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Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

  • 1.  Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Posted 11-03-2017 12:20
    Or is it something else? I know about the clicking caused by the loose bushings, and the poor action geometry in some years. But, I haven't found much discussion in the way of what causes sluggishness in these actions. Is it verdigris? I understand that this will be obvious if prsesnt, but if not, what are the other causes?

    The piano in this instance is a 1980 M...

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    Ruben Jackson
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  • 2.  RE: Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Posted 11-03-2017 12:34
    What is the DW, UW and F?





  • 3.  RE: Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Posted 11-03-2017 12:38
    Haven't seen the piano yet.

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    Ruben Jackson
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  • 4.  RE: Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-03-2017 13:16
    Ruben,

    Verdigris can not grow in Teflon actions.  The sluggishness is usually because the round Teflon bushing is being squeezed to oval as the wood around it changes shape and the hole becomes oval. The pressure on the pin is too much and it becomes slow. 

    The clicking occurs when it all goes the other way and the (now oval) bushing does not fit well in the "round" hole. 

    'Rinse and repeat' year after year...you get the picture. 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 5.  RE: Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-03-2017 13:29
    Rueben

    From what I understand, Teflon doesn't change in shape when the wood around it does. Thus, when the wood expands because it's dry the Teflon bushing will click. The opposite happens when it's very humid. The wood expands and "crushes" the Teflon, causing the action center to become tight. No veridgris. That was a reaction between the felt busing and the nickel plating on the center pin.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 6.  RE: Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Posted 11-03-2017 13:38

    Caveman Says; "Dinosaur Dung!! "

    Modern Translation: 
    Could be contaminant of some kind, such as some old gummie lubricant.

    -chris
    #translator​

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    I have a piano in my Nuclear Fallout Shelter, and my competitors don't. How silly is that?

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
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  • 7.  RE: Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Posted 11-03-2017 15:38
    Wim, the opposite happens. When the wood takes on moisture, the wood expands and so does the hole. That's why they click in wet weather. I saw a demo where a s/f was placed in a glass of water and the bushing became loose in the yoke.

    Heat's effect on the bushing is probably a cause for expanding plastic or cold causing shrinkage.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 8.  RE: Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-03-2017 18:15
    Jon

    As I was writing my response I got to thinking about this effect of moisture and the hole. It's hard for me to wrap my head around the concept that when wood expands, a hole in the wood does too. I've heard about it, but it's still hard to visualize it.  Mind you, I'm not arguing with you, because you have proof.  It's just doesn't make sense, to me.  

    But the bottom line, regarding the original question, remains. Humidity changes have a big effect on Teflon bushings.  

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 9.  RE: Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-04-2017 20:09
    If these pianos are strictly humidity controlled (whole environment) then they should actually be fine. Unfortunately they are rarely fine.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 10.  RE: Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Posted 11-04-2017 20:12
    Humidity doesn't affect the bushings, it affects the wood. If you treat the yoke with thin epoxy or CA you stabilized the wood and the bushings are trouble free once reinstalled.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 11.  RE: Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-04-2017 23:52
    "Humidity doesn't affect the bushings, it affects the wood"

    That's what I meant.  


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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 12.  RE: Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-04-2017 20:24
    Mr. Blees,

    I had a hard time with this too then a wood technologist (Warren Albrecht) at Steinway cleared it up for me in one sentence. " When you add humidity to the wood and the wood swells the entire part including the hole gets bigger."

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    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
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  • 13.  RE: Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-05-2017 05:19
    To add to Karl's comment, a wood engineer from Kimball, Jon Light, explained the same thing; add humidity and the hole enlarges. If I remember correctly, Jon wrote an article in the Journal sometime in the mid 80's on this subject.

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    Rick Butler
    Bowie MD
    240 396 7480
    RickRickRickRickRick
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  • 14.  RE: Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Posted 11-05-2017 08:53
    Simple in principle. but not in practice.
    Wood expands and contracts more across the grain than along the grain, so round holes become oval across grain when the wood moisture content increases, and oval along the grain when the wood dries.
    But the process can be irregular, because the surface wood may respond faster than the full piece of wood. An open hole may first become smaller with increased humidity, then larger as the rest of the wood expands.
    And then, if wood has been compressed, as in easing keys, the compressed wood may respond to humidity by swell back to its original shape.
    It's a wonder anything made of wood works. (It helps if you use the right wood.)

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 15.  RE: Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Posted 11-05-2017 11:09
    Willem,
    Am I understanding this humidity question correctly. Humidity enlarged the flange pin hole and at the same time distorts it oblong. This causes the sluggish note.
    So if I apply Pro Tec it allows the hole to resume its original round shape?

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 16.  RE: Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Posted 11-05-2017 11:14
    Willem,
    My question should be applied to non Teflon bushed flanges.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 17.  RE: Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Posted 11-05-2017 16:18
    I'm going to answer my own question.  Maybe this elongated hole fact applies to only teflon bushed flanges and not cloth bushed center pin holes. Yes I know we should re-pin but Pro Tek sure works wonders for me.

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    Thomas Black
    Decatur AL
    256-350-9315
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  • 18.  RE: Is verdigris cause of sluggish Teflon Steinways?

    Posted 11-05-2017 16:23
    After re-reading the post it appears the elongated hole issue applies to only teflon bushed flanges. Thanks.

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    Thomas Black
    Decatur AL
    256-350-9315
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