Discussion: View Thread

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: CAUT and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
In an institution setting, individual string replacement can be problematic in terms of the excessive/unnecessary amount of weight carried around (i.e., one rarely knows ahead of time what string sizes will be needed--especially, when a string replacement request is followed by rounds to check for the others out there).

At LSU, my solution to this problem was to have assistants pre-cut, clean/polish, and store the wires in heavy-duty square plastic bags (i.e., @c.10 strings). Each bag had printed labels to identify content--they were re-used/re-filled when empty. Small desiccants were used to [theoretically] help control moisture and maintain the string quality (i.e., it worked, as far as we could tell; it may, or may not, have been necessary). The small bags of strings were grouped into larger bag groupings--for quick inventory control and planning purposes--then stored/filed in the bottom of a filing cabinet for convenient access to all things strings. 

A small collection of necessary string sizes were bagged together in one ready-to-go stringing bag (i.e., 1-2 bags [of c.10 each] of the most needed string size replacements + a few individual strings in the extended ranges). This made for an extremely light-weight, compact/flat, collection of replacement strings that could easily in tote (e.g., it is also great for travel...and/or for leaving in the car for emergencies). Also at the ready: a dedicated collection of the necessary restringing tools--which were off-limits for all other purposes. String replacement was a simple matter of grabbing two bags and going to the piano (i.e., nothing to search for; nothing to think through).

Having everything organised, with the strings [roughly] pre-cut to length and pre-cleaned/polished, was a huge time-saver when it came to individual string replacement. Also, it should be noted: the process of preparing the strings en masse is more time efficient than doing the work individually at the piano (i.e., with the extra tooling pickups-and-putdowns involved).

I still like and recommend the above method (i.e., for its compact and light size), but I have modified my preparation en masse to also include: 1.the hitchpin bend and 2.storing the strings in straight tubes. 

There are multiple sources of false-beat-like anomalies that can make an in situ appearance: aggressively whacking the speaking-length side of the string, at an angle towards the bridgepin+wood (i.e., an apparent attempt to "seat-the-string" or "sharpen-the-bend"), seems to be the worst cause; overaggressive string levelling can cause false-beats [BTW, overweight hammers can produce similar wire deformations--which worsens the metallic string buzzing sounds--and produces similar false-beat results]; but, the notable source of false-beats relevant to this post, is unintentional installation of twist in the wire (i.e., which naturally takes place during the installation, when specific attention to detail is not applied during the process).

If you've ever wondered why so much string levelling is sometimes necessary, then consider the consequences of allowing the natural curvature of the wire to radically differ for every string, +small the unintentionally installed twists, that then all change the orientation around each point of contact [in a completely differently manner] (e.g., bridge pins, front termination, etc.). NOTE: this is particularly an issue with pianos using a single string wrapped around the hitchpin to produce two speaking lengths (i.e., there are many points of contact for the string curvature/orientation to change; with care and planning, it doesn't have to). Making hitchpin bends so that the wires run parallel before installation, to avoid twists during installation, will help ensure a consistent response around each point of contact = a naturally occurring string level to which the hammer can then be fitted = an overall reduction in the appearance of false-beats (i.e., less twist; less levelling).
-------------------------------------------
Bradley Snook
Wien
-------------------------------------------

Thanks Bradley,
I have been inspired by your postings regarding uniform string curvature orientation to do all of my recent stringing jobs that way and am pleased with the results. One was a recently, (5 years ago) restrung piano with too many false treble notes so I restrung the treble with uniform string curvature orientation and was pleased by the improved clarity.

I too deplore beating the strings into the bridge pins and wood. I can't for the life of me understand why this technique has remained in vogue with some techs.

-------------------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-18-2015 15:06
From: Bradley Snook
Subject: Restringing prep en masse

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: CAUT and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
In an institution setting, individual string replacement can be problematic in terms of the excessive/unnecessary amount of weight carried around (i.e., one rarely knows ahead of time what string sizes will be needed--especially, when a string replacement request is followed by rounds to check for the others out there).

At LSU, my solution to this problem was to have assistants pre-cut, clean/polish, and store the wires in heavy-duty square plastic bags (i.e., @c.10 strings). Each bag had printed labels to identify content--they were re-used/re-filled when empty. Small desiccants were used to [theoretically] help control moisture and maintain the string quality (i.e., it worked, as far as we could tell; it may, or may not, have been necessary). The small bags of strings were grouped into larger bag groupings--for quick inventory control and planning purposes--then stored/filed in the bottom of a filing cabinet for convenient access to all things strings. 

A small collection of necessary string sizes were bagged together in one ready-to-go stringing bag (i.e., 1-2 bags [of c.10 each] of the most needed string size replacements + a few individual strings in the extended ranges). This made for an extremely light-weight, compact/flat, collection of replacement strings that could easily in tote (e.g., it is also great for travel...and/or for leaving in the car for emergencies). Also at the ready: a dedicated collection of the necessary restringing tools--which were off-limits for all other purposes. String replacement was a simple matter of grabbing two bags and going to the piano (i.e., nothing to search for; nothing to think through).

Having everything organised, with the strings [roughly] pre-cut to length and pre-cleaned/polished, was a huge time-saver when it came to individual string replacement. Also, it should be noted: the process of preparing the strings en masse is more time efficient than doing the work individually at the piano (i.e., with the extra tooling pickups-and-putdowns involved).

I still like and recommend the above method (i.e., for its compact and light size), but I have modified my preparation en masse to also include: 1.the hitchpin bend and 2.storing the strings in straight tubes. 

There are multiple sources of false-beat-like anomalies that can make an in situ appearance: aggressively whacking the speaking-length side of the string, at an angle towards the bridgepin+wood (i.e., an apparent attempt to "seat-the-string" or "sharpen-the-bend"), seems to be the worst cause; overaggressive string levelling can cause false-beats [BTW, overweight hammers can produce similar wire deformations--which worsens the metallic string buzzing sounds--and produces similar false-beat results]; but, the notable source of false-beats relevant to this post, is unintentional installation of twist in the wire (i.e., which naturally takes place during the installation, when specific attention to detail is not applied during the process).

If you've ever wondered why so much string levelling is sometimes necessary, then consider the consequences of allowing the natural curvature of the wire to radically differ for every string, +small the unintentionally installed twists, that then all change the orientation around each point of contact [in a completely differently manner] (e.g., bridge pins, front termination, etc.). NOTE: this is particularly an issue with pianos using a single string wrapped around the hitchpin to produce two speaking lengths (i.e., there are many points of contact for the string curvature/orientation to change; with care and planning, it doesn't have to). Making hitchpin bends so that the wires run parallel before installation, to avoid twists during installation, will help ensure a consistent response around each point of contact = a naturally occurring string level to which the hammer can then be fitted = an overall reduction in the appearance of false-beats (i.e., less twist; less levelling).
-------------------------------------------
Bradley Snook
Wien
-------------------------------------------

I have been uniform utilizing string curvature orientation since the late '70's. I'll remove enough wire fro the anticipated length. Index the hitch with my fingers with the open end beyond the tuning pin. Cut the other segment against that length. Then, with the coil perpendicular to the plate, I'll make the bend around the hitch. This was the result of wanting to cut the wire with the same tension so asa to get consistent beckets. I started with using four fingers as a gage but now use the Becket Tool (in the archives). Also, John McDonald, RPT, RIP pointed out that it might be a good idea to lay the wire as it comes off the spool in the factory. So the curvature is in the upwards direction.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

I'm not sure I entirely understand your method, but perhaps it will become clearer to me after any further discussion,  Meanwhile, I'd like to understand if the various assumptions about wire characteristics and false beats, thus far expressed, represent an unchallenged consensus. 

Bradley Snook says:
a naturally occurring string level to which the hammer can then be fitted = an overall reduction in the appearance of false-beats (i.e., less twist; less levelling).

- Is there a 'natural' curvature of wire that asserts itself once a piano is strung?  
- Is there such a thing as 'naturally occurring string level'?
- Is the traditional string leveling, done after piano is strung, a product of inconsistent observation of 'natural wire curvature'?
- Is it accepted fact that a twist in the length of wire will cause 'false beats'?  How severe would such twist have to be?

-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2015 07:11
From: Jon Page
Subject: Restringing prep en masse

I have been uniform utilizing string curvature orientation since the late '70's. I'll remove enough wire fro the anticipated length. Index the hitch with my fingers with the open end beyond the tuning pin. Cut the other segment against that length. Then, with the coil perpendicular to the plate, I'll make the bend around the hitch. This was the result of wanting to cut the wire with the same tension so asa to get consistent beckets. I started with using four fingers as a gage but now use the Becket Tool (in the archives). Also, John McDonald, RPT, RIP pointed out that it might be a good idea to lay the wire as it comes off the spool in the factory. So the curvature is in the upwards direction.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Some good questions David. Let me just say 2 things. First, I DO use a State-mate (very carefully. By the book. Don't OVER-DO IT!! Be careful--any other way I can say it?) with VERY good results. Consistently really good results. HOWEVER,
One of my first RE-stringings was on a Steinway, old Model A scale. It was for a private school, and although I had been doing re-strings for another Tech for several years, I did not even have a strate mate at the time and was in a huge time crunch--don't ask. Anyway, it turned out to be one of my better RE-stringings. I just touched up the string leveling and basically just "went with it" allowing the strings to form their own shape around the Vee bar, etc. (Perhaps this is what is trying to be said)
So here was my "take away":
It's better, (if one does not have really good tools, and really good technique),
To not "jack around", bend around, lift, twist, etc etc at will or experimentally and the like. Be better off to just let the strings form their natural curve, fix any damper issues, buzzes that may POSSIBLY happen one at a time by individual lifting. But being careful & conscientious.
Hope this helps!!!

-------------------------------------------
Kevin Fortenberry
Registered Piano Technician
Lubbock TX
806-778-3962
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 5/20/2015 10:03:53 AM
From: davidskolnik@optonline.net
Subject: RE: Restringing prep en masse

I'm not sure I entirely understand your method, but perhaps it will become clearer to me after any further discussion,  Meanwhile, I'd like to understand if the various assumptions about wire characteristics and false beats, thus far expressed, represent an unchallenged consensus.  Bradley Snook says: a naturally occurring string level to which the hammer can then be fitted = an overall reduction in the appearance of false-beats (i.e., less twist; less levelling). - Is there a 'natural' curvature of wire that asserts itself once a piano is strung?   - Is there such a thing as 'naturally occurring string level'? - Is the traditional string leveling, done after piano is strung, a product of inconsistent observation of 'natural wire curvature'? - Is it accepted fact that a twist in the length of wire will cause 'false beats'?  How severe would such twist have to be? ------------------------------------------- David Skolnik Hastings-on-Hudson NY 914-231-7565 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 05-20-2015 07:11 From: Jon Page Subject: Restringing prep en masse I have been uniform utilizing string curvature orientation since the late '70's. I'll remove enough wire fro the anticipated length. Index the hitch with my fingers with the open end beyond the tuning pin. Cut the other segment against that length. Then, with the coil perpendicular to the plate, I'll make the bend around the hitch. This was the result of wanting to cut the wire with the same tension so asa to get consistent beckets. I started with using four fingers as a gage but now use the Becket Tool (in the archives). Also, John McDonald, RPT, RIP pointed out that it might be a good idea to lay the wire as it comes off the spool in the factory. So the curvature is in the upwards direction. ------------------------------------------- Regards, Jon Page

Good observations. One thing I've found does absolutely make an audible
difference in the immediate attack is making sure the strings are pulled
in a tight bend around the speaking length bridge pins with the
restringing. It eliminates a slight "yow" distortion at hammer contact
and sounds significantly cleaner as the tuned unison aurally settles in
faster.
Ron N


Original Message------

Some good questions David. Let me just say 2 things. First, I DO use a State-mate (very carefully. By the book. Don't OVER-DO IT!! Be careful--any other way I can say it?) with VERY good results. Consistently really good results. HOWEVER,
One of my first RE-stringings was on a Steinway, old Model A scale. It was for a private school, and although I had been doing re-strings for another Tech for several years, I did not even have a strate mate at the time and was in a huge time crunch--don't ask. Anyway, it turned out to be one of my better RE-stringings. I just touched up the string leveling and basically just "went with it" allowing the strings to form their own shape around the Vee bar, etc. (Perhaps this is what is trying to be said)
So here was my "take away":
It's better, (if one does not have really good tools, and really good technique),
To not "jack around", bend around, lift, twist, etc etc at will or experimentally and the like. Be better off to just let the strings form their natural curve, fix any damper issues, buzzes that may POSSIBLY happen one at a time by individual lifting. But being careful & conscientious.
Hope this helps!!!

-------------------------------------------
Kevin Fortenberry
Registered Piano Technician
Lubbock TX
806-778-3962
-------------------------------------------

Agree with Ron. Example: after re-stringing, new agraffes, bridge pins etc one of our best St Ds at the time in '09, used the Strate Mate to do what Ron is describing. Noticed the instructions on the tool actually says, "now...doesn't that sound more FOCUSED!?"
Then when our top piano professor Bill Westney listened to it in order to get our heads together on voicing, etc--the VERY first thing out if his mouth was,
"Wow, it definitely sounds more FOCUSED now," I PROMISE I never said that word, nor implied it in any way. Just sayin...
Kevin

-------------------------------------------
Kevin Fortenberry
Registered Piano Technician
Lubbock TX
806-778-3962
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 5/20/2015 4:19:53 PM
From: rnossaman@cox.net
Subject: RE:Restringing prep en masse

Good observations. One thing I've found does absolutely make an audible
difference in the immediate attack is making sure the strings are pulled
in a tight bend around the speaking length bridge pins with the
restringing. It eliminates a slight "yow" distortion at hammer contact
and sounds significantly cleaner as the tuned unison aurally settles in
faster.
Ron N

> Agree with Ron. Example: after re-stringing, new agraffes, bridge
> pins etc one of our best St Ds at the time in '09, used the Strate
> Mate to do what Ron is describing.

Hold it, hold it, concept alert! No Strate Mate involved. A string hook
or shop made tool levering off the BRIDGE PIN directly pries the string
into a tighter curve around the pin. The leverage is applied right next
to the bridge pin. The rest of the string, and the front terminations
are unaffected by this process.
Ron N


Original Message------

Agree with Ron. Example: after re-stringing, new agraffes, bridge pins etc one of our best St Ds at the time in '09, used the Strate Mate to do what Ron is describing. Noticed the instructions on the tool actually says, "now...doesn't that sound more FOCUSED!?"
Then when our top piano professor Bill Westney listened to it in order to get our heads together on voicing, etc--the VERY first thing out if his mouth was,
"Wow, it definitely sounds more FOCUSED now," I PROMISE I never said that word, nor implied it in any way. Just sayin...
Kevin

-------------------------------------------
Kevin Fortenberry
Registered Piano Technician
Lubbock TX
806-778-3962
-------------------------------------------

I think Roger Gable will have his new tool at the Denver convention. Sits on the bridge pin with a tab to "encourage" the string around the pin.

-------------------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
608-518-2441
928-899-7292
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 5/20/2015 5:23:57 PM
From: rnossaman@cox.net
Subject: RE:Restringing prep en masse

> Agree with Ron. Example: after re-stringing, new agraffes, bridge
> pins etc one of our best St Ds at the time in '09, used the Strate
> Mate to do what Ron is describing.

Hold it, hold it, concept alert! No Strate Mate involved. A string hook
or shop made tool levering off the BRIDGE PIN directly pries the string
into a tighter curve around the pin. The leverage is applied right next
to the bridge pin. The rest of the string, and the front terminations
are unaffected by this process.
Ron N

Here's mine. An old broken key with a paddle welded (badly) on to the
side and shaped with a file. Quick and dirty, but it worked so well I
never made a pretty version.
Ron N


Original Message------

I think Roger Gable will have his new tool at the Denver convention. Sits on the bridge pin with a tab to "encourage" the string around the pin.

-------------------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
608-518-2441
928-899-7292
-------------------------------------------

Moondog (Roger) will be there. Worth the money.

-------------------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
608-518-2441
928-899-7292
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 5/20/2015 11:20:10 PM
From: rnossaman@cox.net
Subject: RE:Restringing prep en masse

Here's mine. An old broken key with a paddle welded (badly) on to the
side and shaped with a file. Quick and dirty, but it worked so well I
never made a pretty version.
Ron N

His tilter sure is a dandy.
Ron N


Original Message------

Moondog (Roger) will be there. Worth the money.

-------------------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
608-518-2441
928-899-7292
-------------------------------------------

Oops, I just realized Ron, that you were referring to the strings at the bridge pins. Oh well, agree on this too-I'll hugs now.
-------------------------------------------
Kevin Fortenberry
Registered Piano Technician
Lubbock TX
806-778-3962
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 5/20/2015 4:19:53 PM
From: rnossaman@cox.net
Subject: RE:Restringing prep en masse

Good observations. One thing I've found does absolutely make an audible
difference in the immediate attack is making sure the strings are pulled
in a tight bend around the speaking length bridge pins with the
restringing. It eliminates a slight "yow" distortion at hammer contact
and sounds significantly cleaner as the tuned unison aurally settles in
faster.
Ron N

*HUSH*. Darn I guess I do need to turn off auto-correct!! 😁😁😁

-------------------------------------------
Kevin Fortenberry
Registered Piano Technician
Lubbock TX
806-778-3962
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 5/20/2015 4:31:19 PM
From: kevin.fortenberry@ttu.edu
Subject: RE:Restringing prep en masse


Oops, I just realized Ron, that you were referring to the strings at the bridge pins. Oh well, agree on this too-I'll hugs now.
-------------------------------------------
Kevin Fortenberry
Registered Piano Technician
Lubbock TX
806-778-3962
-------------------------------------------

Woops, I guess it's covered twice now.
Ron N


Original Message------


Oops, I just realized Ron, that you were referring to the strings at the bridge pins. Oh well, agree on this too-I'll hugs now.
-------------------------------------------
Kevin Fortenberry
Registered Piano Technician
Lubbock TX
806-778-3962
-------------------------------------------

<One thing I've found does absolutely make an audible
difference in the immediate attack is making sure the strings are pulled
in a tight bend around the speaking length bridge pins with the
restringing

I played with this...same piano I referred to yesterday. I completely left those strings to their own devices, trying to install them with the natural curve in a consistent orientation. Didn't touch the strings bridge side or capo side in the problematic 1st capo section. Though I'm proceeding with caution and following up carefully at the 3 month tunings, I see nothing lost by leaving them be. The stability of this new stringing, is by the way excellent, so I'm not seeing other un-expetected collateral damage...just a real nice clean treble. I don't suggest the lack of string shaping is causing the stability...as I know other things regarding the front segment, epoxy lam bridge cap and improved pinning procedures are helping here...just that I don't see the lack of shaping as a negative.

Sometimes I see that various string bend shaping  exercises produce an immediate change, sometimes for the better, and sometimes not. But, damn...tune the note, wait a little, and it has returned to its previous tonal signature.  

As I say I'm proceeding with extreme caution,  but so far, I'm pleased with the "leave'm be" approach.    

-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

I'm going to try to persist, just a bit, mainly because Kevin said they were good questions.

- Is there a 'natural' curvature of wire that asserts itself once a piano is strung?  
Is it being asserted that the 'natural' (production generated) curvature remains in the wire after it is brought to tension?  By this, I mean specifically within the span of the speaking length, not at the terminations.  I am still assuming that there would be some stiffness-related deflection, at the front termination at least, (though Ron's methodology seems to preemptively deal with that at the bridge pin), even if the wire had been 'pre-straightened'.  The question is

- Is there such a thing as 'naturally occurring string level'?
Jim Ialeggio (had to change font to show that first letter was actually an I, not l ) and maybe a one or two others have suggested that they have been observing (and attempting to accommodate) the Nat-curve for some time.  Jim's latest post describes (I think) foregoing the now-common techniques of 'fixing' the wire bends at the front and rear terminations (not only of speaking length but all segments). Question becomes whether there is verifiable difference in tone or stability that can be attributed specifically to the elimination of those bends.    

- Is the traditional string leveling, done after piano is strung, a product of inconsistent observation of 'natural wire curvature'?
We level strings to remove that front stiffness-related bend (or the N-Curve), or we're trying to compensate for anomalies in the agraffe or capo bar.  If severe enough, we end up putting an upward kink (hopefully slight) in wire, beyond where simply removing either stiffness bend or NCurve effect would have it.  Do we think that such a 'kink' has a deleterious effect?  I believe Ron N has, in the recent past, opined that it does not.   

- Is it accepted fact that a twist in the length of wire will cause 'false beats'?  How severe would such twist have to be?
This is something that even I can experiment with, and will.
-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2015 10:03
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Restringing prep en masse

I'm not sure I entirely understand your method, but perhaps it will become clearer to me after any further discussion,  Meanwhile, I'd like to understand if the various assumptions about wire characteristics and false beats, thus far expressed, represent an unchallenged consensus. 

Bradley Snook says:
a naturally occurring string level to which the hammer can then be fitted = an overall reduction in the appearance of false-beats (i.e., less twist; less levelling).

- Is there a 'natural' curvature of wire that asserts itself once a piano is strung?  
- Is there such a thing as 'naturally occurring string level'?
- Is the traditional string leveling, done after piano is strung, a product of inconsistent observation of 'natural wire curvature'?
- Is it accepted fact that a twist in the length of wire will cause 'false beats'?  How severe would such twist have to be?

-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2015 07:11
From: Jon Page
Subject: Restringing prep en masse

I have been uniform utilizing string curvature orientation since the late '70's. I'll remove enough wire fro the anticipated length. Index the hitch with my fingers with the open end beyond the tuning pin. Cut the other segment against that length. Then, with the coil perpendicular to the plate, I'll make the bend around the hitch. This was the result of wanting to cut the wire with the same tension so asa to get consistent beckets. I started with using four fingers as a gage but now use the Becket Tool (in the archives). Also, John McDonald, RPT, RIP pointed out that it might be a good idea to lay the wire as it comes off the spool in the factory. So the curvature is in the upwards direction.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

> I believe Ron N has, in the recent past, opined that it does not.

I didn't opine any such thing. Academics who don't actually do anything
opine, with plenty of escape phrasing. I said flat out that a kink in a
wire isn't typically audible. I have no doubt that someone can, and
likely will, tie a snarl the size of a walnut in some speaking length
and claim AHA, that's clearly audible, so he's WRONG WRONG WRONG! But
nearly all of the things people wring their hands about over installing
strings is over worried and under experienced.

As to strings retaining curve over time, anyone who has strung a piano,
or even replaced a string will tell you that the string removed relaxed
into a curve. The very property that prevents a piano string from
stretching over time also prevents it from straightening.

Charles Faulk sells a nice little slotted lever for leveling strings by
kinking them. He hasn't yet been lynched for selling a tool that
introduces noises into strings by kinking, because kinking strings
doesn't introduce noise. I've tried very hard to make noises by kinking
strings when I'm tearing a piano down. You know, to learn something
real? You know? I've made some lovely kinks approximating anything
observed in field butchery, but none of them had anything to say.

But if you cross your eyes, they'll stick like that. Really, I heard that.

Ron N


Original Message------

I'm going to try to persist, just a bit, mainly because Kevin said they were good questions.

- Is there a 'natural' curvature of wire that asserts itself once a piano is strung?  
Is it being asserted that the 'natural' (production generated) curvature remains in the wire after it is brought to tension?  By this, I mean specifically within the span of the speaking length, not at the terminations.  I am still assuming that there would be some stiffness-related deflection, at the front termination at least, (though Ron's methodology seems to preemptively deal with that at the bridge pin), even if the wire had been 'pre-straightened'.  The question is

- Is there such a thing as 'naturally occurring string level'?
Jim Ialeggio (had to change font to show that first letter was actually an I, not l ) and maybe a one or two others have suggested that they have been observing (and attempting to accommodate) the Nat-curve for some time.  Jim's latest post describes (I think) foregoing the now-common techniques of 'fixing' the wire bends at the front and rear terminations (not only of speaking length but all segments). Question becomes whether there is verifiable difference in tone or stability that can be attributed specifically to the elimination of those bends.    

- Is the traditional string leveling, done after piano is strung, a product of inconsistent observation of 'natural wire curvature'?
We level strings to remove that front stiffness-related bend (or the N-Curve), or we're trying to compensate for anomalies in the agraffe or capo bar.  If severe enough, we end up putting an upward kink (hopefully slight) in wire, beyond where simply removing either stiffness bend or NCurve effect would have it.  Do we think that such a 'kink' has a deleterious effect?  I believe Ron N has, in the recent past, opined that it does not.   

- Is it accepted fact that a twist in the length of wire will cause 'false beats'?  How severe would such twist have to be?
This is something that even I can experiment with, and will.
-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2015 10:03
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Restringing prep en masse

I'm not sure I entirely understand your method, but perhaps it will become clearer to me after any further discussion,  Meanwhile, I'd like to understand if the various assumptions about wire characteristics and false beats, thus far expressed, represent an unchallenged consensus. 

Bradley Snook says:
a naturally occurring string level to which the hammer can then be fitted = an overall reduction in the appearance of false-beats (i.e., less twist; less levelling).

- Is there a 'natural' curvature of wire that asserts itself once a piano is strung?  
- Is there such a thing as 'naturally occurring string level'?
- Is the traditional string leveling, done after piano is strung, a product of inconsistent observation of 'natural wire curvature'?
- Is it accepted fact that a twist in the length of wire will cause 'false beats'?  How severe would such twist have to be?

-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2015 07:11
From: Jon Page
Subject: Restringing prep en masse

I have been uniform utilizing string curvature orientation since the late '70's. I'll remove enough wire fro the anticipated length. Index the hitch with my fingers with the open end beyond the tuning pin. Cut the other segment against that length. Then, with the coil perpendicular to the plate, I'll make the bend around the hitch. This was the result of wanting to cut the wire with the same tension so asa to get consistent beckets. I started with using four fingers as a gage but now use the Becket Tool (in the archives). Also, John McDonald, RPT, RIP pointed out that it might be a good idea to lay the wire as it comes off the spool in the factory. So the curvature is in the upwards direction.

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Regards,

Jon Page

Well, either Memorial weekend put a damper on this thread, or Ron's post did.  I'll assume the former.
It took me a while to look it up, but I regret to report that I could find absolutely NO definition of the word OPINE that conveyed the derisive connotations (Academics indeed!).  It merely means that Ron opined, flat out that a kink in the wire is not audible.  Instead of trashing me for using a legitimate word from the dictionary, he should have directed his creative attention at the on-going discussion:

May 18, 2015 3:07 PM
Bradley Snook 
There are multiple sources of false-beat-like anomalies that can make an in situ appearance: aggressively whacking the speaking-length side of the string, at an angle towards the bridgepin+wood (i.e., an apparent attempt to "seat-the-string" or "sharpen-the-bend"), seems to be the worst cause; overaggressive string levelling can cause false-beats [BTW, overweight hammers can produce similar wire deformations--which worsens the metallic string buzzing sounds--and produces similar false-beat results]; but, the notable source of false-beats relevant to this post, is unintentional installation of twist in the wire (i.e., which naturally takes place during the installation, when specific attention to detail is not applied during the process).

If you've ever wondered why so much string levelling is sometimes necessary, then consider the consequences of allowing the natural curvature of the wire to radically differ for every string, +small the unintentionally installed twists, that then all change the orientation around each point of contact [in a completely differently manner] (e.g., bridge pins, front termination, etc.). NOTE: this is particularly an issue with pianos using a single string wrapped around the hitchpin to produce two speaking lengths (i.e., there are many points of contact for the string curvature/orientation to change; with care and planning, it doesn't have to). Making hitchpin bends so that the wires run parallel before installation, to avoid twists during installation, will help ensure a consistent response around each point of contact = a naturally occurring string level to which the hammer can then be fitted = an overall reduction in the appearance of false-beats (i.e., less twist; less levelling).

May 20, 2015 12:44 AM
Edward McMorrow
Thanks Bradley,
I have been inspired by your postings regarding uniform string curvature orientation to do all of my recent stringing jobs that way and am pleased with the results. One was a recently, (5 years ago) restrung piano with too many false treble notes so I restrung the treble with uniform string curvature orientation and was pleased by the improved clarity.

May 20, 2015 7:11 AM
Jon Page
Also, John McDonald, RPT, RIP pointed out that it might be a good idea to lay the wire as it comes off the spool in the factory. So the curvature is in the upwards direction

There are claims of effects and causality being made here.  Maybe, after the weekend, someone could try, sans unnecessary snark, to 
respond to the questions I've raised about these assumptions.  

Have a good, safe weekend.

-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-21-2015 17:11
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Restringing prep en masse

> I believe Ron N has, in the recent past, opined that it does not.

I didn't opine any such thing. Academics who don't actually do anything
opine, with plenty of escape phrasing. I said flat out that a kink in a
wire isn't typically audible. I have no doubt that someone can, and
likely will, tie a snarl the size of a walnut in some speaking length
and claim AHA, that's clearly audible, so he's WRONG WRONG WRONG! But
nearly all of the things people wring their hands about over installing
strings is over worried and under experienced.

As to strings retaining curve over time, anyone who has strung a piano,
or even replaced a string will tell you that the string removed relaxed
into a curve. The very property that prevents a piano string from
stretching over time also prevents it from straightening.

Charles Faulk sells a nice little slotted lever for leveling strings by
kinking them. He hasn't yet been lynched for selling a tool that
introduces noises into strings by kinking, because kinking strings
doesn't introduce noise. I've tried very hard to make noises by kinking
strings when I'm tearing a piano down. You know, to learn something
real? You know? I've made some lovely kinks approximating anything
observed in field butchery, but none of them had anything to say.

But if you cross your eyes, they'll stick like that. Really, I heard that.

Ron N

Well, either Memorial weekend put a damper on this thread, or Ron's post did.  I'll assume the former.
It took me a while to look it up, but I regret to report that I could find absolutely NO definition of the word OPINE that conveyed the derisive connotations (Academics indeed!).  It merely means that Ron opined, flat out that a kink in the wire is not audible.  Instead of trashing me for using a legitimate word from the dictionary, he should have directed his creative attention at the on-going discussion:

May 18, 2015 3:07 PM
Bradley Snook 
There are multiple sources of false-beat-like anomalies that can make an in situ appearance: aggressively whacking the speaking-length side of the string, at an angle towards the bridgepin+wood (i.e., an apparent attempt to "seat-the-string" or "sharpen-the-bend"), seems to be the worst cause; overaggressive string levelling can cause false-beats [BTW, overweight hammers can produce similar wire deformations--which worsens the metallic string buzzing sounds--and produces similar false-beat results]; but, the notable source of false-beats relevant to this post, is unintentional installation of twist in the wire (i.e., which naturally takes place during the installation, when specific attention to detail is not applied during the process).

If you've ever wondered why so much string levelling is sometimes necessary, then consider the consequences of allowing the natural curvature of the wire to radically differ for every string, +small the unintentionally installed twists, that then all change the orientation around each point of contact [in a completely differently manner] (e.g., bridge pins, front termination, etc.). NOTE: this is particularly an issue with pianos using a single string wrapped around the hitchpin to produce two speaking lengths (i.e., there are many points of contact for the string curvature/orientation to change; with care and planning, it doesn't have to). Making hitchpin bends so that the wires run parallel before installation, to avoid twists during installation, will help ensure a consistent response around each point of contact = a naturally occurring string level to which the hammer can then be fitted = an overall reduction in the appearance of false-beats (i.e., less twist; less levelling).

May 20, 2015 12:44 AM
Edward McMorrow
Thanks Bradley,
I have been inspired by your postings regarding uniform string curvature orientation to do all of my recent stringing jobs that way and am pleased with the results. One was a recently, (5 years ago) restrung piano with too many false treble notes so I restrung the treble with uniform string curvature orientation and was pleased by the improved clarity.

May 20, 2015 7:11 AM
Jon Page
Also, John McDonald, RPT, RIP pointed out that it might be a good idea to lay the wire as it comes off the spool in the factory. So the curvature is in the upwards direction

There are claims of effects and causality being made here.  Maybe, after the weekend, someone could try, sans unnecessary snark, to 
respond to the questions I've raised about these assumptions.  The issue of strings "retaining curve, over time" was not one of them.

Have a good, safe weekend.

-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-21-2015 17:11
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Restringing prep en masse

> I believe Ron N has, in the recent past, opined that it does not.

I didn't opine any such thing. Academics who don't actually do anything
opine, with plenty of escape phrasing. I said flat out that a kink in a
wire isn't typically audible. I have no doubt that someone can, and
likely will, tie a snarl the size of a walnut in some speaking length
and claim AHA, that's clearly audible, so he's WRONG WRONG WRONG! But
nearly all of the things people wring their hands about over installing
strings is over worried and under experienced.

As to strings retaining curve over time, anyone who has strung a piano,
or even replaced a string will tell you that the string removed relaxed
into a curve. The very property that prevents a piano string from
stretching over time also prevents it from straightening.

Charles Faulk sells a nice little slotted lever for leveling strings by
kinking them. He hasn't yet been lynched for selling a tool that
introduces noises into strings by kinking, because kinking strings
doesn't introduce noise. I've tried very hard to make noises by kinking
strings when I'm tearing a piano down. You know, to learn something
real? You know? I've made some lovely kinks approximating anything
observed in field butchery, but none of them had anything to say.

But if you cross your eyes, they'll stick like that. Really, I heard that.

Ron N

Ed, I am happy to read that you are trying uniform string curvature orientation in your stringing! I would love to know what kind of observations you've made thus far. In particular, I'm very curious as to what orientation you [and the others that have experience controlling string orientation] think might be best (i.e., curve upwards or downwards) and why.

One of my principal precepts of piano technology comes from bioethics: primum non nocere. Regardless of any benefit to the sound, I string with a uniform string curvature orientation because this causes no harm; purposefully allowing twists to be strung into the piano adds unnecessary variation into the system which is completely avoidable. Once one is used to working with a uniform string curvature orientation, it doesn't take any longer to do--in fact, I would argue that it is faster, as the wire is easier to control (i.e., especially when replacing a broken string).
-------------------------------------------
Bradley Snook
Wien
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2015 00:44
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Restringing prep en masse

Thanks Bradley,
I have been inspired by your postings regarding uniform string curvature orientation to do all of my recent stringing jobs that way and am pleased with the results. One was a recently, (5 years ago) restrung piano with too many false treble notes so I restrung the treble with uniform string curvature orientation and was pleased by the improved clarity.

I too deplore beating the strings into the bridge pins and wood. I can't for the life of me understand why this technique has remained in vogue with some techs.

-------------------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
-------------------------------------------

I have recently discovered these anti-corrosion bags at Lee Valley tools:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=58755&cat=1,43326

Haven't ordered any yet, but wonder about your thoughts.

-------------------------------------------
Cheryl Marting
Southern Illiinois University, Edwardsville
Edwardsville, IL
618-650-3573
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-18-2015 15:06
From: Bradley Snook
Subject: Restringing prep en masse

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: CAUT and Pianotech .
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In an institution setting, individual string replacement can be problematic in terms of the excessive/unnecessary amount of weight carried around (i.e., one rarely knows ahead of time what string sizes will be needed--especially, when a string replacement request is followed by rounds to check for the others out there).

At LSU, my solution to this problem was to have assistants pre-cut, clean/polish, and store the wires in heavy-duty square plastic bags (i.e., @c.10 strings). Each bag had printed labels to identify content--they were re-used/re-filled when empty. Small desiccants were used to [theoretically] help control moisture and maintain the string quality (i.e., it worked, as far as we could tell; it may, or may not, have been necessary). The small bags of strings were grouped into larger bag groupings--for quick inventory control and planning purposes--then stored/filed in the bottom of a filing cabinet for convenient access to all things strings. 

A small collection of necessary string sizes were bagged together in one ready-to-go stringing bag (i.e., 1-2 bags [of c.10 each] of the most needed string size replacements + a few individual strings in the extended ranges). This made for an extremely light-weight, compact/flat, collection of replacement strings that could easily in tote (e.g., it is also great for travel...and/or for leaving in the car for emergencies). Also at the ready: a dedicated collection of the necessary restringing tools--which were off-limits for all other purposes. String replacement was a simple matter of grabbing two bags and going to the piano (i.e., nothing to search for; nothing to think through).

Having everything organised, with the strings [roughly] pre-cut to length and pre-cleaned/polished, was a huge time-saver when it came to individual string replacement. Also, it should be noted: the process of preparing the strings en masse is more time efficient than doing the work individually at the piano (i.e., with the extra tooling pickups-and-putdowns involved).

I still like and recommend the above method (i.e., for its compact and light size), but I have modified my preparation en masse to also include: 1.the hitchpin bend and 2.storing the strings in straight tubes. 

There are multiple sources of false-beat-like anomalies that can make an in situ appearance: aggressively whacking the speaking-length side of the string, at an angle towards the bridgepin+wood (i.e., an apparent attempt to "seat-the-string" or "sharpen-the-bend"), seems to be the worst cause; overaggressive string levelling can cause false-beats [BTW, overweight hammers can produce similar wire deformations--which worsens the metallic string buzzing sounds--and produces similar false-beat results]; but, the notable source of false-beats relevant to this post, is unintentional installation of twist in the wire (i.e., which naturally takes place during the installation, when specific attention to detail is not applied during the process).

If you've ever wondered why so much string levelling is sometimes necessary, then consider the consequences of allowing the natural curvature of the wire to radically differ for every string, +small the unintentionally installed twists, that then all change the orientation around each point of contact [in a completely differently manner] (e.g., bridge pins, front termination, etc.). NOTE: this is particularly an issue with pianos using a single string wrapped around the hitchpin to produce two speaking lengths (i.e., there are many points of contact for the string curvature/orientation to change; with care and planning, it doesn't have to). Making hitchpin bends so that the wires run parallel before installation, to avoid twists during installation, will help ensure a consistent response around each point of contact = a naturally occurring string level to which the hammer can then be fitted = an overall reduction in the appearance of false-beats (i.e., less twist; less levelling).
-------------------------------------------
Bradley Snook
Wien
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