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Ethics of using SmartTune

  • 1.  Ethics of using SmartTune

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-27-2017 12:21
    Hello All,

    Following a suggestion, I want to start a different thread on using SmartTune mode (CyberTuner) for pitch adjustments. A little background first.

    In my area, pianos very rarely move more than 4 cents either way. In about a year, they end up at about -2 cents or so. That's really mild, especially compared to other places where the pitch swings wildly.

    So for a piano that's -20 cents, it's most likely not been tuned in about 10 years. Most clients expect that their piano needs a little extra work, and they're fine with paying extra for a pitch raise.

    Also, I have three tooners that I follow up on a regular basis, and they don't tune octave 7 or below half of octave 1. Don't know why, but those sections NEED major pitch adjustments most of the time. (So yes, I do two passes.)

    Notice that I'm only talking about first time clients here who haven't had the piano tuned in over 4 years. If someone had their piano tuned last year, then 99% of the time it won't need a pitch raise.

    Just humor me on this next point: how far off does it have to be before you'd do a pitch raise, regardless of if you charge for it or not?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Ethics of using SmartTune

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-27-2017 13:49
    The fact that those who accused me of being "blatantly unethical" are unwilling to acknowledge my defense says a lot about their own character. Fine. I'll answer my own question.

    Most technicians I talk to say they'd do a pitch raise if it's more than 8 to 10 cents off. So if a client has a piano that's -16 cents, I guarantee that every technician in my area will charge them for a pitch raise. Why shouldn't I? Just because I can do it in less time, using modern technology, than they can doesn't make it unethical. Besides, you all are missing a big piece of the puzzle.

    Go to my website, look at the page entitled "Services." I use the "full service" method. The Pianist is my basic service packet, followed by the Maestro Service Packet. The Maestro includes piano tuning, light cleaning, and minor repairs (like the Pianist), but also includes one hour of pitch adjustment or regulation. So if I am going to charge them the higher price because their piano needs a pitch correction, but I can do it in less time than a given technician, why wouldn't I do some regulation in place of the extra time spent on the pitch correction? Chances are the piano needs it anyway. But if I get there and the piano is way off, say -62 cents, then I'd have to make the "primer pass" just like in the traditional way. In which case I cut down on the regulation time and allot whatever's left over from the pitch adjustment to time for regulation.

    To be honest, the fact that I was accused of being "blatantly unethical" is more than a bit concerning. Without knowing all the facts of how I structured my business, I was accused simply because my method disagreed with the traditional style of doing things. Yes, I'm different, but I'm fine with that. If you've structured your business differently, then fine, I probably won't agree with you, but that doesn't necessarily make you unethical.

    Over and over I've recieved private emails stating that "I don't get on the web because there's too many know-it-all's." One of the recurring themes on PTG-L is that we're losing members. With a trigger happy attitude like that, does anyone wonder why?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Ethics of using SmartTune

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-27-2017 14:17
    It is unethical to charge for something you don't do. If you have raised the pitch, you are not being unethical. If I charge $360 for replacing bridle tapes and you charge $20, am I being unethical or just being compensated for my skill, training, and experience?

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Ethics of using SmartTune

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-27-2017 14:21
    Benjamin,

    I would not worry in the least about what someone said.  You have explained yourself well but even that was unnecessary.  What you charge and how you structure your fees is your right and your own business and no one else's.  It could even be a restraint of trade infraction for someone to criticize your fees.  That, in my opinion would be the matter of concern.

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    William Bremmer
    RPT
    Madison WI
    608-238-8400
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Ethics of using SmartTune

    Posted 12-27-2017 14:47
    I believe the offensive message has been removed.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Ethics of using SmartTune

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-27-2017 15:54
    Not wishing to "cast any dispersions" on the subject of ethics, but the rule of thumb I use is this: if a customer found out exactly what the usual practice is, and what I've been doing instead, would I be embarrassed?

    This "labor-saving" issue is a touchy one. I remember the first convention I went to. I was in a voicing class. Someone had worked out a way to do something related to voicing very quickly -- I forget what. And everybody was laughing with glee when it was suggested that it was possible to do the work which usually took three hours in a quarter of the time --- but charge the same.

    I was totally disgusted.

    The point for me is this: the usual rate is determined by combining the time required and the difficulty of doing the work. So if the time required and the difficulty are reduced, the fee should also be reduced. You are paid for your time and effort. If something (such as fragility of old parts), makes the time and effort required greater, you charge more, don't you?

    Being semi-retired, where the hourly wage isn't of such immediate importance, I thought over the "explain the pitch-raise and charge for it" question. I always disliked doing this, since I had to explain to a customer that they would have to pay more than I had quoted. For most, it didn't matter, but for a few who had really struggled to come up with a tuning fee, it was really bad. So, I thought, "when I am old I shall wear purple" and I just took "pitch raise" out of my pricing lexicon. When I meet a piano 100 cents or more low, where tuning it to itself wouldn't work (if it were new enough to take the pitch raise, and especially if someone wanted to play it with other instruments) I just tuck in and go for it. Then I always explain that it will need another tuning to get stable (I suggest six months, or sooner if they are bothered by it), and I leave it up to them whether or not they want to do that. Then, as they exclaim over the time and effort expended, I tell them that the first visit they are getting a real deal, but when I come back and spend 1/3 the time and effort, they will still pay the same amount. And we grin and laugh.

    And life is good ... the kind of people who scrimp and save and worry how to feed their children won't call me back later, but they get a little dose of pro bono, without knowing it.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Ethics of using SmartTune

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-27-2017 16:24
    I beg to disagree, I am paid for results. I am not an hourly wage earner. I'm reminded of a story of a man (of course) who was shocked at what his dentist wanted to charge for extracting a tooth and how short a time it was. The dentist replied, if the cost per minute is what concerns you, I can take as long as you want.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Ethics of using SmartTune

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-27-2017 16:40
    Funny dental story, Larry.

    For a dentist, you are paying for an extremely long and costly training process, and a huge cost for maintaining an office and hiring other people - also for liability, and for ongoing training. Not to mention for having a man standing there all day with his hands in someone else's mouth. And no dental extraction is easy.

    In our example, we were talking about a process made easy and quick, while charging as if it were still hard and time-consuming.

    Not on, in my book, but each of us makes our own ethical decisions.

    Yesterday I worked a miracle cure on the bottom octave of a fun old 1910 6 foot Chickering, where most notes were over a whole tone flat. One minute with a CA bottle (a few drops onto every tuning pin where it entered the pinblock) and it tuned up perfectly. Should I have charged the same as I used to for the horrid old glycerin-and-alcohol treatment, including the week of waiting, the clean-up, and then the gingerly retuning?

    I charged nothing extra. One minute of time is so little that it fits into the "do little things" allowance I leave in my normal tuning fee.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Ethics of using SmartTune

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-27-2017 17:20
    I still say I'm paid for results. My employer (clients) has to pay for my continuing education and improvements in my skills. As well as vacation, sick leave, and retirement. I don't feel like I overcharge. If I did I would not be comfortable when my head hits the pillow.  I think it was in W. Dean Howell's book Professional Piano Tuning he mentioned concerning pricing that a tuning should be as much as a good pair of men's dress shoes. I'm presently charging half that and at that I'm the highest price in my area. This profession is a skill, talent, education and hard work. I'm not ashamed of asking what I do and welcome others to go elsewhere if they want cheaper.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Ethics of using SmartTune

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-27-2017 17:58
    I certainly am not intending to tell you that you overcharge, Larry.

    I'm simply sharing my thoughts on how to figure out time versus pay when someone works out a very fast easy way to do something, not to say what pay per hour should be.

    Okay, theorize with me: If you found a way to tune a piano acceptably in five minutes, would you charge the same as you do for an hour tuning? Even if the way didn't require any new tools or expenses? That is, if you find a real windfall in ease and quickness of doing some particular task, do you share at least part of the profit with your customer? If not, why not?

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Ethics of using SmartTune

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-27-2017 18:26
    Larry, Bill, Ed,

    Thank you for your comments here. Now that I've had time to cool down, I want to apologize for reacting in anger. It doesn't happen near as much as it used to, but occasionally comes out. Having someone call me dishonorable is one of those things that will push me over the edge.

    Susan,

    I totally see your point and agree with the principle, howbeit not the practicality. Pull this string all the way, and you'll come to this conclusion. Beginners with zero experience should be charging the most. After all, they spend the longest on one piano (record is 16 hours I think), and then they have to come back and fix it again and again. That means those of us who can tune within one hour should be charging 1 / 16 of what a complete novice charges. Yea, not working for me. 

    Aside from that, it goes back to what Bill said about price setting.

    As I stated before, I charge by the job, not the hour. Six months ago when it took me 2 1/2 hours to tune a piano, I charged the same as what I do now. Now I make way more per hour, and the quality of my work has improved. Should I charge less now? I think not. Why? The quality of my work has improved, and less of my clients time is taken, less of my time is taken, which means I have left over time to fully service the piano.

    Quoting a recent story I read, should a lawyer spend an hour and a half on a case if he can win it in one hour? Assuming he charges by the case, he'd want to do it in as little time as possible. If he charges by the hour (as most lawyers do), he's going to spend as much time on that case as possible.

    Thats why I'm not a clock watcher. As Larry said, I charge by results, regardless of how long it takes to get them.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Ethics of using SmartTune

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-27-2017 18:57
    Benjamin, I agree that being a beginner is a special case. Spending extra time when one has not yet built up a skill is just a price of learning the trade. There's also the matter of "what the market will bear." That is, by being too greedy one can get priced out of the market. And then the opposite can also be true, as people have noted over and over again, "I raised my prices and got more work" just from the psychology of customers.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Ethics of using SmartTune

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-27-2017 19:30
    Susan, I think you and I have taken over much of Benjamin's thread.  

    I  am a little schizophrenic, I say I am not an hourly worker, yet I do set my price for regular service on the estimated 75 to 90 minutes I plan on spending on each scheduled piano service appointment.  If I find that the piano is in great tune and only need to spend 30 minutes, do I charge less and leave early and cut into my expected income? Or, do I spend the rest of that appointment time improving other aspects of the piano? 

    There is nothing unethical about charging any amount I want for the work that I do.  What is unethical is charging for work I don't do.  If I can do a 20 cent pitch raise and fine tune in 1 hour, what is wrong with charging for the pitch raise since I did do it?  I much prefer the idea of a service call price and then I can perform whatever service is most needed in that time block.

    I do appreciate all you write on this and on other threads, you are a deep and thoughtful thinker and express yourself well.  Wish I could say the same for myself.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Ethics of using SmartTune

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-27-2017 19:51
    Hi, Larry

    One form of pro bono which I occasionally do if the situation warrants is that even if customers are struggling financially, I ask the regular tuning fee; but then I do a ton of other work without charge, which their pianos often need.

    Maybe once every couple of years I am called to tune a piano which is so close that fixing 10 or 15 notes is all it needs. I charge a service call, but I do explain to the owner that this situation cannot be expected to happen time after time. My feeling is that life is too short to spend it tuning pianos which are already in tune, so if I find one like that, I give it what it needs instead of going through the motions of a full tuning.

    I suppose the question of whether to cut one's income by charging a service call instead of using the freed up time to improve other parts of the piano would depend on whether the piano would be improved by the other attention. I often have done work allocation like that -- the tuning is not the most needy part of the instrument, so I spend the time on something else, and give the tuning a lick and a promise.

    My fee is set to include some leeway for the other niceties -- minor cleaning, replacing rubber buttons, regulating a few bobbling notes, fixing pedal noises (if not too elaborate, like needing to take a pedal lyre off), and so on. I hate "nickel and dimeing" people. I also hate the idea of asking for a small additional fee to do some of this stuff and getting turned down. So I just set my main fee high enough that I can go ahead without asking.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Ethics of using SmartTune

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-27-2017 20:44
    For whatever it's worth;
      This discussion and the thread it grew out of high light perfectly the reasons that I charge for a service call and not a specified procedure. When I started thirty odd (some would say very odd) years ago I was sent out with the model of charging a tiny up front fee for tuning but I was expected to up sell each client with an extra $5 for this and an extra $7 for that, hopefully doubling the total cost before I was done. Words cannot describe how much I hated that business model. Still do. Starting twenty years ago I began to sell a service call which covers whatever I can do in the course of a 1-3 hr appointment. The price is high relative to others in my market but I still manage to work a 7 day schedule and refer the work I can't get to to other technicians in the area. People really like knowing what the real price is ahead of time. People really don't like feeling like victims of a bait and switch. Using this model I never have to negotiate regarding a pitch raise, interior cleaning, sticking keys etc. etc.. I didn't come up with this on my own, it was suggested to me back in 1984 by LaRoy Edwards. Just wish I'd have taken his advice earlier. Too soon old, too late smart.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Ethics of using SmartTune

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-27-2017 22:11
    Back in the 1970s I got really tired of making this decision -- and then confronting the customer with the notion that I had to raise my price to actually tune their piano to what has become known as "standard pitch." Some tuners have no problem with this and I say, "More power to them!" It was a personality thing. I just felt really uncomfortable doing it even though it could be fully justified. 

    My solution was to change my pricing structure. I figured out what I wanted (could) make per hour and set my "tuning" charge at 2 1/2 times that amount. This included two hours of my time (plus a half-hour transit between calls). I explained that my charge entitled their piano to two hours of my time. How this two hours got divided up depended on the piano. In some (really horrible) cases I might spend the whole two hours tuning. Rare, but it happened. In other cases I'd be adjusting pedals or touching up lost motion or whatever. 

    What you charge for your services, it seems to me, is a personal affair. If you undercharge you will be poor and you will work long hours for very little compensation and will grow to hate your profession. Or you will end up doing shoddy work so you can get to more customers per day so you can eke out a living. If you charge too much you will end up with no customers and a lot of time on your hands. 

    When I made this transition the average charge (in my area) for a "tuning" was about $40. I charged $75 for a "piano service" call. I lost some customers. But I ended up working fewer hours, making more money and enjoying my work a whole lot more. And I ended up with a very loyal core group of customers whose pianos I enjoyed working on.  

    --
    Delwin D Fandrich
    Fandrich Piano Company, Inc.
    Piano Design and Manufacturing Consulting Services -- Worldwide
    6939 Foothill Ct SW -- Olympia, WA 98512 -- USA
    Phone 360.515.0119 -- Mobile 360.388.6525





  • 17.  RE: Ethics of using SmartTune

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-28-2017 01:23

    My system is much like Del's and it removes this particular ambiguity.  The time allocated for a basic service call is enough to include a pitch correction if needed.  If the tuning goes faster then I do other things--and there's always something to do.  There are times when I come to pianos that, say, have DCs installed and are rock solid and I'm through tuning the piano in 20 minutes.  If the piano is really a pitch disaster or it really needs other work to get things functional and the appointment extends beyond the basic service call time then I charge extra based on time spent.  I don't know how you get away from the hourly thing completely.  Regulation?  Well, you can touch up a regulation in an hour or take 8 hours if everything is off.  Voicing?  Maybe you can go through and smooth things out in 15 minutes if everything is in order but if you have to go through a prevoicing routine you could be there for hours.  So flat rating things doesn't make much sense to me for the most part.  Maybe in a rebuilding job when you are just doing everything anyway.  So I don't have a "pitch correction" fee, as such.  I think it gets awkward.  

    It does remind me of the first piano I ever "tried" to tune that someone was willing to pay me for.  It took me a day and a half and it probably sounded horrible when I was done.  And no, I didn't charge them for 12 hours.  Did I miss an opportunity? 



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------