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  • 1.  Catastrophic Joint Failure on Sohmer 45 inch studio

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2014 17:02
      |   view attached

    Friends and Colleagues,

     

    The attached photo is looking from treble side to bass, top view, of the failed glue joint between the back and pinblock of a Model 45 Sohmer studio.  With the lid raised, you can clearly see the 3/8 to ½ inch gap that has allowed the plate and action brackets to cant toward the keyboard and make the instrument totally unplayable. The gap extends nearly to the lower edge of the pinblock.  Before rushing into the project and as  this is a piano worthy of a go at repairing it,  I wanted to gather some collective wisdom and experience of anyone else who might have seen and dealt with this problem. 

     

    Right now my thinking and procedure lines up like this:

     

    1.        Remove action, keys, etc.

    2.       Decrease tension, but not remove the strings.

    3.       Remove top plate bolts

    4.       As the only access to the glue joint is from top, remove as best as possible any wood chips that might be showing proud in the joint with various thin cutting tools. Blow out with high pressure air.

    5.       Dry fit with multiple clamps along the entire length of the fault to ensure there has been no side slippage between the pin block and the back.  As the lower plate bolts will be not be removed, the side movement should be minimized or eliminated at best.

    6.       After removing clamps and wedging the gap as wide open as possible, apply slow setting glue into the gap using thin glue spreaders and multiple glue persons along the entire length of the gap.  Right now I am thinking cold hide as my first choice, but definitely open to other suggestions.

    7.       Clamp along entire length of glue joint.  Allow to set up.

    8.       Replace top plate screws  with large bolts that go thru the entire pinblock and back assembly.

    9.       Bring strings back up to tension, reassemble action and keys and tune. 

     

    I am concerned about the amount of access that the gap allows for applying adequate glue.  I welcome any comments or suggestions.

     

    Best to all,

    Anthony J. Pascone RPT

    Registered Piano Technician

    Pascali Piano

    (919) 309-7788

    www.pascalipiano.com

     

     



  • 2.  RE: Catastrophic Joint Failure on Sohmer 45 inch studio

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2014 20:00
    For me, this has been a standard procedure for many years, essentially as you describe (though rarely quite as wide open a crack as you show). I have always used Titebond or the like as the adhesive. You will want to lower tension on the strings a lot, for that large a gap, no pitch so to speak, and possibly lower it more as you tighten clamps. I remove screws, pull it together with clamps, then drill all the way through at the points where the screws were for 5/16" to 3/8" bolts (in line with the diameter of the existing plate holes). Install carriage bolts (head from the back), with a washer, don't tighten nuts. Remove clamps so it opens up, insert glue, spread with metal spatulas (pallet knives from art supply house), re-clamp, tighten bolts. 

    I find the bolts are really enough to hold it together, and I have successfully tuned right away on several occasions (avoiding a second trip on an old upright), with quite reasonable tuning stability and no subsequent problems. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
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  • 3.  RE:Catastrophic Joint Failure on Sohmer 45 inch studio

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2014 22:29
    I have done a couple that were about this bad. One of them (a Story & Clark with a fill strip that had to be removed first) we did it as a chapter together--in Waco- Heart of Texas Chapter. Fred has done a great job of describing what we did & the way I currently do it now. The only things I would add is that I would definitely use the larger 3/8 carriage bolts. I would also highly recommend several really beefy extra large c-clamps to draw it back together along with the bolts. Do a "dry run" to test, then back it all off enough to fill in with lots of Titebond. (Do NOT recommend cold hide for this!)
    My favorite clamps are Jorgenson I - beam clamps, but they have to be ordered & are really expensive. Which is why (unless one is expecting to doing more of these in the future) I suggest high quality heavy duty C-clamps. The USA made ones work well for me. (Harbor Freight/China made ones DO twist & fail- don't ask!) Allow plenty of time to dry, remove clamps, chip, pitch & tune until stable.
    Best wishes, Kevin

    -------------------------------------------
    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
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  • 4.  RE: Catastrophic Joint Failure on Sohmer 45 inch studio

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-22-2014 08:31
    Anthony

    Everyone is in agreement here so the only thing I can add is that you may want to use a soundboard steel for your glue spatula.  You can get very deep penetration with this simple tool and insure that your glue is spread around evenly.  

    -------------------------------------------
    Norman Cantrell
    Piano Clinic
    Lawton OK
    580-355-5003
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  • 5.  RE: Catastrophic Joint Failure on Sohmer 45 inch studio

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-22-2014 08:54
    Anthony,
    Fred and Kevin have given you great advice.  I've done a few of these as well.  The only thing I would add/caution is contained in their advice but not specifically.  I would NOT let the glue set up before inserting and tightening up the bolts.  Your clamps should draw the opening together but I would prefer to know that my bolts are what's holding it all together.  Otherwise, when you release the clamps you may have some release if your bolts are not snug.  I hope that makes sense.  One other thing is to make sure you tighten each bolt in increments, kind of like tuning a drum head or tightening the bolts on a car wheel.  Be careful when drilling that you don't make the backside hole any larger than the bolt shaft if you're using carriage bolts. Otherwise they may not grab adequately to hold.  They look better than hex heads but you may need to use pan heads with a Phillips or Allen if you can find them in the right size.

    Best wishes. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Gary Bruce, RPT
    Bruce Piano Service
    Edmond, OK
    405-413-TUNE
    www.brucepiano.com
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  • 6.  RE: Catastrophic Joint Failure on Sohmer 45 inch studio

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-22-2014 09:10
    I'm responding to this cross-posted question (PTG Pianotech/CAUT) by similarly cross-posting my questions/observations, since, at this point, the two conversations seem incomplete without one another.  On CAUT, Fred Sturm and Kevin Fortenberry have proposed a very specific methodology,which is similar to what was put forward by Blaine Hebert, and refined by John Ross, on PTG Pianotech, with some, possibly significant differences- to lower or not to lower tension. Meanwhile, the concern about the significance of the size of the gap, and the possibility of cracks in the plate have been raised in Pianotech, but not CAUT.

    - given size of gap, which component is flexing (I'm assuming it's the plate/pinblock)?  
    - what would cause such a complete structural failure? 
    - is there any remaining attachment between pinblock and back? 

    In actually proceeding, the differences between Fred's method and Blaine's could be significant.
    Differences:
    - Fred pre-lowers tension, pre-clamps (to dry-drill bolt holes) and pre-inserts carriage bolts. He assumes he can get adequate glue into gap without the string tension to keep gap open
    - Blaine starts with glue application, then tightens (pre-positioned) clamps, then drills, installs and tightens carriage bolts. Presumably (my assumptions), Blaine does not lower tension because:
    - unnecessarily consumes time?
    - gap will close, making glue application more difficult?
    - other?

    Apart from the fact that neither addressed the concern, raised by David Renaud (Pianotech) with regard to possible cracked plate, I have some questions/concerns with Blaine's approach:

    - hard to judge, or control amount of glue required with large gap
    - advises to work quickly after glue has been applied, but has us lowering tension between glue app. and tightening clamps.

    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 7.  RE: Catastrophic Joint Failure on Sohmer 45 inch studio

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-29-2014 20:30
    To One & All:

    Thank you all for your input, recommendations and shared experience with this CJF.   I shall digest, synthesize and implement a revised plan of repair for this instrument based on the results of this discussion.  In that this is clearly a case in which the "devil is in the details", I am particularly thankful for all the nuanced details that came with your posts.

    Journal Editor Ed Sutton RPT has asked me to document photographically the repair  and perhaps submit an article in the Journal upon successful (hopefully) completion of the repair.  

    -------------------------------------------
    Anthony J. Pascone RPT
    Registered Piano Technician
    Pascali Piano
    Durham, NC
    919-309-7788
    Research Triangle Chapter #275
    -------------------------------------------