Pianotech

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.) 

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

I haven't had the problem with them getting much looser after I repin them. I work very carefully to compress the existing felt before I do any equaling up of tightness between the two sides of a flange by abrasion. I "exercise" a larger pin into each side of the flange using a "wallowing" motion while rotating it. Then I place the final pin in place without the flange and leave the pointed end protruding from the tighter side of the flange. I then use a heat gun to warm the tight side. Let them cool down for several hours or better overnight. And do final sizing when I pin them to the flanges.

Let is know how it works out.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 11:10
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.)

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Hi Ed,

Thanks for chiming in. The benefit of your considerable experience and your objectivity are always appreciated!

I had not intended to start a thread about pinning techniques, but am always eager to know what methods have proved successful for others in this realm. Pinning is a high priority in my shop, and we are always interested in how to make our precision work more stable over the long haul.

So you are rotating your "burnishing" pin, while wobbling/flag-poling ("wallowing") it in each bushing? (Wallow has several somewhat different meanings that could apply to this discussion.) Are you also moving it in and out of the bushing while rotating and wallowing it?

Thanks again,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 11:37
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

I haven't had the problem with them getting much looser after I repin them. I work very carefully to compress the existing felt before I do any equaling up of tightness between the two sides of a flange by abrasion. I "exercise" a larger pin into each side of the flange using a "wallowing" motion while rotating it. Then I place the final pin in place without the flange and leave the pointed end protruding from the tighter side of the flange. I then use a heat gun to warm the tight side. Let them cool down for several hours or better overnight. And do final sizing when I pin them to the flanges.

Let is know how it works out.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 11:10
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.)

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Interesting, Ed. So you've already been using heat to compress the felt.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 11:37
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

I haven't had the problem with them getting much looser after I repin them. I work very carefully to compress the existing felt before I do any equaling up of tightness between the two sides of a flange by abrasion. I "exercise" a larger pin into each side of the flange using a "wallowing" motion while rotating it. Then I place the final pin in place without the flange and leave the pointed end protruding from the tighter side of the flange. I then use a heat gun to warm the tight side. Let them cool down for several hours or better overnight. And do final sizing when I pin them to the flanges.

Let is know how it works out.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 11:10
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.)

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Maybe you should try rebushing with regular high quality bushing cloth on some samples. If the key balance pin holes are too loose as well as the key bushing cloth I would try to glue size the balance holes as well as rebush some sample keys. It may also be worth testing out the touch rail system that Scott Jones has to see if it could be a solution.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 11:10
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.)

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

James, 

We VS Pro-felted the balance and front rail key bushings and sized then with appropriate cauls, and glue-sized the balance pin holes. The friction of all of those keystick contact points are exactly where we want them now.

The question is about how to deal with the teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth, as the subject line states.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:20
From: James Kelly
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Maybe you should try rebushing with regular high quality bushing cloth on some samples. If the key balance pin holes are too loose as well as the key bushing cloth I would try to glue size the balance holes as well as rebush some sample keys. It may also be worth testing out the touch rail system that Scott Jones has to see if it could be a solution.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 11:10
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.)

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

If you know they are going to become looser, why not repin them tighter?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:27
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

James,

We VS Pro-felted the balance and front rail key bushings and sized then with appropriate cauls, and glue-sized the balance pin holes. The friction of all of those keystick contact points are exactly where we want them now.

The question is about how to deal with the teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth, as the subject line states.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:20
From: James Kelly
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Maybe you should try rebushing with regular high quality bushing cloth on some samples. If the key balance pin holes are too loose as well as the key bushing cloth I would try to glue size the balance holes as well as rebush some sample keys. It may also be worth testing out the touch rail system that Scott Jones has to see if it could be a solution.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 11:10
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.)

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Good question, Jon. If we knew how to anticipate how much looser they will get, with fairly constant predictability, then we could do just that. Seeking a way to get pinning stability in this material seemed more to the point, provided that is even possible.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 14:19
From: Jon Page
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

If you know they are going to become looser, why not repin them tighter?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:27
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

James,

We VS Pro-felted the balance and front rail key bushings and sized then with appropriate cauls, and glue-sized the balance pin holes. The friction of all of those keystick contact points are exactly where we want them now.

The question is about how to deal with the teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth, as the subject line states.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:20
From: James Kelly
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Maybe you should try rebushing with regular high quality bushing cloth on some samples. If the key balance pin holes are too loose as well as the key bushing cloth I would try to glue size the balance holes as well as rebush some sample keys. It may also be worth testing out the touch rail system that Scott Jones has to see if it could be a solution.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 11:10
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.)

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Alan,

Are these (and have these) bushings being pinned with Steinway' s pre-cut and rolled pins, or are they standard pins cut on both ends?

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 14:28
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Good question, Jon. If we knew how to anticipate how much looser they will get, with fairly constant predictability, then we could do just that. Seeking a way to get pinning stability in this material seemed more to the point, provided that is even possible.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 14:19
From: Jon Page
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

If you know they are going to become looser, why not repin them tighter?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:27
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

James,

We VS Pro-felted the balance and front rail key bushings and sized then with appropriate cauls, and glue-sized the balance pin holes. The friction of all of those keystick contact points are exactly where we want them now.

The question is about how to deal with the teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth, as the subject line states.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:20
From: James Kelly
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Maybe you should try rebushing with regular high quality bushing cloth on some samples. If the key balance pin holes are too loose as well as the key bushing cloth I would try to glue size the balance holes as well as rebush some sample keys. It may also be worth testing out the touch rail system that Scott Jones has to see if it could be a solution.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 11:10
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.)

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Peter,

This action, at the stage I encountered it, had a combination of finished center pins and cut center pins. (I guess the pins would be cut at both ends if it were to be cut from one of these loooooong pins that Fred referenced, but I normally see pins cut at one end only.) I surmised that this meant some re-pinning had already occurred. If we can safely assume that the previous repining was done well (and yes, I KNOW what happens when we "assume"…), then concern about the stability of the pinning is raised.

Curiously, some of the "finished" hammer center pins had a notch in the middle of the pin, characteristic of Renner products of late, How that found it's way into a S&S NY, I do not know. Don't image that NY sources their center pins from Stuttgart. Recycling on the part of the previous tech?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 15:23
From: Peter Grey
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Alan,

Are these (and have these) bushings being pinned with Steinway' s pre-cut and rolled pins, or are they standard pins cut on both ends?

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 14:28
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Good question, Jon. If we knew how to anticipate how much looser they will get, with fairly constant predictability, then we could do just that. Seeking a way to get pinning stability in this material seemed more to the point, provided that is even possible.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 14:19
From: Jon Page
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

If you know they are going to become looser, why not repin them tighter?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:27
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

James,

We VS Pro-felted the balance and front rail key bushings and sized then with appropriate cauls, and glue-sized the balance pin holes. The friction of all of those keystick contact points are exactly where we want them now.

The question is about how to deal with the teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth, as the subject line states.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:20
From: James Kelly
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Maybe you should try rebushing with regular high quality bushing cloth on some samples. If the key balance pin holes are too loose as well as the key bushing cloth I would try to glue size the balance holes as well as rebush some sample keys. It may also be worth testing out the touch rail system that Scott Jones has to see if it could be a solution.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 11:10
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.)

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message------

Peter,

This action, at the stage I encountered it, had a combination of finished center pins and cut center pins. (I guess the pins would be cut at both ends if it were to be cut from one of these loooooong pins that Fred referenced, but I normally see pins cut at one end only.) I surmised that this meant some re-pinning had already occurred. If we can safely assume that the previous repining was done well (and yes, I KNOW what happens when we "assume"…), then concern about the stability of the pinning is raised.

Curiously, some of the "finished" hammer center pins had a notch in the middle of the pin, characteristic of Renner products of late, How that found it's way into a S&S NY, I do not know. Don't image that NY sources their center pins from Stuttgart. Recycling on the part of the previous tech?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Can anyone explain why that scoring of the center pin is done?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2017 11:30
From: Christopher Purdy
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi,

As I understand it, Steinway now uses finished pins that are scored in the center on all their NY models. No clue on who their supplier is. Kent Webb could clear that up. 

Chris

Original Message------

Peter,

This action, at the stage I encountered it, had a combination of finished center pins and cut center pins. (I guess the pins would be cut at both ends if it were to be cut from one of these loooooong pins that Fred referenced, but I normally see pins cut at one end only.) I surmised that this meant some re-pinning had already occurred. If we can safely assume that the previous repining was done well (and yes, I KNOW what happens when we "assume"…), then concern about the stability of the pinning is raised.

Curiously, some of the "finished" hammer center pins had a notch in the middle of the pin, characteristic of Renner products of late, How that found it's way into a S&S NY, I do not know. Don't image that NY sources their center pins from Stuttgart. Recycling on the part of the previous tech?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message------

Can anyone explain why that scoring of the center pin is done?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

How do you suppose that works? Sounds like it could be a matter of needing either better conditioning of the wood prior to machining and/or better initial pin-to-birdseye fit.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2017 12:21
From: Christopher Purdy
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Steinway was having issues with center pins walking out of the flanges.  The scoring mark on the center of the pin is designed to give the pin more grip inside the birds eye to prevent that.

Chris

Christopher D. Purdy R.P.T.
Registered Piano Technician
School of Music, Ohio University
Rm. 311, Robt. Glidden Hall
Athens, OH  45701
Office (740) 593-4230
Cell    (740) 590-3842
fax      (740) 593-1429
http://www.ohiou.edu/music

Original Message------

Can anyone explain why that scoring of the center pin is done?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

It might take some experimentation to see if the teflon embedded in the bushing really does make maintaining friction difficult of impossible. If it does, then the only answer is to get rid of all the teflon-cloth and rebush -- assuming one's bushing skills are up to the task. But of course practice makes perfect -- well, if one doesn't practice using a faulty paradigm, making the same mistake over and over again.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 14:28
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Good question, Jon. If we knew how to anticipate how much looser they will get, with fairly constant predictability, then we could do just that. Seeking a way to get pinning stability in this material seemed more to the point, provided that is even possible.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 14:19
From: Jon Page
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

If you know they are going to become looser, why not repin them tighter?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:27
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

James,

We VS Pro-felted the balance and front rail key bushings and sized then with appropriate cauls, and glue-sized the balance pin holes. The friction of all of those keystick contact points are exactly where we want them now.

The question is about how to deal with the teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth, as the subject line states.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:20
From: James Kelly
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Maybe you should try rebushing with regular high quality bushing cloth on some samples. If the key balance pin holes are too loose as well as the key bushing cloth I would try to glue size the balance holes as well as rebush some sample keys. It may also be worth testing out the touch rail system that Scott Jones has to see if it could be a solution.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 11:10
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.)

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Alan,

A colleague here recently wrote in another forum about accidentally applying VS Profelt (in a mislabeled bottle) to hammer flanges, which resulted in a tightening of the bushings; however, he said that once he repinned them all they stayed consistent for some time.  Might be worth a try for your situation.

------------------------------
Kent Burnside, RPT
Franklin TN
615.430.0653
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:27
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

James,

We VS Pro-felted the balance and front rail key bushings and sized then with appropriate cauls, and glue-sized the balance pin holes. The friction of all of those keystick contact points are exactly where we want them now.

The question is about how to deal with the teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth, as the subject line states.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:20
From: James Kelly
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Maybe you should try rebushing with regular high quality bushing cloth on some samples. If the key balance pin holes are too loose as well as the key bushing cloth I would try to glue size the balance holes as well as rebush some sample keys. It may also be worth testing out the touch rail system that Scott Jones has to see if it could be a solution.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 11:10
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.)

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Thanks for the tip, Kent. Some of the greatest discoveries ever made were made by accident. It is a reminder to not only be observant about what we are looking for, but to just be generally observant. We never know what potential revelations may come our way unless we are constantly and vigilantly open to all possibilities. (Two example of this immediately come to mind: The discovery of LSD is said to have been accidental, as was the "discovery" of the Americas by late-fifeteenth century Europeans.)

As for the scenario you described, I have to wonder what other milky-looking substance that tech intended to apply to those hammer centers. Is there some magical Kool-Aid out there of which I have yet to partake?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2017 08:34
From: Kent Burnside
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Alan,

A colleague here recently wrote in another forum about accidentally applying VS Profelt (in a mislabeled bottle) to hammer flanges, which resulted in a tightening of the bushings; however, he said that once he repinned them all they stayed consistent for some time.  Might be worth a try for your situation.

------------------------------
Kent Burnside, RPT
Franklin TN
615.430.0653

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:27
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

James,

We VS Pro-felted the balance and front rail key bushings and sized then with appropriate cauls, and glue-sized the balance pin holes. The friction of all of those keystick contact points are exactly where we want them now.

The question is about how to deal with the teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth, as the subject line states.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:20
From: James Kelly
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Maybe you should try rebushing with regular high quality bushing cloth on some samples. If the key balance pin holes are too loose as well as the key bushing cloth I would try to glue size the balance holes as well as rebush some sample keys. It may also be worth testing out the touch rail system that Scott Jones has to see if it could be a solution.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 11:10
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.)

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

I was under the impression that the only "authorized" substance to apply to Steinway bushings was methanol.  Or perhaps this is old information?

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2017 11:08
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Thanks for the tip, Kent. Some of the greatest discoveries ever made were made by accident. It is a reminder to not only be observant about what we are looking for, but to just be generally observant. We never know what potential revelations may come our way unless we are constantly and vigilantly open to all possibilities. (Two example of this immediately come to mind: The discovery of LSD is said to have been accidental, as was the "discovery" of the Americas by late-fifeteenth century Europeans.)

As for the scenario you described, I have to wonder what other milky-looking substance that tech intended to apply to those hammer centers. Is there some magical Kool-Aid out there of which I have yet to partake?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2017 08:34
From: Kent Burnside
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Alan,

A colleague here recently wrote in another forum about accidentally applying VS Profelt (in a mislabeled bottle) to hammer flanges, which resulted in a tightening of the bushings; however, he said that once he repinned them all they stayed consistent for some time.  Might be worth a try for your situation.

------------------------------
Kent Burnside, RPT
Franklin TN
615.430.0653

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:27
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

James,

We VS Pro-felted the balance and front rail key bushings and sized then with appropriate cauls, and glue-sized the balance pin holes. The friction of all of those keystick contact points are exactly where we want them now.

The question is about how to deal with the teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth, as the subject line states.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:20
From: James Kelly
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Maybe you should try rebushing with regular high quality bushing cloth on some samples. If the key balance pin holes are too loose as well as the key bushing cloth I would try to glue size the balance holes as well as rebush some sample keys. It may also be worth testing out the touch rail system that Scott Jones has to see if it could be a solution.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 11:10
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.)

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

This came up a few years ago, specifically about repinning rep lever centers for more friction and finding that they loosened up shortly thereafter.  Worth a read: 
http://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=43&MID=639623&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer#bm9

------------------------------
Zeno Wood
Brooklyn, NY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2017 14:34
From: Peter Grey
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

I was under the impression that the only "authorized" substance to apply to Steinway bushings was methanol.  Or perhaps this is old information?

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2017 11:08
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Thanks for the tip, Kent. Some of the greatest discoveries ever made were made by accident. It is a reminder to not only be observant about what we are looking for, but to just be generally observant. We never know what potential revelations may come our way unless we are constantly and vigilantly open to all possibilities. (Two example of this immediately come to mind: The discovery of LSD is said to have been accidental, as was the "discovery" of the Americas by late-fifeteenth century Europeans.)

As for the scenario you described, I have to wonder what other milky-looking substance that tech intended to apply to those hammer centers. Is there some magical Kool-Aid out there of which I have yet to partake?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2017 08:34
From: Kent Burnside
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Alan,

A colleague here recently wrote in another forum about accidentally applying VS Profelt (in a mislabeled bottle) to hammer flanges, which resulted in a tightening of the bushings; however, he said that once he repinned them all they stayed consistent for some time.  Might be worth a try for your situation.

------------------------------
Kent Burnside, RPT
Franklin TN
615.430.0653

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:27
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

James,

We VS Pro-felted the balance and front rail key bushings and sized then with appropriate cauls, and glue-sized the balance pin holes. The friction of all of those keystick contact points are exactly where we want them now.

The question is about how to deal with the teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth, as the subject line states.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:20
From: James Kelly
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Maybe you should try rebushing with regular high quality bushing cloth on some samples. If the key balance pin holes are too loose as well as the key bushing cloth I would try to glue size the balance holes as well as rebush some sample keys. It may also be worth testing out the touch rail system that Scott Jones has to see if it could be a solution.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 11:10
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.)

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Make that, "Two examples…," and "…fifteenth century…"

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2017 11:08
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Thanks for the tip, Kent. Some of the greatest discoveries ever made were made by accident. It is a reminder to not only be observant about what we are looking for, but to just be generally observant. We never know what potential revelations may come our way unless we are constantly and vigilantly open to all possibilities. (Two example of this immediately come to mind: The discovery of LSD is said to have been accidental, as was the "discovery" of the Americas by late-fifeteenth century Europeans.)

As for the scenario you described, I have to wonder what other milky-looking substance that tech intended to apply to those hammer centers. Is there some magical Kool-Aid out there of which I have yet to partake?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-28-2017 08:34
From: Kent Burnside
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Alan,

A colleague here recently wrote in another forum about accidentally applying VS Profelt (in a mislabeled bottle) to hammer flanges, which resulted in a tightening of the bushings; however, he said that once he repinned them all they stayed consistent for some time.  Might be worth a try for your situation.

------------------------------
Kent Burnside, RPT
Franklin TN
615.430.0653

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:27
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

James,

We VS Pro-felted the balance and front rail key bushings and sized then with appropriate cauls, and glue-sized the balance pin holes. The friction of all of those keystick contact points are exactly where we want them now.

The question is about how to deal with the teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth, as the subject line states.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 13:20
From: James Kelly
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Maybe you should try rebushing with regular high quality bushing cloth on some samples. If the key balance pin holes are too loose as well as the key bushing cloth I would try to glue size the balance holes as well as rebush some sample keys. It may also be worth testing out the touch rail system that Scott Jones has to see if it could be a solution.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2017 11:10
From: Alan Eder
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.)

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Hi, Alan,

I think your best bet is to experiment yourself with your particular parts. I wouldn't assume that all parts respond the same way. Most of my experience has come working with Tokiwa and Renner parts and to give you an example: I find that the loosest pinning in new parts is the repetition lever. A new set measures about 0 grams in my experience. I like to see what happens after 3 days. I can often repin from a size 20 to a size 21 to come out with a torque of 5 grams the next week. It doesn't take that long to find out how your own parts respond. I also like both sides of the flange to be equally tight, but I'm not sure how accurately that works out. I test by feel. Does anyone have a better solution for that particular problem?

Bob Anderson
Tucson, AZ


Original Message------

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.) 

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

The more I hear about trouble getting various types of cloth-with-lubricant to maintain friction, the more it seems to me I'd better get really good at rebushing centers. If an offending substance is no longer present, it will cause no more trouble.

If you want something done right, learn to do it yourself ...

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2017 15:40
From: Robert Anderson
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi, Alan,

I think your best bet is to experiment yourself with your particular parts. I wouldn't assume that all parts respond the same way. Most of my experience has come working with Tokiwa and Renner parts and to give you an example: I find that the loosest pinning in new parts is the repetition lever. A new set measures about 0 grams in my experience. I like to see what happens after 3 days. I can often repin from a size 20 to a size 21 to come out with a torque of 5 grams the next week. It doesn't take that long to find out how your own parts respond. I also like both sides of the flange to be equally tight, but I'm not sure how accurately that works out. I test by feel. Does anyone have a better solution for that particular problem?

Bob Anderson
Tucson, AZ


Original Message------

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.)

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Hi Bob,

Thanks for weighing in!

Sometimes when we repin repetition levels, we do it "on the hoof," so to speak. Without removing the wippen from it's rail, we lift each one up and push the existing center pin half way out. The we push in the new, larger pin, which chases the old one out. That is a quick method, but does not address whether or not the two sides have more or less the same amount of friction.

For situations in which we decide to remove the wippens, we repin the rep. levers following a protocol close to what we do with hammers. (When extensive centering of the jacks in the repetition lever windows is in order, for instance, and we are either using heat or bending the rep. lever center pins rather than bending the jack center pins, which can be done in situ). In the case of the rep. lever, with the new center pin in only one of the bushings, the wippen body should swing 1½ times when released from vertical. (Our target friction is 5-8 grams, although somewhat more than that has not been a problem.) So far, this has worked for all of the different makes of wippens we have serviced in the past several years.

Happy New Year,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2017 15:40
From: Robert Anderson
Subject: teflon impregnated action center bushing cloth

Hi, Alan,

I think your best bet is to experiment yourself with your particular parts. I wouldn't assume that all parts respond the same way. Most of my experience has come working with Tokiwa and Renner parts and to give you an example: I find that the loosest pinning in new parts is the repetition lever. A new set measures about 0 grams in my experience. I like to see what happens after 3 days. I can often repin from a size 20 to a size 21 to come out with a torque of 5 grams the next week. It doesn't take that long to find out how your own parts respond. I also like both sides of the flange to be equally tight, but I'm not sure how accurately that works out. I test by feel. Does anyone have a better solution for that particular problem?

Bob Anderson
Tucson, AZ


Original Message------

Hi All,

The subject line would have been even longer if it included the problem (allegedly) encountered with same.

Steinway D, less than five years old. Original action parts manufactured by Steinway New York. Complaint was that the action was too light. (And this from a world-class pianist and highly sought-after teacher, who has much more knowledge about how the darn thing works than the do the vast majority of his peers.) Static Touch Weight measurements were not too far off (and the hammers were not too hard, which can contribute to the perception that the action is lighter), but key bushings and balance holes were too loose, as were 90% of the hammer flange action centers. Dealt with the keystick contact points. There was evidence that many of the hammer centers had already been repinned, and yet were still unacceptably loose. The technician who normally services this instrument confirmed that this was indeed the case. (Our normal working spec is five swings of the hammer when dropped from horizontal while holding the flange still at vertical, with the amount of friction on each side either identical or close to it.)

So, what I want to find out is this: Have others had the experience of repinning these kinds of parts (to reduce friction to similar, optimal condition), only to have them promptly loosen up again (and I don't mean a little, but to 10, 20, 30 and more swings)? We have repinned the hammer centers and were cautioned by someone with much more experience with these parts than I have that they will just loosen up all over again. Gosh, I sure hope those hours of repinning were not all for naught.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------