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Interaction with a school teacher

  • 1.  Interaction with a school teacher

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-15-2014 19:38
    Here is a recent email encounter I had with an local school teacher. I'm posting the entire thread. I am curious as to what experiences others throughout the community ( and country) may have had in similar situations. Hopefully it will provide an insight as to one possibility to handle these types of requests. I have purposely left the numbers in place and only x'd out the name to protect the school and teacher.
    DISCLAIMER: The pricing noted on this email thread is by no means a suggestion, inference or should be construed as an attempt to establish any pricing in any market. It is merely to provide a factual (real time-today) reference as to an actual interaction/.
    It is the authors belief that there still remains a great state of misinformation by institutional administrators (consumers) in regard to their beliefs as to their perception that pianos only "need tuning" and no other form of maintenance or parts.
    I invite all  comments
    -------------------------------------------
    Gerry
    Gerald P. Cousins, RPT ~ Director of Piano Service and Resources
    West Chester University of PA
    gcousins@wcupa.edu
    -------------------------------------------

    Customer - Thursday
    Hi Gerry,

    This is XX's wife.  I recently began teaching music at (XXX) Country Day School in (XXX), and I have two pianos that need tuning!!  There is a Wurlitzer upright in my classroom that is pretty badly out of tune, and a Kawai baby grand in the performance space (gym/auditorium).  I have a pretty tight budget overall, but it's a priority to get these instruments in good shape and I know you're the best one for that job.  I am wondering what you might charge to come work on them?  I need to go to my uppers with a rough dollar amount before booking the tunings.  Thanks so much!  (XX XXXX)

    Response:
    Oooh, coming up with a number without actually seeing the pianos would not be fair to the schools budget process and especially the pianos.  If you ask the higher ups how much they can spare in the budget, I will be happy to start the work and when I reach the budget limit I will stop work. Then they can allocate some additional funding and I can revisit the project.  If they need a starting point have them figure 500 and we can go from there.  Of course IF I can complete the work below the budget then I am obligated to only bill for the work done.  Harrisburg frowns on unethical behavior and I value my position at the University and within the piano community.  Let me know when they are ready to proceed and I will work it into my schedule.    Regards GC
    Customer -  Friday
    Ok, well I talked with some people and the most I can get at the moment is $250.  They feel this is more than enough because a guy that tuned the pianos before only charged $60 per piano.  They don't really understand much about music, instruments, and the importance of maintenance.  I'll get them to understand, but it won't happen overnight.  

    Both pianos aren't in atrocious condition...the baby grand seems ok  - just in need of a tuning - but I haven't spent much time with it, so I'll be interested to know what you think.  The classroom piano is just emerging from a year of storage and is quite out of tune.  I haven't been using the classroom upright much, because it's kind of gross sounding, but I have to start chorus soon and it'll need to have more use shortly.  The baby grand gets used probably just a couple times per month, on average.  

    Could you come out, advise how to best spend the $250 in regards to piano maintenance, and then do that work?  I don't know when I'd be able to come up with more money, so I need to use what I have as wisely as possible and have a plan (a prioritized list, I guess) of what needs to come next when I am able to pay more.  Could you help with this?  Or is $250 not really worth your time?  I'll understand either way.  2pm or later on a week day is probably the best time for tuning as far as the school/gym schedules go.  I think I could probably meet you there on a weekend if that's better for you though.  Let me know what you think.
    Thanks,  XX  XXXX
    Response Delayed  - Weekend  (purposely to allow analysis for all involved)
    Customer - Monday
    Hello,
    I had a somewhat productive meeting with my supervisor this morning, and was able to explain the instruments and musical equipment in terms of an investment in the program, and that failure to maintain the instruments will eventually result in needing to purchase new ones. 
    I just got approved for $300 worth of tuning/repair (an increase of $50 over what I was originally told), with the assurance that the school does want to protect their investment in these instruments through proper maintenance.  Should the projected bill be more than $300 then they will do their best to come up with a plan for completing the necessary work.
    Let me know if/when you may be able to come out to xxxx xxxxx to look at/work on the pianos.  I will do my best to work around your availability! 
    Thanks, XX XXXX

    Response  TBD


  • 2.  RE: Interaction with a school teacher

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-15-2014 21:07
    I'd probably walk away.  Unless you are desperate for work this is the kind of customer you just don't need.   I don't quote prices up front without seeing the piano nor do lock myself into an amount with a promise of services to be delivered.  I'd give a range of prices for two pianos and figure that each piano will require more than a simple tuning.  Your first communication for a $500 ceiling is probably about right for the initial tuning and assessment for additional work, should they want to go forward.  It may not reach that amount but if covers you.  I don't go out to assess pianos for tuning only.  I go there to tune the piano and in the process assess it.  There is a fee associated with first time appointments but it isn't a guarantee as you just can't be sure what you will encounter.  I don't try and compete with $60 tunings.  If someone just wants an assessment then I charge my hourly but the assessment fee is only applicable if the work reaches a certain threshold, as in the case of a total rebuilding.  It's not applicable for a tuning only should they decide that's all they want done.       

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 3.  RE: Interaction with a school teacher

    Posted 09-15-2014 22:08
    I'm not seeing where this issue is. Is it just that you're busy enough with a full time job and don't want to mess with it? 

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    Scott Kerns
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Lincoln, NE
    www.thattuningguy.com
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  • 4.  RE: Interaction with a school teacher

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-16-2014 04:06
    Gerald

    Tune and repair both pianos the best you can within the time limits and budget you're allowed. But more important than that is to give  a detailed written report of what else needs to be done, and how much it will cost. Make sure you specify each repair, and/or regulation that needs to be done, and include in your report what will happen if the work is not done. (C#4 has a loose centerpin, and not repining that will cause that hammer to hit the next string.) What this does is not only give the obvious, but it takes you off the hook when the music teacher calls and tells you C#4 is not working right.

    Good luch

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 5.  RE: Interaction with a school teacher

    Posted 09-16-2014 05:56
    Could this become a chapter project? A Saturday upgrade for the Wurlitzer, take good photos and send to local media? Is there value in having a real piano in good shape leading the choir rehearsals? Mentioning a chapter web site with members names and contact information, which can be given to parents and teachers? Meanwhile the school pays for the Kawai tuning, so they learn the fair cost of a tuning and don't assume they're on the dole. ------------------------------------------- Ed Sutton Editor Piano Technicians Journal ed440@me.com 704-536-7926 -------------------------------------------


  • 6.  RE: Interaction with a school teacher

    Member
    Posted 09-16-2014 10:55
    You invited us to comment on your communication with a potential teacher client. You might have anticipated responses to focus on the teacher's comments, but your comments could be improved as well. Even though the communications are done via e-mail, I would suggest a more formal style of writing as opposed to a casual, conversational style. Thanking the customer for contacting you and expressing your willingness to help improve their instruments would be a better way to start a response. It is not the customer's responsibility to know the technical aspects of piano maintenance. The technician should take the opportunity, when presented thru an inquiry, to inform the customer of the various tasks which can be considered and the improvement in piano performance which may be expected. Offering a budget amount per task would enable administrators to adequately plan for work. I, as administrator, would hesitate to engage a technician who states a $500 figure without explaining how it was determined (seems like two pitch correction tunings to me) and then suggesting you will spend as much of their money as the budget will allow. This might be an unfair conclusion, but your response tends to read that way. The teacher should be complimented for explaining to her administrators the need to "invest" in the music program and the assets used to support it. This is a good approach for all school technicians. Since you were asked to "advise on spending the available money," you could offer to furnish consulting services and the fee required. If you are not available to provide the needed services, perhaps you could recommend a suitable alternate.

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    John Ginter
    Plum Piano Restoration Inc
    La Grange TX
    832-722-3033
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  • 7.  RE: Interaction with a school teacher

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-17-2014 01:58
    Hey Gerry -
    The prior response to this post was from John Ginter, but since I'm extracting bits from many of them, I thought it simpler just to go from your original.  I've yet to figure out an elegant way of accomplishing this, but of course, that's a topic for another 'community'.

    I'm fascinated by the range of responses  your question has elicited, and, in particular, the differences in what we bring to our perception of the inquiry.  In many respects, our experiences are distinct and discrete, and not entirely applicable to one another's seemingly similar situations.  

    In many respects, it shouldn't have gone past David Love's initial response:
    I'd probably walk away.  Unless you are desperate for work this is the kind of customer you just don't need.

    I think this is true, so that everything that comes after is based upon a (probably) false premise that you want or need this.  The fact that she identifies herself as the wife of XX means that there is some pre-existing connection for which you might feel an obligation to respond where you might otherwise not.  If the venue is, in fact, in Harrisburg, then it already suggests a bit of a travel investment for you.  the fact that she's just started teaching there means that she has no leverage and, likely, no idea of the 'history' or dynamics of the place.  Comments like:
    "They don't really understand much about music, instruments, and the importance of maintenance.  I'll get them to understand, but it won't happen overnight."  
    suggest a significant naivete, at best.

    The other responses might have some validity (in my distorted view) in the theoretical universe, but, disregarding the tone of your communication, which
    a) was email, and so, by nature, casual
    b) directed to someone you had some standing connection with, but mostly:
    c) you am what you am

    the question is, abstractly, is this a situation that can conclude favorably?  It's almost a game.  What would the rational be, for a high level technician, even with the time in his/her schedule, to take on this project, if we allow that, as much as we might like what we do we're in it for the money... if it doesn't make business sense, our perspective is of limited value for someone who's doing this work for more than their own amusement.  

    Wim's advice is, I think, misguided, but what can you expect from the middle of the ocean?  

    Tune and repair both pianos the best you can within the time limits and budget you're allowed.

    No way Josie.  This is like checkmate in the first move.  What client actually truly understands that a mediocre result as a function of time and budget?  Whatever they may say, up front, the expectation is of perfection.  Accepting their unreasonable terms puts you, immediately, on the defensive.

    But more important than that is to give  a detailed written report of what else needs to be done, and how much it will cost. Make sure you specify each repair, and/or regulation that needs to be done, and include in your report what will happen if the work is not done.

    Same no way Josie.  How much time will it take to aggregate such a thorough assessment and generate this un-remunerated document?  But most importantly, to whom?  You're following a guy who was charging $60 for a tuning, which is what the 'administration' perceives as the value of that work (in their DNA).  As responsible administrators, they will take your carefully crafted document and bid it out, to the cheapest vendor.  Thank you.

    I'm not presuming that the following review is related to the school in question, but, for the sake of this discussion, if it were, would one be inspired to take on the mission?

    Director, XXX has no people skills, no manners, she is unapproachable, very combative, and lacks business leadership qualities and business etiquette skills. On occasion, Director XXX has been rude and unprofessional towards me. She is a negative impact on the school which could reduce future enrollment. The website is extremely vague and lacking pertinent school information. There is no actual playground area, no grass, no dirt, no sand box, no absorbent surface material, just 100% asphalt for the children to run and fall on....

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 8.  RE: Interaction with a school teacher

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-17-2014 04:49
    David

    Just because I'm in the middle of the Pacific doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.  You don't understand the reason behind what I said. Tune and repair both pianos the best you can within the time limits and budget you're allowed. Gerry is allowed $300 to work on both pianos. That's his budget. It is presumed he will spend about an hour on each piano. He should be able to do something in that amount of time. So what's wrong with that? 

    As far as writing a report, he should do that during the time he spent tuning the pianos. Again, what's wrong with doing that?  It gives Gerry and the school a record of what needs to be done. (not to mention, as I said, protection against the work you didn't do).  Now, what the school does with the information is beyond his control. If they want to get someone cheaper to do the work, there is nothing he can do about that. I'm sure you've written an estimate which the customer used to find someone to do the work for less.

    I'm sorry, David, but your reaction to my remarks are wrong.


    -------------------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 9.  RE: Interaction with a school teacher

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-17-2014 09:08
    First of all, my aspersive sounding reference to the sea-islands from which you now hail was made with love and jealousy.  Your credentials were already in place from your years in the heartland.

    Second, my reaction to your comments "are" not wrong... 'it 'IS wrong (if it were, but I don't think it is.)

    Wim, I don't think you took the time to try to understand what I was trying to say (after the initial faux-Hawaii-slam).   What might or might not be done or how to present, address, educate these people might all be reasonable, in some circumstances, but I tried to frame my own reaction with some nuance and, of course, my own experience.  How many red-flags or travel hours would it take for you to demur on a job?  

    My questions are:
    - why would Gerry take this on?
    - is this a venue that can be educated to truly value pianos and the work we do?
    - how profit-positive, neutral, or negative, is this job likely to be, in the short term (travel time, labor, follow-up)?
    - how vulnerable does this make Gerry - " I value my position at the University and within the piano community"  in this age of Angie's List, where he could be trashed for making a noble effort?
    - what happened to the $60 per tuning guy?

    Finally, and perhaps, Wim's most serious offense (to me) is this:  
    It is presumed he will spend about an hour on each piano. He should be able to do something in that amount of time. So what's wrong with that? 

    He would be engaging a Wurlitzer upright that is just out of storage and described as both "badly out of tune" and "not atrocious", and  Kawai baby grand in an auditorium/gymnasium.  With one hour, he could probably:
    - locate the piano
    - locate the key to the piano
    - open piano
    - clean piano
    - make an assessment

    Yes, he could do something.  Let's not revisit the issue of how long a tuning should take.

    Now, if he needs the money to help defray the cost of the recently acquired Chris Brown work station, well that's another story.


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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 10.  RE: Interaction with a school teacher

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-17-2014 10:48
    I'll add a couple cents to the conversation. A given is the fact that it is likely a situation one would be simply to refer away: "Harrisburg is outside my service area, I don't have the time, etc." are my usual chosen options in that kind of circumstance. However, given the possibility that the personal relationship might make me feel the need to at least offer something, I think more communication is needed.

    I would start by noting the travel. I don't know the exact geography, but am guessing a 3 hour round trip is likely to be involved. So I would begin with that: "If I travel that far, it will cost you $X before I do any work at all. Hence, you probably don't want to pay me just to go there and tune two pianos. You can find someone else locally for less." 

    With that as a starting point, I would suggest that pianos as described would likely take a full day to a day and a half each to do a reasonably thorough prep job - a pure guess, as it might take longer depending on what was found. The result of that much work would hold up for a good bit of time, so the pianos could simply be tuned by someone local, with occasional visits to spend a day on the two pianos and refine them

    Then I might offer the possibility of going for one day, at $X rate and doing what was possible within that time. Following that day's work, I would be able to give a more precise assessment.

    Just some thoughts for consideration. Someone starting out in the profession would be likely to be more anxious to take the work and would give it a bit of a different spin. This is more along the lines of someone who doesn't need to expand an established clientele, but is willing if the details are suitable. I don't think, though, that simply throwing out that $500 figure was very helpful in establishing the needed communication - if anything is to come of it.
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "A mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled." Plutarch









  • 11.  RE: Interaction with a school teacher

    Posted 09-19-2014 09:39
    I hadn't realized the distance you had to go when I originally read your post. So, yes, I would say that's your "out" to not do the job. If you did it, it would mainly be as a favor to them. Not necessarily a bad reason to do it... if you want to. 

    So what have you decided to do?

    -------------------------------------------
    Scott Kerns
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Lincoln, NE
    www.thattuningguy.com
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  • 12.  RE: Interaction with a school teacher

    Posted 09-19-2014 13:45
    At first, why not simply redirect all the "tuning" discussion and offer up an estimate to do a diagnostic assessment of the instruments + whatever travel costs there might be? Then write up a narrative outlining the issues from most critical down to least critical while listing your costs to perform all repairs. That way you minimize the risk of running into additional fees (work) and the uncomfortable conversations that come with either asking for more money or describing why you left an issue open ended because your time is up. 

    Then let the school decide as to how they want to proceed with the recommended work after that. Either way, I would then communicate to them that you strongly suggest they hire an RPT as a suggestive way to say "you get what you pay for" whether it is you performing the work for them, or not. Analogies sometimes work too if well placed: It doesn't do any good to have an oil change when you are leaking oil from the valve cover.  

    I have been in low-ball situations within my architectural field, and people will try to bleed you as much as they can. If you don't value your work then who else will. :D

    This has been an interesting read for a new guy like me. 

    Good luck!

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    Jason Hennagir
    Woodbury MN
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  • 13.  RE: Interaction with a school teacher

    Posted 09-19-2014 16:52
    I don't think the job would be worth it to you with that travel time. I recently passed on one (1.5 hour away). Not only is there the drive but parking, will you have to park with a ten minute walk? Carrying tools??  Room availability, you'll get there and have one hour to do a three hour job because they all-of-a-sudden needed that room. Then you'll need to track down security and wait to gain access to the other locked rooms. More wasted time. Then you have that nice drive back home.

    Are there no qualified people in the area? Don't you have enough to do already?

    At the local community college (20 minutes away), I stipulated I needed to park beside the building, even though it's all marked 'no parking'. If a string breaks, I don't want to carry that case in with my tuning and basic tools nor walk out to the satellite parking to get it, or retrieve my second tool case which holds center pining tools and hammer extractors, etc.

    I only tune the D there (today),  the 5 U1's in concrete cubicles, I let another tuner have :-)

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    Regards,

    Jon Page