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Good re-stringing article?

  • 1.  Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 03-24-2017 13:21
    Can someone on the list refer me to a good article in the journal on restringing in the archives? 

    ------------------------------
    ChrisChernobieff
    Chernobieff Piano and Harpsichord Mfg.
    Lenoir City TN
    865-986-7720
    chrisppff@gmail.com
    www.facebook.com/ChernobieffPianoandHarpsichordMFG
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-26-2017 21:13
    Nick Gravagne wrote well on the subject of stringing in general in March and April of 1993. Larry Crabb addressed restringing specifically in July of 1991. Both are in the catalog of reprints. And of course John Travis wrote a whole book on the topic.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 03-26-2017 21:17

    Thank you Karl,
    I'll look those up. I was sent a pm regarding a kawaii restringing guide written by Gravagne which was very good.






  • 4.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-26-2017 23:48
    Ah well. As usual Mr. Mannino and friends have responded faster and better.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 04-07-2017 21:03
    Well I hate to be negative but..... I just went through the nick gravagne kawaii stringing guide.  It just isn't precise enough, the becket can end up at any o'clock. 
    Still searching for a precise way to get all beckets at 12 o'clock.
    Any suggestions?

    ------------------------------
    ChrisChernobieff
    Chernobieff Piano and Harpsichord Mfg.
    Lenoir City TN
    865-986-7720
    chrisppff@gmail.com
    www.facebook.com/ChernobieffPianoandHarpsichordMFG
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-08-2017 12:54
      |   view attached

    Why 12:00?  Mine end up at about 3:00.   The way to get them precise is to measure the length past the pin with a piece of rubber tubing cut to the length you want (usually about 3 inches).  It requires first cutting the approximate length of the wire, putting the hitch pin bend, installing it and then pulling each side taut while sliding the tubing over the end to measure where the cut is made using some point of the tuning pin hole as a reference. 

     

     

     

    David Love

    www.davidlovepianos.com

     






  • 7.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 04-08-2017 13:19
    The Becket Tool does this... it's in the archives.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2017 12:30
    The becket tool does what?

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 04-09-2017 14:35
    The Becket Tool is a gage to quickly cut the wire fro consistently placed beckets.




    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 10-05-2019 12:07
    The rubber tube idea is great. Just finished my first restring..wish I'd had one for consistency. Thanks

    ------------------------------
    [Jack L] [Phelps]
    [Key's N Tune]
    [Tucson] [AZ]
    [520.461.7313]
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-07-2017 22:47
    OK, first let me say that I have never completely restrung a piano. But I have restrung sections, and the occasional broken string. While I make no attempt to line up the becket o'clock on any individual string replacement, when doing a section I have achieved good results simply by using the traditional three finger measure method. In other words, using the thickness of my middle three fingers to measure a consistent length from the edge of the pin to the point where I cut the string. I get a reliable three winding wrap, and when restringing sections I get a consistent enough becket o'clock alignment. 

    That said, I know of several techs that use a piece of tubing, like, say, a piece of plastic drinking straw, cut to a specific length. They then cut the wire a bit long, run it through this length of tube, align the tube with the side of the pin and then cut the end off at the edge of the straw. Different tube lengths may be used for different sections of the piano, and different wrap preferences, but it generally provides a very consistent becket o'clock. 

    The other thing to be aware of, especially when restringing sections, or an entire piano, is to make sure you are pulling the string tight at relatively consistent tension before cutting. If you pull tight on one string, but then get lazy on the next, your beckets are going to have different o'clocks.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 04-07-2017 23:04

    Thanks Geoff,
    Some good tips. Gravagne did have a neat little way of pulling the string the same.
    I'll be looking into the Larry Crabb article next.
    Also, I can't wait for Ed Howard to send me his ouline. He tells me he gets them all at 12 o clock and does it fast.   I couldn't remember it all in a phone call tho.






  • 13.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-08-2017 07:57
    Chris,

    I use the 3 - 3.5 finger method.

    I orient my first pin (of the two shared) with becket at 12:30 w/2.5 coils on it. Second pin is then measured and cut as usual. When adding tension and setting coils, I pull the FIRST pin up to about 11:00 or so. This takes up the slack from both (pulling it slightly back around the hitch pin) and equalizing the amount of wire needed to bring both beckets to about 12:00 - 2:00 when bringing up the second pin by the time you're up to pitch.

    Try it. A little practice and your rhythm will become natural.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-08-2017 10:32
    Apologies if I missed something in recent discussion, though I don't think so.  I understand why the consistency of the becket position would be both visually pleasing as well as a subliminal reinforcement of the sense of underlying craftsmanship, but is there any claim being made regarding mechanical advantage?

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2017 08:51
    David, 

    There is no mechanical advantage to having the beckets in the same place for the piano that I am aware of, except perhaps on a fairly minute level (e. g., consistency of exactly how much tuning pin in is in the pin block, assuming uniform pin height). However, there is an advantage for the tech who is moving their tuning lever from one pin to the next some two hundred and thirty times in the course of a tuning. It's handy if one can lift the lever off of one pin and drop it one the next without having to momentarily search for the correct o'clock. WHICH o'clock the stringer chooses (12, 3 etc.) will be a factor in what angle(s) the tuning lever can be at relative to the string.

    Best,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-09-2017 10:28
    Now THAT'S a functionality that adds value!  If you can end up with the piano well tuned with the kind of pin orientation you're suggesting,  you should be able to do a fairly refined tuning, visually (as per tuning lever position)  or even kinesthetically.  Just make the tuning hammer go to the same point on the 'clock'.  So many possibilities!

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 04-09-2017 11:04

    D. Love,
    I was told by another tech that becket orientation is important for ease of squeezing with becket pliers.






  • 18.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-10-2017 10:41
    I see.  I haven't found that to be a problem but altering the ultimate becket position is just a matter of the length of the tubing you use or the reference point at the tuning pin hole for cutting.  A tube of about 2 3/4" would probably be about right for 12:00 but you can test.  There will be some variation depending on the length of the overall string since because of difference in string stretch but that can be compensated for by altering the cutting reference point at the tuning pin hole.  

    I do like the beckets to line up for aesthetic reasons.  Putting the lever in the same position for tuning, as has been mentioned, is something that hadn't occurred to me but is a nice side benefit I suppose.  Not a critical one for me though.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 04-10-2017 10:59
    Is putting the lever on the exact same position an ergonomic liability or ergonomic benefit?  I would lean towards it being an ergonomic liability.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-10-2017 19:36

    Lever routinely straight with string maybe ergonomic liability with tuning benefits.




  • 21.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 04-11-2017 05:56
    On grands I use the 'T' hammer for tuning. Therefore the 12:00 position doesn't enter into it. What does enter into it is the strength of the wrist, though.  But then, I'm Left handed.     Michael   UK





  • 22.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-11-2017 00:52
    Neither, I would think. I try to tune grands standing up or change body positions periodically so it doesn't really matter. Probably more of a problem that you use the same hand than the position of the tuning pin.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 04-10-2017 21:28
    I try to align beckets. However, getting the piano stringed with the steel untwisted is a bigger problem.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-10-2017 22:50
    Although not specifically related to stringing,  another trick to facilitate placement on the tuning pins is to align the tip of the hammer with the body of the hammer. Point of the star precisely at the top of the hammer gives you two choices...align with flat side or corner of pin.

    This way, all you need to do is look at the orientation of the pin and you know instantly how to orient the hammer to drop it on. No wasted motion or time fiddling around to try to find the right fit.

    If you develop the habit of looking at the next pin while working on the previous pin you know exactly where to drop the hammer. If you save .5 - 1 second per pin in this manner it really does add up (believe it or not) especially in a pitch raise.

    It's an old factory tip. Ask any factory tuner or stringer. 

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 04-11-2017 06:10
    Becket orientation has no bearing on the tuning or the tone of a piano. Neither does the number of string coils on the wrest pin. The distance between the underside of the wrest pin coils and the top of the frame or plank is again a matter of aesthetics. When I restrung my 1914 S&S 'A' Hamburger I put four coils on each pin - and someone on the list immediately questioned the possibility of 'flag-poling'. H-m.m.m  Doesn't enter into it, does it! Looks nice though. I use a pair of duck-billed pliers to squeeze the beckett against the wrest pin - and that doesn't demand any particular orientation of the position of the beckett what-so-ever. Is it 'beckett' or 'becket'? both get underlined in my PC spelling. Another term in use for these is 'kneb' - as in roofing tiles.      Michael  from a sun-drenched North Norfolk sea-side . . . .    UK





  • 26.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-11-2017 19:45
    I guess it's a slow news day (is there such a thing anymore?) and we're looking for something to talk about. FWIW I put four coils in the top treble and three everyhere else.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-12-2017 11:52
    Why the difference between 3 or 4 coils on the same piano? Yamaha started doing this recently (4 coils in treble sections) and Steinway also now does this (again?)
    Is it related to the string deflection to counter bearing? I don't see it providing better stability, but it will alter the overall length of the pin outside the block and/or change the string deflection angle and/or change the gap between coils and plate.

    Joe Wiencek




  • 28.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Member
    Posted 04-12-2017 14:06
    3 or 4 coils? The difference is the thickness of the wire (and core in the bass strings). The thicker wire will be closer to the plate with the same number of wraps.

    ------------------------------
    Jeff Farris
    Austin TX
    512-636-1914
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-12-2017 15:42
    Why not use a 2.5" pin and put 6 coils on it? (I have in fact seen something close to this).

    Pwg

    Not exactly tongue in cheek here...I want to know what, and if, there are ramifications or actual benefits to anything other than 3 coils. Harpsichords are often strung with 10 or more coils...could it be that more coils add stiffness to the tuning pin?

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2017 15:58
    Well if you switch from 2 3/8" to 2.5" pins you better go to six coils or on some pianos the pins will be protruding out of the bottom of the block.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 04-13-2017 16:16
    Hi, David,

    On 4/13/2017 12:58 PM, David Love via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
    >
    > Well if you switch from 2 3/8" to 2.5" pins you better go to six coils or on some pianos the pins will be protruding out of the bottom of the block.

    ...yes...indeed...especially if some idiot has installed a block that is
    too thin for the design of the instrument...

    Kind regards.

    Horace

    >
    > ------------------------------
    > David Love RPT
    > www.davidlovepianos.com
    > davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    > 415 407 8320
    > ------------------------------
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 04-12-2017 15:41
    > From: Peter Grey
    > Subject: Good re-stringing article?
    >
    > Why not use a 2.5" pin and put 6 coils on it? (I have in fact seen something close to this).
    >
    > Pwg
    >
    > Not exactly tongue in cheek here...I want to know what, and if, there are ramifications or actual benefits to anything other than 3 coils. Harpsichords are often strung with 10 or more coils...could it be that more coils add stiffness to the tuning pin?
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Peter Grey
    > Stratham NH
    > 603-686-2395
    > pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    > ------------------------------
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 04-12-2017 14:05
    > From: Jeff Farris
    > Subject: Good re-stringing article?
    >
    > 3 or 4 coils? The difference is the thickness of the wire (and core in the bass strings). The thicker wire will be closer to the plate with the same number of wraps.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Jeff Farris
    > Austin TX
    > 512-636-1914
    > ------------------------------
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 04-12-2017 11:51
    > From: Joe Wiencek
    > Subject: Good re-stringing article?
    >
    > Why the difference between 3 or 4 coils on the same piano? Yamaha started doing this recently (4 coils in treble sections) and Steinway also now does this (again?)
    > Is it related to the string deflection to counter bearing? I don't see it providing better stability, but it will alter the overall length of the pin outside the block and/or change the string deflection angle and/or change the gap between coils and plate.
    >
    > Joe Wiencek
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
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    >
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  • 32.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-14-2017 10:31
    Hi Horace

    I did run into one of these not too long ago.  The tech had ground down the tops of the hammer flange screws so that the action could be inserted into the action cavity without binding on the the protruding pins.  That was probably an unpleasant surprise.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-11-2017 23:55
    I don't restring often. When I do, I have to get back into the swing of
    the routine. My challenge is to produce becket positions that are
    consistent. My standard is based on producing a professional product,
    knowing that slight variations in position won't compromise tuning
    stability.

    I've been cheating for years. At first I used my fingers as a guide. Now
    I use a tool that helps me cut an exact length of wire longer than the
    tuning pin. Ed Sutton gave me this tool, and he credits its maker to
    someone else. It measures almost 3" long x almost 1/4" thick and made of
    the harder the wood the better. I've attached photos.

    Pull the wire around the hitch pin, bend it the same way every time,
    orient your new tuning pin with the hole in the same position every
    time, pull the wire with the same force every time, align the jig on top
    of the tuning pin at the same place every time when you cut it, make the
    becket the exact length every time... I think those are the variables.
    As the wire diameter changes and position of the tuning from the front
    of the piano changes, you may have to adjust how far forward or beyond
    you place your jig in relationship to the top of the tuning pin to
    account for changing positions of your becket.

    Usually about 1/4 through the restringing process my coil positions
    start becoming very consistent. At the tenor/bass break they begin to
    get more inconsistent because of how sharp the angle is to the front of
    the piano. It becomes harder to control the amount of wire I cut beyond
    the tuning pin... there's a lot of curved wire I can't pull straight.

    If I did this every day I would get better at it. Meanwhile, I have to
    go slow and fix my mistakes along the way. So is the way of restringing
    for me and my jig.

    JP




  • 34.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-12-2017 14:10
    John,
    I believe the original idea for your wooden stringing gage was John Page (also JP.) very handy, indeed. Your photos are much better than the drawings we originally had along with his tip in the Journal.

    ~ jeannie

    Jeannie Grassi, Registered Piano Technician
    Island Piano Service
    Bainbridge Island, WA
    206-842-3721




  • 35.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-12-2017 20:09
    Thank you Jeannie and thank you Jon Page!

    -JP




  • 36.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 06-13-2017 08:25
    The rear supporting extension broke off from use. I replaced it with a screw which the head helps to secure the wire. The initial extension had a notch cut into it which gave way. I also installed center pins to reinforce the center and front extensions. The notch at the far front (right) side is to index the top of an installed pin, it used to be a square cut. The extension on the far right rear is for pin height. This is my proto-type which worked so well I never made another just made modifications. A simpler execution would be to install 3 #4 hinge screws into a strip of wood or HMDP.

    Another handy jig is the Balance Hole Easing Gage.

    Gage for cutting wire prior to making coil

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 04-14-2017 02:57
    Three - or - Four coils? It makes absolutely no difference to the tuning pin or the tunability - IMHO it just looks more impressive. I certainly would make them all the same though! As for H'chords - one has to be aware that many wrest pins used there do not have a stringing hole - that was the original reason, to achieve 'grip' - so many coils are necessary. In conclusion therefore the final arbiter is aesthetics.
    Happy Easter everyone! Have a nice, hot, toasted Hot Cross Bun today!     Michael    UK





  • 38.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2017 01:05
    Looks cool.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 10-04-2019 07:24
    I'm not an expert with pianos, I am a guitar Luthier and wish to study Piano tech. That being stated, I wish to comment on the possible reason Yamaha & Steinway increased the number of wraps, and why I suspect it may have a bearing on the tone of the instrument. It may actually increase the harmonic overtones present during sustain, as well the length of sustain decay as well. The reason I suspect this is that the greater the angle from bridge to the becket, the greater the sustain. At least I know for a fact this is true with guitars. For Example, Vintage Gibson and Martin guitars have a tilted headstock increasing the angle from nut to Machine head, as well as the angle of a Les Paul guitars Stop block to the bridge, and this DOES greatly increase sustain and improve tone. I'm not sure if it it applies to Piano, but the similarities of the physics make sense IMHO... An A/B Decay and harmonic overtone analysis comparison on identical instruments would be interesting to discover on with these variables.

    ------------------------------
    Poulos
    [Luthier]
    hammond IN

    Poulos
    ------------------------------



  • 40.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 10-04-2019 08:11
    Like Michael Gamble I can't see any reason whatsoever why increasing the agraffe to becket angle, if that's what you mean, should improve sustain at all. Tuning and resonance will have a principal effect, which is where I concentrate.

    Instruments with steep angles at the agraffes to the tuning pins are a pain. I suspect that the idea was to give better stability but it increases metal fatigue of strings after many tunings, working through the angle, and leads to early string failures. Ibach is one such European maker who adopted the style and given a choice between an early 20th century Ibach which might sound nice, or a Broadwood, Bechstein, Blutner or Steinway, I'd avoid the Ibach like the plague.

    Best wishes

    David P






  • 41.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 10-05-2019 12:17
    I'd like to see the outline as well. If you would, forward a copy Mr Howard doesn't mind.
    Thx

    ------------------------------
    [Jack L] [Phelps]
    [Key's N Tune]
    [Tucson] [AZ]
    [520.461.7313]
    ------------------------------



  • 42.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-06-2019 14:12
    Another way that I’ve seen factory stringers use to get the same length cut is to place the jaws of the wire cutter right at the tuning pin hole and wrap tape 3” away on one of the grips (lever). Then eye the wire where the tape is and cut there. Probably takes practice to train the eyes a bit, but it’s fast, because you don’t need to put tools down to measure.
    By the way, I always learned to measure 4 fingers as opposed to three, but maybe my fingers aren’t very fat. 3 of my fingers would end up too little for 3 coils.

    Joe Wiencek




  • 43.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 10-06-2019 14:35
    As a person who never restrung a piano before what would be the suggested tools at minimum one would expect to have? Thank you gentlemen





  • 44.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-06-2019 18:44
    First requirement: Find someone who restrings pianos, watch this person at work, see the tools and supplies you need. When you have them, hire this experienced person to supervise your first attempts. Probably best to restring your own piano before someone else's.

    After making a plan for the scaling and doing some strings while being supervised, take your time while alone, and work your way through it. Take lots of breaks.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 45.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 10-07-2019 18:18
    Restringing a piano is an opportunity to make significant improvements, including updating the scale and improving terminations using available 21st century materials and technology.
    Or it is an opportunity to degrade what exists and make it more difficult to improve the piano...maybe produce something shiny that is really sub-par.
    Susan's advice is good. Study up-to-date books and find an experienced mentor.
    If you want to experiment, do it on your own piano.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 46.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 10-10-2019 14:06
    You raise an interesting thought about updating the scale. Can string scalings really be improved from the manufacturer's intentions? And to what musical purpose does rescaling result in?

    Excellent principles are laid out in Malcolm Rose's book  http://www.malcolm-rose.com/Stringing-Practice/stringing-practice.htm  and it's really fascinating to analyse the lengths, scales and tensions of strings. If anyone's interested I can post an XLS spreadsheet with the bones of the mathematics. It's a subject where Roshan's talents would be well exercised. 

    Should one be aiming for even tension? Or an even progression of tension?

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 47.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 10-10-2019 17:32
    A typical improvement can be made in the low tenor of short-scaled pianos, replacing a few plain wire tri-chords with wrapped bi-chords. Quality custom bass string makers can calculate a scale if you send them measurements. The best will calculate a new scale for all bass strings, not just copy old strings. Well-designed spread sheets can calculate scales as fast as you can enter the measurements, a process that could take hours with digital calculators.
    It is hard to believe what people accepted in scale design in early small grand pianos.
    Maximizing scale design in small pianos is a specialty generally best left to those with experience. But we all have to start somewhere.
    As concerns the OP, I don't know that the plainwire scale of an Acrosonic can be improved much, but if you're bothering to restring, it is probably worth the expense of having bass strings made by a top quality string maker who can examine the bass and rescale, not just copy or use a standard scale stick.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 48.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 10-10-2019 13:57
    Thank you for the sound advice Susan and who has been so kind as to reply. I am by no means a Piano technician. That being said, my piano is a 1946 Baldwin Acrosonic that I have been working on. It's is a nice sounding instrument for only 36 in high, but had it's problems that I am working towards fixing with the help and advice of a local tech who has been so kind in offering help along with sourcing some parts as well. I don't think he often does many restringing jobs (although I'm certain he is qualified to do so) so the ability to watch him restring an instrument is not likely. Anyway, Yesterday I Acquired the same model and year piano as my original. I will not be servicing anyone else's instrument nor have I plans to do so. I wish to restring one of them. My original is the one I have been working on and I've spent at least 40 to 60 hrs studying videos on YouTube but feel I've barely scratched the surface. The problem is I am on a fixed income and was hoping there were inexpensive alternatives to otherwise expensive tools that all of you experts utilize. If can make some tools and have friends who are metal fabricators who are willing to make me tools and or jigs. I only wish to have a list of all the tools experts use as well as what the bare minimum tools I can get by with, Ie; what non piano specific tools I already have that can work.( parallel pliers, modified long nose pliers, etc) if someone could provide me a complete list of restringing tools in their magic box versus the aforementioned tools that Lament could get by with it would be greatly appreciated! Basically a list of must have vs economical alternatives. Thank you to all you wonderful people who have replied and helped me so much already! I appreciate it more than words can express. Warmest regards, Chris Poulos





  • 49.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-10-2019 17:53
    Chris Poulos, if you are only re-stringing you can get by with needle nose side cutting pliers, dummy tuning pin, flat blade screwdriver (to lift the coils) and a tuning lever. If replacing tuning pins you need to have a reversible drill (1/2hp) and a special tuning tip bit that fits it.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 50.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2019 08:05
    I agree with Larry but would add that you can use a paint can opener for a coil lifter.  The lip on the tool fits well in a crowded tuning pin field such as in the tenor section of a spinet.  Nothing fancy but it works.

    ------------------------------
    Norman Cantrell
    Owner
    Piano Clinic
    Oklahoma
    580-695-5089
    ------------------------------



  • 51.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 10-11-2019 09:02
    Thanks Larry, this is some great advice! Then I can spend what money I do have on copper. Norman you have a good point with the paint can lid opener as it will get into those tight spots yet is not not sharp. I removed and cleaned all of my wound copper Bass strings as per a video I found on YouTube. Hampshire piano I believe. I utilized an auto body panel clip remover grinded the sides to make it then but it has a perfect prying lever action that work quite well on the bass harp. I had some problems on the treble harp while I'm strings there's a dozen of them and the Becketts broke off on a half a dozen strings. Argh it turns out there were burgers that had formed on the edges of the tuning pin holes. So I went at it with a round needle file first, and then I used a welding tip cleaner file set and finished off with 400 then 800 Grit Auto Body wet sanding paper. I did the same thing on the plain strings, carefully lowering them about a whole tone or minor third somewhere in there. Started with 400 Grit and ended with 800 to remove the rust and corrosion revealing shiny new looking plain wire. I have a friend that works at a machine shop so I will ask him if he has time to fabricate  some tools such as a capstan winch and a coil lifter. In the past I've used a quarter inch Drive socket put in my drill backwards 2 remove drum heads quickly and the tuning pins are the same size so I think zipping them out that way would work fine. Albeit I'm a bit hesitant to remove the pins as the maple bushings still look like they've held up to the test of time. However if there are burrs on the treble pins I don't want to add to what's already become a very tedious job sanding the corrosion off of those strings. This instrument is a 1946 acrosonic but I found one almost exactly like it in Milwaukee and picked it up two days ago. It is a 1940 serial number starting with 3 0 5 as opposed to the 46 which serial number begins with 373. The only difference I could find is that the stickers in the drop action of the 46 has felt guides on the whippens that the sticker pins slip into but the 1940 just has a pin through the maple whippen all in one piece. Also I'm not sure if the pin blocks were constructed the same. I don't remember where I heard this, possibly a gentleman at schaff who told me the first few years after the war where some of the best acrosonics ever built. I'm not 100% certain but it is my understanding that Baldwin was making laminated Hardwood plywood for landing crafts and then after the war they used the surplus to make pin blocks that were 21 ply Hardwood. I'm not sure where I heard this information, but I am curious to know if there's any truth to it. The cabinet and everything else looks the same on the 1940 as the 1946 except I believe the Felts and dampers on the 46 were of higher quality and the bass dampers look to be longer and sturdier. Anyway I really wasn't planning on picking up a second instrument but at free it was the right price. Now I'm interested in figuring out how to employ modern scaling when restringing my newly-acquired instrument. From what I've read there is software that can do this. Any thoughts? Thanks again so much. Warmest regards, Chris





  • 52.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 10-11-2019 09:09
    A quick question regarding tying strings. Is it possible to tie strings on the treble harp wound strings that snapped off leaving all the wraps behind on the tuning pins? It has that Capo screwed down all the way across retaining the strings and holding them at the required angle. I managed to tie the string above the bridge on the bass harp successfully but it does not have that retaining Capo.
    Would it damage anything to give it a try ? Thoughts? Advice?

    On Fri, Oct 11, 2019, 8:01 AM axeman1063 . <worldclasswiring@gmail.com wrote:
    Thanks Larry, this is some great advice! Then I can spend what money I do have on copper. Norman you have a good point with the paint can lid opener as it will get into those tight spots yet is not not sharp. I removed and cleaned all of my wound copper Bass strings as per a video I found on YouTube. Hampshire piano I believe. I utilized an auto body panel clip remover grinded the sides to make it then but it has a perfect prying lever action that work quite well on the bass harp. I had some problems on the treble harp while I'm strings there's a dozen of them and the Becketts broke off on a half a dozen strings. Argh it turns out there were burgers that had formed on the edges of the tuning pin holes. So I went at it with a round needle file first, and then I used a welding tip cleaner file set and finished off with 400 then 800 Grit Auto Body wet sanding paper. I did the same thing on the plain strings, carefully lowering them about a whole tone or minor third somewhere in there. Started with 400 Grit and ended with 800 to remove the rust and corrosion revealing shiny new looking plain wire. I have a friend that works at a machine shop so I will ask him if he has time to fabricate  some tools such as a capstan winch and a coil lifter. In the past I've used a quarter inch Drive socket put in my drill backwards 2 remove drum heads quickly and the tuning pins are the same size so I think zipping them out that way would work fine. Albeit I'm a bit hesitant to remove the pins as the maple bushings still look like they've held up to the test of time. However if there are burrs on the treble pins I don't want to add to what's already become a very tedious job sanding the corrosion off of those strings. This instrument is a 1946 acrosonic but I found one almost exactly like it in Milwaukee and picked it up two days ago. It is a 1940 serial number starting with 3 0 5 as opposed to the 46 which serial number begins with 373. The only difference I could find is that the stickers in the drop action of the 46 has felt guides on the whippens that the sticker pins slip into but the 1940 just has a pin through the maple whippen all in one piece. Also I'm not sure if the pin blocks were constructed the same. I don't remember where I heard this, possibly a gentleman at schaff who told me the first few years after the war where some of the best acrosonics ever built. I'm not 100% certain but it is my understanding that Baldwin was making laminated Hardwood plywood for landing crafts and then after the war they used the surplus to make pin blocks that were 21 ply Hardwood. I'm not sure where I heard this information, but I am curious to know if there's any truth to it. The cabinet and everything else looks the same on the 1940 as the 1946 except I believe the Felts and dampers on the 46 were of higher quality and the bass dampers look to be longer and sturdier. Anyway I really wasn't planning on picking up a second instrument but at free it was the right price. Now I'm interested in figuring out how to employ modern scaling when restringing my newly-acquired instrument. From what I've read there is software that can do this. Any thoughts? Thanks again so much. Warmest regards, Chris





  • 53.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-08-2017 11:29
    A good friend and former Kimball factory stringer the late Arthur Wiemerslage taught me a simple way to get the beckets to align. I hold my Starret cutters with the handles away from me and place the cross spring so that it appears to be directly over the plate hole while pulling the string towards me. I then cut the string where it crosses the jaws. The distance from the spring to the jaw provides a consistent tail length. It is important to maintain a consistent head/body angle in front of the instrument to prevent variations based on perspective. This technique combined with consistent winding of the coil on the first pin on the string and consistent pulling of the wire to and from the hitch pin allows even becket alignment across the scale with minimal effort.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 54.  RE: Good re-stringing article?

    Posted 06-29-2017 15:01
    That Jon Page tool is great! Thank you Mr. Page.

    ------------------------------
    ChrisChernobieff
    Chernobieff Piano and Harpsichord Mfg.
    Lenoir City TN
    865-986-7720
    chrisppff@gmail.com
    www.facebook.com/ChernobieffPianoandHarpsichordMFG
    ------------------------------