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Puzzler of a lifetime

  • 1.  Puzzler of a lifetime

    Posted 12-21-2017 11:28
    Essex EUP-116, purchased at a university sale 6 years ago, and not tuned since.
    The piano was about 20 cents flat in the bass and midrange, going to about 35 cents flat in the top,
    I raised pitch with Cybertuner Smart Tune mode, noting some lost motion and bobbling in the tenor and treble.
    Having pulled to pitch to the top, I played double octaves from the top down, noticing yes, there was a lot of lost motion and bobbling, and I'd need to do another tuning pass for sure.
    I began cranking up capstans to reduce lost motion.
    What happened next?

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2017 12:17
    You peeled yourself off the ceiling after the piano folded over backwards with a rather loud report.





  • 3.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Posted 12-21-2017 12:24
    Haha, Larry. I was wondering the same thing. That, or the piano reversed and there was no lost motion in tenor/treble, and the bass "needed" the adjustments.

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Posted 12-21-2017 13:36
      |   view attached
    Larry, you got it, except for the part about me on the ceiling. Or the piano falling over.
    The treble plate strut, which supports the keybed, bowed forward and cracked. Not all that loud, more like a screwdriver dropped into the piano; my first reaction was to look for my screwdriver.
    I believe there was a report of this happening in a new Essex or Pearl river piano a few years back, but I can't find it.
    Within 24 hours the owner had word that Steinway will send a replacement. (Essex is warrantied for 10 years.)
    Everyone should read the Journal article about plate failure 
    http://www.ptg.org/userfiles/file/2000-11.pdf
    The photo shows the crack, right above the keybed.
    The customer, by the way, was wonderfully calm about it, just said "I'll go find the warranty."

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Posted 12-21-2017 13:51
    YIKES! 😒😬😧

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2017 14:55
    You certainly nailed that puzzler, Ed.

    Steinway needs to find a new builder for Essex.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2017 21:44
    Interesting how on all the failed vertical plates I've seen, they all fail about in that same place.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Fisher
    Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
    Vancouver WA
    360-256-2999
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Posted 12-21-2017 22:43
    I believe Baldwin Hamilton's have had this problem.
    A nose bolt would help, and in grands there's room to make the strut taller.
    I checked 2 Yamahas and saw they'd made the strut thicker at the keybed.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2017 22:50
    Years ago I did hear of a Washington DC tuner, while doing a pitch raise on a no-name small grand with no beams or shoulder bolts, had the capo d'astro bar break off and fly up toward his head. Urban legend? Perhaps though it was a reliable primary source.

    N. Salmon
    LaVale, MD 21502





  • 10.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2017 02:50
    I was attempting to tune a Kingsbury upright once, where the treble kept going flat after I pulled it up. It had an open pinblock, and I found a crack between two of the sections. I very gingerly let off some of the tension, and then gave the bad news to the owners.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2017 09:35
    Some 25 to 30 years ago, in exchange for a B&B stay, I was going to service this upright piano.  I had a similar experience as Susan.  The evening I arrived, I started my work. As I was tuning the treble, it kept going flat.  I looked inside and saw that the screws holding the harp at the lower end of the frame was not holding.  I lowered the tension on the top couple of octaves, pulled the screw, using shims and super glue, tightened the harp back against the back and left it sit over night.  The next morning, I went back and it tuned up normally.  Wound up being more work than just a "tuning" and the gave me another night's stay.

    ------------------------------
    Ken Gerler, RPT

    Gerler Piano & Organ Service
    Florissant (St. Louis), MO 63033
    kenneth.gerler@prodigy.net
    314-355-2339
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Member
    Posted 12-21-2017 13:57
    Sweet. It would be good to know the years involved and any particular model numbers. Forearmed is forewarned.

    BTW there is an amazing story I came across about some people in Rwanda building pianos and making, yes making, the plate and the keys....

    Anyone interested in reading about it send me a message,,,,

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Posted 12-21-2017 16:01
    So my question is "Why is this not the tuners fault?"
    1. It was fine before he touched it. 
    2. He knew this model has had potential issues.
    3. Went ahead and did a big pitch raise, when he knew piano wasn't serviced for 8 years. 
    Obviously, one could argue in front of a judge, a little more care was called for. 
    Just asking.
    -chris







  • 14.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2017 18:01
    Chris,

    Because any modern piano PROPERLY built should be easily able to handle such stress (and a lot more).

    I believe it was already cracked when he got to it, but the pitch raise made it evident.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Posted 12-21-2017 18:22
    Dear Mr. Chernabieff-

    My questhion is "Why can you not bother to read?"
    Here is the link I posted in my previous message:

    http://www.ptg.org/userfiles/file/2000-11.pdf

    Please read it. Every technician should read it. 
    Based on my report and photo, Steinway agreed to replace the piano immediately.
    Do you really think there is anything odd about a new piano, not serviced in six years since purchase, needing a 20-35 cents pitch raise?

    Again, FYI, please read
    http://www.ptg.org/userfiles/file/2000-11.pdf

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Posted 12-21-2017 19:18
    From the article Ed posted-
    Willard Sims, piano service manager at Baldwin from 1946 to

    1984, wrote on September 17, 1993:
    "The tuning of a piano by an experienced technician
    will not cause the string plate to fail."

    After reading the article, it's clear that even an inexperienced piano tuner would not be able to break the plate with a pitch raise! Strings would begin breaking long before the plate would crack.

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Posted 12-21-2017 19:19
    Ed,
    What's a questhion?

    And I did read the article. It CLEARLY states there are two ways a tuner can crack a plate.

    All kidding aside.................
    It's a great article to keep around. It would be nice if there was actually photos (magnified) of casting flaws(bubbles etc.).
    Thanks for sharing the article Ed.
    -chris
    #caveman

    ------------------------------
    A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
    His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
    The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
    But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Member
    Posted 12-22-2017 09:21
    Ed... thanks for posting that article link . I agree that all techs should read it because sooner or later they will encounter a plate that is cracked or finally gives. From what I know plates are "over-engineered" but that does not mean they can not have flaws in them. I ran into a Haines grand with the same crack in the same place as someone posted. I was working on a huge upright piano and thought I had broken the plate because the piano sounded like a gong . It turned out it was so far flat it was off the SAT III . several pitch raises done over several visits turned it into a piano. It would be good to have a list of makes and models that may be at risk but I am not sure such a thing exists or if manufacturers would release that information. I just got a notice from Bosch about faulty electrical wiring on their dishwashers with an advisory not to use my dishwasher until it is repaired at their expense. Recently I had a bass string explode on a 7 foot Mason AA and it whipped out the tail. I was fortunate I am no one else was in its path. I think we all need to be more aware of some of the hazards and dangers we face and that it is important to check plates and strings more carefully

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2017 10:13
    Aw c'mon Mr. Kelly. That bass string just wanted to go back to Florida and headed South out of the back of the piano with all the vigor it could muster.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2017 10:45
    FWIW, when I have someone help me install new bass strings I'm at the tuning pins and my helper is at the hitch pins.  Initially I put some tension on the string to hold it there.  Then when I'm all through installing the entire set I have my helper get out of the way while I bring them up to tension for this very reason.  The last few sets I've installed I've had the pleasure of having a view of a blue eyed cutie helping me  ......  not that that has much to do with all this.
     
    Early in my career I was struggling with a universal replacement on a dealer's floor and the string took a nasty flight out the end of the grand across the sales floor.  From that point on I made sure nobody was standing anywhere near that end of the piano when I'd tune or pull strings up to tension.
     
    I'd hate to fathom the extent of an injury should something like that make bodily contact.
     
    Lar
     
    3 more days to go and we all get another break from xmas music.





  • 21.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2017 12:11
    My brother was playing my church's grand last year while I was at a Christmas party. They'd balked at having it tuned for the past two years, and it received very heavy usage. F1 finally popped on my brother. Thankful no one else was around. The pastor was fine with replacing it, and even had me tune it afterwards. However, the main pianist was hysterical. And she blamed me! I quote: "for not knowing how to handle a piano properly." And I wasn't even in the building at the time!

    Yea, that put a damper on our relationship (no pun intended). 

    However, my brother's nerves were shaken, and he played quietly for the next several months. But I'm thankful the string broke during his practice, not during the service the next morning. If that had happened, I think a bloody mess would have been the least of their problems.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2017 16:09
    When installing a universal bass string in a grand, I put a pair of vise-grips in the hitch pin over the loop of the string.  That way the string can not fly out of the piano if it decides to break, AND the string stays on the hitch pin while I am preparing it for installation.


    ------------------------------
    Ken Gerler, RPT

    Gerler Piano & Organ Service
    Florissant (St. Louis), MO 63033
    kenneth.gerler@prodigy.net
    314-355-2339
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2017 15:32
    Ah, yes, certain instruments I call "ingrates."

    I was tuning a Hamilton upright in a high school gym (actually in a horrid little closet space with a bare bulb, just off a gym where basketball practice was going on.) It was a minor pitch raise. I was up in octave five when there was a sharp noise and I felt a sting an inch above my left eye. One of the long tenor strings had broken at the tuning pin hole and this ungrateful piano had thrown the becket at me. And I wasn't wearing glasses.

    This piano did have one other interesting aspect. Most of the bass section sounded like a kazoo. Someone had woven a purple mimeographed map of the world through the bass strings.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Posted 12-22-2017 16:11
    That must have made for some interesting tuning...

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2017 18:24
    Hi, Jon

    <grin> I prevailed. I even took the map home. I was young, I was nearly broke. This kind of thing was easier.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Posted 12-23-2017 00:43
    My experience with breaking bass strings has been that for the most part they stay put, in grands. Between the agraffe and the damper most of the chance to go flying is absorbed! I did have a friend who was chipping a set to pitch, OK, a little above pitch when one went flying and embedded itself rather deeply in the drywall! I also use the vice grip trick, not ON the string just above it on the hitch pin which prevents it coming off or flying if it comes to that. In those instances where the concern is not marring the paint on the pin I find a small patch of leather or self adhesive felt serves well.

    ------------------------------
    Michael Magness
    West Salem WI
    608-786-4404
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-23-2017 17:47
    I've had a bass string break while being tuned. Shot out of the (grand) piano and put a substantial hole in a hollow core door several feet away. I shudder to think what that would have done to someone's face or torso, were they to be positioned in the flight path of a wound string suddenly seeking it's freedom.

    As for keeping them on the hitch pin while while stringing, a small spring clamp (with heat-shrunk plastic pads on the jaws) works well, as do pieces of appropriately sized tubing slipped over the hitch.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Posted 12-23-2017 18:10
    I did a video a few years back, in which we were on purpose, trying to see how far a bass string would go. The strings were under full tension. It was an upright, and the bottom was removed. The strings on average would shoot about 20 feet, some went farther.  If i recall, the upper bichords went the farthest.

    However, in a grand with the cabinet in the way, i fail to see how they would go far. Just put dents in the cabinet and bounce a little perhaps.
    Obviously, removing tension and placing a clamp on the hitchpin is a good safety factor.
    -chris


    ------------------------------
    A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
    His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
    The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
    But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-23-2017 20:01
    For a string in a grand to go flying, it also depends on how the plate struts are formulated. On a Steinway A, B, and M (the Steinways I have experience with), the plate has enough intersecting struts to stop a string from going on vacation. On other brands and models, such as my church's baby grand (see story above), the plate struts are all parallel to the strings - thus they don't keep them from leaving the piano at high speeds.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-23-2017 18:20
    I remember rehearsing a Bartok piano concerto at Oberlin (I was in the cello section) when one of the big low strings went. No one was hurt, and I don't remember it shooting across the room, but it sounded like I imagined a pistol shot would sound.

    It might be sensible while installing one of the big low bass strings, to put a little bit of tension on it, and then to close the lid before pulling it to pitch. Not that it would do the interior of the rim any good, either, that would be better than sending a wire missile across the room at speed.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-24-2017 01:48
    A customer's 3 year old, 9' Bosendorfer broke a low Bb during a tuning a few years ago, quite unexpectedly.  I suspect that these are under quite a bit of tension, probably quite close to breaking.  It usually leaves a mark in the wall of the rim.

    I won't let customers stand behind pianos, especially while tuning the bass as I have seen quite enough flying bass strings to distrust them.  I have had a few fly across stages.

    There is an old story that I though was from my grandfather (but these things migrate around in our minds) of a customer with two Chinese vases on a mantle piece.  A bass string breaks and shatters one vase.  The tuner apologizees profusely and the customer reassures him that the vase wasn't expensive.  Soon another string breaks and shatters the second vase.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-24-2017 06:36
    Blaine,

    Bosendorfer scales are at a higher break-percentage than most pianos, especially in the bass. I hope you did not try to splice that Bb 0. I have yet to hear of anyone successfully splicing a wound string on a Bosendorfer and having the splice survive being brought up to pitch. Interestingly, this seems to have come as news to Bosendorfer service staff.

    Bosendorfer DOES have a distinct sound to their bass strings, and maybe this is one of the reasons why.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Posted 12-24-2017 09:36
    I successfully spliced a Boesendorfer bass string three times. Successful. beautiful splice until the last pull up to pitch. It broke each time.
    A blanket over the case prevented damage.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-25-2017 12:02
    I have had two instances of a bass string breaking at the tuning pin and flying out of a grand piano, for quite some distance.  This has led to the habit of always closing the lid while tuning the bass, unless I am on an empty stage.  I have often wondered about the potential danger to duo pianists who play their pianos in a nested position.  Each would seem to be in the line of fire for a broken bass string flying out of the piano, but I have never heard of such an accident actually happening.
    Claude Harding







  • 35.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-26-2017 00:57
    If the bass string tails were properly braided (double braided with
    stringing ribbon) then a breaking bass string would not be able to fly
    out of the piano.




  • 36.  RE: Puzzler of a lifetime

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-26-2017 09:12
    Good point. Which may in fact be part of the idea behind the braid.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------