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Kawai Leg Bolt

  • 1.  Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 08-21-2016 11:51

    A have a Kawai GE1 grand missing a leg bolt. It's a weird size: 1/2" X 12 X 2-3/4" long. My research shows this to be a British Whitworth size. Before I send to the U.K. for a bolt, I was wondering if anyone might have one??

    Thanks,

    Phil Jamison

    PA

    ------------------------------
    Philip Jamison
    Philip Jamison Pianos
    WEST CHESTER PA
    610-696-8449
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-21-2016 13:59

    Philip,

     

    Please call Kawai, ask for Deborah in piano parts.

     

    800-421-2177

     

    Credit cards accepted!

     

    Don Mannino

    Kawai America

     






  • 3.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 08-25-2016 13:14

    I called Kawai, and they said they do stock the 1/2 X 12 Whitworth thread bolts for the GE1 grand. The lyre bolts are longer than the leg bolts on this model. I was offered no explanation as to why a Japanese company would use a Whitworth thread. I Googled the association and came upon the JIS (Japanese Industry Standard) Japanese Screw Thread Specifications. These give more details on thread specs than I'll ever need, but it does list the  Whitworth thread, indicating that they were/are, indeed, used in Japan. Also, here is a quote from Industry in Japan (Oxford Univ. Press, 1997):

    "In Japan, the Whitworth thread was used in the navy, railways, and other private factories. Metric threads were primarily used by the army. The reason for the co-existence of different threads was simply because the Japanese Imperial Navy and railways were modeled in British technology, whereas the Japanese Imperial Army looked to Germany and France to its modernization."

    By 1927, Japan adopted two standards; a metric and a Whitworth as follows:

    1. Metric threads for automobiles and aircraft, and diameters under 9mm.

    2. Whitworth threads for all other uses

    ... and that's the rest of the story.

    Phil Jamison 

    ------------------------------
    Philip Jamison
    Philip Jamison Pianos
    WEST CHESTER PA
    610-696-8449



  • 4.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2016 16:58

    Philip,

    Thanks for your research. I'll include that information in my tilter instruction sheet.

    Roger, for President

    ------------------------------
    Roger Gable
    Gable Piano
    Everett WA
    425-252-5000



  • 5.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-26-2016 07:33

    You have my vote, Roger!!

    ------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Director of Piano Services
    School of Music
    813 Assembly St
    University of South Carolina
    Columbia, SC 29208
    pwilliams@mozart.sc.edu



  • 6.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-26-2016 12:20

    Ah I found the message, it's not posted online in sequential order!

    Philip wrote: "I called Kawai, and they said they do stock the 1/2 X 12 Whitworth thread bolts for the GE1 grand. " Philip, I don't know how you possibly got this idea from Deborah. She has no idea what a Whitworth bolt is, and she told you that.  But she does have the correct bolts to work in this GE-1, which are metric thread.

    If the standard metric bolts don't fit into the sockets, that means the threads in the sockets were damaged.  It happens all the time.  In that case, you need to order new sockets - which you were also offered when you called.

    The JIS standards you referred to were drawn up a very long time ago, which is why I can't be sure about the 60s and very early 70s pianos until I go home and take a bolt out of my piano and measure it (I'm working in New York this week).  But since the KG 'C' series started in about 1972, the leg bolts have all been metric; 12mm 1.75mm thread pitch and available in 70mm, 85mm, and 100mm lengths.

    I am posting this again in the thread so that we don't get confused technicians calling us and asking to order Whitworth leg bolts because they read online that Kawai uses them!  No, we do not.

    ------------------------------
    Don Mannino RPT
    Kawai America Corporation



  • 7.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 08-26-2016 12:41

    When I replaced the square headed metric bolts with hex heads, I bore into the lyre top to use the same size as the legs. It makes it easier with multiple break-downs. The 10 mm hex heads (3/8" hex key fits) make for easy power driving. I also installed lyre prop stick support blocks (like Baldwin) so as not to have to fiddle with screws.

    So why the change from Whitworth to Metric?

    I also carry a metric and SAE tap and die sets for cleaning up damaged threads.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 8.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 08-27-2016 07:52

    Thanks, Don, for your attention to my missing lyre bolt. This GE1 may be unique, but it definitely uses Whitworth threads. The standard metric thread for this size bolt (1.75) doesn't fit. The standard ANSI size is 13 TPI; again, doesn't fit. The Whitworth standard is 12 TPI: perfect fit. Good luck finding a 2-3/4" x 1/2-12 Whitworth bolt. I've attached some photos of the bolts with thread gauges. I think I can fix the problem, but it is a strange one!

    Phil

    ------------------------------
    Philip Jamison
    Philip Jamison Pianos
    WEST CHESTER PA
    610-696-8449



  • 9.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 08-27-2016 07:56

    Contact Samick, they use Whitworth.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 10.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-27-2016 08:52

    Phil,

     

    Get the socket from Kawai – simple solution!

     

    DM

     






  • 11.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 08-23-2016 21:53

    Seeing that Japan, like the vast majority of the world, uses the Metric system, I would think that the thread would be a metric one.  You might be able to find a fitting bolt in a decent hardware store or an auto parts place.

    ------------------------------
    Jurgen Goering



  • 12.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 08-24-2016 06:46

    I have two Kawais, a KG-2C and a KG 3 for rentals. They each use different bolts. KG-2C is 12 x 1.75 x 70 and I think the other is SAE (it's out for rental). So the only way to know what you have is to measure one of them. Any hardware store should have a thread gage.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 13.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 08-24-2016 16:33

    The KG-3 is still out on rental but I checked in my Moon Dog Grand Piano Tilter Tool Case and the bolt with attaches the tilter to the piano is 1/2" x 12 Whitworth. So it's either Metric or Whatsworse...I mean Whitworth.

    Why would any Asian manufacturer use an archaic British fastener?  it's not like there is a big demand for these after-market, it just makes it difficult to service and as far as I'm concerned, it is a discredit to the manufacturer.  Maybe they got a couple container loads cheap.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 14.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 08-24-2016 16:46
    This also begs the question, why, since this is such a very common and
    much repeated topic, newly and totally mysterious every single time it
    comes up, doesn't one of the US piano supply houses stock appropriate
    replacements? Then, instead of sending bolt hunters to hardware stores
    that will NOT have appropriate replacements, they can be sent to the
    supplier who's catalog they didn't look in before posting to the list.

    Pretty obtuse, I know, but if this many of these bolt incidents show up
    on these lists, where do the vast number of techs not trafficking these
    lists go? There does seem to be a market for replacements.
    Ron N




  • 15.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 08-24-2016 12:03

    Have you contacted Kawai? Seems it would be the obvious first place to look.

    ------------------------------
    Alan McCoy
    Spokane WA
    ahm2352@gmail.com



  • 16.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-24-2016 18:39
    Ron & Jon & all,
    I’ve known Kawai to only use M12 x 1.75. Samick is the only piano manufacturer that I know to use 1/2’' x 12 Whitworth. As Jon says the Whitworth system a dinosaur, and as Ron says, the supply houses would serve us well to stock these bolts.
     
    FYI, the metric system designation is simple to use, unlike the English fractional system which requires us to memorize or reference the pilot hole drill size for tapping. Example: A 1/4” x 20 (diameter times threads per inch) thread requires a # 7 drill bit to make your pilot hole for tapping. That # 7 drill bit defines the core size of the bolt, e.g. the diameter of the bolt at the bottom of the threads. All the various fractional sizes use pilot hole drill sizes that have no systematic reference to the bolt size. You must memorize them or have a reference sheet. The metric system requires no memorizing or reference chart. Example: M12 x 1.75. The 12 is the outside diameter (in mm) of the bolt and the 1.75 (mm) is the amount you subtract from the outer diameter (12 mm) to determine the size of the pilot drill. 12 subtract 1.75 equals 10.25. You would use a 10.25 mm drill for your pilot hole.
     
    That’s my stump speech for changing our measuring system to metric.
     
    Roger
    ------------------------------
    Roger Gable
    Gable Piano
    Everett WA
    425-252-5000



  • 17.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 08-24-2016 19:15
    Roger,
    Run for the appropriate office to make the change over, and I'll vote
    for you.

    But driving on the left is still definitely out.

    Ron N




  • 18.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-24-2016 19:46
    Ron,
    YOU'RE ON !   I'll run for office.
    as long as you don't read my emails or see my tax return.
     
    Roger



    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
    www.avast.com







  • 19.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 08-24-2016 20:26

    Then, why do I have a Kawai KG-3, c. 1971 that uses Whitworth fasteners?

    The Kawai KG-2C, c. 1978 uses metric.

    The KG-3 is my preferred rental. I would like to install hex head fasteners (like the KG-2C) to expedite moving by using a power driver because the Whitworth bolts have square heads. We do use a socket to install, I could use the power driver if I purchase a 1/2" drive adapter.

    Edit: The KG-2C had square head bolts but I replaced them with hex head to facilitate break-down.

             The KG-3 was originally sold in England (Harrods placard on the inner rim) which may have bearing on the Whitworth usage.

    I prefer the KG-3 because of the satin finish. Wiping down the hi polish KG-2 after moving to a venue is bothersome. Plus I restrung the 3 and retrofit vertical hitch pins and WNG Perimeter Fasteners. I also installed plated (slightly over-sized) bridge pins. It is a clear, clean sounding piano.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 20.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-24-2016 22:05

    No supply house would be stupid enough to provide these bolts. How many different sizes would they be and how many decades would 90% of them sit on a shelf ..

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    608-518-2441
    928-899-7292



  • 21.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 08-24-2016 22:41

    How hard would it be to tap to a standard size that's easy to get?






  • 22.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2016 01:22

    Call Kawai. My experience is yhey're really good about shipping parts with very reasonable cost.






  • 23.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 08-25-2016 00:08
    Yea, you're right, but it shouldn't need to be that way. What's
    typically missing, that isn't standard hardware store stuff, is what,
    maybe four diameter and thread types? One length, cut to size as
    necessary after purchase, and if the tech is remotely able it could well
    work well enough. Never mind bulk purchase for profit at a moderate
    markup. Sell at retail plus markup and they will still sell. we've seen
    over and over that techs can't come up with replacements on their own,
    so supply costs what supply costs, and supply houses don't need to make
    big investments on this item to get good rates. They just have to have a
    few on hand and charge accordingly.
    Ron N




  • 24.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 08-25-2016 06:30

    Metric bolts are available from McMaster-Carr or Graingers, simple enough; so supply houses would not need to offer these. It's the availability of Whitworth bolts that pose the problem. I wonder if Samick will supply Whitwort 1/2" x 12 hex head bolts.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 25.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2016 06:54

    For those that just chime and and fail to read the thread, Sensei Don answered this three days ago with a phone number and name 😎

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    608-518-2441
    928-899-7292



  • 26.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2016 08:18

    Jon,

     

    I have never heard of any Kawai leg bolt being a different thread, other than the oldest pianos (of which the 1971 piano might be one) having wood threaded bolts in the tail legs.

     

    I wonder if the old leg bolts were just poorly made and seem to measure as Whitworth?  Or is there a chance someone replaced the bolts and sockets with Samick parts?  Or I could be wrong and the old numbered pianos (of which I have one at home) could have been different and it has never come up before.  Hard to believe after 20 years at Kawai, but possible.

     

    As Larry Messerly mentioned, I responded to this thread earlier.  It is easy to call Kawai and order replacement leg bolts. We also have replacement sockets if there is concern about the threads not matching.  Why would US piano supply companies buy them from Kawai, mark them up and try to resell them?  If they did all the complainers would start a Pianotech thread lambasting the supply houses for being too expensive!

     

    Put this number in your cell phones: Kawai America – 800-421-2177. Kawai parts, tech support, etc.  I'm pretty sure Steinway, Samick and Yamaha have phone numbers as well. J

     

    Don Mannino

     

     






  • 27.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-26-2016 12:04

    Hi again,

    I double checked at the office today, the only leg bolt specs with machine threads we have record of are Metric: 12mm x 1.75mm thread pitch, 19mm bolt head.  They used to use versions with square bolt heads, and before that with a strange head with a hole through it that can be turned with a screwdriver shaft (I'm sure someone here knows the correct name for that, I don't).

    They come in 70mm, 85mm, and 100mm for different piano models and lyre designs. We also have a special one for French leg pianos that is 45mm and chrome plated.

    Yesterday I saw a message from someone saying they checked with Kawai, and someone confirmed that there were Whitworth bolts in some Kawai pianos.  This was not true, but I didn't save the message and it doesn't show in this message board. Deborah Baker, our parts person, said she talked to Philip Jamison who ordered some lyre bolts for a GE1 but insisted the leg bolts were Whitworth threads. Deborah had no idea what he was talking about, but offered to sell him the correct bolts for a GE1.

    Was Philips message on a different forum?

    In any case, as far as our records show, all machine thread Kawai leg and lyre bolts are metric thread.

    ------------------------------
    Don Mannino RPT
    Kawai America Corporation



  • 28.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-01-2016 08:57

    A follow-up to this subject:

    We finally got a reply from Japan about the leg bolts.  Before 1972 they used a Whitworth threaded bolt, and it was changed to the current metric thread when the KG pianos became the KG 'C' pianos.  So that would fit with what Jon Page reported earlier.

    So I stand corrected!  There have been 2 different thread standards.

    If you need to replace one of the old bolts, call Kawai and order both the leg bolt and the socket.  Ideally it would be best to change all of them at once so that future movers won't mix them up.

    Thanks for bringing up this subject, Philip!  We learned a new piece of Kawai trivia, and David Reed and Deborah Baker both will be aware of it in the future.

    ------------------------------
    Don Mannino RPT
    Kawai America Corporation



  • 29.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-01-2016 09:52

    Don Mannino- A very classy guy. More concerned with getting it right than being right. Amazing how much you can get done when you don't have to take the credit. Thank you , Don!

    ------------------------------
    David Brown
    Dallas TX
    214-288-9413



  • 30.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 09-01-2016 09:53

    In regards to the longer bolts for the lyre, for my rental piano, I bored the holes deeper into the lyre top so I can use all the same length bolts. It saves time with set up. I also removed the screw bracket at the top of the lyre props for the end to fit into a bushed block (similar to Baldwin). There are 4 'moving' operations for a rental. On the day before the event, the piano is set up and tuned. Event day, the piano is moved to the venue. The next day, the piano is brought back to the shop and left on its side. Fiddling with sorting screw lengths and prop screws adds to the moving time.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 31.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 09-03-2016 21:09

    OK, my next project this weekend is to ascertain if the Whitworth sockets have the same OD as the Metric sockets. Is it an even switch-out? Since both pianos are on their sides, I'll remove the rear leg sockets on the KG-3 and KG-2C Kawai pianos. Since I want to sell the former rental (KG-2C) hi-polish grand, it's more cost effective to swap fasteners with the KG-3 than to purchase all new metric hardware for the present KG-3 rental grand. Plus, I don't need Whitworth bolts in inventory.

    It will be just my luck that the metric sockets will be a little larger than the Whit-worth-less sockets. 

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 32.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 09-03-2016 22:04
    Even so, that shouldn't give you any real problem. Just a little more time.
    Ron N




  • 33.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 09-03-2016 22:43

    Yeah, what's a mm or 2 larger... in an area you can't get to easily. i'm hoping for the same dimension. If not, one piano is going to need to be  altered. I bet they don't even know the dimensional difference in their parts department.

    Heck, they didn't even know there were different bolts.

    This might be considered as on-the-job training, thanks to the PTG.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 34.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 09-03-2016 22:56
    A hole saw, from underneath, or a modified paddle bit, and it's easy.
    Just takes a little thought. Or grind the flange on the replacement down
    to fit the recess. It's really not a big deal either way.
    Ron N




  • 35.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-04-2016 14:57

    Yes, the old leg bolt sockets can be exchanged for the new ones.  They drop right in, screw down.

     

    The tail leg bolts on the oldest pianos were wood screws, did not have sockets at all.  That would be some work to change over.

     

    The screw type holding them in on most of the old ones was a flat head screw, and the new uses a round head though, so you can request the screws with the sockets.

     

    Don Mannino

     






  • 36.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 09-06-2016 08:39

    I took both rear leg mounting blocks off to access the fastener plates. They are dimensionally different. The Whitworth OD is larger than the Metric OD. The Metric will fit into the Whitworth counterbore (with room to spare) and the screw holes align.

    Here's the measurements:

    Metric OD: 1.98" (50.3 mm)

    Whitworth OD: 2.1" (53.4 mm)

    The configuration of each fastener is different too. The Metric is too tall by 1 mm for the Withworth's counterbore:

    Metric height: .515" (13.1 mm)

    Whitworth c/b: .475" (12 mm)

    So for the metric to be installed, the nut would have to be ground down so as not to be proud of the surface. Easy enough. I imagine the c/b in the keybed is the same.

    My impetus for changing is to get rid of the square head bolts (Whitworth). The metric square head bolts (on the old rental) were replaced with hex cap screws for power driving (easier rental setup). I'd use square drive round head screws to retrofit the metric plates but I'm wondering if it's worth the effort. Although, then I'd have Whitworth bolts and plates for replacements, they have to be worth a premium.... 

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 37.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 09-12-2016 15:30

    I talked with Deborah just now at Kawai and ordered 8 new sockets (metric). They are very inexpensive. Shipping costs more than the parts. I will replace the cap screws (currently using on the KG-2C, old rental) with the OEM square head bolts and use those cap screws with the new metric sockets on the new rental (KG-3). The bolts Kawai supplies are hex head and I want to use cap screws for easy setup.

    That means I will have 8 pairs of Whitworth sockets and bolts available.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 38.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-13-2016 08:49

    Jon,

     

    Maybe you should have offered to do a trade with Deborah!

     

    J

     

    Don Mannino

     






  • 39.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 09-13-2016 13:18
    What, and give up being the exclusive supplier for Whitworth leg
    hardware? He can name his price when it comes up again next month.
    Ron N




  • 40.  RE: Kawai Leg Bolt

    Posted 08-07-2020 20:52
    A few weeks ago, I received a call from someone in Arkansas. They had a Kawai grand moved from Cal. and the movers lost the leg hardware. It was a 1970 Kawai and I informed him that I was probably the sole supplier for this Whitworth hardware. He had ordered new hardware from Kawai and it did not fit. They should know by now.
    He had damaged one of the fasteners in the case by starting the metric bolt into a Whitworth fastener, so I included one fastener and six leg bolts. The lyre fastener system had been replaced with threaded SAE inserts so that was a hardware store bolt which he easily retrieved.  He got it up on its legs and will get a tech to replace the front treble fastener.  An internet search bought him to the list thread. Shazam !

    So now I have 5 Whitworth ½" x 12 tpi fasteners left.

    I never did change the lyre fasteners on the KG-3 because of the hassle to get to them. The piano is no longer a rental and has been sold and it will not be moved for a long time. It has new metric leg bolts and Whitworth lyre bolts. At least the lyre bolts are longer than the leg bolts. Only hope the future movers pay attention....nah.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------