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Renolanstift

  • 1.  Renolanstift

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-27-2017 17:02
    Does anyone have experience with the lubricant called Renolanstift?  It is sold by Renner, also Jahn and probably other European supply companies. It comes in a white (or now clear) plastic tube with a little tapered applicator.  It is super slippery stuff and has freed up hammer flange bushings that did not respond well to other things like Protek.  There is very little information online (if anything) and Renner really doesn't say much about it either.  So, my questions are:

    1) Since the applicator tip does not easily (in fact will not) fit between hammershanks while mounted on the rail so as to apply directly to the side of the bushing, does anyone know precisely what this is intended for?

    2) On the Jahn site, it states about the product (translated into english): "Not to be used on winged hammer axles" (or "axes" depending on which rendering you read).  Does anyone know what "winged hammer axles" are?  Personally I think it is referring to hammer flange bushings (wings of the shank?)   Anyone know?

    3) It now comes in three viscosities, light, medium, and strong.  What are the intended areas for this stuff?  It is quite expensive for the quantity in the tube. It would need to be used sparingly.

    I have also mixed it in with Protek to try to create a "super lube" concoction. Hard to tell if it made any difference.

    Looking for advice from someone in the know.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 2.  RE: Renolanstift

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-27-2017 17:46
    Peter,
    I believe you're correct to identify the term "winged hammer axels" as hammer flanges. My response to your question is to relay my experience with easing hammer flange bushings. The time tested (at least 50 years or more) solution for easing flange bushings is a mixture of 50/50 water/alcohol, or sometimes more water: maybe 60 parts water and 40 parts alcohol. I have almost never had a callback with this solution. The water swells the felt tightly around the pin and the alcohol flashes off the water after a period of time – usually about 6 – 12 hours depending upon the humidity in the air. I have mentioned this before on this list; lubricants such as Protek are heavy solutions that stay in the felt and subtract from the goal of easing the bushing. The water/alcohol completely evaporates leaving no elements within the felt. I use the alcohol/water solution and apply it to the flanges using the Schaff applicator # 191 Hypo Oiler.
    Roger Gable





  • 3.  RE: Renolanstift

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2017 19:19
    I have to agree that alcohol/H2O is a much better solution. I have seen oil based lubricants like this German one and Protek cause parts to seize up after a year or two. Matter of fact, Renner parts have been doing this for the last two years or more, as installed out of the box, nothing added. Pianos that were weighed off 52g down weight in the bass to 48g in the treble have been seizing up completely, actions not playing or repeating, jacks seizing up, hammers not even doing 1 full swing with the swing test. I have videos that I can share if anyone is interested in crying and a stiff drink this evening.

    After seeing the same issues after techs have used protek, I suspect it's due to the German counterpart we are now discussing, which appears to impregnate all centerpin bushings of all their parts, judging by the red smear I see everywhere.

    As a result, we hired someone new last year, and one of his primary jobs is repinning new parts. A full time employee is cheaper than having to go out and repin all our rebuilds in the field, realign parts, and go over the regulation.

    Best of luck and fair warning. :o)

    Elizabeth Pearson RPT




  • 4.  RE: Renolanstift

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2017 00:49
    I'm guessing that winged hammer axels are grand hammer flanges. Flugel is a name for grand pianos in German meaning wing. I don't have any knowledge about this lubricant.

    Sent from my iPad
    CarlPianoTech.com




  • 5.  RE: Renolanstift

    Posted 01-28-2017 03:04
    Peter - Flugel = Wing - which, in turn describes the top of a Grand Piano - which is what the Germans call a Grand.  Michael   UK





  • 6.  RE: Renolanstift

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-16-2017 13:07

    Aah, little did I know...

    Thank you, Michael. In my mother tongue Swedish, a grand is called a "flygel", which is very much the same as the german "Flügel", we just spell the ü differently over here.

    And a "flygel" in Swedish can also be the wing of a building. But it can not be the wing of a bird, for that we have a word close to your word in English, "vinge".

    So I never really made the connection between the grand lid/shape and Flügel. But once you mentioned it, it all falls into place :)

     



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    Patrick Wingren, RPT
    Jakobstad, Finland
    0035844-5288048
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  • 7.  RE: Renolanstift

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-16-2017 15:01
    Word facts! Love it!

    And the Russians call a grand a "royal", while an upright is a "pianino" (little piano.)

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 8.  RE: Renolanstift

    Posted 06-17-2017 12:41
    Susan, I'm curious, and wish I had my dictionary here (though it would probably be insufficient), about the Russian terms.  Of course, when I was there and studying, I was studying language and music, not piano technology.  I took voice, conducting and composition from professors at the Moscow Conservatory while I was there for my Junior Year Abroad in college ('97-'98 school year).  Possibly, had I been studying piano performance, I would have heard those terms...  "Igrat' na pianino" is how they say "to play the piano," while they would refer to the piano in general is a "fortepiano."  Do you know what word was used, for royal, as you say they use for grands?  If you can enter it in Cyrillic, that would be even better...

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    Sarah Kaeder
    Portland OR
    503-313-1545
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  • 9.  RE: Renolanstift

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2017 15:14
    Sarah, I need to fish out my old Russian English dictionary. I'm sure you know a lot more Russian than I do! What a neat thing, to study at the Moscow Conservatory! And well before our latest set-to over cyber-war.

    Since there is such a strong influence of French in Russia (the upper classes spoke in French a lot!) I'm sure that "royal" for a grand piano came from "royale" in French. I imagine it ends in soft sign, but I'll check it out and get back to you. Got to run.

    At some point it might be fun to figure out how to post in Cyrillic here. I probably just need to find the right font.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 10.  RE: Renolanstift

    Posted 01-28-2017 06:21
    Go to the English version of the Jahn website. One version is recommended for grand hammer center pins, the other two are not.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 11.  RE: Renolanstift

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2017 18:24
    Thank you all.

    Yes, I agree with your assessments and Ed, I noticed the same discrepancy in the Jahn descriptions.

    So, what I am trying to get at is, if Renner, being an action company, sells this for their products, but a leading supplier in Europe says it is not intended for hammer flange bushings, then what is it actually intended for?  I would assume some European techs would be familiar with this stuff.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Renolanstift

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-29-2017 17:19
    Elizabeth, 

    I wonder if that is what I am seeing in a 20 year old Renner action where the jack pins are migrating out of their places?  Obviously not tight enough in the birdseye but maybe aggravated by tight centers.  Hmmmmm.

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Renolanstift

    Posted 01-30-2017 02:08
    Jack centre pins need to be tight in the jack - not in the birds' eye.     Michael    UK





  • 14.  RE: Renolanstift

    Posted 01-30-2017 09:03
    Check your comment.
    "Jack centre pins need to be tight in the jack - not in the birds' eye. Michael UK"

    Michael,
    All center Pins function best when snug or tight in the birds eye. The bushings are reamed or adjusted as necessary to achieve consistent, balanced and appropriate amount of friction. Jacks should have close to zero amount of friction.
    Kinest Regards
    -Garret

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    Garret Traylor
    Trinity NC
    336-887-4266
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  • 15.  RE: Renolanstift

    Posted 01-30-2017 09:17
    To add additional clarification ... unbalanced reaming causes center pins to move .... made worse by a  loose birdseye.
    -Garret u

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    Garret Traylor
    Trinity NC
    336-887-4266
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  • 16.  RE: Renolanstift

    Posted 01-31-2017 02:00
    Garret - There are two methods of mounting a jack. It depends entirely on whether the ears of the jack have the birds' eye or the lever has the birds' eye. Whether it is the jack or lever which does the 'gripping' of the centre pin. I have seen both. If it is the jack which has the birds' eye and the jack ears are bushed then this is where there should be minimum friction. Maybe we are at cross-purposes?    Michael   UK





  • 17.  RE: Renolanstift

    Posted 01-31-2017 23:11
    Hi Michael,
    I had not considered a different design. It is awe inspiring the creativeness of those who have made our profession possible. I appreciate your response. I am unfamiliar with the "ears of the jack have the birds' eye" design.

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    Garret Traylor
    Trinity NC
    336-887-4266
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  • 18.  RE: Renolanstift

    Posted 02-01-2017 04:08
    Hello Garret - thanks for taking the trouble - yes, consider the Bechstein Grand - and their wood-framed action Uprights (Verticals) I don't know whether this action layout still obtains in the new grands, but in the earlier models the lever is 'attached' to the adjustable floater on top of the key through a short 'sticker' (a pipe organ term.) Here the centre pin is firmly fixed in both sides of the floater and the sticker with its open end bushing has to be levered off that centre pin in order to dismantle it. For this dismantling I use a pair of surgical clamps - long scissor-like things which I also use when replacing covered strings - to keep the loop on the hitch-pin. But I digress, so I'd better end here - 'cos it's nothing to do with Renolanstift! - which I've never heard of anyway!      Michael   UK





  • 19.  RE: Renolanstift

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-01-2017 09:38
    Garrett

    An example of the outer fixed pin that is probably readily available for viewing is the sticker in older uprights.  The sticker itself is bushed at the top and the pins are fixed in the sides of the wippen body.  This same format exists where the pivot arm is pinned through the sides of the sticker and the pivot arm is bushed. 

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    Norman Cantrell
    Piano Clinic
    Lawton OK
    580-355-5003
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  • 20.  RE: Renolanstift

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-01-2017 10:28
    More recent, Baldwin spinet lifters

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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
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  • 21.  RE: Renolanstift

    Posted 02-01-2017 15:10
    Thanks Norman,
    I'm with you.
    I suppose the Vegas elbow operates in a similar manner, Yes?

    It is a manner nomenclature and function.

    Reaching for my book  Piano Parts and Their Function: Illustrated by James Campbell compiled by Merrill H Mason
    Page 48 Illustration XXIII #11
    Bird's Eye; also referred to as rosette, profile or Frazine.

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    Garret Traylor
    Trinity NC
    336-887-4266
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  • 22.  RE: Renolanstift

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-01-2017 19:42
    Elizabeth, 

    I will be re-pinning as needed. Not my idea of fun, but necessary in this case.  Actually the jack pins are the only ones affected this way. Everything else is good. Hard to figure why.

    On the other hand I know of a 15 yr old Renner action that is a total disaster. In this case it is subjected to the extreme of the extremes, especially in winter.  Pins moving all over the place. Needs total replacement, no questions asked.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Renolanstift

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-16-2017 15:01

    This discussion is another example of why the translation of our written exam into other language is a huge can of worms.  I have the "Nomenclatur" book by Nikolaus Schimmel that has piano nomenclature offered in 6 languages.  For about 90% of the English terms, there are two versions, one USA and one UK.  I also happen to know that there is the same problem with Canadian French and Mexican Spanish.

    For both French Canadians and Mexicans, much of the European nomenclature was incomprehensible.  They either had their own word or more often, they borrowed the word from American English because that is where they learned much of what they know, from American English publications.

    I suppose the best that can be done if the written exam is revised is to avoid the use of jargon wherever possible such as "bobbling hammers" but leave terms that we actually use and are understood by us such as "wippen", "flange", "hammer butt" and "bird's eye" and leave it to the other languages to translate those terms as they see fit.  If the UK, Australia and South Africa want to use our written exam, they will have to do likewise.



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    William Bremmer
    RPT
    Madison WI
    608-238-8400
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  • 24.  RE: Renolanstift

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-30-2017 15:05
    I could definitely see how the bushings seizing up over time could cause wear to the birdseyes. And since you have 2 moving pieces - the bushing (as the hammer rotates) and the pin (being too loose in the birdseye) the friction is greatly affected.
    Repin this action where needed, and you will transform this piano, which is worth the thousands of dollars you might ask to fix it and regulate it. Although if the hammers are worn enough, maybe the best, most efficient solution is hammer & shank replacement?
    I'm interested to see how this one pans out.