Discussion: View Thread

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: Pianotech and CAUT .
-------------------------------------------
Hello fellow techs,

Has anyone had success with softening Renner Blue hammers that have been over lacquered in the past? This is for a new client of mine with a 1930's M&H model A. It was rebuilt about two years ago with new hammers, shanks & flanges, new soundboard (!), restrung with new pinblock, etc. 

It is not excessively bright, but needs to be voiced down. On my first visit, the client described the feeling of being "hit in the face" with the volume. I tried some needling, but found that someone else had attempted the same with little results. I was considering trying a little bit of acetone to "redistribute" the lacquer. I'll be doing a light reconditioning and regulation on it this weekend.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,
Jeff

-------------------------------------------
Jeff Farris
Austin TX
512-636-1914
-------------------------------------------

That's the avenue I would take unless you found out the hammers were hardened another way other than lacquer.

Have vice grips at the ready also.

-------------------------------------------
-Phil Bondi
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 7/23/2014 1:43:41 PM
From: jeff@farriswheel.net
Subject: Softening hammers

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: Pianotech and CAUT . ------------------------------------------- Hello fellow techs, Has anyone had success with softening Renner Blue hammers that have been over lacquered in the past? This is for a new client of mine with a 1930's M&H model A. It was rebuilt about two years ago with new hammers, shanks & flanges, new soundboard (!), restrung with new pinblock, etc.  It is not excessively bright, but needs to be voiced down. On my first visit, the client described the feeling of being "hit in the face" with the volume. I tried some needling, but found that someone else had attempted the same with little results. I was considering trying a little bit of acetone to "redistribute" the lacquer. I'll be doing a light reconditioning and regulation on it this weekend. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance, Jeff ------------------------------------------- Jeff Farris Austin TX 512-636-1914 -------------------------------------------

Jeff,

I have had success using Hammer Softener (THS) from Pianotek Supply Company on over lacquered hammers, but not specifically on Renner Blue hammers.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
kam544@allegiance.tv
[Visual Tuning Platform User]
[iRCT & OnlyPure ]
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 07-23-2014 13:43
From: Jeff Farris
Subject: Softening hammers

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: Pianotech and CAUT .
-------------------------------------------
Hello fellow techs,

Has anyone had success with softening Renner Blue hammers that have been over lacquered in the past? This is for a new client of mine with a 1930's M&H model A. It was rebuilt about two years ago with new hammers, shanks & flanges, new soundboard (!), restrung with new pinblock, etc. 

It is not excessively bright, but needs to be voiced down. On my first visit, the client described the feeling of being "hit in the face" with the volume. I tried some needling, but found that someone else had attempted the same with little results. I was considering trying a little bit of acetone to "redistribute" the lacquer. I'll be doing a light reconditioning and regulation on it this weekend.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,
Jeff

-------------------------------------------
Jeff Farris
Austin TX
512-636-1914
-------------------------------------------

Soak the lacquer out. See my article in PTJ June, 2009, p. 36. Also search archives. A search on "removing lacquer from hammers" gets a good start. This was a pretty good thread on the subject.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 07-23-2014 13:43
From: Jeff Farris
Subject: Softening hammers

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: Pianotech and CAUT .
-------------------------------------------
Hello fellow techs,

Has anyone had success with softening Renner Blue hammers that have been over lacquered in the past? This is for a new client of mine with a 1930's M&H model A. It was rebuilt about two years ago with new hammers, shanks & flanges, new soundboard (!), restrung with new pinblock, etc. 

It is not excessively bright, but needs to be voiced down. On my first visit, the client described the feeling of being "hit in the face" with the volume. I tried some needling, but found that someone else had attempted the same with little results. I was considering trying a little bit of acetone to "redistribute" the lacquer. I'll be doing a light reconditioning and regulation on it this weekend.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,
Jeff

-------------------------------------------
Jeff Farris
Austin TX
512-636-1914
-------------------------------------------

Hi Jeff,

How did you determine the hammers had been lacquered?

Best,
DP

-------------------------------------------
Dale Probst
Registered Piano Technician
Wichita Falls TX
dale@wardprobst.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 07-23-2014 16:23
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Softening hammers

Soak the lacquer out. See my article in PTJ June, 2009, p. 36. Also search archives. A search on "removing lacquer from hammers" gets a good start. This was a pretty good thread on the subject.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 07-23-2014 13:43
From: Jeff Farris
Subject: Softening hammers

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: Pianotech and CAUT .
-------------------------------------------
Hello fellow techs,

Has anyone had success with softening Renner Blue hammers that have been over lacquered in the past? This is for a new client of mine with a 1930's M&H model A. It was rebuilt about two years ago with new hammers, shanks & flanges, new soundboard (!), restrung with new pinblock, etc. 

It is not excessively bright, but needs to be voiced down. On my first visit, the client described the feeling of being "hit in the face" with the volume. I tried some needling, but found that someone else had attempted the same with little results. I was considering trying a little bit of acetone to "redistribute" the lacquer. I'll be doing a light reconditioning and regulation on it this weekend.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,
Jeff

-------------------------------------------
Jeff Farris
Austin TX
512-636-1914
-------------------------------------------

Dale's question is a good one. If you assume they were lacquered simply because they are very bright, that is a bad assumption. Renner hammers in general are quite dense/hard, and will produce a very bright sound out of the box. They need to be deep needled to develop a good range of tone, and some of the harder versions (especially the ones they make for Hamburg Steinway, but Renner Premium Blue as well) need A LOT of needling.

Check the Voicing the Renner Hammer for some details of recommended techniques. When the hammers are already hung, it can be next to impossible to press the needles in when you use the classic "keyframe in your lap" approach, using forearm muscles. Much better to support the hammers on a bench. You can pull the stack and insert something like a length of 2 x 4 under the tails for support, with the hammerheads as close to the edge of the bench as possible. Then stand, and use your weight to press the needles in. For very hard hammers, the first insertion should start at the widest part of the hammer profile and should go in parallel with the lower shoulder. The next insertion should be a couple mm above and parallel to the first, etc. That way you open the outer layers of the hammer in turn, allowing penetration deeper inside as you move up.

You can also keep the stack on, and support the hammers with angle iron spanning the stack and supported on blocks on each end. See this set of photos (the first three - the others are for upright) to get the idea.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 07-23-2014 16:45
From: Dale Probst
Subject: Softening hammers

Hi Jeff,

How did you determine the hammers had been lacquered?

Best,
DP

-------------------------------------------
Dale Probst
Registered Piano Technician
Wichita Falls TX
dale@wardprobst.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 07-23-2014 16:23
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Softening hammers

Soak the lacquer out. See my article in PTJ June, 2009, p. 36. Also search archives. A search on "removing lacquer from hammers" gets a good start. This was a pretty good thread on the subject.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 07-23-2014 13:43
From: Jeff Farris
Subject: Softening hammers

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: Pianotech and CAUT .
-------------------------------------------
Hello fellow techs,

Has anyone had success with softening Renner Blue hammers that have been over lacquered in the past? This is for a new client of mine with a 1930's M&H model A. It was rebuilt about two years ago with new hammers, shanks & flanges, new soundboard (!), restrung with new pinblock, etc. 

It is not excessively bright, but needs to be voiced down. On my first visit, the client described the feeling of being "hit in the face" with the volume. I tried some needling, but found that someone else had attempted the same with little results. I was considering trying a little bit of acetone to "redistribute" the lacquer. I'll be doing a light reconditioning and regulation on it this weekend.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,
Jeff

-------------------------------------------
Jeff Farris
Austin TX
512-636-1914
-------------------------------------------

Why not refer the owner of the Mason back to the technician who installed those hammers? ---let him or her follow up with voicing. Do Masons ( including the new Masons) with Renner blues EVER resemble the sound those pianos originally had? A big NO. So why use them? Dump the hammers. ------------------------------------------- Mary Schwendeman Baltimore Md -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 07-23-2014 13:43 From: Jeff Farris Subject: Softening hammers This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: Pianotech and CAUT . ------------------------------------------- Hello fellow techs, Has anyone had success with softening Renner Blue hammers that have been over lacquered in the past? This is for a new client of mine with a 1930's M&H model A. It was rebuilt about two years ago with new hammers, shanks & flanges, new soundboard (!), restrung with new pinblock, etc. It is not excessively bright, but needs to be voiced down. On my first visit, the client described the feeling of being "hit in the face" with the volume. I tried some needling, but found that someone else had attempted the same with little results. I was considering trying a little bit of acetone to "redistribute" the lacquer. I'll be doing a light reconditioning and regulation on it this weekend. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance, Jeff ------------------------------------------- Jeff Farris Austin TX 512-636-1914 -------------------------------------------

Thanks for the responses. 

I figured they are lacquered because I have worked with new Renner Blues a lot (and have personally almost never felt the need to lacquer them except in isolated situations). When initially trying to do some needling on this set, I could see needle marks from before, and the surface of the felt seems hard and smooth rather than fluffy and workable. They aren't excessively bright, but quite loud, and inconsistent. The client unfortunately bought this piano already rebuilt from somewhere in the northeast (we're in Texas!) so the person who "voiced" them before is out of the loop. The client is unable to afford a new set of hammers at this time.


-------------------------------------------
Jeff Farris
Austin TX
512-636-1914
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 07-23-2014 21:33
From: Mary Schwendeman
Subject: Softening hammers



Why not refer the owner of the Mason back to the technician who installed those hammers?
---let him or her follow up with voicing.

Do Masons ( including the new Masons) with Renner blues EVER resemble the sound those pianos originally had?
A big NO.
So why use them?

Dump the hammers.




-------------------------------------------
Mary Schwendeman
Baltimore Md
-------------------------------------------

Jeff, what about contacting the rebuilder for background?
No accusations, just "here's how it sounds in their home"
and get information on what's been done so you know
where to go with the hammers. 

-------------------------------------------
Ruth Zeiner
ruth@alliedpiano.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 07-24-2014 08:24
From: Jeff Farris
Subject: Softening hammers

Thanks for the responses. 

I figured they are lacquered because I have worked with new Renner Blues a lot (and have personally almost never felt the need to lacquer them except in isolated situations). When initially trying to do some needling on this set, I could see needle marks from before, and the surface of the felt seems hard and smooth rather than fluffy and workable. They aren't excessively bright, but quite loud, and inconsistent. The client unfortunately bought this piano already rebuilt from somewhere in the northeast (we're in Texas!) so the person who "voiced" them before is out of the loop. The client is unable to afford a new set of hammers at this time.


-------------------------------------------
Jeff Farris
Austin TX
512-636-1914
-------------------------------------------

I would have a backup hammer ready in case this goes badly. Pick the worst hammer (or the hammer you have a backup that matches). Saturate the hammer with lacquer thinner, let it dry in playing position. If that makes a dramatic improvement, Fred has a good method for doing a whole set. 
If the sample gets worse, I'd steam the shoulders lightly with a cloth and heat controlled iron of the second worst. If that gets better and helps to get needles where you need them, you are aces. 
I think the second solution will help you but the real fix may be another set of hammers. I'd have the customer contact the rebuilder and see what they say. 

Best,
DP

-------------------------------------------
Dale Probst
Registered Piano Technician
Wichita Falls TX
dale@wardprobst.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 07-24-2014 09:35
From: Ruth Zeiner
Subject: Softening hammers


Jeff, what about contacting the rebuilder for background?
No accusations, just "here's how it sounds in their home"
and get information on what's been done so you know
where to go with the hammers. 

-------------------------------------------
Ruth Zeiner
ruth@alliedpiano.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 07-24-2014 08:24
From: Jeff Farris
Subject: Softening hammers

Thanks for the responses. 

I figured they are lacquered because I have worked with new Renner Blues a lot (and have personally almost never felt the need to lacquer them except in isolated situations). When initially trying to do some needling on this set, I could see needle marks from before, and the surface of the felt seems hard and smooth rather than fluffy and workable. They aren't excessively bright, but quite loud, and inconsistent. The client unfortunately bought this piano already rebuilt from somewhere in the northeast (we're in Texas!) so the person who "voiced" them before is out of the loop. The client is unable to afford a new set of hammers at this time.


-------------------------------------------
Jeff Farris
Austin TX
512-636-1914
-------------------------------------------

I can't recall all of the points to Fred's linked material regarding soaking lacquer out of hammers. I have had some success adding a very small amount of water to the acetone to help swell up the felt and soften it. The acetone will evaporate long before the water so the lacquer will be "stretched out" before the felt dries out. The full drying will take a couple of days. I would avoid heating the hammers to speed the drying up. I tried it once to rush a job and ruined the hammers. Fortunately, it was on my own piano so no expensive bad news for a customer.

Also you will need to make some judgements across the compass as regards proportion of water. What might give great results at hammer 20 could be a disaster at hammer 60. Good Luck!!

I hate Renner Blue hammers!!!

-------------------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 07-24-2014 19:18
From: Dale Probst
Subject: Softening hammers

I would have a backup hammer ready in case this goes badly. Pick the worst hammer (or the hammer you have a backup that matches). Saturate the hammer with lacquer thinner, let it dry in playing position. If that makes a dramatic improvement, Fred has a good method for doing a whole set. 
If the sample gets worse, I'd steam the shoulders lightly with a cloth and heat controlled iron of the second worst. If that gets better and helps to get needles where you need them, you are aces. 
I think the second solution will help you but the real fix may be another set of hammers. I'd have the customer contact the rebuilder and see what they say. 

Best,
DP

-------------------------------------------
Dale Probst
Registered Piano Technician
Wichita Falls TX
dale@wardprobst.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 07-24-2014 09:35
From: Ruth Zeiner
Subject: Softening hammers


Jeff, what about contacting the rebuilder for background?
No accusations, just "here's how it sounds in their home"
and get information on what's been done so you know
where to go with the hammers. 

-------------------------------------------
Ruth Zeiner
ruth@alliedpiano.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 07-24-2014 08:24
From: Jeff Farris
Subject: Softening hammers

Thanks for the responses. 

I figured they are lacquered because I have worked with new Renner Blues a lot (and have personally almost never felt the need to lacquer them except in isolated situations). When initially trying to do some needling on this set, I could see needle marks from before, and the surface of the felt seems hard and smooth rather than fluffy and workable. They aren't excessively bright, but quite loud, and inconsistent. The client unfortunately bought this piano already rebuilt from somewhere in the northeast (we're in Texas!) so the person who "voiced" them before is out of the loop. The client is unable to afford a new set of hammers at this time.


-------------------------------------------
Jeff Farris
Austin TX
512-636-1914
-------------------------------------------

Ed,

I don't claim to know more than you, but my experience with using a Ungar Heat Gun to speed up the process of evaporating the Acetone has not hampered me in finding out the results I need to know rather than waiting a couple of days. It has not ruined the results thus far in my small universe of experience.

I simply can't wait to know if the results are positive or negative when on location. It only takes a few test subjects in a relative short period of time to know if I should continue with the process or not.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
kam544@allegiance.tv
[Visual Tuning Platform User]
[iRCT & OnlyPure ]

Original Message:
Sent: 07-25-2014 00:23
From: Edward McMorrow
...   I would avoid heating the hammers to speed the drying up. I tried it once to rush a job and ruined the hammers. Fortunately, it was on my own piano so no expensive bad news for a customer.  ...

Hi Keith, all,

I've used heat before but found out that it was mostly the air, and not the heat that seemed to dry it out. I took a very strong blow dryer and used the cold function and it seemed to work as well as the heat. Then I used an air hose and found out that it worked the very best. They call this "off-gassing" and in 10 or 15 minutes they are 90% or more. I've done maybe 8 sets.

The problem that Ed talks about is well founded. The unger gun is very hot, on either setting one, or two. I ruined a couple hammers by getting them too hot. They came slightly unglued (separation) from the molding. If you're careful (as I bet you are) that probably won't happen, especially if it is held not too close. But with the air compressor I found it to be quicker and if you point it right on the crown it seemed to blow the stuff off the crown and deeper towards the molding, which is exactly where you want it to be hard.

Wally Brooks teaches something that I've found enlightening; the felt between the molding and the crown can be divided into thirds. The third that is next to the molding should be hard and never touched. The middle third can be needled, but only when nothing else works. The top third is where you can work the felt for voicing. (This is, of course, after all shoulder needling is done and you're doing the fine voicing) This visual of the thirds has been revolutionary for me over the years.

If someone wants to put this thread on "voicing" I'd appreciate it. It's definitely apropos to CAUT too.

Jim Busby



-------------------------------------------
James Busby
Mt Pleasant UT
801-422-3400
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 07-25-2014 01:42
From: Keith McGavern
Subject: Softening hammers

Ed,

I don't claim to know more than you, but my experience with using a Ungar Heat Gun to speed up the process of evaporating the Acetone has not hampered me in finding out the results I need to know rather than waiting a couple of days. It has not ruined the results thus far in my small universe of experience.

I simply can't wait to know if the results are positive or negative when on location. It only takes a few test subjects in a relative short period of time to know if I should continue with the process or not.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
kam544@allegiance.tv
[Visual Tuning Platform User]
[iRCT & OnlyPure ]

Original Message:
Sent: 07-25-2014 00:23
From: Edward McMorrow
...   I would avoid heating the hammers to speed the drying up. I tried it once to rush a job and ruined the hammers. Fortunately, it was on my own piano so no expensive bad news for a customer.  ...

Over-treated hammers can be soaked with acetone and then blow the solids away from the crown with a compressor. Sometimes it's enough. Towels draped across front and back to contain spatter.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Tks for the heads up, Jim, on "... mostly the air, and not the heat ..."

The Ungar I use does have a non-heat selection to cool down (45 seconds recommended) the parts inside after using the heat selection, so will experiment with just air next time.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
kam544@allegiance.tv
[Visual Tuning Platform User]
[iRCT & OnlyPure ]

Original Message:
Sent: 07-25-2014 09:18
From: James Busby
...  I've used heat before but found out that it was mostly the air, and not the heat that seemed to dry it out. 

Keith I meant to say if you add water to the acetone to "puff" the felt up using a heat gun to dry out the water did not work for me. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. If you are just drying solvent-heat is not a problem-at least until you reach the flash point!
Ed

-------------------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 07-25-2014 01:42
From: Keith McGavern
Subject: Softening hammers

Ed,

I don't claim to know more than you, but my experience with using a Ungar Heat Gun to speed up the process of evaporating the Acetone has not hampered me in finding out the results I need to know rather than waiting a couple of days. It has not ruined the results thus far in my small universe of experience.

I simply can't wait to know if the results are positive or negative when on location. It only takes a few test subjects in a relative short period of time to know if I should continue with the process or not.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
kam544@allegiance.tv
[Visual Tuning Platform User]
[iRCT & OnlyPure ]

Original Message:
Sent: 07-25-2014 00:23
From: Edward McMorrow
...   I would avoid heating the hammers to speed the drying up. I tried it once to rush a job and ruined the hammers. Fortunately, it was on my own piano so no expensive bad news for a customer.  ...

Thanks, Ed, for your clarification. I must admit, I got a bit confused along the way in this thread, but all is well now.
(Thanks to you too, Jim B, for helping me to become un-confused.)

Ah, yes Ed, the flash point. Seems like I have an earlier memory stored somewhere in my brainiac concerning "flash point".
(btw: in using the word, brainiac, I definitely did not intend to imply that I am "an exceptionally intelligent person" by dictionary definition. Far from that :-))

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
kam544@allegiance.tv
[Visual Tuning Platform User]
[iRCT & OnlyPure ]

Original Message:
Sent: 07-25-2014 12:22
From: Edward McMorrow
...  Keith I meant to say if you add water to the acetone to "puff" the felt up using a heat gun to dry out the water did not work for me. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. If you are just drying solvent-heat is not a problem-at least until you reach the flash point!  ...