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hearing beats?

  • 1.  hearing beats?

    Posted 08-26-2016 10:51
    Hello everyone,......................... I am in the process of trying to learn how to tune.  Can anyone give me any advice on how to hear beats? 

    Is there anything out there with recorded samples that compare pure  to non pure tone?

    Thanks Tom


  • 2.  RE: hearing beats?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-26-2016 11:15

    You need one of these

    Beat Locator | Coleman Tools & Supplies | Quality Piano Tools, Tuning, and Moving

    Coleman Tools & Supplies | Quality Piano Tools, Tuning, and Moving remove preview
    Beat Locator | Coleman Tools & Supplies | Quality Piano Tools, Tuning, and Moving
     
    View this on Coleman Tools & Supplies | Quality Piano Tools, Tuning, and Moving >
    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA



  • 3.  RE: hearing beats?

    Posted 08-26-2016 11:17
    How will that help me hear beats?





  • 4.  RE: hearing beats?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-26-2016 12:22

    Sorry. Perhaps I jumped to far forward.

    The best way to learn about hearing beats in the first place is to practice your unison tuning. That will help you learn what beats actually are. Once you have mastered unisons, then move on to temperament, where the Coleman Beat Locator will be a very handy learning tool. 

    Check out this video from Dan Levitan. When he gets to A5, the first A above the treble break, the beats are really obvious. 

    Dan Levitan, RPT - Unison Tuning

    YouTube remove preview
    Dan Levitan, RPT - Unison Tuning
    Dan Levitan, RPT New York City Chapter www.ptg.org
    View this on YouTube >
    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA



  • 5.  RE: hearing beats?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-26-2016 14:04
    Tom:

    Thanks for asking this.  I've been wanting to put some ideas down on paper.  So this reply is long. Hope it helps.

    Richard West

    For the person who's trying to hear beats in a piano, it's helpful to reduce distracting noises, so strip mute the piano from say F2 to F5 or so or strip the whole piano. Secondly, it's good to have the piano in tune to start with as a starting point that is already a good listening point. 

    It seems to me that when a person is asking for help in hearing beats, it's the fast beating intervals that are hardest.  First of all just try listening to thirds in the octave above the bass break.  It seems like some thirds pop out more than others. I'm not sure how much of that is the scaling of the piano and how much relates to a person's ear. But try to find some thirds that are clearer to your ear. Thirds close to the bass break are slower and easier for you to hear. Thirds above F4 get very fast, too fast probably for you at this point.  Think of a singer's vibrato. That's what you're trying to pick out. If you've found some clear thirds, then move back to the harder to hear thirds that were less obvious and see if you can find the beats.  Sometimes playing 10ths across the bass break helps to bring out the beat. Tenths are just thirds plus an octave. And they seem to be more obvious than just the thirds. The goal is to get your brain past the tone/pitch of an interval to the beats that are in the background. Just be assured that the beats are there, and they aren't really that hard to discern once you've learned to cut past the pitch. And as hard as it will be, try to block out the high pitches that will distract you. The upper partials can be loud and distracting so listen low. 

    Ghosting-I'm not a huge fan of ghosting, but it seems to help some people focus and it helps to teach the harmonic series and the interval relationships. Ghosting depends on finding the coincidental partial for an interval.  Let's take the F3-A3 third. To find the coincident partial where the beat will take place, you need to know that the ratio of a major third is 5:4. This means that the 5th partial of the lower note and the 4th partial of the upper note is the note where the beat occurs. The harmonic series order/sequence of partials for F3, then, would be F3 (1st partial), F4 (2nd partial), C5 (3rd partial) F5 (4th partial), and A5 (5th partial). The sequence of partials for A3 would be A3 (1st partial), A4 (2nd partial), D5 (3rd partial) and A5 (4th partial).  The 5:4 third, F3/A3 will beat at A5. Now that that is determined, silently hold down F3 and A3; then strike A5 with a sharp staccato blow. Because A5 is the coincidental partial for F3 and A3, the A5 partial which is in the harmonic series of both F3 and A3 will be activated so that the beats will be isolated and the pitches of the notes will be less prominent.  Try this going up to F#3/A#3, finding the ghosting note, striking that note with a staccato blow, and listening. Go up and down the middle of the piano to find ghosted thirds that may be louder and easier to hear.

    Tune-The intervals we tune can all be tuned pure and in fact aural tuning relies on knowing where pure is. It's impossible to properly temper an interval if you don't know where the note should be in regard to pure. The second bit of knowledge you need to have is the character of each interval in regard to pure. Thirds are significantly widened from pure. Fifths are slightly narrow from pure. Fourths are slightly widened from pure.  Don't think of a note as being sharp or flat; think of it as being positioned wide or narrow.

    Tune a pure major third-You are working on a piano that is already in tune, so you can be assured that the thirds are already wide. Therefore, ask yourself what do I have to do to make a pure third. Let's take G3/B3.  Every interval has two choices. Lower/raise the lower string or lower/raise the upper string of the interval. To narrow the third you can either raise G3 or lower B3. Let's lower B3 (taking a string down is safer in regard to breaking a string).  You can take some comfort in the fact that your ear naturally wants no beats.  A third without beats is calm to the eardrum. But tuning a pure interval is a real test of your motor skills and your auditory skill. You have to control the string movement very finely in order to hear the beat rate slow down and stop. It's easy to get it wrong and move through pure to the narrow side. You're trying to find pure and to do that you need to know where it is.  If you go narrow, the third will really start to sound unnatural. That should help you know you've gone too far. Plus if the third is narrow, it will start to beat again.  Raise and lower the string until there are no beats. Having a mentor to guide you can be very helpful in this exercise.

    Listen-listen to some other intervals that have B3. Listen to the 4th, B3/E4. It will be beating fairly fast because as you narrowed the third, G3/B3, you've widened the 4th, B3/E4. Any interval that you choose that contains the B3 will be different, i.e., out of tune. Listen to all the intervals and think about how each interval was changed by moving the B3 down. What happened to the B3/D# third? What happened to the E3/B3 fifth? The F#3/B3 4th? The interrelationship of intervals is what makes it possible to aurally tune an equal temperament with accuracy. Like a rubiks cube, making all the sides line up is tricky.

    Restore the third-Now you need to restore the third by widening it from pure. How do you know if it is correct? The G3/B3 needs to fit between the third below it and the third above.  The important thing to listen for is the tempo of the beat. The tempo of G3/B3 is slightly faster than Gflat3/Bflat3 and slightly slower than Aflat3/C4. Use your ETD to check yourself. If you can restore the third within a tolerance of less than 1 cent, you're headed the right direction. 

    Now do the same exercise only listen to the B3/E4 4th. What do you have to do to make that 4th pure?  Fourths are wide. Therefore you have to raise the B3 to make the 4th pure. But the 4th is not tempered to the degree of a third. A 4th is only slightly wide, 1 beat per second, to be exact. The problem with 4ths (and 5ths) is that it is easy to be on the wrong side of pure. As you move the B3 up, you'll probably pop right through pure before you even know it and be on the narrow side. If you hear the beats getting fast as you raise B3, then you know you've slipped past pure.  You're on the narrow side and the beats will start speeding up again.  If you aren't sure where you are, move the string down (the safe direction to move when uncertain) and listen to what happens. 

    The critical skill for tuning intervals is not counting beats, but hearing the tempo of the beat and hearing that tempo speed up or slow down or stop (pure). As the tempo changes, you're getting information about the character of the interval. You need to know the goal for the interval and then let the tempo of the beat tell you whether you're reaching your goal and whether you've set the string on the correct side of pure for the interval.






  • 6.  RE: hearing beats?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-26-2016 19:20
    Tom:

    I discovered a mistake in my last post, so I'm reprinting the message with the correction. The highlighted text is the correct 3rd partial for A3.  Sorry about the previous mistake. I'm surprised no one jumped on the error of my ways, but it tells me something. No one reads long emails. Also, going through this exercise shows you that having a Coleman Beat Locator could be useful. Then you wouldn't make stupid mistakes in finding the coincident partials.

    Richard 

    For the person who's trying to hear beats for the first time, it's helpful to reduce distracting noises, so strip muting the piano from say F2 to F5 or so might help, or strip the whole piano. Secondly, it's good to have the piano in tune to start with as a starting point that is already a good listening point. 

    It seems to me that when a person is asking for help in hearing beats, it's the fast beating intervals that are hardest.  First of all just try listening to thirds in the octave above the bass break.  It seems like some thirds pop out more than others. I'm not sure how much of that is the scaling of the piano and how much relates to a person's ear. But try to find thirds that are more obvious. Then move to thirds that are less obvious and see if you can find the beat there.  Sometimes playing 10ths across the bass break helps to bring out the beat. Tenths are just thirds plus an octave. And they seem to be more obvious than just the thirds. The goal is to get your brain past the tone/pitch of an interval to the beats that are in the background. Just be assured that the beats are there, and they aren't really that hard to discern once you've learned to cut past the pitch. 

    Ghosting-I'm not a huge fan of ghosting, but it seems to help some people focus and it helps to teach the harmonic series and the interval relationships. Ghosting depends on finding the coincidental partial for an interval.  Let's take the F3-A3 third. To find the coincident partial where the beat will take place, you need to know that the ratio of a major third is 5:4. This means that the 5th partial of the lower note and the 4th partial of the upper note is the note where the beat occurs. The sequence of partials for F3, then, would be F3 (1st partial), F4 (2nd partial), C5 (3rd partial) F5 (4th partial), and A5 (5th partial). The sequence of partials for A3 would be A3 (1st partial), A4 (2nd partial), E5 (3rd partial) and A5 (4th partial).  The 5:4 third, F3/A3 will beat at A5. Now that that is determined, silently hold down F3 and A3; then strike A5 with a sharp staccato blow. Because A5 is the coincidental partial for F3 and A3, the A5 partial which is in the harmonic series of both F3 and A3 will be activated so that the beats will be isolated and the pitches of the notes will be less prominent.  Try this going up to F#3/A#3, finding the ghosting note, and listening. Go up and down the middle of the piano to find ghosted thirds that may be louder and easier to hear. 

    Tune-The intervals we tune can all be tuned pure and in fact aural tuning relies on knowing where pure is. It's impossible to properly temper an interval if you don't know where the note should be in regard to pure. The second bit of knowledge you need to have is the character of each interval in regard to pure. Thirds are significantly widened from pure. Fifths are slightly narrow from pure. Fourths are slightly narrowed from pure.  Don't think of a note as being sharp or flat; think of it as being positioned wide or narrow. 

    Tune a pure major third-You are working on a piano that is already in tune, so you can be assured that the thirds are already wide. Therefore, ask yourself what do I have to do to make a pure third. Let's take G3/B3.  Every interval has two choices. Lower/raise the lower string or lower/raise the upper string of the interval. To narrow the third you can either raise G3 or lower B3. Let's lower B3 (taking a string down is safer in regard to breaking a string).  You can take some comfort in the fact that your ear naturally wants no beats.  A third without beats is calm to the eardrum. But tuning a pure interval is a real test of your motor skills and your auditory skill. You have to control the string movement very finely in order to hear the beat rate slow down and stop. It's easy to get it wrong and move through pure to the narrow side. You're trying to find pure and to do that you need to know where it is.  If you go narrow, the third will really start to sound unnatural. That should help you know you've gone too far. Plus if the third is narrow, it will start to beat again.  Raise and lower the string until there are no beats. Having a mentor to guide you can be very helpful in this exercise. 

    Listen-Now you want to raise that B3 to widen the third and restore it. Before you do that listen to some other intervals that have B3. Listen to the 4th, B3/E4. It will be beating fairly fast because as you narrowed the third, G3/B3, you've widened the 4th, B3/E4. Any interval that you choose that contains the B3 will be different, i.e., out of tune. Listen to all the intervals and think about how each interval was changed by moving the B3 down. What happened to the B3/D# third? What happened to the E3/B3 fifth? The F#3/B3 4th? The interrelationship of intervals is what makes it possible to aurally tune an equal temperament with accuracy. Like a rubics cube, making all the sides line up is tricky. 

    Restore the third-Now you need to restore the third by widening it from pure. How do you know if it is correct? The G3/B3 needs to fit between the third below it and the third above.  The important thing to listen for is the tempo of the beat. The tempo of G3/B3 is slightly faster than Gflat3/Bflat3 and slightly slower than Aflat3/C4. Use your ETD to check yourself. If you can restore the third within a tolerance of less than 1 cent, you're headed the right direction. 

    Now do the same exercise only listen to the B3/E4 4th. What do you have to do to make that 4th pure?  Fourths are wide. Therefore you have to raise the B3 to make the 4th pure. But the 4th is not tempered to the degree of a third. A 4th is only slightly wide, 1 beat per second, to be exact. The problem with 4ths (and 5ths) is that it is easy to be on the wrong side of pure. As you move the B3 up, you'll probably pop right through pure before you even know it and be on the narrow side. If you hear the beats getting fast as you raise B3, then you know you've slipped past pure.  You're on the narrow side and the beats will start speeding up again.  If you aren't sure where you are, move the string and listen to what happens. The critical skill for tuning intervals is not counting beats, but hearing the tempo of the beat and hearing that tempo speed up or slow down or stop (pure). As the tempo changes, you're getting information about the character of the interval. You need to know the goal for the interval and then let the tempo of the beat tell you whether you're reaching your goal and whether you've set the string on the correct side of pure for the interval.






  • 7.  RE: hearing beats?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-26-2016 19:37
    Yet another careless mistake, corrected and highlighted below.  My proofreading today was sorely lacking.  I hope all is good now. Actually this was just a ploy to get everyone to read the email to ferret out all the errors.  I welcome friendly ferrets, friendly corrections, and friendly comments. Ron and Jason had helpful suggestions in their emails.

    Richard

    For the person who's trying to hear beats for the first time, it's helpful to reduce distracting noises, so strip muting the piano from say F2 to F5 or so might help, or strip the whole piano. Secondly, it's good to have the piano in tune to start with as a starting point that is already a good listening point. 

    It seems to me that when a person is asking for help in hearing beats, it's the fast beating intervals that are hardest.  First of all just try listening to thirds in the octave above the bass break.  It seems like some thirds pop out more than others. I'm not sure how much of that is the scaling of the piano and how much relates to a person's ear. But try to find thirds that are more obvious. Then move to thirds that are less obvious and see if you can find the beat there.  Sometimes playing 10ths across the bass break helps to bring out the beat. Tenths are just thirds plus an octave. And they seem to be more obvious than just the thirds. The goal is to get your brain past the tone/pitch of an interval to the beats that are in the background. Just be assured that the beats are there, and they aren't really that hard to discern once you've learned to cut past the pitch. 

    Ghosting-I'm not a huge fan of ghosting, but it seems to help some people focus and it helps to teach the harmonic series and the interval relationships. Ghosting depends on finding the coincidental partial for an interval.  Let's take the F3-A3 third. To find the coincident partial where the beat will take place, you need to know that the ratio of a major third is 5:4. This means that the 5th partial of the lower note and the 4th partial of the upper note is the note where the beat occurs. The sequence of partials for F3, then, would be F3 (1st partial), F4 (2nd partial), C5 (3rd partial) F5 (4th partial), and A5 (5th partial). The sequence of partials for A3 would be A3 (1st partial), A4 (2nd partial), E5 (3rd partial) and A5 (4th partial).  The 5:4 third, F3/A3 will beat at A5. Now that that is determined, silently hold down F3 and A3; then strike A5 with a sharp staccato blow. Because A5 is the coincidental partial for F3 and A3, the A5 partial which is in the harmonic series of both F3 and A3 will be activated so that the beats will be isolated and the pitches of the notes will be less prominent.  Try this going up to F#3/A#3, finding the ghosting note, and listening. Go up and down the middle of the piano to find ghosted thirds that may be louder and easier to hear. 

    Tune-The intervals we tune can all be tuned pure and in fact aural tuning relies on knowing where pure is. It's impossible to properly temper an interval if you don't know where the note should be in regard to pure. The second bit of knowledge you need to have is the character of each interval in regard to pure. Thirds are significantly widened from pure. Fifths are slightly narrow from pure. Fourths are slightly widened from pure.  Don't think of a note as being sharp or flat; think of it as being positioned wide or narrow. 

    Tune a pure major third-You are working on a piano that is already in tune, so you can be assured that the thirds are already wide. Therefore, ask yourself what do I have to do to make a pure third. Let's take G3/B3.  Every interval has two choices. Lower/raise the lower string or lower/raise the upper string of the interval. To narrow the third you can either raise G3 or lower B3. Let's lower B3 (taking a string down is safer in regard to breaking a string).  You can take some comfort in the fact that your ear naturally wants no beats.  A third without beats is calm to the eardrum. But tuning a pure interval is a real test of your motor skills and your auditory skill. You have to control the string movement very finely in order to hear the beat rate slow down and stop. It's easy to get it wrong and move through pure to the narrow side. You're trying to find pure and to do that you need to know where it is.  If you go narrow, the third will really start to sound unnatural. That should help you know you've gone too far. Plus if the third is narrow, it will start to beat again.  Raise and lower the string until there are no beats. Having a mentor to guide you can be very helpful in this exercise. 

    Listen-Now you want to raise that B3 to widen the third and restore it. Before you do that listen to some other intervals that have B3. Listen to the 4th, B3/E4. It will be beating fairly fast because as you narrowed the third, G3/B3, you've widened the 4th, B3/E4. Any interval that you choose that contains the B3 will be different, i.e., out of tune. Listen to all the intervals and think about how each interval was changed by moving the B3 down. What happened to the B3/D# third? What happened to the E3/B3 fifth? The F#3/B3 4th? The interrelationship of intervals is what makes it possible to aurally tune an equal temperament with accuracy. Like a rubics cube, making all the sides line up is tricky. 

    Restore the third-Now you need to restore the third by widening it from pure. How do you know if it is correct? The G3/B3 needs to fit between the third below it and the third above.  The important thing to listen for is the tempo of the beat. The tempo of G3/B3 is slightly faster than Gflat3/Bflat3 and slightly slower than Aflat3/C4. Use your ETD to check yourself. If you can restore the third within a tolerance of less than 1 cent, you're headed the right direction. 

    Now do the same exercise only listen to the B3/E4 4th. What do you have to do to make that 4th pure?  Fourths are wide. Therefore you have to raise the B3 to make the 4th pure. But the 4th is not tempered to the degree of a third. A 4th is only slightly wide, 1 beat per second, to be exact. The problem with 4ths (and 5ths) is that it is easy to be on the wrong side of pure. As you move the B3 up, you'll probably pop right through pure before you even know it and be on the narrow side. If you hear the beats getting fast as you raise B3, then you know you've slipped past pure.  You're on the narrow side and the beats will start speeding up again.  If you aren't sure where you are, move the string and listen to what happens. The critical skill for tuning intervals is not counting beats, but hearing the tempo of the beat and hearing that tempo speed up or slow down or stop (pure). As the tempo changes, you're getting information about the character of the interval. You need to know the goal for the interval and then let the tempo of the beat tell you whether you're reaching your goal and whether you've set the string on the correct side of pure for the interval.

     






  • 8.  RE: hearing beats?

    Posted 08-26-2016 20:11

    LOL, Thanks





  • 9.  RE: hearing beats?

    Posted 08-27-2016 07:03

    Richard, I did read the entire post. I see, Rachel isn't the only writer in the family.

    I found your mentioning the B3 in 'Listening -' valuable.
    Second, you didn't muddy the discussion with that four letter word 'test'.
    Third, you 'kept it real' mentioning that they are hard to hear.


    I would only add to the discussion, the matter of technique of listening.

    You have to experiment with moving your head to hear or make it easier to
    hear the beats. On one particular interval I may have to turn my left ear toward
    the strings to hear the partial, yet on a different interval, I have to face the strings to
    locate the partial. I find that partials have a way of disappearing, i.e. I hear them
    at first but then I can't. I have to 'freshen' my ear by listening to a
    different interval and then go back to the interval I'm working on.

    ------------------------------
    Richard Primeaux
    Associated PTG member
    Hammond LA




  • 10.  RE: hearing beats?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-27-2016 11:50
    Ed - Thanks for the suggestion. It looks like the Sig Gen app is only for iOS products.
    Can't use it on my Android, but will d/l later on my iPad mini.

    Richard - With your permission, I would like to copy and use your instructions as
    supplemental in my intro piano tech class at the college.

    As for learning to hear beats - I was placed in front of a piano (old Baldwin 243 jalopy)
    and made to tune and detune unisons by muting one string, allowing one other string
    to remain untouched and told to tune and detune the third string repeatedly. I think
    we started with F3 and C4.






  • 11.  RE: hearing beats?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-27-2016 12:11
    Dave, 

    You have my permission to use my "hearing beats?" email. Hearing beats in unisons is, of course, where the rubber hits the road and is the best practice for improving the ear, and hammer technique.  Most electronic and beginning technicians do unisons aurally. But taking the next step, hearing beats in intervals, seems to be a real barrier. 

    Be sure to add Richard Primeaux's comment into the mix. He's absolutely right about the importance of getting your head/ear/body in a position that helps make the beat clearer/louder. The same is true for ETDs; moving the ETD can improve the reading that it shows.

    And I like that rollerball link. It could be enlightening for a beginning student.

    Richard West





  • 12.  RE: hearing beats?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-26-2016 12:07

    advice on how to hear beats? 

    Start with guitar.

    ------------------------------
    Paul Klaus



  • 13.  RE: hearing beats?

    Posted 08-26-2016 13:34
    My advice to hundreds of my customers through the years who asked how I
    could tell if and when the piano was in tune has been this: Sit in front
    of a running fan and hum into it. As you raise and lower the pitch of
    your voice, you will hear the beat rate speed up, or slow down. You can
    even make it stop. I learned this a thousand years ago when I was a 40
    lb skinny kid. This is the very best of all possible ways that I know of
    to hear beats, and once you hear what a beat sounds like, you can find
    them in comparing strings in a piano too. Living in the area of Beech
    and Cessna manufacturing plants, I've also heard hundreds of twin engine
    light planes flying overhead with the engines out of sync.
    Yeoweeoweeoweeow... Go to your local church. Turn on the organ, wedge
    one key in one clean stop down, and walk back and forth down the isle
    toward and away from it. Beat speed is contingent on walking speed
    there, and it's a combination Doppler and echo effect.

    The fan is the best and easiest demonstration.
    Ron N




  • 14.  RE: hearing beats?

    Posted 08-26-2016 14:03

    Tom,

    Download the SigGen app from Audio Artillery. With this you can generate two simultaneous sine waves. Try 440 and 444, then 443, then 442, and so on. The difference between two frequencies will be the beats per second. This app will enable you to recreate the beating of coincident partials, to show your ear what to listen for, and where.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413



  • 15.  RE: hearing beats?

    Member
    Posted 08-26-2016 16:26
    Check this out.

    Quoting from what I wrote on the page: "As aural tuners, most of us learned to listen to the beat rates of the major thirds in the temperament octave, which is usually F3-F4. When I was a pup, my mentor set up a pendulum with a length of one meter, which therefore swings with a period of one second; and while watching the pendulum swing, I learned to recite "From Chicago to New York" so that the seven syllables filled the second... therefore the speed of the syllables was 7 per second, which was also the desired beat rate of the F3-A3 third. And so on with "From Mississippi to New York" and other such phrases.

    "The beat rates of these major thirds are formed by the simultaneous sounding of the fifth partial of the lower note with the fourth partial of the upper note. The following table illustrates these frequencies, and the resulting beats, as they occur in a typical Steinway D. The 5-second sound files are created using the shareware program Audacity, and represent solely the beating frequencies without any of the other partials generated by the two piano tones comprising the major third."






  • 16.  RE: hearing beats?

    Posted 08-27-2016 15:23
    Hello Tom - I learned to hear beats by going the pipe organ way. The problem with hearing beats in a piano is the decay factor. With a pipe organ you don't get that. Once mastered you're all set to go on pianos. Trouble with pipe organs though is that it requires two people - one at the keyboard and you in amongst those pipes. Also, of course, you need to find an organ to play with and, ideally, a patient organ tuner to show you the 'ropes' and clear up your mistakes!   
    Michael  UK





  • 17.  RE: hearing beats?

    Posted 08-27-2016 17:45

    Hello Tom,

    Welcome. Inventronics makes a great product called a Sanderson Beat-Rater. I think that you will find it a great aid in learning to tune aurally. To check it out go to www.Accu-Tuner.com and then click on Products and then on Beat Rater. Then either buy it from your local Accu-Tuner dealer or Inventronics,Inc. direct. Current price is $175.00 plus shipping. Hang in there.

    Chris Solliday






  • 18.  RE: hearing beats?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-27-2016 20:44

    From the Sanderson Beat Rate device text...

    "Best of all, all the beat rates can be slowed down or sped up together to fit the beats of a particular piano being tuned, which will rarely have theoretically correct beat rates."

    For the newbies just learning to tune, that means that the beat rate of 7 bps on the F3-A3 third is theoretical. It's an easy to achieve beat rate you aim for in laying down the temperament but which will likely not be 7 bps by the time you have the temperament refined and set. When finished setting the temperament the F3-A3 beat rate will be around 7 bps, but will vary depending on piano size and inharmonicity. 

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA



  • 19.  RE: hearing beats?

    Posted 09-05-2016 12:05

    Here's a tool Robert Scott (TuneLab) is currently developing that may be helpful: Piano Tuning Simulator

    ------------------------------
    Scott Kerns
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Lincoln, NE
    www.thattuningguy.com



  • 20.  RE: hearing beats?

    Posted 09-05-2016 12:11
    I have installed it, but how does it work?





  • 21.  RE: hearing beats?

    Posted 09-08-2016 00:10

    Play

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480



  • 22.  RE: hearing beats?

    Posted 06-19-2017 23:17

    Recently I submitted a somewhat arbitrary comment about playing the piano in order to hear beats, responded to privately. I never responded. There are many ways musical experience can help us to hear the string vibrate, or beat, more accurately.

    When I purchased a top of the line ETD, I received with it something renamed a Cyberfork. Though provided to calibrate my newest toy to a precise A440, it is actually a quartz metronome. The first thing I learned to do when learning to tune was a contiguous thirds temperament; the first thing I ever used a metronome to do was to set a tempo when playing a piano, and to play with a consistent one. It certainly was different. A contiguous thirds temperament can be used for any octave in the mid-range if we think about the 3 thirds less like a specific amount of Beats Per Second, less like a 5:4 partial, and more like the difference between Presto, Andante, and Largo, which are things that primarily are musically understood by playing an instrument. In this way, hearing beats is high art, not hard science. Starting low in the midrange is easier. What is sought, even by interpreting a work originally written with a particular number within those tempo markings by the composer due to disparities in acoustics and instruments needs to be understood by the general meaning of the tempo marking; sometimes we walk fast, sometimes we walk slow, and frequently this is determined by our mood at the moment we play Andante. Determining BPS is something like that we can do better with a strong understanding of tempos; we can make it a form of expression if we understand it well enough, as we can Allegro. And fortunately for our piano players out there, our literature is the most generous in solo form and the most demanding in requiring an understanding of pacing in tempo. We do it for other instruments all the time in chamber music. Or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, or the person you are collaborating with.

    Pacing is part of aural tuning in general. An instrument and a room can dictate our pace of tuning. How loud or quiet the room or instrument is, how big or small the room or instrument is, both the pace that we tune, and beat rates, are affected by this. Having experience in music can make all the difference, or admittedly, for those who never learn to tune aurally, none.    

    Rhythm is part of making music, and is not to be distinguished from hearing the vibration of the 5:4 partial. One of Dad's students was a percussion major, and went on to graduate school making a living off of tuning for dealers in the area. A strong sense of rhythm assists in hearing beats. The piano, guitar, many instruments can be defined in terms of rhythm instruments, in some settings and functions more than others. Simply understanding the rhythmic aspect of an instrument can help one to hear beats.

    In music theory classes, the piano player is envied most of all. Piano is a lesson in music theory more than any other solo or chamber music instrument. There is a sense of finality in music theory that directs us to characteristics of piano tuning; counterpoint as a form of composition directs us to tuning in proscribing parallel movement in fourths, fifths, and octaves, while prescribing it for thirds and sixths, much like the movement of well-tempering to equal-tempering in the Baroque; modulation in Sonata form sometimes directs us to relationships between tonic, sub-dominant, and dominant, or the relationship in the heptatonic scale between Ionian and Aeolian, which might be favored in historical temperaments. Returning to Tonic in a Recapitulation from the Exposition can help us to understand the importance of octaves. The slattern third of the Renaissance musical imagination avoided with religious fervor directs us to so favor perfect intervals in the West; modulation to thirds was almost forbidden. It certainly sounds sexier pure. The cadence, be it the timeless 2-5-1 cadence in Jazz, the Authentic Cadence, or the declining Plagal cadence, the harmonic part for the final common Amen of the Hymn tradition of church music, all these direct us to musical characteristics that create the sense of inevitability and conclusiveness in Western harmony at the foundation of which is the way we tune the roots of these chord changes to one another. What gives the sus chord, the suspended fourth, when not resolving to a dominant seventh chord, "a floating quality," as the jazz theorist Mark Levine claimed? Is it really that it does not resolve? Is it not, rather, the width of the fourth? Pianists specifically get a huge head start in understanding these principles, which are directly related to tuning.

    Memorization of literature also is a process that prepares us for the task of aural tuning. It is a slow, methodical, process, learned and achieved by repetition. It takes us a step closer to the discipline and focus it takes to aural tune. This is for the soloist, most the responsibility of the pianists also, and singers. Preparing literature is much like the task of learning to aural tune. It starts slow, sometimes, very slow, and requires a tenacity that few are born with. But memorization, is closer to meditation, as with aural tuning. I've often heard ETD users admit, I just don't have the energy to concentrate that much. One can use an ETD much more distractedly. Hearing beats takes constant fixation upon sound. Will anyone dare to question the fact that to aural tune, you must be more involved in the process? It is also amazing to discover in the process of attempting to train people with this kind of discipline to aural tune, how hard it proves to be for the same people.   

    It is difficult to determine whether or not music theory shaped the way we tune, or if tuning shaped our music theory. Tuning in general certainly cannot be understood completely by just analyzing the physics of acoustics in a piano string.

     



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    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
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  • 23.  RE: hearing beats?

    Posted 06-20-2017 02:18
    Benjamin - I don't know that 'hearing the beats is high art' but rather a necessary 'tool' for tuning. I tune with an over-all respect to: 12th. root of 2. Once established in the mind, one can refer to frequency charts to establish just why the beats are there at all. Even discover reasons for outlandish 'aids' in tuning this way. Now that is 'high art' coupled with common sense. I started as an apprentice organ-builder so was lucky enough to sit at the console whilst the Journeyman set the bearings up in the organ surrounded by pipes - using just a tuning fork. 
    Another sample of 'high art'. 
    The organ has one over-riding attribute - the notes do not decay.
    Michael    UK





  • 24.  RE: hearing beats?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-20-2017 16:07

    This dialogue takes place pretty much every day in a customer's home:

    - 'Do you have perfect pitch?'

    - 'Not quite, but it isn't needed to tune pianos.'

    - 'Really? How do you know where to place the notes, then?'

    At that time, I do two things

    1) I bring forward my two tuning forks, A-440 and A-442, and hit them simultaneously, placing them on the table, and say "one is a bit higher than the other, do you hear the wobble?" "- Sure!"

    2) then I silently depress F2 and A2, both have only one string open (I almost always strip-mute the bass). Then I hit A4 fairly hard, and ask "do you hear the wobble?" "- Yes, this one's a bit faster!". "- It is, indeed! Tuning the piano until it sounds good, this major 3rd end up a bit wider than if it was tuned pure, so the upper note is a bit higher than it 'should be'. It causes the wobble, just as with the tuning forks earlier." 

    Then I hit the F2 and A2 major third by itself, and about one out of five customers hear the wobbling. I then just mention that as you learn to tune, you teach you ears to hear the wobble without triggering the overtones themselves (ghosting.) It seems to make perfect sense to the customers. 

    So I second Richard on the advantage of ghosting when it comes to learning how to hear beats.



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    Patrick Wingren, RPT
    Jakobstad, Finland
    0035844-5288048
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  • 25.  RE: hearing beats?

    Posted 06-21-2017 07:30
      |   view attached
    Michael,
    Are you sure that the decay factor is the only thing that makes hearing beats of multiple tones easier when a vibration is forced through an organ pipe? Are you goading me into answering this right or wrong? Are not pipe organs designed in such a way that you are only tuning the fundamental frequency of the wind passing through the tube? Hertz numbers will therefore, be more effective in determining pitch tuning organs. Though some larger organs produce mutations through a pipe forcing a fundamental vibration through the tube, are not mutations generally procured in smaller organs by the mechanism of the organ itself, not the tuner, by altering the flow of air through the pipe, without the tuner's help, changing the frequency independently?
     
    A piano teacher of mine described this difference of decay by the terms sustaining and non-sustaining instruments, claiming the piano to be a non-sustaining instrument. Another piano teacher taught me to carry a melody by phrasing to compensate for the decaying sound of a piano, by matching the decayed volume with the following note. But another thing that makes hearing beats easier with the organ is that we are only working with fundamentals as tuners. We are not attempting to calculate what frequency the string will vibrate at in the harmonic series with wind passing through an organ pipe. The organ pipe is sized to produce the fundamental sound of the pipe, and pitch is determined to rise an octave at a time by reducing the size of the pipe by half, not by changing the frequency. The piano is not scaled so cleanly. We don't have to make any compromises for natural harmonics when stops called mutations sometimes produces overtones; the organ is designed to do that by itself without our help. Mixtures as well, are these not just a series of pipes sounding that we tune to the fundamental themselves that are nevertheless producing tones in the harmonic series?    

    You could even argue that tuning an organ will impede your ability to stretch a tuning on a piano if you don't know the difference between tuning to the fundamental and tuning to natural harmonics. But it will help you to hear beats because the sound of the fundamental is purer, and for this reason, as I suspect you know, you are absolutely correct as well. It also could be argued it is easier to force a vibration through a pipe than to force a vibration from a string to a soundboard, which is at the heart of another present discussion about rib dimensions in a Steinway B.

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    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
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  • 26.  RE: hearing beats?

    Posted 06-22-2017 03:14
    Benjamin,

    Forced? The pipes are 'caused' to resonate sympathetic to their dimensions. And yes, you have a very valid point about the Organ Flue Pipe being a fundamental (or first harmonic) resonator. But the sound does not decay and therefore becomes an excellent aid in training the ear to hear those fundamental beats. Once learnt, never forgotten. Then the ear can be further trained to hear the results of complex wave-forms present from a vibrating piano string. Knowing what to listen for in the first place is basic to the piano tuner's ability to tune. As an aside, the Organ Builders' Art extended into the unknown when Haskill propounded a means of reducing the length of a pipe without the use of mitred joints. Keeping the scaling, he inserted a stopped pipe inside the body of a large pipe and thereby increased its effective length. We can't do that in pianos! 
    I can understand that your basis of thought in this post is to ally 'performance' with 'tuning' (or so it seems) but I rely on the performer to tell me of any difficulties in producing what is required in their performance due to inadequacies in the piano they are playing. This works for me. All comments of a performer are to be taken Very Seriously Indeed - demonstrably so - which makes you, the Tuner, part of the team producing the performance.
    Now go back to that chart of frequencies you have drawn up to show up to the fifth harmonic of all the notes on a well-tuned piano. Herein lies the magic of understanding whether a piano is in tune or not - and, more importantly, why.
    Michael     UK





  • 27.  RE: hearing beats?

    Posted 06-23-2017 07:41
    Plato Beans and Rice Mike🤧 to get in the door, with garlic please,
     Forced vibration opposed to free vibration, don't wiki that it is 💩

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    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
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