Benjamin,
I believe I covered the reasons why Ragtime music is often associated with a poorly tuned piano. It is not that the composer envisioned it that way, it is the reality of when and where that music was often played that has given the general public a certain impression.
Hollywood likes to feed the general public's impressions rather than make an attempt to dispel them. The piano in a film such as Tombstone, for example is really just a prop. If you have ever seen the film which I believe was called, "The Piano", it featured a square grand that had been left out on the beach (which would have ruined it right there). Then, it was hauled up a muddy hill. It even shows a brief scene with a piano tuner.
But the music which supposedly flowed from that instrument was modern day, New Age type music. The music itself was an anachronism. The sound was not that of a square grand but a modern grand piano. It is a tale of fiction, so they simply fed the general public's impression of what kind of sound the music would have rather than trying to create the true sound of a square grand, water or high moisture damaged or not.
There are plenty of other examples of that. There was a Beethoven film, "My Forever Beloved" or something like that. The sound of Beethoven's piano was that of a modern piano, not the kind that he would have had. There were other impression feeding scenes in the film. Soldiers in the Napoleonic wars raping women showed a soldier "giving her the old in and out" (a line from "A Clockwork Orange") and at least two scenes where a woman managed to expose her breasts to Beethoven. A more documentary type film was not what they were going for, obviously.
In Amadeus, they tried to portray the sound of a piano of that era by using a tinny sounding modern piano tuned in Reverse Well. Again, it was not meant to be a documentary so they did a lot of general public impression feeding. The interaction between Mozart and Salieri was most likely not what really happened but it made for a great movie.
So, when ever you see any 19th Century Western type film and there is a scene in a saloon with someone playing Ragtime music on a piano, they are virtually ALWAYS going to have the piano have that particular out of tune sound. It would seem out of place if they didn't.
That is why, in The Godfather, a film about murderous gangsters, the props department most likely searched for an old and long unserviced upright piano. They searched for a piano that had the kind of sound that they wanted and did nothing to change it.
It is also well known that when John Lennon recorded the song, "Imagine", there was a fine grand available but a far less well prepared Steinway upright was chosen for the particular sound it had.
I have searched many times for a You Tube clip from "Chinatown" (Jack Nicholson) where the lead character visits a senior care home. The piano is not seen but you hear someone playing it in the background. Nobody ever put that particular scene on You Tube, however. I noticed it immediately when I first saw the film and anytime I have seen it since. (It is one of the all time great film noir genre films). It sounded like a poorly tuned spinet, the very kind that would likely be in such a place.
On the other hand, any number of CD's can be found of Scott Joplin, Gershwin and other composers of that type of music from that era on very good and well prepared pianos. I don't know of any that have been produced on an out of tune, old upright.
------------------------------
William Bremmer
RPT
Madison WI
608-238-8400
------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 09-30-2017 19:33
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos
Today I heard a 1902 recording of Scott Joplin playing his "The Entertainer."
Although I've heard this piece recorded multiple times, half of them on an out of tune piano, the original recording by Scott Joplin was on a nicely tuned piano, although I think it was to A435. I hold to my original thesis that professional musicians that could afford it wanted their pianos in tune. Where the idea that ragtime pianos should be out of tune comes from I have no idea.
------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net
Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 18:05
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos
An afterthought on my earlier post:
While we all know ragtime as associated with honky tonk style of out of tuneness, I do remember seeing a photo a while back of Scott Joplin (in a three piece suit) playing a Steinway grand, probably an A. My guess that piano was fully serviced before the performance. Good 'O Scott didn't look like he was a drunk monkey in a saloon; he looked like a respectable musician from yesteryear.
Its amazing how much Hollywood affects our thought process, isn't it?
------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net
Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 17:45
From: William Bremmer
Subject: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos
The recording and performance industry standards of today are far higher than they were 50-70 years ago. When I was a young man in the late 60's and early 70's, I enjoyed many Jazz albums that are indeed iconic but no recording company would allow that today. Even Pop music has changed. Jerry Lee Lewis, for example recorded some of his greatest hits on what would never be allowed today. The Nashville Country Music industry is equally particular. Classical music generally fared better earlier on but not always, as in the example Ed submitted. None of that would ever be allowed today.
The Pop Music industry has actually taken things too far, in my opinion. Nearly any Pop song you may hear today has the vocals subjected to pitch correction software. It takes any pitch that a singer produces and "corrects" it to a theoretical pitch. If a singer slides from one note to the next, it artificially divides that slide into "perfect" and theoretical half steps, all the while producing a characteristic distortion. While it may help certain vocalists, it produces a characteristic sound that I find truly annoying to hear. It removes virtually all of the bending of pitch that gives some "soul" to a singer's voice. For example, can you imagine what Billie Holiday's recordings would sound like if they were subjected to pitch correction software? I'd love it if someone actually did that to demonstrate how destructive it really is.
Then, there is the concept of the "Honky Tonk" piano sound. In the early part of the 20th Century, the "Ragtime" type music of Scott Joplin but also of many other composers, notably, George Gershwin, was popular. It was the era of what we think of as the "old upright" piano today, except that the instruments were new at that time.
They were built in the East, tuned at the factory and then transported out West. The rail service may have ended at Kansas City but even if it went further West, at some point, the piano had to be put on a wagon and transported to a newly founded town such as the iconic, Tombstone, Arizona. (But really, all over the West). Installed in a saloon, the piano was played heavily, night after night, for many hours. In a much drier climate, the pitch of the piano fell and unevenly so, unisons deteriorated, the action screws loosened, lost motion developed and the hammers quickly became deeply grooved.
Here is the scene from "Tombstone" that makes me think of what I am talking about. (I actually think that the piano was purposefully detuned to create this scene!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAKb0nITW_4
Yet, the piano continued to be played, night after night in such a condition. (A piano can be heard in other scenes of the film, "Tombstone") If there ever was anyone, anyone at all who could service the piano in any way, it would have been few and far between. Whatever could have been done at that time would not likely been the equivalent of what today's piano technician is known and expected to do.
I also remember a scene in the film, "The Godfather" where an old, out of tune, piano was played but this time, I think that the props department for the film went out and searched for a piano that sounded just like the way they had in mind with no modifications being necessary:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=piano+scene+in+the+film+Godfather&view=detail&mid=F449EB733121A4C0980FF449EB733121A4C0980F&FORM=VIRE
Therefore, the music of that time became associated with the sound of a very poorly tuned and serviced piano. It was not meant to be but very clearly, it was. Most of the music enjoyed from player pianos anywhere, suffered the same indignation. It was often a "jerky" kind of music anyway, considering the apparatus that there was to play it. The sound of an out of tune and otherwise poorly serviced piano became associated with the very kind of music that was to be played upon the piano.
I have heard, recently, such music played upon a superbly tuned and serviced piano. Somehow, the piano just sounded "too good". Too clear, too even, too everything that we think of today as being proper. I experienced the same thing back in the 80's when I would tune a piano for a traveling band. I tuned it "too good!", some techies told me. Of course, it was all well received but I do remember that. It was not unlike the pitch correction software lament that I have today. The piano actually sounded too pure and in tune for what was expected from it.
The moral of the story is that we need to apply today's standards to what we do. We all need to tune the best that we can either aurally or electronically and we need to service the pianos otherwise, keep them clean and dignified and properly playable. That is our business today.
------------------------------
William Bremmer
RPT
Madison WI
608-238-8400
Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 09:21
From: James Frazee
Subject: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos
Peter,
Try listening to Dave Frank, a student of Lenny's. Great player, great teacher (online as well) and an all around crazy, funny guy.
Original Message------
In jazz you're generally playing anywhere from 4-10 notes per second. Not much time for the average listening ear to evaluate the tuning. Ballads are a different story though. Nonetheless I agree that the tuning should be better.
I didn't realize till now that Lennie T. was blind. Had never seen him perform, only heard recordings. As I watched I said to myself: "He's playing like a blind guy". Then I looked it up. He could play unbelievable bass lines.
Pwg
------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------