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Peter Serkin Temperament

Jim Moy

Jim Moy04-05-2014 01:03

  • 1.  Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-09-2014 16:47
      |   view attached
    This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: Concert Level Regulation and Preparation and CAUT .
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    I am preparing for Peter Serkin later this month. I received the attached document to guide me in executing the temperament he prefers. I have yet to learn who prepared this document. I will have little or no time to correct the tuning if Mr. Serkin is dissatisfied. So I am doing my homework now. 

    If anyone has prepared for him recently and has some tips I would warmly appreciate your guidance.

    Thank you.

    -------------------------------------------
    Ted Kidwell, RPT
    California State University, Sacramento
    Capistrano Hall, rm. 153
    6000 J Street
    Sacramento, CA 95819-6015
    916.278.6737
    -------------------------------------------

    Attachment(s)



  • 2.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-09-2014 19:55
    Hi Ted,
    There was a thread on this issue five years ago, here in the archives. I haven't worked for him, myself, but I would tend to use the offsets based on C=0 for the simple reasons that you will change pitch a little less, so it will be less of a stability issue either getting it there or restoring ET. I'm glad to see that he is now labeling it 1/8 comma. There was some confusion in the earlier thread, as he was calling it 1/7 and providing figures that coincided with 1/8. I have to say that the bearing instructions for an aural tuning are rather confusing, and much of it makes no sense to me. 

    The offset figures for maybe four of the notes are changed from the ones Ed Sutton and Don McKechnie reported were provided to them. I guess that is what is meant by the label "Modified Version . . ." I am guessing he changed it from an actual 1/8 comma mean tone to something approaching a 1/8 comma "well temperament" (IOW not following the mean tone pattern to the end, but instead filling in with pure or at least less narrow fifths, with the "wolf" fifth EbG# made just a bit over a beat wide, considerably less wide than the mean tone pattern would have produced). But it is puzzling: for instance, the BE 4th/5th shouldn't be pure under any scenario I can imagine, but that is how he labels it.

    I wouldn't worry overly much about it, and simply use the offsets.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 3.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2014 12:07
      |   view attached
    Ted and All,

    FYI, attached are the instructions I received from Tim Farley in 09 when Peter visited IC. This 1/8 comma temperament is an interesting twist on the 1/7. Give it a try and hopefully you will have the time to tweak as necessary. Peter is very easy to work with and he will be thrilled that you took the time to put the temperament on the piano.

    Don

    -------------------------------------------
    [Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
    [Piano Technician]
    [Ithaca College]
    [dmckech@ithaca.edu]
    [Shop 607.274.3908]
    [Home 607.277.7112]
    [http://staff.ithaca.edu/dmckech/]

    -------------------------------------------






    Attachment(s)



  • 4.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2014 12:40
    Also an article in the February 2010 PTJ by Peter Serkin. The offsets presented in that article match those in the discussion that Fred referenced, where the offsets start with F=+2.9. These are different than the PDF that was posted by Don McKechnie, F=+4.5.



  • 5.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2014 14:15
    I believe that difference in the F offset number Jim Moy has noticed has to do with whether C or A is zeroed. That is, there is a separate series of offsets for each scenario, each of which produces the same tuning, just at a slightly different pitch: different by 1.6¢, not noticeable for almost all purposes, certainly not for a solo piano performance.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 6.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Posted 02-10-2014 15:28
    The difference between the F & C zero versions is 2.2 cents.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 7.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2014 17:19
    My post in response to Jim Moy was hasty and incorrect. The difference between what Don M posted and the others is because what Don posted is 1/7 comma, and the others are 1/8 comma. Most of what I have seen written here and there over the years about the "Peter Serkin tuning" has referenced 1/7 comma. It seems apparent that the name has survived in some contexts, but the tuning has been revised, first to 1/8 comma MT, then to a kind of 1/8 comma modified mean tone. That accounts for the discrepancies.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 8.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-11-2014 09:24
    All,

    I look forward to trying this new, 1/8, version some time and compare it to the 1/7. When Peter performed here the first time it was a solo recital. I clearly remember that I did not like color produced in the Beethoven sonata he played. But, the Messiaen piece was very nice. The second time he played here it was with Tashi and I was surprised at how well the piano blended with the group in the Messiaen "Quartet For The End of Time." I wonder how Messiaen would have felt if heard the different tuning with this piece? I'm guessing the famous Tashi recording had the piano at ET. I have to give it another listen!

    Don

    -------------------------------------------
    [Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
    [Piano Technician]
    [Ithaca College]
    [dmckech@ithaca.edu]
    [Shop 607.274.3908]
    [Home 607.277.7112]
    [http://staff.ithaca.edu/dmckech/]

    -------------------------------------------








  • 9.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-11-2014 16:35
    Thank you all for sharing your experiences. If I learn anything interesting in this process I will be sure to share it with the list.

    -------------------------------------------
    Ted Kidwell, RPT
    California State University, Sacramento
    Capistrano Hall, rm. 153
    6000 J Street
    Sacramento, CA 95819-6015
    916.278.6737
    -------------------------------------------








  • 10.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2014 15:35
    Just to give some context to this whole thing, it originated with TIm Farley, who has a music store in Madison, Farley's House of Pianos. Tim tunes all his pianos to a mild mean tone 1/7 or 1/8 comma), and has for many years. He has also taught classes on the subject at a few conventions. He proselytizes his tuning style. Some like it, some don't - I have heard a few stories, and will relate one I heard directly. 

    I recently had a conversation with my cousin, Hans Sturm (bass player and professor, who lived in Madison for several years), where he told me about playing at "this store in Madison" where the owner had a quirky tuning. His jazz combo was playing there, and they were having a lot of trouble being in tune with the piano, so they asked if the piano could be switched to ET instead. The owner refused. I mentioned the name Farley, and he said "Yep, that was the name." This story is not intended to run down Tim Farley, but rather to show how passionate he is about his tuning.

    Peter Serkin apparently met Tim Farley at some point, in some context, and "was converted" (or you could say he just liked that sound, however you want to put it). Maybe Peter was in Madison and visited the store, tried out some pianos - that is what I would guess happened. And Tim was there and talked to him. From then on, Peter has asked that the pianos he performs on be tuned in this way.

    So what we are dealing with here is that Peter Serkin wants the piano tuned the way Tim Farley did it, and following the instructions given is really the only way to do that. The latest iteration, posted by Ted Kidwell, is what I would call an improvement on the earlier instructions: rather than straight mean tone, with a wolf fifth 3 - 4 beats wide and four M3s that suffer from the extra width generated by that wolf 5th, he has moderated the tuning so it is more circular, and the wolf should be hardly noticeable (wide rather than narrow, but beating about the same as most of the other 5ths), As a result, the widest M3s have been moderated quite a bit as well. It is a much more circular temperament, without the jolts involved in mean tone. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 11.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Member
    Posted 04-09-2014 16:43
      |   view attached

    In 2009, I was approached by Ken Orgel (RPT Chicago) with a request to chart the Serkin tuning as developed by Tim Farley. I attach the chart, and herewith append the discussion at that time:

    ...here is the email before his Serkin concert tuning:
    ======
    Jason,
    I am tuning for Peter Serkin this Sunday in Chicago. I was sent the attached file - I just found out it was drawn by Tim Farley. 
    [this is the same drawing that was reproduced earlier in this thread] 
    I just got off the phone with Bill Bremmer in Wisconsin.  Bill explained to me what the 2 charts on the lower left of the page are all about.  Apparently the tuning that I am to do for Serkin is basically a 1/8th comma meantone with a pure fifth (almost) between E and B. Bill suggested this pure fifth is meant to offset the wolf tone between G# and Eb.
    In any case Bill mentioned you are well known for having created a way to generate tuning charts.  Might you have a way to show this particular tuning? and a chart of the equal temperament tuning we do today for comparison?
    I plan on starting with the tuning that is already on the piano he will be using (It is already very stable at A 442) I'll start with the A 442 and use an SAT 2 Accutuner to add and subtract the offsets indicated to the remainder of the temperament notes. Then tune the rest of the pianos by octaves
    Thanks Jason - if you are short of time, please don't even bother with this, it is not an emergency.
    Thanks for taking the time to look at this.
    Ken
    Ken Orgel RPT Chicago
    =======
    and after the concert...
    =======
    Jason,
    I apologize for taking so long to write back.  The concert went well.  Peter Serkin thanked me for the tuning and said it was just what he wanted.  I must thank you however because I wound up referring your chart at the the last minute and it got me out of a jam.
     I used the SAT for the tuning a couple of hours before Serkin showed up to rehearse.  I was bummed out after I tuned the F to F temperament notes because nothing sounded very good.  I redid everything 2 or 3 times then finally zeroed in on the beat rate of the thirds from your chart.  Because my SAT skills are weak I had mistakenly read 2 notes B and Bb  on octave 3 instead of octave 5 where all the other notes had been read.  When I corrected the mistake everything sounded much better. Whew.
    Your chart hepled me understand the principle behind the tuning better, but sure came in handy when I got into trouble.
    Thanks so much for devising the program that can generate the chart, and for allowing me to use it for the concert. I hope I can return the favor in some way at some time.
    Stay well, 
    ========

    -------------------------------------------
    Jason Kanter
    Bellevue WA
    425-830-1561
    -------------------------------------------








  • 12.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-14-2014 17:48
    For anyone who might be interested in trying to understand what is behind the numbers and the nomenclature involved in describing the "Serkin Temperament," I will make a stab at de-mystification.

    First, there is the notion of a "fractional comma," in this case "1/8 comma." The comma referred to is the syntonic comma, the difference between a stack of four just fifths and a just major third: tune the just 5ths CG, GD, DA, AE and you end up with a CE "Pythagorean third," a good bit wider than an ET third. Tune E directly to C to make a just third (beatless) and E will be a good bit lower. The difference between the two placements of E is the syntonic comma: very close to 21.5 cents, or the arithmetical ratio of 81:80.

    When we talk about 1/8 comma, we mean each fifth is narrowed by 1/8 of 21.5 cents, or 2.7 cents. An ET fifth is narrowed by just under 2 cents, so a 1/8 comma fifth is about 1/3 narrower than an ET fifth, not too noticeable by itself. It beats about like an ET 4th. 

    If you tune a standard mean tone using 1/8 comma fifths, you would tune 11 of them, leaving the Eb/G# "wolf" fifth to take up the difference. Add up the total of those eleven narrow fifths: 11 x 2.7 = 29.7 cents. The total of 12 fifths in the circle has to add up to the Pythagorean comma of 23.5 cents. Hence, the Eb/G# fifth will have to be 29.7 - 23.5 cents WIDE, or 6.2 cents wide. That is pretty noticeable, and that fifth will sound out of tune when it is exposed, and when you play a chord involving it (A flat triad). Furthermore, it will make the four major thirds involving it quite wide. The other eight major thirds will be precisely the same size, a fair bit narrower than ET. The other four will be a good bit wider than ET. 

    If you want to have more of a progression of M3 sizes, you can accomplish that most easily by tuning only 8 of the fifths narrow by 1/8 comma, tuning the rest just, as in the Vallotti pattern (this is not precisely true, but close enough for most purposes). 

    The earlier "Serkin Temperament" was based on 1/7 comma, so the eleven 1/7 comma fifths would be 3.1 cents narrow, and the wolf would be 10.7 cents wide. That is getting quite edgy, wherever that wolf fifth shows up, and the four wide M3s will be that much wider. However, it would be quite difficult to perceive and control the difference between a 1/7 comma and a 1/8 comma fifth, and to do that consistently, tuning aurally. It is the difference between 1.3 times narrower than an ET fifth and 1.5 times narrower. With an ETD, this is no problem, of course. It is when you add them all up that you really hear a difference, and it is mostly apparent in the wolf.

    If you are interested in fooling around with this kind of thing, including calculating beat rates of various intervals for yourself, you can find some spreadsheets for the purpose, together with other materials, here: http://my.ptg.org/caut/resources/libraryview/?LibraryKey=a8f8135d-d76f-43b9-9486-b72523520cd9

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 13.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-15-2014 11:19

    Hi all-

    ...and thanks for the detail Fred.  If I may, this offers an opportunity to express one point regarding using numbers and tables for reproducing temperaments that always makes me uncomfortable.  On one hand, if the concert went well and everyone is happy, great. On the other, as professional tuners we owe it to ourselves to understand exactly what is the goal of any given temperament.  When it comes to ET we have very specific aural tests to rate the success or failure of exactly what was produced, independent of whether the player made a complaint or how exactly we reproduced numbers from someplace else.  It's no different with this temperament.  The goal here is to make 11 fifths exactly the same size and 8 major thirds exactly the same size, and do that at the place where the wolf (G#-Eb) beats in a 2:1 ratio with the diminished 4th (Ab-C), naturally all within a clean octave.  Since the fifths are faster and major thirds slower than in ET it's relatively more noticeable when they aren't equal size.  To do this accurately is not easy, but can be fun. And, in the end it's either spot on, or something else.  I recommend using the table or other numbers to get it close, as a template, then aurally polish it to perfection. Same as you would do tuning ET.  If that was the intent and I misunderstood, then all the better.   


    that's my 2 cents,  now have a great day~! 

    dennis. 
    -------------------------------------------
    Dennis Johnson, R.P.T.
    St. Olaf College
    Music Dept.
    Northfield, MN 55337
    sta2ned@stolaf.edu
    (507) 786-3587
    -------------------------------------------








  • 14.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-15-2014 11:34
    Thanks to Fred and Dennis for making sense of Peter Serkin's temperament.  I didn't have a clue what I should be listening to in order to know if what he wanted was accomplished.

    -------------------------------------------
    Carl Lieberman
    RPT
    Venice CA
    310-392-2771
    -------------------------------------------







  • 15.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-15-2014 13:41

    I am going to venture into the realm of opinion here. I don't really believe the ultimate goal of any tuning is to make any series of intervals any particular size. It is to please the artist and the audience. If the tuner does so that is as good as it gets. After all, we are producing a temperament- in other words, a compromise. So the concept of a "spot on" compromise is a bit of an oxymoron. That is not to suggest that knowledge of what we are doing and rigor in its execution is not of paramount importance. To that end Fred's clarification is invaluable. But ultimately, our goal is simply to make the piano sound as great as we can. After I tune, using my tuning device and all the aural skills I have acquired, I spend some time just playing and sort of fumbling around tweaking the tuning and voicing here and there as I hear it. I do this both with ET and the Serkin tuning.  The result is just something that sounds good to me. I have a very clear aesthetic for ET. I am developing one for the Serkin tuning.

     

    All the faculty and other fine pianists that have played the Serkin tuning seem to love it. None have any trouble hearing the difference. The comments I get all say close to the same thing- that the tuning seems to smooth off the rough edges of ET. No one mentions anything about different keys having different colors. Perhaps they just don't think that way having always lived with ET. And perhaps they (and I) like the tuning because it is new and different. I don't know. But I find all of this very interesting and instructive.



    -------------------------------------------
    Ted Kidwell, RPT
    California State University, Sacramento
    Capistrano Hall, rm. 153
    6000 J Street
    Sacramento, CA 95819-6015
    916.278.6737
    -------------------------------------------








  • 16.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-15-2014 14:00
    Hi Dennis,
    I had no motivation other than to try to clarify what most people find hopelessly baffling. I would point out, though, that 1/7 and 1/8 comma mean tone (and, for that matter, most of the other fractions besides 1/4) were essentially mathematical constructs, not aural realities (at least "precise" aural realities) -  until the late 20th century. They were set out in mathematical terms, in some detail, but the only way to tune them was by using a monochord: measure distances, pluck the string, transfer the pitch to your keyboard instrument. How precise is that? Not very.

    It wasn't until Owen Jorgensen created aural methods of tuning these, based on the cents calculations provided by Murray Barbour, that these temperaments obtained an aural reality - to the extent people were able to follow those instructions. And the "equal beating" instructions are actually distortions of the original theoretical designs, to make it easier to tune what is, in essence "impossible" to do aurally with any precision. So I'm not sure that you can really argue that an aural refinement is in any way superior to an electronically generated tuning, done precisely.

    Specifically with respect to these sizes of comma, they derive historically from the writings of a French theoretician by the name of Romieu (from one particular paper he presented), and Barbour says, "Romieu mentioned temperaments of 1/7, 1/8, 1/9, and 1/10 commas, but did not consider them sufficiently important to discuss." Romieu did discuss at length such fractions as 2/9, 3/10, 3/11, etc. He was purely a theoretician, writing in an academic way. There is no other source for the fractions of 1/7 and 1/8 comma that I know of, so I really think they need to be treated as a sort of late 20th century invention. With respect to the historical precedent, we are talking about a dry theoretical paper given to the French Royal Academy of Sciences in 1758, talking about a number of dry, mathematical/theoretical constructs. This is not how anyone tuned at the time.

    In this context, what do "aural refinements" mean? At least until the time that the tuning has been "given life," which it has in the persons of Tim McFarley and Peter Serkin. But note that it has evolved over the years from a pure 1/7 comma mean tone (originally) to a modified 1/8 comma mean tone. So how particular is Peter Serkin and about what? If it has evolved in this direction more or less at his request, all we can surmise from that is that the 1/7 comma wolf was probably troublesome, and so was the 1/8 comma wolf. But he does want some kind of difference of size of M3. It is very possible that another of the more elegant 20th century coloristic temperaments would please him more.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 17.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-16-2014 16:12
    When I wrote that Peter Serkin might like "another of the more elegant 20th century coloristic temperaments," that got me thinking about what exactly I might mean by that, and I got the notion of explaining how you might set up an "elegant" temperament. The Vallotti and Young concepts are certainly the most elegant from the point of view of providing an evenly graded range of M3 sizes (commonly referred to as "key color" as that is the main component - keeping in mind that the M3 affects the M6, etc.). The difference between Vallotti and Young is simply that Vallotti has narrow fifths from F to B, while Young has them from C to F# (upward around the circle of fifths). Vallotti makes more sense to me in his choice, and is far more commonly used.

    The way the Vallotti design works is ingenious: you narrow six 5ths, those on the natural keys (FC, CG, GD, DA, AE, EB), and you widen those that involve an accidental (FBb, BbEb, EbAb, AbDb, DbGb, GbB or F#B). The interplay between these changes creates an even gradation of M3 sizes from CE to C#E# (DbF). The degree of widening and narrowing used in Vallotti leads to a somewhat edgy sound, objectionable to most modern pianists. Specifically the widest M3s are too wide, and the fifths on the natural keys are too narrow.

    But a "half Vallotti" would probably be fine for almost anyone. How would you go about designing that, creating a cents offset table? I'll try to explain it in a way that can be grasped pretty easily. We need to start with the notion that the "norm" (ie, offsets of zero) means that all fifths are narrow by 2¢ (actually between 1.95 and 2¢, but let's round up). So if, for example you want to create a just fifth, you need to widen it by a total of 2¢, which you can do by raising the upper note +2¢, lowering the lower note -2¢, or some combination. Looking at it from the other perspective, if you see a table of offsets, you can compare the offsets of two notes a fifth apart and figure out the size of the fifth. +6 for the upper note and +6 for the lower means it is an ET fifth. +6 for upper and +4 for lower means it has been widened 2¢ from ET, hence it is a just fifth. +6 upper and +8 lower means it has been narrowed 2¢ from ET, so it is a total of 4¢ narrow. That is essentially a 1/6 comma fifth (rounding). Vallotti uses 1/6 comma fifths and just fifths.

    To make a "half Vallotti," we could make half as much of a change, 1¢ in either direction rather than 2¢. And we can do that by simply following the circle of 5ths. Starting on A as zero, we will want to narrow all the natural key fifths by 1¢, and widen all the fifths with accidentals by 1¢. Moving downward around the circle of fifths, D will need to be raised 1¢, hence D - +1¢. G will need to be 1¢ narrow of ET as well, so it will need to be raised 2¢, hence G - +2¢. C - +3¢, F +4¢. We need to catch the natural fifths upward from A as well, and they will change in the opposite direction, so E will be -1¢, B -2¢.

    The remaining fifths will need to be widened. We can do them all in the same direction, starting from F. So Bb will be +3, Eb +2, Ab +1, Db 0.0, Gb -1, and that completes the circle. Hence, putting them in order by half steps:
    C +3¢
    C# 0
    D +1
    D# +2
    E -1
    F +4
    F# -1
    G +2
    G# +1
    A 0
    A# +3
    B -2

    You could also do "1/3 Vallotti" if you wished, by making the difference 0.7¢ rather than 1¢, etc., etc. in the same additive way moving around the circle of fifths.

    Aurally, you can do the same kind of thing: simply make your fifths on the natural keys about 1 1/2 times narrower than ET (about 1 bps, and 4ths 1.5 bps), and make the fifths that involve accidentals a bit closer to pure but not quite. 

    Another interesting thing to do is to analyze the numbers in the chart to see how wide other intervals are, like M3s. For instance, CE: C is +3¢, E is -1¢, hence CE is 4¢ narrow of ET. So are FA and GB. C#F, F#A#, and G#C are wider than ET by 4¢. The other M3s are between those two extremes in size. 

    I hope this explanation makes some sense. It isn't all that hard to understand once you have managed to grasp the basics. I know that most people's eyes seem to glaze over when I try to explain these things, but I keep trying <G>.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 18.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Member
    Posted 04-17-2014 09:58
    Nice Fred, and probably essentially what many tuners actually would do in practice without quite all the precise thought. 

    I believe these are close to what I call Anne I, and Anne II for my own use!  Extremely useful, nobody notices its not ET except my piano sounds 'pretty' and still with color. 



    -------------------------------------------
    Anne Acker
    Anne Acker Early Keyboards
    912-704-3048
    a.acker@comcast.net

    -------------------------------------------








  • 19.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Posted 04-20-2014 16:07
    One of the problems I have with the Serkin Temperament is represented in the following youtube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7bGtR_ETJE&feature=kp&app=desktop In his recording of his own tune "Lush Life," by Billy Strayhorn, mediant is strongly represented. If one reaches the end of his own recording of this composition, he concludes the tune by singing a mediant tone that is far sharp of soi-disant equal temperament. Musicians frequently as in this example reconcile the deviation from pure thirds expanded well as contracted, as this recording not only in conclusion from tonic at the finale, but throughout, demonstrates. Not to mention, Loius Armstrong, to a lesser degree. ------------------------------------------- Benjamin Sloane Cincinnati OH 513-257-8480 -------------------------------------------


  • 20.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-21-2014 08:35
    In trying to listen to the Strayhorn recording as if simply listening to an old recording and not analyzing a temperament choice for piano and vocal, I would say, "too bad they didn't tune the piano before that gig and the singer is good but he has some pitch problems."  ;-)

    -------------------------------------------
    Gary Bruce, RPT
    Bruce Piano Service
    Edmond, OK
    405-413-TUNE
    www.brucepiano.com
    -------------------------------------------








  • 21.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Posted 04-21-2014 11:49
    I have to concur with your assessment, Gary, wholeheartedly.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv



  • 22.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-22-2014 22:24
    From one standpoint, there's no particular reason to learn about stretched M3ds from this Strayhorn Recording. Strayhorn was no singer, and his "eccentric" intonation was not formed by trained vocal studies. What there might be to learn we could get from any TIGIF karaoke singer.

    Although the utube clip does not properly identify this recording, I believe it's from the New School (NYC) solo piano concert of JUN 6, 1964, the year that he was diagnosed with esophageal cancer. Nearly three years later, leukemia had finished him. The above concert was produced by his friends, intent on not putting off any longer such a rare appearance. The fact the he should SING "Lush Life" itself, was a rare event. Of all his compositions, this was one he considered private, and was furious when Nat King Cole recorded it in 1949.

    We now resume the topic of the Peter Serkin Temperament. 

    -------------------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    -------------------------------------------








  • 23.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Posted 04-23-2014 05:40
    There is a strange tone that the PTG airs that never ceases to amaze, the treat a grown man like a schoolboy and "Voilà" instant expert air. Stranger still in that this boy has explained in no uncertain terms that the schoolmen have not impressed him so much as Billy Joel, a high school dropout who finished a quarter century later, with an essay test. Another good contemporary example is Michael Feinstein. At any rate, la critique est aisée, et l'art est difficile. Google Peter Serkin, you get an interview about Brahms first PIano Concerto. http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_22044640/rare-interview-pianist-peter-serkin-talks-about-his You Tube Peter Serkin, first video is a Brahms Quintet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjmtM4V2kEI It appears that the agents of Serkin are exploiting a pedagogical lineage through his teacher Karl Ulrich Schnabel, as a publicity stunt, son of Artur Schnabel, who studied with Theodor Leschetizky, who himself studied with Carl Czerny, carving a path decidedly not through Liszt. How much Serkin is truly on board with all this one can only guess. It is effective enough to convince a small group of tuners to tune 9 foot pianos narrower than spinets, which surely has Serkin laughing all the way to the bank and piano technicians begging for alms. It is axiomatic that Brahms frequently ridiculed these sort of distinctions, more thrust upon him than a self determined understanding, and so, in the same spirit it is possible to opaquely pretend we celebrate composers that behaved far other than we, and rave there is no context for a Strayhorn in a discussion about tuning preferred by a Brahms devotee, or that there is no larger question to be considered when discussing such things, such as, what is life? This is not Brahms we are celebrating, his Weltanschauung, his way of life. Who would Brahms if catipulted in time identify with today? Dubious that Liszt resented Brahms for his counterpoint as well. More contemporaries than rivals. For heaven sake, both composed gypsy music, Brahms in the form of Dances, Liszt, Rhapsodies; even trading Hungarian melodies. Brahms got his start as a Tavern pianist in Hamburg and a frequenter of watering holes not unlike Strayhorn. The difference is that Strayhorn was forced to compose Jazz because he was black, and probably didn't fashion himself much different than Brahms, as a composer, certainly more than Serkin himself as a performance artist. Brahms wrote about life too, which he observed, was short, in the Akademische Festouvertüre, for orchestra, a medium that if not for his race, Strayhorn would have probably exploited more than Brahms. Brahms recorded as well, on for what I can tell, out of tune pianos, as one may determine him or herself on the wax cylinder recording at the following url. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZXL3I7GPCY Wikipedia indicates Brahms described the Akademische Festouvertüre as "a very boisterous potpourri of student drinking songs à la Suppé." Brahms expresses his dedication to the academy with drinking songs. How is the performance of Brahms then so unlike anything that Strayhorn did? What is to be made of these distinctions? Since when is closing a drinking song about life singing mediant sharp a symptom of cancer, and from which expert has this observation been derived? ------------------------------------------- Benjamin Sloane Cincinnati OH 513-257-8480 -------------------------------------------


  • 24.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-15-2014 11:51
    Fred, thanks very much for taking the time to discuss this.  I've been thinking about it a lot and have a few non-technical questions.  If you use this temperment can you then only play in a limited number of key signatures?  How is this an improvement over the versatile temperment most of us have been using?  Why would he have thought that a tuning based interval relationships was inadequate?

    Robert

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    Robert Callaghan
    Reno NV
    775-287-2140
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  • 25.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-15-2014 13:22
    Hi Robert,
    This temperament is mild enough that it can be used in all keys. But it favors F#, C#, G#, Bb, Eb, so within the key signatures defined by those accidentals you will have smaller M3s. IOW the keys of Bb, F, C, G, D and A are favored, especially if you don't go too far afield. When those accidentals are used "enharmonically" (C# used as Db for instance), the M3 will be quite a bit wider (in fact, they would be called diminished 4ths: Db F would really be C# F - if you want to get into the music theory of it). But they are not so wide as to impinge too much on the ear, to sound horribly out of tune as they would with stronger versions of mean tone (1/4 to 1/6 comma). And the interpolation of a just fifth (EB I believe) also moderates things.

    According to those who use it (Peter Serkin in particular), it gives more color and sense to their music, at least for them. Read here to find it in Serkin's own words. 

    All this said, starting with a mean tone in order to achieve "key color" doesn't really make any sense to me. There are more elegant solutions. Mean tone is "bi-chromatic": it has only two "colors" or widths of M3s, m3s, 6ths and 5ths: you are either in the "home zone" or in the "away zone" without anything in between, no gradation.

    This on the assumption that "key color" has value to you, and that is a separate conversation I'd just as soon steer clear of myself. I mostly play and listen to music of the 20th and 21st century, I tend to dislike functional harmony as it developed in the 19th century, and I get all the color I want from coloristic use of chords tuned in ET. So I have "no dog in that fight" as it were. It is merely of theoretical interest to me.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 26.  RE: Peter Serkin Temperament

    Posted 03-02-2020 14:56
    Hello Fred - last July I tuned a 'D' to Serkin for Gerschwin's 'Rhapsody in Blue' Everyone was very happy with it. Even the String sections. Michael G  UK.

    ------------------------------
    Michael Gamble
    semi retired
    Brighton
    01273813612
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-04-2014 15:52

    I used the offset numbers provided on the Farley cheat sheet and my trusty SAT IV to get through this tuning. I zeroed the tuning on C since he was performing the Schumann piano quintet in Eb and I did not want the tuning centered a tritone away. I found the numbers did not give me perfect octaves so I went ahead and fudged around until the octaves were stellar. This necessitated some other changes as well to avoid wolf intervals. So I guess my tuning is a further modification of the modified 1/8 comma tuning. I guess it was not too far off. At the reception Serkin shook my hand and praised me in front of the faculty and donor types. Very gratifying. If I may return the favor, I don't know when I have heard a pianist who was a better chamber musician. He was performing with the Orion quartet and the ensemble and balance were inspiring.

     

    I have left the tuning on the piano which is one of our important performance Ds. I have had many pianists try out the tuning, sometimes switching back and forth between another D tuned in ET. Every single player has really liked the Serkin tuning- and so do I. I can't quite figure out why it works so well. It certainly fails standard aural checks such as contiguous intervals or inside/outside tests. And the keys more remote from C are certainly busier. Yet, when music is played on the piano it is warmer. Like the rough edges of ET have been smoothed somewhat without introducing anything objectionable. An important local pianist is giving a recital here later this month and has requested this tuning. So, maybe Sacramento has been infected with the Serkin virus...



    -------------------------------------------
    Ted Kidwell, RPT
    California State University, Sacramento
    Capistrano Hall, rm. 153
    6000 J Street
    Sacramento, CA 95819-6015
    916.278.6737
    -------------------------------------------








  • 28.  RE:Peter Serkin Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-05-2014 01:03
    Congrats! Nice.