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Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

  • 1.  Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Posted 09-19-2017 21:00
    So, I've been thinking about this. There are some really iconic songs that were done with out of tune pianos. At least that's what I'm hearing. Here's a couple of examples:

    Linus & Lucy

    Mandy

    So, what's up with these piano tunings? How could something like this pass in studio work? Was it a different time when an in tune piano just wasn't a priority? But then, the sound of these pianos is now iconic. I can't stand to hear Linus & Lucy on an in tune piano!

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    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
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  • 2.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Posted 09-19-2017 21:33
    Keith Jarrett is credited for being the first difficult jazz/pop pianist to work with:

    "Jarrett is 'proud to be difficult.' He is given to stomping off the stage if people crinkle the cellophane of their cough drops, and he will yell at individual audience members. Jarrett once went all the way to South America and then refused to play because the promoters had ignored his specifications for the piano. 'I was one of the earliest jazz pianists to request and demand acceptable pianos,' he says unapologetically. 'Everyone hated me, but we raised standards a little bit.' Raising standards -- both of what is given and of what is demanded -- is Jarrett's stock in trade. Being hated is also part of his stock in trade; though he can be very generous, few have ever said that he is a pleasant man."

    The Jazz Martyr
    Nytimes remove preview
    The Jazz Martyr
    Profile of jazz musician Keith Jarrett, who is attracting a new audience, thanks to his classical recordings; says Jarrett has become purist critic of what he sees as a degenrate new jazz; holds Jarrett now plays on three modes: the solo concerts; variations on standard tunes and interpretations of Bach, Mozart, Handel and Shostakovich; Jarrett comments; photos (L)
    View this on Nytimes >

    Maybe Vince Guaraldi and Barry Manilow just didn't feel entitled to be fastidious? Legends before their time?




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    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
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  • 3.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Posted 09-19-2017 21:51
    E.g, a concert I was left wishing a legend refused to play due to the condition of the piano...

    Lennie Tristano - Solo Piano
    YouTube remove preview
    Lennie Tristano - Solo Piano
    Lennie Tristano - Solo Piano
    View this on YouTube >


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    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
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  • 4.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Posted 09-19-2017 22:06
    This time, Bud Powell is the victim. Another piano tuning prep bomb from Copenhagen...

    Bud Powell - Anthropology (1962)
    YouTube remove preview
    Bud Powell - Anthropology (1962)
    Bud Powell - piano Niels-Henning Orsted Pedersen - bass Jorn Elniff - drums Live from Café Montmartre, Copenhagen, early 1962
    View this on YouTube >


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    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
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  • 5.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-19-2017 22:48
    Benjamin --

    Thank you for this. I have been looking for examples like this. First time I heard a piece like this on the radio I was initially shocked at how badly out of tune the piano was. But it only took me about 30 seconds to put that out of my mind because, I mean, just LISTEN to what Powell had to say in this recording! The piano being out of tune hurts NOT the performance. And if all anyone can hear, as an audience member, is the piano being out of tune then they should go home. If you're listening to the instrument then you're not listening to the performance. Yes, the piano is being used in the performance, but it is not the performance. The artist and the music is the performance. Powell, and his band, obviously had something to say to an appreciative audience that evening and damned if they were going to let the piano get in the way. It was probably a great evening.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 6.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-19-2017 23:04
    Yes, the playing is great. Still, I can't help thinking that for me the evening would have been much greater if the piano had been in tune, people had not been idly chattering in the background, and the place hadn't been all fumed up with tobacco.

    The musicians are so used to these drawbacks that they may not even consider them. Now with the Linus and Lucy, the out of tune piano is part of the deal, a stylistic feature ... but jazz sounds very good when the piano is in tune.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 7.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2017 07:50
    Recently I was listening to Billy Joel's "Scenes from an Italian  restaurant" and was noticing some funkiness during the piano solo. Vince Guaraldi seemed to be a frequent visitor at studios that hadn't called a tuner in a while but I'd still rather listen to "Cast your fate to the wind" than most recordings done on well serviced instruments. Some of Erroll Garner's recording are are on pianos so badly out that I can't listen to them. And I'm not even that sensitive.

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    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
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  • 8.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2017 01:16
    Sadly, the piano is badly out of tune on several recordings of Bill Evans solo works. That one really hurts.

    David Trasoff
    Professional Piano Service




  • 9.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2017 08:05
    I've noticed that jazz musicians, in general, seem to have a higher tolerance to pianos being out of tune than classical musicians. When you see a lot of the pianos that musicians have been stuck with in lounges, country clubs, etc, I guess it's not that surprising. Not that they don't hear it, but hey, as long as most of the keys work...
    Listen to some recordings of Thelonius Monk for example. Some of them sound like lounge pianos. Then again, maybe they were.

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    Gerry Johnston
    Haverhill, MA
    gj@gjpianotuner.com
    www.gjpianotuner.com
    (978) 372-2250
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  • 10.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2017 09:11
    It isn't that jazz musicians were "used to it." It was (and in some cases is) that management didn't give a damn. My older brother Bob tells the tale of the time ( many decades ago) when he castigated Sandy Berman of Sandy's Jazz Club in Beverley MA about how badly out of tune the piano was during a performance. Sandy went ballistic. Of course we all know of cases where the piano may have "just been tuned" but management doesn't want to hear about the need for "basic maintenance" (pin block, soundboard shot, etc.).

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    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
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  • 11.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Posted 09-20-2017 09:24
    Y'all are acting like tuning is a necessity. It's not, it's a luxury. An out of tune piano can add charm to a composition or performance. Just watch any Western. Who cares if Linus and Lucy is out of tune. It's a GREAT recording! But, I know a "tuner" will disagree, because of the need to feel important in other people's lives. I appreciate that.





  • 12.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2017 11:18
    Chris --

    Thank you. I was beginning to think I was all alone here.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 13.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2017 13:13
    Being jazz oriented, love Keith Jarrett, Bill Evans and Bud Powell. If you want to hear out of tuneness, check out Crazy Otto on utube. He had a certain way two of the three string unisons were tuned.

    Gary Doudna RPT
    Registered PianoTechnician
    doudna440@gmail.com
    920-839-5007




  • 14.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Posted 09-20-2017 13:50

    Y'all are acting like tuning is a necessity. It's not, it's a luxury. An out of tune piano can add charm to a composition or performance. Just watch any Western. Who cares if Linus and Lucy is out of tune. It's a GREAT recording! But, I know a "tuner" will disagree, because of the need to feel important in other people's lives. I appreciate that.
    Chris Chernobieff,  09-20-2017 09:24
    Yes, I agree. I just think it's ironic that such popular songs, as the ones I posted, feature out of tune pianos and I like it that way. What's wrong with me? ;-)

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    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2017 17:03
    Jazz pianists aren't the only ones. Ragtime players at least tolerate an out of tune piano, some prefer it, claiming it's more authentic.

    For whatever reason, lots of the ragtime I listen to is recorded on a piano that sounds terrible. But, I tolerate it, even though I prefer a completely in tune piano for any style of music I play. Although I admit, it does add something to the performance, something that says "Yea, I'm famous in a saloon that existed over a hundred years ago. Enjoy your history, and don't forget it!"

    With that being said, should we as piano tuners advocate for out of tuneness for certain styles of music?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2017 17:11
    Ben,
    Now I know why so many people have their pianos tuned every ten years.
    Roger

    Virus-free. www.avast.com





  • 17.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-24-2017 21:19
    Today's jazz pianists, at least many of them, have very high tuning standards. This may come partly from what is happening in NYC, where a few of the big clubs have their pianos tuned at least every week if not more (probably true in other parts of the country as well). I know that the big acts that come through Albuquerque (and we have a top notch jazz venue, so we do get the very biggest and best) have pretty high standards. I've had a couple who insisted that the tuner (me) be there after sound check. And what they did was to play each unison carefully and listen. I suppose George Winston helped pioneer that attitude.

    It's a practical thing. If none of the pianos you have ever played was well-tuned, you probably don't notice much - especially since the piano probably also needs a lot of other service. And the hassle of getting the folks in charge (at clubs, venues, and recording studios) to shell out for tuning may not be worth the trouble.

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    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
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  • 18.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2017 08:08
    On the Charlie Brown Christmas album, "My Little Drum" is even worse out of tune than "Linus And Lucy."  The debut of Bill Evans's "Waltz For Debby" (on New Jazz Conceptions) was marred by jangly unisons; years ago I had this recording as background music on my answering machine, until my wife pointed out that the sound of that tuning probably didn't inspire a lot of confidence in potential new clients.

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    Kent Burnside, RPT
    Franklin TN
    615.430.0653
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  • 19.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2017 08:49
    In jazz you're generally playing anywhere from 4-10 notes per second. Not much time for the average listening ear to evaluate the tuning. Ballads are a different story though. Nonetheless I agree that the tuning should be better. 

    I didn't realize till now that Lennie T. was blind. Had never seen him perform, only heard recordings.  As I watched I said to myself: "He's playing like a blind guy". Then I looked it up. He could play unbelievable bass lines.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 20.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Posted 09-20-2017 08:56
    Here is one that gives you plenty of time to listen. The wobbly unisons are uncannily even, almost making me wonder was there a fan in the room, or some flaw in the recorder.
    Bruno Walter plays Bach on the piano! (BWV 849) - RARE!
    YouTube remove preview
    Bruno Walter plays Bach on the piano! (BWV 849) - RARE!
    Here is the conductor Bruno Walter playing Bach's Prelude & Fugue in C# minor, BWV 849 at the piano. Recorded at Walter's home in Beverly Hills, 1952. Link to my Bruno Walter playlist: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF733616AA94EAD90&feature=plcp
    View this on YouTube >


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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 21.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2017 11:29
    Ed --

    Thank you for this. It's Wonderful! My ears hear a small upright. Because the performance itself is so spot on, the state of tuning gives it a warmth and character that make it incredibly personal. This is a wonderfully unique performance that I will savor and remember. Had the piano been in tune it would have been just another performance.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 22.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2017 18:41
    In the 1960 movie "Shoot the Piano Player" Charles Aznavour sits down at an old upright and begins to play Bach. It's quite a breathtaking sound.

    Bob Anderson
    Tucson, AZ




  • 23.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Posted 09-20-2017 09:22
    Peter,

    Try listening to Dave Frank, a student of Lenny's.  Great player, great teacher (online as well) and an all around crazy, funny guy.

    Best,
    Jim





  • 24.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2017 17:45

    The recording and performance industry standards of today are far higher than they were 50-70 years ago.  When I was a young man in the late 60's and early 70's, I enjoyed many Jazz albums that are indeed iconic but no recording company would allow that today.  Even Pop music has changed.  Jerry Lee Lewis, for example recorded some of his greatest hits on what would never be allowed today.  The Nashville Country Music industry is equally particular.  Classical music generally fared better earlier on but not always, as in the example Ed submitted.  None of that would ever be allowed today.

    The Pop Music industry has actually taken things too far, in my opinion.  Nearly any Pop song you may hear today has the vocals subjected to pitch correction software.  It takes any pitch that a singer produces and "corrects" it to a theoretical pitch.  If a singer slides from one note to the next, it artificially divides that slide into "perfect" and theoretical half steps, all the while producing a characteristic distortion. While it may help certain vocalists, it produces a characteristic sound that I find truly annoying to hear.  It removes virtually all of the bending of pitch that gives some "soul" to a singer's voice.  For example, can you imagine what Billie Holiday's recordings would sound like if they were subjected to pitch correction software?  I'd love it if someone actually did that to demonstrate how destructive it really is.

    Then, there is the concept of the "Honky Tonk" piano sound.  In the early part of the 20th Century, the "Ragtime" type music of Scott Joplin but also of many other composers, notably, George Gershwin, was popular.  It was the era of what we think of as the "old upright" piano today, except that the instruments were new at that time.

    They were built in the East, tuned at the factory and then transported out West.  The rail service may have ended at Kansas City but even if it went further West, at some point, the piano had to be put on a wagon and transported to a newly founded town such as the iconic, Tombstone, Arizona. (But really, all over the West).  Installed in a saloon, the piano was played heavily, night after night, for many hours.  In a much drier climate, the pitch of the piano fell and unevenly so, unisons deteriorated,  the action screws loosened, lost motion developed and the hammers quickly became deeply grooved.

    Here is the scene from "Tombstone" that makes me think of what I am talking about.  (I actually think that the piano was purposefully detuned to create this scene!)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAKb0nITW_4

    Yet, the piano continued to be played, night after night in such a condition.  (A piano can be heard in other scenes of the film, "Tombstone") If there ever was anyone, anyone at all who could service the piano in any way, it would have been few and far between.  Whatever could have been done at that time would not likely been the equivalent of what today's piano technician is known and expected to do.

    I also remember a scene in the film, "The Godfather" where an old, out of tune, piano was played but this time, I think that the props department for the film went out and searched for a piano that sounded just like the way they had in mind with no modifications being necessary:

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=piano+scene+in+the+film+Godfather&view=detail&mid=F449EB733121A4C0980FF449EB733121A4C0980F&FORM=VIRE

    Therefore, the music of that time became associated with the sound of a very poorly tuned and serviced piano.  It was not meant to be but very clearly, it was.  Most of the music enjoyed from player pianos anywhere, suffered the same indignation.  It was often a "jerky" kind of music anyway, considering the apparatus that there was to play it.  The sound of an out of tune and otherwise poorly serviced piano became associated with the very kind of music that was to be played upon the piano.

    I have heard, recently, such music played upon a superbly tuned and serviced piano.  Somehow, the piano just sounded "too good".  Too clear, too even, too everything that we think of today as being proper.  I experienced the same thing back in the 80's when I would tune a piano for a traveling band.  I tuned it "too good!", some techies told me.  Of course, it was all well received but I do remember that.  It was not unlike the pitch correction software lament that I have today.  The piano actually sounded too pure and in tune for what was expected from it.

    The moral of the story is that we need to apply today's standards to what we do.  We all need to tune the best that we can either aurally or electronically and we need to service the pianos otherwise, keep them clean and dignified and properly playable.  That is our business today.



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    William Bremmer
    RPT
    Madison WI
    608-238-8400
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  • 25.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2017 18:06
    An afterthought on my earlier post:

    While we all know ragtime as associated with honky tonk style of out of tuneness, I do remember seeing a photo a while back of Scott Joplin (in a three piece suit) playing a Steinway grand, probably an A. My guess that piano was fully serviced before the performance. Good 'O Scott didn't look like he was a drunk monkey in a saloon; he looked like a respectable musician from yesteryear.

    Its amazing how much Hollywood affects our thought process, isn't it?

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    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-30-2017 19:34
    Today I heard a 1902 recording of Scott Joplin playing his "The Entertainer."

    Although I've heard this piece recorded multiple times, half of them on an out of tune piano, the original recording by Scott Joplin was on a nicely tuned piano, although I think it was to A435. I hold to my original thesis that professional musicians that could afford it wanted their pianos in tune. Where the idea that ragtime pianos should be out of tune comes from I have no idea.

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    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
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  • 27.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Posted 09-30-2017 19:43
    Benjamin, I believe you are mistaken.
    I don't think any acoustic recordings of Scott Joplin playing exist.
    There are player piano rolls by Joylin which have been played and recorded on contemporary pianos, and there is a youtube selection which has The Entertainer (1902) in the title. but that is not played by Joplin. It sounds not at all like a 1902 recording.
    If you have a direct recording of Joplin by Joplin, please let us know the source.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 28.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-01-2017 18:36
    My bad, the recordings from the mid 1920s. Still, it was on an in tune piano, even if it was a few years after Joplin's death. Makes me wonder if the pianist knew him...

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    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-02-2017 03:06
    The Beatles used an out of tune piano on a few songs.?? "I Want To Tell
    You" uses it predominantly.?? It is known as the "Mrs. Mills" piano.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinway_Vertegrand




  • 30.  RE: Iconic Out of Tune Pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-01-2017 03:12

    Benjamin,

    I believe I covered the reasons why Ragtime music is often associated with a poorly tuned piano.  It is not that the composer envisioned it that way, it is the reality of when and where that music was often played that has given the general public a certain impression.

    Hollywood likes to feed the general public's impressions rather than make an attempt to dispel them.  The piano in a film such as Tombstone, for example is really just a prop.  If you have ever seen the film which I believe was called, "The Piano", it featured a square grand that had been left out on the beach (which would have ruined it right there).  Then, it was hauled up a muddy hill.  It even shows a brief scene with a piano tuner. 

    But the music which supposedly flowed from that instrument was modern day, New Age type music.  The music itself was an anachronism.  The sound was not that of a square grand but a modern grand piano.  It is a tale of fiction, so they simply fed the general public's impression of what kind of sound the music would have rather than trying to create the true sound of a square grand, water  or high moisture damaged or not.

    There are plenty of other examples of that.  There was a Beethoven film, "My Forever Beloved" or something like that.  The sound of Beethoven's piano was that of a modern piano, not the kind that he would have had.  There were other impression feeding scenes in the film.  Soldiers in the Napoleonic wars raping women showed a soldier "giving her the old in and out" (a line from "A Clockwork Orange") and at least two scenes where a woman managed to expose her breasts to Beethoven.  A more documentary type film was not what they were going for, obviously.

    In Amadeus, they tried to portray the sound of a piano of that era by using a tinny sounding modern piano tuned in Reverse Well.  Again, it was not meant to be a documentary so they did a lot of general public impression feeding.  The interaction between Mozart and Salieri was most likely not what really happened but it made for a great movie.

    So, when ever you see any 19th Century Western type film and there is a scene in a saloon with someone playing Ragtime music on a piano, they are virtually ALWAYS going to have the piano have that particular out of tune sound.  It would seem out of place if they didn't.

    That is why, in The Godfather, a film about murderous gangsters, the props department most likely searched for an old and long unserviced upright piano.  They searched for a piano that had the kind of sound that they wanted and did nothing to change it.

    It is also well known that when John Lennon recorded the song, "Imagine", there was a fine grand available but a far less well prepared Steinway upright was chosen for the particular sound it had.

    I have searched many times for a You Tube clip from "Chinatown"  (Jack Nicholson) where the lead character visits a senior care home.  The piano is not seen but you hear someone playing it in the background.  Nobody ever put that particular scene on You Tube, however.  I noticed it immediately when I first saw the film and anytime I have seen it since.  (It is one of the all time great film noir genre films). It sounded like a poorly tuned spinet, the very kind that would likely be in such a place.

    On the other hand, any number of CD's can be found of Scott Joplin, Gershwin and other composers of that type of music from that era on very good and well prepared pianos.  I don't know of any that have been produced on an out of tune, old upright.



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    William Bremmer
    RPT
    Madison WI
    608-238-8400
    ------------------------------