-05-2014 11:09
    Paul -
    While I had fun running my little experiments yesterday, in shop humidity that was quite a bit lower than today, the information is relatively meaningless, and, to be clear, ultimately of less real value than Fred's humidity data charts, collected over a period of years.   The various discussions that have occurred on these lists recently, with regard to action pinning and friction suggest to me a series of dualities  (my 'go-to' description for most complexity, thanks to DA) in that any meaningful, coherent discussion entails a great deal of precision, in both implements and process, and yet, unless falling outside the rather broad range of spec-tolerance that real-world conditions and materials impose, such discussion becomes relatively irrelevant.    

    Within those fairly large, real-world tolerances, on any particular day, frictional anomalies would seem to have more impact on our actual testing, or key weigh-off (using traditional downweight-upweight assessment) than the actual functioning of the instrument.  Balance weight, action ration and consistency of regulation/voicing seem much more significant.

    I would offer some of my own experience, with regard to the need for one, or both of the Correx gram resistance gauges that Pianotek offers (which I don't have) as well as the set of 4 P.K. Neuses spring steel gauges (which I do own), however, I'm somewhat leary of doing so, where the decision seems ultimately not up to you but the Dean.  This would suggest a completely different thread, on CAUT, with regard to how your department is organized and the range of discretion you have in what you do.

    That said, I believe that we should have the best, most reliable measurement tools we can find, even if for the main purpose of calibrating our less precise devices.  It will always be a matter of balancing cost and faith:  my $180 digital psychrometer is supposed to be accurate to +/- 2%, but certification would have cost about twice as much.  I would love to own the Correx gauges (both of them) I doubt the Correx gauges would provide measurements radically different from what I get from the two (of the 4) Neuses gauges that I've used, for years - 0-10 grams and 0-30 grams, but I'd love to own them, to be able to confirm.

    In the short term, there's the ol' swing test, which will show you the out-liers.  Here's what I do with an assembled action.  If it's already common technique, I apologize:

    - remove top action (I seem to remember that Bill Garlick hated the term 'stack')
    - remove repetitions #'s 1 & 88
    - use action cradle (Pianotek #ACC-1 or Schaff #296) to suspend action.  Clamp firmly but not stressing brackets to risk cracking
    - rotate action to allow hammers to swing freely.
    - block repetitions (between let-off buttos and jack toe) to prevent swinging hammer from hitting rep
    - count swings of each hammer (making sure there's no interference with adjacent hammers).  Number of swings is usually one less than same test conducted with part dismounted.
    - spot check (dismount and measure) the friction of X number of swings.  This should give you a good assessment of any problems, without having to dismount and measure each one.
    - with a little finessing, method works well for reps too.   

    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 19.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-05-2014 13:09
    Hi, all,

    I've enjoyed this chain on the Steinway pre-hung hammers; I've used several sets myself lately. David (Vanderlip) and I have usually custom-bored all our sets, but I've used these pre-hung hammers on several D's lately in concert venues and one at CSU Long Beach, and they have worked very well with existing geometry. In each case, I tried on samples before committing to the job, to be sure I wouldn't be creating more work. All the pianos are 20-25 years old or less, for what that's worth.

    We also used to spend hours re-pinning parts before installing them, and eventually came to a whole new appreciation of the challenges faced by manufacturers. We have a lot of micro-climates here - beach, desert, mountains- and many times we sent out a set with perfect swing tests only to have them at about 2 swings a year later. So we can appreciate the current manufacturers' goals of having the parts "as free as possible without side play". That includes not only Steinway and Mason & Hamlin, but also Yamaha, as per recent discussions with Laroy Edwards and Yoshi Suzuki. Those people all wave goodbye to their new instruments when they leave the factory, and have to hope they continue to work wherever in the world they go to live. 

    I also learned that any measurement of pinning, tightness, or friction is only a literal snapshot in time. An old friend used to call it "measuring a 2x4 with a micrometer". It's good to be precise, but just know that it may be information that is going to change.

    A perfect example of that is the Hollywood Bowl venue here, which is the summer home of LA Phil. And any other outdoor venue anywhere, for that matter. A standard tool to have at the ready is a hair dryer. A damp day can make drastic changes in the key weight perceived by the artist, and the hair dryer can make quick changes that last at least long enough for the rehearsals and concert.

    I did a short experiment myself a few days ago. I have two Hamburg D's at a concert venue (indoors, but they'd been stored for the summer in a downstairs piano storage room at probably 70% humidity). During annual maintenance in an upstairs rehearsal room, I noticed that they were running about 56 grams down weight around C3, and the worst hammers were swinging 2-3 times. I aimed the hair dryer at the general front area of the top action, roughly at the hammer flanges, for maybe 2-3 minutes. My two test notes went from 56 down and 21 up, to 52 down and 23 up, and stayed there for the rest of the day. They were still in that same range two days later, so it's not a bad emergency fix. In my older days, I would have considered re-pinning the whole thing, shrinking center cloth, or more. Knowing that this particular situation is temporary helped me decide not to spend all those hours.

    I only comment here because I've learned that it's important to realize what parts of our work are so fleeting and changeable, and think accordingly. Nice measuring tools are important, but what you measure today might not be the same for long. Thanks for such an interesting chain.

    -------------------------------------------
    Kathy Smith
    Anaheim CA
    714-635-7723
    -------------------------------------------




  • 20.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Posted 09-05-2014 13:24
    Great post. Clarity is thrilling. Thank you.
    David Andersen








  • 21.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-05-2014 14:57
    Well said Kathy!  I don't think I could possibly agree more. Especially this part:

    "We also used to spend hours re-pinning parts before installing them, and eventually came to a whole new appreciation of the challenges faced by manufacturers. We have a lot of micro-climates here - beach, desert, mountains- and many times we sent out a set with perfect swing tests only to have them at about 2 swings a year later. So we can appreciate the current manufacturers' goals of having the parts "as free as possible without side play". That includes not only Steinway and Mason & Hamlin, but also Yamaha, as per recent discussions with Laroy Edwards and Yoshi Suzuki. Those people all wave goodbye to their new instruments when they leave the factory, and have to hope they continue to work wherever in the world they go to live. 

    I also learned that any measurement of pinning, tightness, or friction is only a literal snapshot in time. An old friend used to call it "measuring a 2x4 with a micrometer". It's good to be precise, but just know that it may be information that is going to change."

    Thanks again, Kevin
    -------------------------------------------
    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
    -------------------------------------------




  • 22.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-05-2014 17:23
    Nice Kathy,
    I realized I forgot to mention the hair dryer, even as I was using it.  Important, I think, to distinguish between hair dryer and heat gun, as the former actually drys out the part, while the latter would work well if planning to consume it.  

    Given the realities that you have described, and which I acknowledge, the difficulty, almost act of faith, is to nevertheless strive for a high level of consistency, when we are doing the work, as if it were attainable.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik 
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 23.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-05-2014 19:59
    Hi, all, and thanks to David, David and Kevin!

    Here's another 2 cents' worth when it comes to pinning in general. It isn't on the original topic of pre-hung hammers, but is very relevant to hammershank/flange pinning, and has saved me a lot of time by giving consistency and predictability to changes with humidity.

    This has to do with the times when you hang your own hammers, so there you are with a box of Steinway hammershank/flange assemblies ready to open. (I can't speak to other parts, but suspect they may be the same.) Here are two premises that I accepted, and then the rest makes sense. (1) All the assemblies in that box have been subjected to the same humidity conditions since they went into the box, and slightly older is better for me in this case, more seasoned maybe, and (2) The assemblies will have adapted to changes at different rates. Some flanges get tighter than others, who knows why - variations in wood grain, bushing cloth densities, magic.....

    I have jokingly referred to this as "pre-pinning" and it's worked very well. I get out a long open narrow parts tray for convenience of handling. I get out one medium-sized bored spare hammer. I cut a dozen or so small pieces of paper maybe 2"x2" and mark each with a number from 5 to 17. Then I set the papers down, spaced out on the tray, because I'm about to make piles next to them.

    I take each shank out of the box in turn, slide on the medium hammer until it holds with friction, hold the flange up in the air, bring the hammer to 90 degrees, and count the swings. You will find them ranging anywhere from 4-5 to 17-18. That doesn't dismay me at all, in fact I welcome it, because I'll be using it very much to my advantage. I lay each shank down in its respective pile (no need to lay them out flat or in order at this point) and you'll find that the piles in the middle (around 7, 8, 9, 10) get to be the biggest. The outliers will end up at each end. (If there are narrowed shanks in the set, they are done separately, and get their own piles for the treble area.)

    The idea is that after finding the swings produced by the medium hammer, you put on the appropriate size hammer. A flange that swings 4 times with a medium hammer is likely to swing 6-7 with a big bass hammer, naturally, with no re-pinning or shrinking. And one that swings 14 times with a medium hammer will swing less with a little treble hammer. Once your piles are laid out, you take the tray to the action frame and screw the assemblies on, obviously with low number shanks ready to get bass hammers, and higher ones as you go up. Narrowed shanks, in their own particular order, will go on the appropriate area in the treble. You won't end up with perfection on every hammer, but the general trends will be in place, ready for future humidity swings.

    I have found that this takes the natural tendencies of each "virgin" flange pinning and puts them in the best place on the action. If all the flanges tighten up with a humid season, the big bass hammers are more likely to still be able to drop when attached to the flanges which are more likely to get tighter, and likewise with the little treble hammers - they will have been put on shanks less likely to get really tight. 

    This pre-sorting takes maybe 20-30 minutes, is brainless and can be done in front of your favorite sit-com, or while chatting over a second cup of coffee. Try it, I hope you like it too. Again, thanks for all the enlightening ideas and thoughts on this site.

    -------------------------------------------
    Kathy Smith
    Anaheim CA
    714-635-7723
    -------------------------------------------




  • 24.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-17-2014 05:41
    The advent of the more narrow hammer flanges was from a suggestion from an attendee of one of the previous concert service classes. One of the techs was complaining and made the suggestion, " is there any real reason why the spacing has to be so tight". From there the change was made very soon after. 
    -------------------------------------------
    Tom Servinsky
    -------------------------------------------




  • 25.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Posted 09-03-2014 16:55
    On 9/3/2014 3:15 PM, Kevin Fortenberry via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:

    > (perhaps I could
    > remove a hammer or two one of these days and swing test them along with
    > gram gauge test.)

    It would be interesting to see how closely the "on the hoof" product
    meets the specs.
    Ron N




  • 26.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Posted 09-03-2014 17:40
    Ben Gac is now in charge of operator training and quality control at Steinway.

    This from him:

    "...if you happen
    across a new/newer Steinway and find yourself having to
    spend superfluous time working on it, I want to know. I
    see the information on warranty reports, but I would like
    to hear from the technical community about issues that
    you need to deal with that aren't necessarily warranty
    items, but nonetheless are additional to a simple service
    call. I want feedback and I'm interested in tracking
    trends. I'm interested in hearing from you. "Ben, the
    string spacing sucked on that last model O; what are you
    teaching them over there?!" or "Why is key dip
    everywhere on this keyboard? Don't they have a standard
    dip block they're supposed to use?" (Yes, we do-but the
    pressure that each individual operator puts on the dip
    block varies-so we're retooling to remove this margin for
    error.) Please feel free to contact me at any time through
    email (bgac@steinway.com)"

    -------------------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    Editor
    Piano Technicians Journal
    ed440@me.com
    704-536-7926
    -------------------------------------------




  • 27.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-05-2014 23:04
    With wood/felt action parts the rate of humidity change is different between the wool and the wood. Wool changes dimension in response to humidity changes about three time faster than wood. Thus any evaluation of pinning on newly arrived parts must be done over a few days, with the parts at the same humidity.

    The very free parts are very likely to become very loose after about 200 hours of use. I would never use wood/felt parts that are truly that loose. Customers would be very shocked to find that their recently rebuilt action needs complete re-pinning after so little use. 

    Only the W,N&G parts with the hard bushings would be safe at the low friction levels posted earlier.

    I would like to know what durability testing Steinway did on the newly configured parts.
    -------------------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    -------------------------------------------




  • 28.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2014 08:03

    Ed -
    I'm having some trouble resolving some of the points you've made:
    - While interesting, I'm not sure I understand the significance of the hygroscopic differential between wool and wood.  It's become clear that all wood/cloth parts respond to humidity-based variations.  Assuming, for the sake of discussion, that the actual materials and production methods are of the intended highest quality, in a controlled environment, how is the manufacturer, or are we supposed to deal with the climatic variations of the action's eventual venue, or perhaps constantly changing venues?  The issue becomes a matter of who well the action can function as expected in a range of environments without introducing the anomalies associated with either loose pinning (clicks, tonal degradation, control, etc.) or tight (sluggish, heavy response, etc.).   That isn't quite the same question as what the ideal center pinning 'should' be, or what the effect of such light, (but within spec) pinning is, compared to what we were traditionally taught.

    Your concern seems to be an 'anticipatory' one: that the loose parts will get looser, in use.  I'm not sure this is proven out, in the field.  I've certainly had plenty of experience over the years with recently installed parts, that have clearly gotten much tighter than they would have originally been, when first installed.

    I would certainly agree that new parts should be allowed to adjust to your immediate environment before making any assessment, as well as whatever other procedures you use in preparation for use, such as along the lines of what Kathy described.  

    You said:
     Customers would be very shocked to find that their recently rebuilt action needs complete re-pinning after so little use. 

    Two things about this:
    - I'm "shocked" and disturbed at how often I have to repin new parts even before the customer gets them
    - As previously mentioned, I've found the need for repinning is, as often as not, an increase in the friction, over the initial period.

    All of this is not by way of asserting that 'anything goes'.   Just trying to keep the issues straight.

    Regards -

    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 29.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-07-2014 12:50

    David,
    Without understanding the differential rate of hygroskopic change between wood and wool-technicians cannot judge pinning in any meaningful way as regards future performance. Monitoring RH is important for both technician and factory work.

    For regular outdoor performance venues having a climate controlled box to store the action in between performance days would help a lot. When humidity increases the hammers also get heavier and this contributes to the slow action feel. 

    In my experience, hammer shanks pinned as loose as what was described from the original post would become intolerably loose very quickly.

    I have found re-pinning new parts to be absolutely needed in the vast majority of cases. The friction of many new parts may be acceptable out of the box but the spongy cloth compresses rapidly with use. But we rarely get indoor RH above 60% here in Seattle.
    If I have new factory pinned parts that get sluggish, I would treat them with 10 parts alcohol to 1 part water and force them dry with a heat gun about an hour after putting it in.

    This is one of the reasons why I now prefer installing the W,N&G shanks whenever possible.
    -------------------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    -------------------------------------------




  • 30.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-07-2014 14:20
    Hi Ed,
    For the sake of some clarity in the present discussion, I'd suggest limiting the consideration to wood and wool.  WNG can be a whole separate discussion.  Having said that, I would venture to make one reference to the non-wool, teflon bushings.  Granted, my understanding of the counter-intuitive nature of that part's response to RH: getting looser in summer and tighter in winter... might be outdated, but it was that the elevating summer humidity expanded the wood, actually making the bushed hole larger, thus reducing the pressure on both bushing an pin.  In winter, the process reversed.  If that is, in fact, the process, then it should be the same in the case of wool--bushed flanges.  The differential we are 'haggling' over might be less a matter of the speed of hygroscopic response than the extent. The expansion of the wool would seem to be greater than that of the wood, thus overtaking the actual enlarging hole.

    But all wool bushing material is not the same, and I'd be hard-pressed (:)) to describe the current Steinway bushings as 'spongy', unlike the material I've found in new parts of some other sources.  For that reason, I don't believe that some generic alcohol-based treatment, whether virtually 100% anhydrous or some controlled ration, can be expected to produce the same results (without prior testing). 

    The answer to the next series of thought-questions may be obvious to others (not me), but in trying to consider the mechanism by which moisture will  both expand and shrink wool, I wondered what the difference might be in an end result that employs physical burnishing (the Mannino/Merino effect?) vs. alcohol/water.  



    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 31.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-07-2014 20:42
    Wool reacts to humidity changes faster than wood. Maybe Steinway has discovered some slower reacting wool system. I would be interested in how they did that and how much life-cycle testing they did.

    Once wool bushings have been sized to a certain density, no more compressive force can be elicited from the differential rate of the wood. So maybe Steinway has worked that system to it's limits.

    I have often wondered why Steinway didn't use a laminated flange fork like Yamaha has, with the teflon bushing. It might have been stable enough to make them work. I have never tried to install a teflon bushing in a Yamaha flange but it might be an interesting test. Another thing on my to do list!

    -------------------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    -------------------------------------------




  • 32.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-08-2014 11:46

    The 1-3 grams of friction was a specification that Steinway aimed for immediately after abandoning Teflon bushings in '82.  The introduction of high-density bushing cloth, hardened further with a proprietary chemical solution (adjustments made sometime in '92, another tweak in '01) helped the factory better achieve this specification.  Steinway is always monitoring its results in production and in the field; Steinway has its own technicians in its Concert Department who have serviced the pianos in demanding environments over the last couple of decades with little need for bushing adjustments, implying that something is working well.  This is not a new method or way of thinking; Steinway has been quite successful with this method for a couple of decades.  Technicians servicing Steinway pianos do need to be aware of the particular traits of Steinway pianos in order to service them optimally.

    - Ben

    Ben Gac
    Touch & Tone Technical Trainer
    Steinway & Sons NY
    630-291-5654 - cell
    718-267-3202 - office
    bgac@steinway.com



  • 33.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Posted 09-08-2014 12:19
    Thank you for a most informative post, Ben Gac.

    It is so nice to read of what one knows, rather than hypothesizing.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv
    [Visual Tuning Platform User]
    [iRCT & OnlyPure ]
    -------------------------------------------


  • 34.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-09-2014 23:04
    Thank you Ben for the information.

    I wonder if you can tell us what testing of number of motion events over time verses friction and angular side play Steinway has done with the new parts?

    -------------------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    -------------------------------------------




  • 35.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2014 09:58

    Hi Ed,

    To the best of my knowledge Steinway never used a swing test.  The Action Department (a humidity regulated environment) regularly spot-checks the friction of each bushing (left and right, individually) with a special device-not to mention that the operators who inspect each one at the end of the line can quite easily tell when one is incorrect, simply because they handle so many every day.  Side play is tested regularly by inserting the part into a device that applies a specific amount of torque and measures the deflection in hundredths of degrees.  Virtually all of the parts are well within Steinway's parameters, and if they're found not to be an investigation is launched to solve the problem before the parts are sold or used in production.  Again, this nothing new.  Newly manufactured parts, yes, but not new in practice.

    - Ben

    Ben Gac
    Touch & Tone Technical Trainer
    Steinway & Sons NY
    630-291-5654 - cell
    718-267-3202 - office
    bgac@steinway.com





  • 36.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2014 10:23
    Steinway did a test of ecsaine, on an action model, some crazy number of repetitions in the 100K plus area. This not only did not degrade the ecsaine, it also did not produce wobbly centers. (I saw the results and examined the parts, somewhere in the 5 - 10 years ago period). But practically speaking the reality in the field is enough proof: they stay firm, for years and years. All centers in our 13 year old D are firm, have not been repinned. I have a 5 year old O in a practice room that I was filing hammers on a couple days ago. Thinking of this thread, I pulled off a few random shanks and tested (gram and swing): 1 - 3 grams and firm. (A mid bass hammer swung 7 times - surprised me, I thought it would be 10).

    This is a different animal from regular felt bushings. The impregnation helps to stabilize, providing firmness, but also lubricates. When I first faced it I tried to get friction up to 4 - 5 grams. It was quite frustrating, and I finally learned to live with low friction. It does mean you need to refine your butterfly spring adjusting skills, making very tiny adjustments. The up side is that it is very stable: the friction stays very close to where it was, and so does the spring strength as tested by hammer rise.
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico






  • 37.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2014 12:14
    Fred said:

    "Steinway did a test of ecsaine... This is a different animal from regular felt bushings"

    1) Cloth, not felt
    2) Ecsaine?  A different animal indeed.

    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 38.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2014 01:15
    Edited:
    The 1-3 grams of friction was a specification that Steinway aimed for immediately after abandoning Teflon bushings in '82.  The introduction of high-density bushing cloth, hardened further with a proprietary chemical solution (adjustments made sometime in '92, another tweak in '01) helped the factory better achieve this specification.   Technicians servicing Steinway pianos do need to be aware of the particular traits of Steinway pianos in order to service them optimally.

    Ben-
    I've edited your response (above) to focus on the technical issues, since, for whatever assortment of reasons,  my own experience with the parts has not seemed to mirror that of the C&A techs.  As I said somewhat earlier in this thread, at some point, it would be interesting (to me at least) to better understand where the 1-3 gram spec originated, as well as explore the differences (if any) between the way a low-friction (at the hammer pinning) system works, and feels, compared to what was considered traditional (4-5 grams; '7' swings, etc.).  That would be apart from any issues of distortion or energy loss due to 'angular side-play' if that's, in fact, what Ed M was referring to in his last response.


    For now thought, the technical points about working with the bushing material.  You have taken a high-density bushing cloth, in and of itself becoming hard to come by, and treating it with a material to make it yet harder and minimize sliding friction. Since we will, occasionally find pinning that is either too tight or too loose, what procedures do you recommend?  Are these 'plasticized' bushings actually absorbing moisture and reacting,  in the way the untreated wool would?  Are we actually trying to 'shrink' the cloth, or is there a different action taking place?
    Lastly, can you be more specific as to the "particular traits of Steinway pianos..." you referred to?

    Thanks  -

    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 39.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2014 14:18

    Hi David,

    Attached are the pages from Steinway's Technical Reference Guide which outline how to service the cloth bushings.  You'll notice great similarity to how traditional bushings are serviced.

    The "particular traits" of Steinway pianos that I was referring to include things like being aware of the bushing specifications, how to voice the New York hammer, bedding the concave keyframe to the convex keybed, and regulating the New York sostenuto, just to name a few of many.

    - Ben

    Ben Gac
    Touch & Tone Technical Trainer
    Steinway & Sons NY
    630-291-5654 - cell
    718-267-3202 - office
    bgac@steinway.com













  • 40.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2014 14:46
    About 10 years ago it seemed like Steinway took a radical turn.  The back checks now have very stiff wires (for a while they were so stiff that adjusting them could damage the key) and checking has to be high.  It's almost as if the rep spring was eliminated as a real factor in repetition.  Grands act more like vertical pianos. The back check becomes the main actor in repetition, just like vertical piano design.  The slight springiness of the wire holds the hammer up long enough for the jack to reset, at least in theory. But I can't really see that design as an improvement, if that's what Steinway is doing.  

    Low friction centers simply will not allow the rep spring to be strong enough to hold up a hammer without the hammer popping up too fast.  There just has to be some friction in the rep lever for the decades-old design to work right.  That design is what we've seen for a hundred years.  Sure the pinning changes with the humidity, but that's why the springs are adjustable.  I usually felt I had to take some time at least twice a year, once in the winter and once in the summer.  Between times, there would be slight variations from week to week, but everything worked.  

    Part of the redesign was also to make New York pianos more like their German kin.  I think there may have been other design changes that made the two factories and their pianos more alike.  Some pianists have not been happy with that trend, although that is just hear say on my part.  Can anyone verify that?  Or disprove it?  Inquiring minds want to know.

    Richard West





  • 41.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2014 16:09
    Great post, Ben. Thank you. Here are some examples that MAY help with this topic: (good therapy for me if nothing else)

    1. samples from an older Baldwin grand (just removed because I'm replacing 
    2. samples from the brand new set of shanks/flanges from Brooks,LTD-( installing a new set of Abel naturals-Baldwin action on my bench right now)
    3. a couple of brand new Fazioli hammer shanks/flanges (I just opened up the nifty gold box that came with our new Fazioli 9 ft concert grand (less than 3 years old) because they give you 2 extra hammer flanges)

     Holding the sample flange with the center pin in a vertical position, and using the spring gram gauge like the one in the Steinway manual just posted, and testing at the screw hole, here are the results:   (my shop is 60% humidity right now and has been stable)

    1>Old Baldwin ham/shanks/flanges:
    Most between 2 and 3 grams resistance; here are some readings:
    -hammer # 20- 1.75 grams in one direction/2 grams in the other- 10 swings
    -#83 2 grams / 3 grams 4 swings
    -#25 3 grams (both ways) 5 swings
    -#28 2 / 3 6 swings
    -#51 3.5 / 4  3 swings
    Note: there were no issues with repetition, double-striking, etc with this action. just needed new hammers.

    2>Brand new (Tokiwa?) hams/shanks/flanges going on the action:
    #2 2 gr 8 swings
    #20 3 both ways 7 swings
    #53 2.5 / 3 8 swings
    #54 1 both ways 13 swings
    #70 2 grams 9 sw.

    3> 2 new fazioli flanges from box:
    1> 3 / 3.5
    2> 3 / 3  (no hammers)
    In our building, in which the humidity tends to go a bit higher when running the a/c (air handlers), I would be MOST troubled by the one with only 3 swings. That one could get me in trouble HERE- perhaps not other places, but HERE it might.

    I will have to post the results from the new Steinway D I mentioned at another time--hopefully the next time I tune it. (sorry Ron! I can't wait so check these)
    Best, Kevin

    -------------------------------------------
    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
    -------------------------------------------




  • 42.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2014 18:14

    Ben -
    With regard to 'traits', thanks for clarifying.  I presumed that you were referring specifically to aspects of center pinning.

    I'm not sure when the Technical reference guide was last updated, but there are a few clarifications that would be helpful:

    As per Richard West's response, I'm not sure that a spec of 1-4 grams for all centers, including rep lever, is realistic or desirable, given the effect of low hammer pinning friction on the rep spring.

    The guide says "if the center is too tight and is not the result of humidity -..."    Why else would it be tight?  and what is the recommended procedure if tightness is due to humidity?

    It says to select the next larger pin size (even though the previous one was too tight), presumably with the assumption that the process of removing the pin will enlarge the hole in the bird's-eye, although there is the allowance that the same pin might be used in the case of a new instrument.  How new is not clear.  In fact, except for the center groove in the otherwise finished pins (what is that groove for?), there is no reason why careful removal of the pin should damage the wood.

    More importantly, the guide advises to ream the bushing (which is sure to be tight with the larger pin) using a straight-sided reamer.  This implies removal of (and, to some degree disturbing) the bushing material.  There is no mention of burnishing or any other form of compression.

    It further says that, if a pointed pin (oversize) is used, excess should be cut off on both ends.  Why?  That greatly reduces (or eliminates) the possibility of removing that pin without further enlarging the bird's-eye, as opposed to having one end of the pin uncut (and, if of recent vintage, rounded).

     

    The guide references the application of "undiluted methanol" .  There has been much discussion over the last few years at least, regarding the toxicity of methanol and advising the substitution of ethanol, or something straight from the liquor store (Susan Kline).  (See PTG Pianotech : 'Controlled' alcohol-water application (7/30/2014).    The term 'undiluted' is indeterminate.  Is it to be  presumed that this implies an anhydrous form of the material, meaning devoid of water content?   Since it is such content that would be active in 'shrinking' the wool material, and not any alcohol carrier, can you explain the mechanism you believe to be active in the re-sizing process? 

     I know you've been looking forward to the opportunity to have these kinds of conversations, so I'm glad to facilitate.

    Thanks much

    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 43.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2014 07:20

    David said: "I know you've been looking forward to the opportunity to have these kinds of conversations, so I'm glad to facilitate."

    I'd rather refer you to Steinway's Technical Support department for further clarification in regards to the service manual.  In contributing to this thread my aim was prevent the proliferation of speculation on misinformation.  Technically, it's not part of my job to be an ambassador of Steinway to technicians; this is why I'd like to refer you to the appropriate people.  All the best,

    - Ben

    Ben Gac
    Touch & Tone Technical Trainer
    Steinway & Sons NY
    630-291-5654 - cell
    718-267-3202 - office
    bgac@steinway.com











  • 44.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2014 13:20
    Ben -
    My apologies.  I was being somewhat ironic.  I did not intent to misconstrue what your official status at Steinway allows you to address. I think people were grateful to have some direct input from the 'source', and would continue to be so.   Is it then possible to have the questions I raised addressed by the appropriate persons - Steinway Technical Support?   I'm assuming, of course, that nothing of what I've asked ventures into the realm of 'proprietary', but I realize there's always that possibility.

    In the meantime, perhaps we need to change the subject title.

    Thanks -

    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 45.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-13-2014 22:39
    Wool fibers have a definite elastic limit. If compressed beyond this the fibers will be crushed. But knowing how dense they can felt wool for hammers and industrial filters-the limit is pretty high. And it must vary with sheep variety and health status.

     I will have to see how long the new parts hold up in severe use situations to form a final opinion. But I would re-pin them tighter after they adjust to steady ambient humidity if I was using a set of shanks as loosely pinned as was described in the OP. I have to guarantee to my rebuilding customers that the action can take 10 years of heavy use.

    -------------------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    -------------------------------------------




  • 46.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Posted 09-14-2014 00:17
    That is some guarantee, indeed, Mr. Ed. Kudos to you in pulling it off.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv
    [Visual Tuning Platform User]
    [iRCT & OnlyPure ]



  • 47.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2014 10:14
    Ed -
    You may or may not agree with the line of questions I tried to pose to Ben Gac on this topic, which seems to have lost interest for the list, presently, but I'll try to deconstruct your comments without driveing you off as well.

    I don't think the issues of elastic limits (whether tensil or compressive) have anything to do with bushing cloth... at least not in the context of this thread.  On the other hand, changes in the quality & consistency of material, the way it's processed, along with the qualities of the other materials involved (center pins, wood) and the actual methods of parts manufactured, are all critical.   The over-riding concern you seem to have expressed is for the long-term viability of the parts... that you (and your customer) be confident in its ability to continue functioning within whatever spec you/the manufacturer have agreed upon.  

    Specifically, you seem particularly concerned that 'heavy' use will adversely affect these more loosely-pinned parts, but how would that work?   If you accept that (at least in theory) in their new condition, the parts conform to manufacturer's spec - low friction but no side-play - then what would any subsequent deterioration in function look like? Tonal degradation due to side play (either at pinning or hammer) or, in fact, friction increasing, as has been the case with these and other manufacturers' parts.   You have expressed no particular opinion on the concept of low-friction hammerflange pinning itself... it's effect, positive or otherwise on the feel and response of an action... but are concerned with the specific requirement of pinning being able to maintain spec in a heavy use situation.  You said:
     I would re-pin them tighter after they adjust to steady ambient humidity if I was using a set of shanks as loosely pinned as was described in the OP.
    So, your very specific model consists of, not only heavy use but consistent humidity as well.  You would repin at a spec higher than the manufacturer proposes, your priority being, not necessarily the optimal functioning of the action, but rather, how long it will retain functionality at some level.  

    Concluding: the longevity issue is somewhat separate from the concepts of lower/higher hammerpinning friction OR the process of manufacture, quality of materials, and the reactivity response to adjustment (and climate) that different parts display.  


    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 48.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2014 11:19
    David,
    Experience has taught me that in high use situations, hammer centers that are fit as ostensibly loose as Steinway NY is currently producing will not hold up over time. The tone will not be controllable with any more looseness.

    With the light hammers I use, slightly tight hammer center pinning has very little affect on speed of touch. When you use heavier hammers, friction becomes more significant to touch issues. My axiom is "Lighter and Tighter". A fine piano is a study in damping. Adequate friction helps damp unwanted oscillations. I also set up my key-bushings very firm and snug. Many new pianos have key-bushings that are worn out from day one as regards side-play.

    Your comments are very good David. Don't think they would drive me away. 
    -------------------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    -------------------------------------------




  • 49.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2014 14:16
    Ed -
    Still ostensibly steering clear of the theoretical function of ANY friction at the hammershank pinning (if neither 'fork' side-play nor hammer oscillation were an issue), even a tighter pinning target must have both an upper limit and range of 'optimal' function.  One could speculate about the way in which the action function differs at either extreme of that range, as well as what symptoms begin to manifest themselves as friction moves past those extremes, in either direction.    Again, part of the difficulty of this discussion is that we are attempting to operate on both the practical and theoretical plane, at once.   As I suspect you know, thoroughly, while there might be a mechanically optimal design, the subjective (to the player) optimization - key weight, dip, aftertouch, springs, let off, dampers (and of course voicing) - vary widely.  

    Here's another angle, that I mentioned previously.  You are focusing, seemingly almost exclusively, on the impact of heavy usage on pinning friction at the lower end of the range.  This would not seem to take into account any changes in friction (higher or lower) that might occur due to not-uncommon  climate variation or compression set of pinning itself.   But even staying within the scenario you propose, there might be just as much concern for a more-tightly pinned action to exceed the upper end spec as for your concern for the low-end problems.  

    If Ben has signed off on this, I will attempt to pursue it with any affable member of the Steinway tech team I can find.

    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 50.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-15-2014 10:20
    I guess it depends on what one means by "take" (as in heavy use).  Do you mean not need to be completely replaced or not require any upkeep and maintenance?  I wouldn't make a guarantee like that.  I would (and do) set up the action to perform correctly now.  If one anticipates a change in friction due to "heavy use" then you may well end up setting up the friction at a level higher than is necessary for it to perform well now.  I think most customers will not be satisfied with that, certainly not performance oriented individuals who are the ones likely to engage in "heavy use".  They don't want or expect an action to perform a bit off now, good in five years and then on the downturn for the last five years.  Same is true  with voicing.  You voice the piano to sound right now not after 200 or 300 or 500 hours of playing. Our job is to maintain it at a high level, not find some compromise where it is off now, better later, and then off again after that as if the overall average over ten years means anything.   

    I do think that bushings wear over time whether they are pinned tighter or looser.  Perhaps it's due to ever changing humidity or the inevitable side stresses and torque associated with forceful playing, or both, but expecting perfect stability in a bushing, or anything else really, over ten years is unrealistic and will simply produce a somewhat compromised instrument for most of that time.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------




  • 51.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2014 10:23
    Ben,

    Do you know if Hamburg is using the same flange bushing approach, with the same low friction?

    --Cy




  • 52.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2014 15:57
    On the lines of Cy's question about Hamburg, I believe they are still using Renner parts, not NY Steinway parts. I'd like to be corrected if this has changed.

    The NY Steinway parts are bushed, a sizing pin is inserted, then they are dipped into a bath with the "teflon-like" substance. That substance is a white, sort of waxy feeling solid when it dries (from touring the factory, and pulling off a bit that had dried around the rim of the vat), very similar to what I got when I evaporated some McLube 444. This substance gives body/hardness to the wool, at the same time as it is lubricating. 

    Renner uses a felt that has graphite on the side toward the pin, and does the standard sort of sizing: a sizing pin is inserted, and the parts are dipped in a bath of water/alcohol, which serves to "shrink" the felt (pack it more compactly by the force of compression, caused by the wool fibers absorbing water and swelling, and pressing against the pin). I would say the Renner bushings are probably denser in the wool fibers, because NY Steinway bushings will become spongy if you wash out the teflon by using too much methanol (or whatever else acts as a solvent).

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
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  • 53.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2014 18:15
    Thanks Fred.  Little by little, we're moving closer to the molecular level.

    The 'teflon-like' substance is probably an Emralon liquid.  

    Here is the reference page from the Henkel web site:
    http://www.henkel.com/industrial/brands-5497.htm?nodeid=8797572038798

    Here is a page from the DECC site that is more helpful:
    http://www.decc.com/acheson.php#310

    The brand name product Emaralon is made by Acheson, (same company that makes DAG) which is now a division of Henkel. 

    Another version of Emralon that is available in a less industrial context is Permalon 327, (available only as aerosole)  made by (for) Russell Products Lubricants, in Cleveland.
    http://russprodco.com/Permalon.php

    When I talked to their tech support, this past summer, I was told that the solvent for Permalon  (in the event you wanted to use it as a liquid) is alcohol-related, but somewhat proprietary, and is no longer available in anything smaller than drums... (someone like to split one?)  This all makes sense in light of the use of ethanol on the bushings, more to redistribute the PTFE solids than to shrink the wool fibers.  Also explains (perhaps) the white-ish residue on some shanks that may have been over-treated with alcohol.

    The NY Steinway parts are bushed, a sizing pin is inserted, then they are dipped into a bath with the "teflon-like" substance

    It would still be interesting to know what the pinning friction starts out as, before the 'bath', and whether the final friction occurs automatically as a result of this process.  What, for example, would they have to change if they wanted the pinning to end up a 'little' tighter.

    The information on the Renner process is also interesting, generating its own questions.  
    - bushed parts are 'bathed' before knuckle insertion?  or only up to bushing, after knuckle insertion?
    - what is size of sizing pin?  friction before bath?
    - what is nature (ratio) of solution?  
    - how is effect of bath water on both cloth and wood so carefully controlled?
    - what is the process involved in final pinning?

    Again, thanks

    -----------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 54.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2014 20:17
    David,
    Your questions are good ones. I don't have answers. I can only report what I have seen and been told here and there. Many questions don't get precise answers. My account of Renner center bushing procedure is not based on Renner, but on general reports about how action makers proceed (including Kawai, as Don Mannino has been kind enough to give some details). The main difference I know about Renner is that they coat the bushing with graphite. I am not sure that is a good thing.

    With respect to the bathing procedures, I understand that often there are at least two sizing "dips" with different sized pins. One with the first sizing pin, before the parts are assembled. Possibly a second with a different size of sizing pin. Then a final with the parts assembled. The dipping would only cover the bushings, and wouldn't touch the knuckles. All it takes is a quick touch in the bath to saturate the felt. 

    I don't claim to be an expert. I am just reporting what I think I know as accurately as I can, in hopes that someone who knows better will provide more details. But back to part of the original thread, I would think that NY Steinway parts would have a lower target friction than Hamburg, in hopes of achieving the same firmness, and a friction low enough to ensure reliable function. (I'll comment that in most sets of Renner parts I have installed, a wee bit of "freezing up" shows up, which I provisionally attribute to the graphite - but that is a guess. In any case it is not as bad as various Asian parts, on Young Changs and Samicks of older vintage, as well as Tokiwa parts of similar vintage, 80s and 90s at a guess).

    Emralon, Permalon, and McLube 444 are all mold releases, I believe, FWIW. BTW, I am quite fond of the green stuff (whichever it is) that Steinway puts on wippen surfaces, in preference to graphite. Graphite immediately transfers to the knuckles, leading to squeaks and friction. I don't find that on Steinways, after many years of use.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------




  • 55.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2014 21:52
    Thank you Fred.  I didn't mean or expect to have you provide all the answers.  Even after all the time that we've been at this endeavor, it seems remarkable that there are aspects like these that remain shrouded in semi-mystery.

    I believe that Emralon and Permalon are the same, except for the color, (Emralon, as in Emerald?) the manufacturer, and the form in which the product is available.  I don't know if Emralon is available in a spray form.  The Permalon, as liquid  might be, but not as a regular item, and, as I mentioned, the solvent indicated for any thinning is only available in industrial quantity.  I think it is somewhat more tenacious than McLube 444 but, in its liquid form, is hard to work with, as it flashes extremely quickly... dries too quickly on the brush.

    Next time I have some flange bushing replacement to do (and if I have the time) I'll try the pre-sizing method.  
    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    -------------------------------------------




  • 56.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-15-2014 10:42
    David Love,
    All pianos get lighter and brighter with use. Some do this so fast that a serious player would have to spend a ridiculous amount of money on annual service. Pianist's don't want to always be thinking about servicing their piano-they just want to sit down and play and have a great experience. I am the same way. I don't want to be going over needle voicing or touching up unisons before every time I play. Great pianos are very expensive to buy-if that also means high maintenance costs-the piano industry is in trouble. 

    So yes my newly finished rebuilds are slightly on the soft side and slightly on the tight side. I service some of my rebuilds from 35 years ago-and can see how they react to use. When the hammer grooves get over one string diameter in the lower and upper treble, light shaping brings the tone back to what is ideal. No heroic needle work. Key-bushings and pinning just fine. dust it out, go over key level, escapement, unison phasing, checking and springs-tune and some needle voicing-sounds/plays great!

    We service professionals have a fiduciary responsibility to our customers. They should trust us to always be advocating for them to have the best piano experience in the most cost effective way possible. We should be their advocates to piano manufacturers instead of the present situation where we are beholden to industry support, (albeit very meager amounts, just goes to show how cheaply we value ourselves), for our technical institute. Things like too broad and/or hard V-bars should never be seen again!
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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 57.  RE: Steinway pre-hungs re-visited

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-16-2014 07:36

    Paul and list
    I just returned from the Concert Service class at Steinway this past week. The gram resistance for the new parts is 1-3gms for both hammer flanges and wippen flanges. I too thought it was a bit to loose, but after going through all of the checks, the new resistance works extremely well. The felt is treated with a teflon cocktail which makes the extremely light resistance.
    By the way, the new hammers require very little lacquering as these are much denser and heavier hammers than previous years. We did maybe 4 drops on the 10 and 2'oclock from notes 1-70, then on the crown for top and shoulders for the high treble. And that was it. Plenty of power and tone throughout.
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    Tom Servinsky
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