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Tuning from A0

  • 1.  Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2017 16:15
    Dr. Sanderson arrived at this method empirically. He tuned a bunch of pianos and measured how things changed. His conclusion was that it was more stable after tuning from A0, all strings along the way, than from the middle. 

    Tuning aurally (which I did for 17 years), we have to start in the middle to establish a temperament. Multiple passes are necessary to arrive at stability. The end result is stability, and I don't think either method is necessarily superior over time. Personally, I'd rather do fewer passes, take less time, and make more money. 

    As to why it works, I would say it has to do with how we add a load to the structure of the piano. Tuning one string per note we are adding a partial load to the system. On the second pass, we are adding the rest of the load to a system that has already changed from the first pass. I think of this being like tightening wheel lugs. It is done in a star pattern in multiple passes to bring the entire wheel into solid contact all around the drum or plate.

    Tuning from A0 is more like adding a load to a bridge, starting at one end, adding all the weight incrementally until you reach the other end. The bridge will settle as you go, and by the time you reach the other end the rest of the bridge has settled as far as it will go. Tuning aurally is as if we add 1/3 of the weight to the bridge, starting in the middle and working toward the ends. It will settle some, but not all of the way. The second pass will bring it the rest of the way. The engineering question is, which way will distort the bridge in the best way for the materials and the design.

    The structure of a piano flexes as we tune. If it weren't so, pitch raising wouldn't be necessary. The question is how to handle that flexibility. 

    I heard this in one of Dr. Sanderson's  classes just before the SAT happened. He was in the process of finalizing his FAC method.  Based on his experiments he found the structure of the piano works this way: Tune from the bottom up. It is one of the reasons I was looking forward to the day an ETD got smart enough for me to want to use it.

    ------------------------------
    David Stocker, RPT
    PNWRVP
    Olympia WA
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2017 16:51
    David, I respectfully disagree. I believe that it is tuning unisons as you go that leads to the stability. And checking back with intervals to see if any unisons are wavering.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-13-2017 08:07
    Just to be clear, Larry, I'm not sure where you're  disagreeing with David.  Sounds like you both recommend tuning A0-C8 and tuning unisons as you go.

    Gary Bruce
    Registered Piano Technician
    CLICK HERE to schedule your next piano tuning.

    405-285-8324 (store)
    405-413-8863 (cell)
    BruceMusicStore.com

    We would love for you to connect with us!





  • 4.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-13-2017 09:10
    Larry,

    I know for a fact that the Doc was also a proponent of tuning unisons as you go. (TUAYG)

    He also arrived at this empirically. 

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-13-2017 20:15
    I've heard this argument from both sides before. In the end it comes down to: how much you trust the machine?

    My mentor recommended tuning from the bottom up, after you verify the program. How do you do that? Tune A3 and A4 to the machine. If it gives you a good octave, then the tuning will be good. If not, reprogram the device. I've found that, when this is done first, there is really no reason why not to tune from the bottom up, unisons as you go. IMHO, it works well.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2017 01:34
    Larry, sorry if I wasn't clear. Yes, unisons as you go A0 to C8. 

    I put both methods in the same paragraph, that may have left a confusing impression. 


    ------------------------------
    David Stocker, RPT
    PNWRVP
    Olympia WA
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2017 07:13
    Yes David, not clear. I at one timed stripped the hole piano, tuned from A0 up, checked intervals, then brought in unisons.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Posted 09-14-2017 08:46
    I tune with a Verituner. Once all the Ih has been sampled after a few tunings, a tuning can be recalculated to your choice of temperament, pitch and stretch. On saved tuning files I routinely simply recalc the file and tune A0 to C8. The low tenor may be seasonally off, so I'll utilize the overpull feature and it diminishes to about zero usually in the middle of the 4th oct. Once done, I check the low tenor.

    For a pitch correction, I tune A0 to C8; setting the pitch on the VT to reflect the necessary o/p for bass/tenor/treble. I copied a S&S M tuning file and renamed it Pitch Raise. This produces an appreciable tuning on all pianos. Plus, I don't have to wait for the VT to calc an o/p, especially if the pitch is so far off that it is registering a half tone sharp or flat. The VT keeps up with me.

    I find that tuning A0 to C8, unisons-as-you-go, applies tension in a sweep along the bridges and comes out a stable tuning.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2017 09:27
    Jon wrote:
    "I find that tuning A0 to C8, unisons-as-you-go, applies tension in a sweep along the bridges and comes out a stable tuning."

    Nick Gravagne, who has made well over four hundred soundboards, once compared tuning UAYG form A0-C8 to squeezing the air in 
    a ballon. Tuning by ear requires starting the middle which, in the ballon analogy, means the "air" can go in various directions, whereas tuning every string from bass to treble is like starting at one end of the ballon and consistently forcing the air to the other end. If I understand the metaphor correctly, going from bass to treble forces the "air" to the part of the soundboard that is the smallest and stiffest (and, therefore, will change the least), and tuning the strings from those with the greatest amount of tension on them to those with the least.

    I can tell you from thousands of pitch-correction tunings using this protocol with CyberTuner that it works really well. Worth the price of admission in and of itself, I'd say.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2017 10:48
    That does make sense.

    Pwg


    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Posted 09-14-2017 13:22
    For many years I made Cybertuner follow my aural tuning sequence.
    It was only when I began using SmartTune from A0 straight across the piano, unisons as you go, that I realized what a remarkable program this is. For SmartTune you enter the break information about the piano, and the program measured and tracks the pitch adjustment as you go, calculating overpull for each note. The result is almost always ready for a touchup fine tuning.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2017 13:59
    I started using the ETD for pitch raises way back in the Sign-O-Tuner days, i.e., early to mid-1980s. Since I had always struggled with getting a pitch raise to work out aurally (the A always ended up a little flat or sharp) Sanderson's ETD was a God send (or is that god send?). In those days Sanderson said to measure the A4 and for every 4 cents off, adjust the ETD 1 cent the other way. So if the A measured -16 cents, I offset the machine to +4 cents and started from A0 and went to C88 as Sanderson recommended. I hate to admit it, but I haven't really changed my approach even though the machines offer more bells and whistles and can do more calculated offsets. For one thing I get uncomfortable with offsets that are more that 4 to 6 cents sharp. That is, if I measure A4 and it is more than 25 cents flat, I pitch raise twice. The first time results in a piano that is fairly close, but still not close enough to be able to do a fine tuning and maintain stability. Plus the overpull isn't extreme. Since most pianos aren't off by 25 cents even with changes in humidity, one pass usually does the trick. And I have to say that if I wasn't too picky, that first pass would be acceptable to many customers. There have been some emergency tunings that I had to do in 1/2 an hour and that quick pitch raise procedure made the piano usable. 

    You're probably saying I'm too conservative. A 6 cent overpull is still starting with an A that isn't even at A 442, which is 8 cents higher than A 440. And you may be right. But why would I want to break a string on a piano that may not have been tuned in awhile?  Just my take.

    Richard West








  • 13.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2017 14:09
    Okay, make that Sight-O-Tuner, definitely not Sign-O-Tuner. I think Inventronics still services and updates those early models. At least I'm up with the times in that I have the Accutuner III.

    R West





  • 14.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2017 14:35
    Other than on Bosendorfers, you have to go pretty far sharp before a string breaks, but not nearly as far before it becomes distorted beyond it's ability to recover it's original condition (like a clothing item with an elastic band that has been stretched out so much that it cannot return to it's original dimension and degree of elasticity). There is elastic deformation (where the string is stretched to a point where it does not return entirely to it's previous shape) and plastic deformation (= busted!). The default setting (last I checked) on CyberTuner allow for up to 10 cents over-pull for wound strings and 25 cents over-pull for plain wire. Many techs apply these same criteria for how high to pull a new string. So, I would use the ETD calculated over-pull up to one semi-tone flat. Beyond that, I essentially do what you do (one tuning to pitch, then an actual pitch correction, complete with over-pull, eventually followed by a "fine" tuning).

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2017 15:56
    Hi, Alan,

    Thanks for the deformation information. That brings up another question I've had. When I was playing around with scaling formulas some years back, there was a 66% limit on tension at pitch, if I remember correctly. I presume that meant final string tension should not be any higher than 66% of the breaking point of the string. Is that correct and still the case? And what about deformation? Wouldn't the deformation % be as important and how much lower is the deformation %? It seems like deformation would lead to false strings. Then again, if piano strings need to be as high as 66% to sound good, then I guess we have to put up with false beats.

     If none of this makes sense, forgive me. I never got too far with the scaling formulas.  Too much math, even with computers. 

    Richard

     






  • 16.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2017 17:54
    I can tell you this anecdotally: One major manufacturer was initially tuning their pianos 40-50 cents sharp, in order to hasten tuning stability at pitch. However, they were getting lots of false beats. They decided to dial it back to around 10 cents sharp in the bass and 20-30 cents sharp in the treble. It necessitated a little more tuning time, but substantially reduced the number of false beats.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2017 23:34
    <very, very quietly> I don't suppose this major manufacturer had a name ....

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2017 23:53
    I don't know the "major Manufacturer" being referred to, but --

    This rather depend on the scaling of the piano. If the piano is already scaled to a relatively high tension then, yes, I can see where the added tension might well cause a problem. If, however, the tensions on the strings are relatively low I doubt it would make any difference. 

    At issue here is the question of whether or not the manufacturer really has any idea of just what is being built.

    ddf

    --
    Delwin D Fandrich
    Fandrich Piano Company, Inc.
    Piano Design and Manufacturing Consulting Services -- Worldwide
    6939 Foothill Ct SW -- Olympia, WA 98512 -- USA
    Phone 360.515.0119 -- Mobile 360.388.6525





  • 19.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-15-2017 00:04
    Susan wrote:
    "<very, very quietly> I don't suppose this major manufacturer had a name …."

    <even more quietly still> Yes, they do!

    Alan


    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2017 12:20
    Hi Jon,

    A quick question about your post. I've only seen Veritnuer used, and haven't used it myself. 

    When doing a pitch raise with Verituner, do you only make one pass, and it comes out closer enough to justify doing only one pass? Or, as when tuning aurally, do you have to pitch raise, then make another pass to fine tune?

    I know CyberTuner has this function, but am not sure whether Verituner has it as well.

    Thanks,

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Posted 09-14-2017 13:21
    If there is not a pressing need for fine tuning, as in a party or performance; I'll recommend a follow up tuning within a certain period.

    I've p/r'd a piano a half step (A0-C8) and came out with an appreciable tuning with an OP: 443, 446, 449. But usually I'll have to go back over from the 5th oct up. I feel it is up to the owner to have the piano serviced regularly. I don't want to go to great lengths only to have it neglected again for years.  If they call back, fine; if not, I've not wasted my time.

    Yesterday, I needed to prep an SD10 for a big performance this weekend. The piano is in a High School and probably wasn't tuned since I did it last in April for another show. The piano was at about A444. Knowing that this piano doesn't need much OP (10% max); i started at A0 at 440.
    At F2 I set it to 10% op and went on dropping the tension up to C8. I only needed to touch up a few notes in the middle of oct. 5 & 6. This is for rehearsals with tuning on Saturday afternoon for the John Pizzarelli and the Cape Cod Symphony performance. The piano is in ensemble.
    https://www.capesymphony.org/tickets/2017-18-season/2-unforgettable

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Posted 09-14-2017 13:33
    I am only comfortable using the op function on pianos I have already tuned and recorded their Ih; knowing pitch is relatively consistent. On an unknown piano that needs a pitch correction, a unison might have three different pitches. Or one note might be a lot lower/higher. So depending on which one is selected, op will be from that pitch. The 'bounce back' is not conditional on individual note but as a section. Unless a program has a function of note averaging then pulling all notes to the same op is best.

    So if a piano is 20c flat, I start at A0 +2c, tenor +4c, treble +6c; as an example. The Pitch Raise file comes in real handy.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Posted 09-16-2017 15:26
    As a follow up on this A~C pitch correction. I tuned it today. After the pitch change, everything was fine except for a few notes that needed touchup, as mentioned. Today, A~C again, the bass and low tenor were within 1c, if not spot on. The high tenor had crept sharp 2c (the extra 10% op that I did not add). The high treble was sharp 4c (the extra 20% I did not add) because I tuned only to a 10% OP overall. This shows to me that the tuning does change in the days following a pitch correction due to the string frame reacting to the compression difference. Initially, it was fine... but then it changed.

    Had I gone over everything a second time on Wednesday, thinking I'm really doing  good job and stabilizing the tuning; it would still have been off to the same degree. You can't fight physics.  I don't need that warm, fuzzy feeling of pretending there will be no reaction.

    In the short run, a 10/23/30 Op would have needed another pass but if left would have been fine today. By tuning a 10% Op, the piano was fine for rehearsals. For fine tuning, I'd rather lower pitch a few cents than raise it.

    What I like about the VT is its customizability. I have 5 stretches that I devised and prefer. A few other tuners have their own styles/stretches.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    >Yesterday, I needed to prep an SD10 for a big performance this weekend. The piano is in a High School and probably wasn't tuned since I did >it last in April for another show. The piano was at about A444. Knowing that this piano doesn't need much OP (10% max); i started at A0 at >440. At F2 I set it to 10% op and went on dropping the tension up to C8. I only needed to touch up a few notes in the middle of oct. 5 & 6. 

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-16-2017 16:33
    Bill,

    I was thinking that Steve's record was 9 minutes and some change. Could be wrong though.

     Harry's,  I thought was about 15 minutes for a pitch raise and tuning together. I recall that since Harry worked at Everett he knew intimately how that specific piano would react in a pitch raise which of course gave a slight advantage over a strange piano never before seen.

    The claim with both these guys was that the tuning would score at least 80% on the exam.

    Yat Lam Hong was another one who wrote quite a bit about efficiency in tuning. That was where I learned the tuning tip alignment trick. An old factory tip. Muting every other unison with the strip is another way to speed up unison tuning. I recall his series: "How in tune is really in tune?" Lots of good meat in that.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-15-2017 10:33
    "When doing a pitch raise with Verituner, do you only make one pass, and it comes out closer enough to justify doing only one pass? Or, as when tuning aurally, do you have to pitch raise, then make another pass to fine tune?"

    Hey Ben,
    Granted, I'm still in pitch-raise kindergarten, but I don't see how I could ever get away with one pass on a pitch raise, or even just one pass and a fine tuning. As Jeff Hickey has pointed out, raising a pitch significantly can put a couple of tons of pressure back on a piano.

    I think it depends on several factors: what's the piano? How low is it? I've been doing lots of pitch raises lately for some reason--it seems like almost every piano--and there is definitely a difference between raising a Yamaha U1, which was easy to raise and very stable, and most of those older spinets, which are a nightmare. In fact, Susan's 100-proof vodka would be come in handy here, and not for voicing...

    I'm still learning the art of pitch raising. I think my pianos come out pretty well in the end, but it takes way too long. This discussion on whether to start from A0 is timely for me, and I'll start trying it to see whether it makes a difference in first-pass stability. 
    Scott

    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole
    Talent OR
    541-601-9033
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Posted 09-15-2017 11:19
    What is your method?
    What are your tools?

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Posted 09-15-2017 11:30
    On a pitch adjustment, I'll tell the owner that the piano is now in a position to be tuned. That usually startles them, I then proceed to point out that the string frame will be reacting to the added compression and the backscale may lend to some drift over the next few days. I use an analogy of, you can't wax a dirty floor; or you can't wax a dirty car. We just washed it (or swept it as the case may be).

    One pass w/ OP more often creates an appreciable tuning and few follow up on my recommendation for another tuning. They're happy and I didn't waste my time.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-15-2017 13:51
    I'm sure this is old news for most of us but, to me, this process begins on the phone before ever seeing the piano.  When they answer my question about how long since the piano was tuned I immediately drop them into one of several "neglect buckets"...

    "Okay, so we're looking at making up for mild neglect (or moderate, serious, really serious...you get the idea). I do this in a somewhat jocular way, not an accusing way. I'll have them play enough notes over the phone so I can confirm the extent of neglect and listen for other problems.

    Psychologically this takes the focus off of me (the bad guy because I'm going to charge more) and puts it on them because they neglected the piano and I am now REQUIRED to do this (and I charge by the hour the first time or two) because of what THEY did (or didn't do).

    I'm going to get paid for the work I do. I must allot more time for this appt. I have already ballparked it In the $300-$400 range so they're prepared. (Rarely goes that high). In recent years I have moderated my approach to pitch raise. I no longer even attempt to do it in two passes, OPing 25 or 30%. No...just to pitch or a tad more, then do it again, and then again (unless it really needs another appt, which they already know before I start). I make sure I get paid well enough that I don't have to overbook myself to the point of exhaustion...i can relax and smile.

    I am pretty quick anyway so the first pass only takes 20 min...next pass a little more...third pass much like a normal tuning, talk about humidity control, cup of coffee (if they offer).  I emphasize that if they install a humidity control system and maintain it we will never have to do this again. Otherwise it will be a continual battle with raising pitch, lowering pitch, etc, for which they will need to pay me. Much better to tune the thing once a year with HCS. 

    Of course YMMV. Here talking about reasonably serious neglect obviously.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Posted 09-15-2017 16:11
    The difference is being service oriented or income oriented.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-15-2017 17:32
    I am sure there is someone waiting for someone to say, "I would never tune a piano from A0".  Well, here I am.  I have read all of the comments, yes and I appreciate both the fact that Dr. Al Sanderson arrived at the conclusion empirically (I actually talked to him personally about it) and sessions about the Reyburn Cybertuner include how it works on "Mrs. Jones Wurlitzer spinet in the Smart Mode".

    It, frankly, is just contrary to the way many a person who had learned to tune a piano by ear would ever want to do or even think of doing.  As they say, "There are always two ways to skin a cat."  Although I have used an SAT type device for about 25 years (and it is the only electronic device in which I am interested, despite all claims of how any other kind of platform may be somehow better, they would not be "better" for me), I do not tune the wound strings according to any electronic program, period.  Please forgive me if I prefer to tune them exclusively by ear.

    Since I first saw a demonstration by the late George Defebaugh and Jim Coleman, Sr. at a convention before I was ever a Member of PTG, I have a method that works for me.  Most often, it takes me about 45 minutes to tune a piano and that is with tuning every one with two passes.  In my view, if you are trying to tune almost any piano with one pass, you are making it harder and therefore more stressful on yourself, wasting your time and the results will not be what you intended or as stable as they would be if you recognized what happens in any piano from spinet to concert grand.  You can tune any piano a lot more accurately, less stressfully, a lot more stably and a lot more quickly than you can fight with it once.  The key to making it work is to understand what is happening and what will happen as you go and to work accordingly.

    I see a lot of arguments against strip mutes but those are from people who only want to do one pass.  I already know what is going to happen when I tune the unisons after the first pass.  Can you really claim that the "tuning unisons as you go" is "better" when you have to go and fix whatever did not hold (in your cursory exam of it)?  Does each and every pitch really hold according to the program?  How much time does it take after you believe that you successfully tune the piano "one time" to actually fix what did not actually hold, unisons as you go?

    The major problem I have with tuning from A0 is that you have absolutely nothing to aurally verify until you reach, at least the 3rd octave but what I see from these posts is that no one wants to go back and actually change anything.  The mad minded goal is to do the whole thing one time and be done with it, even if you have to go back and fix a lot of what didn't hold, you can still claim to yourself that you did it one time.  Whatever the results are, they are "good enough" for that particular situation.  That, I fear, quickly spreads to every situation.

    I never have, nor will I ever tune a piano from A0.

    ------------------------------
    William Bremmer
    RPT
    Madison WI
    608-238-8400
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-15-2017 18:43
    Hi Bill, 

    Reading your post, I had a few observations:

    1. You claim that tuning in two passes is more stable and easy than by tuning in one pass. I believe this has been called "rough and refine tuning" before. In your opinion, what makes this method easier than a single pass, and why do you recommend it over a single pass tuning that takes twice as long as each "quick pass"?

    2. If I understand the rough and refine method, it involves tuning only those intervals that are standing out on the second and/or third passes. On the final pass, it's pretty much minor touch up work, Correct?

    3. You say you can tune a piano in 45 minutes with two passes? How do you tune that quickly and still get results that you can put your name on (without asking them not to tell others)? (I guess I'm interested in learning that technique.)

    Thanks,

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-15-2017 19:19
    Hi, Bill

    <<The major problem I have with tuning from A0 is that you have absolutely nothing to aurally verify until you reach, at least the 3rd octave but what I see from these posts is that no one wants to go back and actually change anything.>>

    You noticed that too? <grin>

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Posted 09-16-2017 07:54
    <<The major problem I have with tuning from A0 is that you have absolutely nothing to aurally verify until you reach, at least the 3rd octave but what I see from these posts is that no one wants to go back and actually change anything.>>

    The Verituner works differently than what techs are used to or have preconceived notions about. The VT samples and stores the Ih of a piano in its own dedicated file. So once the entire piano is sampled a tuning is calculated and the note pitches are then determined by the parameters you chose such as pitch, temperament and stretch. The sampling process begins on A4, then A3 to C8. Then from A3 down. Just as one would aurally. But once all the IH sampling is stored, a recalculation sets each note. You can tune from the middle out, top down, bottom up.

    A one pass tuning, even with overpull can produce an appreciable tuning. Keyword: appreciable, it is not a fine tuning. Not every piano needs to be a fine tuning either for expected seasonal changes or expectations of the owner.

    More later, have to run out and bring my rental grand back.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Posted 09-16-2017 13:02
    Suggested article:
    "Scientific Pitch Raising" by Dr. Albert E. Sanderson from June 1977 issue of the Piano Technician's Journal.

    ------------------------------
    Sam Lewis
    Sam Lewis Piano
    White Bluff TN
    615-417-7007
    ------------------------------


  • 35.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-15-2017 22:34
    Bill, go right on doing what you're doing. No need to ask forgiveness from me for aural tuning. My experience has always been that if the piano doesn't start out being fairly closely in tune, it's going to move around and fight you the whole way. My take is that if A4 doesn't start out being plus or minus no more than 4 cents, then there's going to be trouble. (I guess we don't know what's moving, soundboard or plate. That's another discussion). The times that I've tried to sneak in a one-pass tuning on a piano that was off more than 4 cents, I'd soon regret it. 

    Yes, there are some who will claim that the current ETDs are so good that one pass is good enough, even if the piano is off 5 or 10 or 15 cents or more. I have trouble agreeing with that. Although I have to admit, that's what happens when ETD examinees take our test.  If tuning from A0 to A88 in one sweep didn't work, our ETD examinees wouldn't pass. Our exam wouldn't be good enough measurement of competence. Is that what you're really saying?

    In terms of using the ETD to pitch raise, sweeping from A0 to C88 works. I've done it more times than I can count. It's a life saver. After a one-pass pitch raise, A4 usually is within one cent. That's a great starting point.

    We can agree on being stubborn, Bill. One pass as final pass? I have trouble with that. But realize when you say, " I never have, nor will I ever tune a piano from A0." that you might be missing something. And I don't believe my saying that will change your personal choice, nor will your statement necessarily change my choice . Just be careful what you imply. Performing that sweep tuning is not a gateway to bad tuning. It can actually be the gateway to a better tuning.

    Richard West








  • 36.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-16-2017 04:31
    I'm not sure how Jon meant that but I think I know what he meant and if I inderstand correctly, I agree. 

    I don't approach appointments with the idea of maximizing my profits but rather providing the best service for the customer at a fair price. I can't imagine why I would quote 2.5 times my standard rate for a pitch raise even under pretty extreme circumstances. A standard tuning takes about 45 minutes. A pitch correction if within 10-15 cents adds no extra time really (rct, smart tune mode plus second pass check--which is standard on all tunings). Even a 100c correction adds no more than 30 - 45 minutes, total 90 minutes: base fee plus .5 hours (all on my website if interested). I've never had to make two trips to get a piano back to pitch. Could I take longer? Sure, I could spend all day if I wanted to, maybe two days, but I don't want to work that way.

    While tuning the piano I assess its needs, voicing, regulation, etc, I will take care of small things but otherwise I make my recommendations, offer to schedule a follow up appointment if they want (most of the time they do), and I go to my next appointment.  Often I come to pianos that haven't been serviced in years and the pitch and condition isn't really that bad. I always recommend regular service depending on their goals and expectations but I don't take it upon myself to put them in a category or artificially punish them for neglecting to tune their piano often enough.

    On pianos that haven't been serviced in awhile or even if I haven't seen them before I don't quote other than my basic fee and hourly should it run beyond. I offer a brief explanation about the kinds of issues that might result in additional costs and that's it.

    The best thing you can do for your business is to provide quality service at a fair price and get people to trust that you have their interests in mind. You are never *more* important than the customer.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-15-2017 19:11
    Scott, condolences on going through pitch-raise boot camp. Most of us are veterans of it.

    What works best, IMO, is to make the first pass as quickly as you possibly can, yet have it reasonably accurate. It's a good skill to build up, and kind of fun, actually. (Just one little whack out toward the end of the tuning hammer -- was it just the right amount of whack? Why, yes! Move ON!) I think that the way most beginners go wrong is by paying too much attention to getting the first pass just right. It only has to be right enough that the pressure on the bridges and the bends in the wires have changed. You're going to do them all again anyway.

    For crummy spinets, I don't like to do much overpull, especially on the first pass. Breaking a string can throw your time right out the window, and it's a pain. Many spinets are getting pretty old and have rust problems and the wire sometimes gets stuck at the bearing. Be sure your first motion is downward -- just enough that you can hear the pitch change.

    People seem to be allergic to extra passes, but I find that they increase my speed considerably. Two quick passes, maybe three on the most horrid spinet, then a quick cruise past to find strays. And I always explain to the customer that to get the piano stable he or she should get it tuned again in six months. I can go over it enough in one sitting that it sounds much better, but it's still in motion.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 38.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-16-2017 01:25
    Benjamin,

    See what Susan says.  She largely covers it.  But let's also look at the claim that a piano can be tuned twice in 45 minutes.  Before we do that, however, ask yourself how could a person make a living by tuning every piano poorly and unstably, have decades long repeat customers and get most business from personal referrals, have schools, concert halls and tech colleges use the same services for decades, be on sets of live performances where time is of the absolute essence (the techies are all waiting, they have more work to do after I finish and the show will start soon), the room is only available for a limited amount of time, there are other appointments to get to, there are other issues with the piano to address, etc., ?  The answer is that it only takes as long as it takes and nothing more.

    Let's look at some of the logistics.  In 45 minutes, there are 2,700 seconds.  The average piano has 230 strings (I have never actually counted the number of tuning pins on any piano but I have heard that figure, so I will take it for sake of comparison).  If the entire piano is tuned twice in 45 minutes, that means there are 460 pins to be addressed.  That means that each tuning pin would have a very comfortable (if you ask me), 5.9 seconds to get the string to pitch and have it be stable.

    I can recall, in the orchestra pit of a show where I was an on stage singer and actor (Cole Porter's, "Anything Goes"), tuning the Kimball Studio piano twice in 25 minutes.  1,500 seconds, 3.3 seconds per pin.  I also tuned a Kawai RX-5 on stage (techies waiting, more to do and the show time approaching as I described, piano off pitch) in 35 minutes.  2,100 seconds, 4.6 seconds per pin.  These were public performances.  There are many more such examples in my career.  I got the job done in a very short time.  The tuning was stable and accurate and I finished within the time constraints or I had time left to address other issues.

    At the musical theater event, another local technician who attended commented, not about my performance on stage but how the orchestra pit piano sounded so good!  On pitch and in tune with all of the other instruments.  The other event had a local favorite son at the piano, capacity and roaring crowd for a talented young pianist and vocalist.  The piano could not have had a sloppy sounding tuning.  It had the professional sound that a stage performance requires and it was on pitch and in tune with the other instruments on stage, including the electronic keyboards that the pianist used for special effects sounds.

    To put it into perspective, you have to consider Steve Fairchild's World Record event of tuning an entire piano in 5 minutes.  Although that always seemed dubious to me and I did not see the event, I actually learned a lot from Steve Fairchild.  His speed and accuracy were legendary.  5 minutes = 300 seconds.  He did only touch each tuning pin once so that was an average time of 1.3 seconds per pin. Truly amazing!

    In the classes that Steve Fairchild gave, he made a point of saying that part of the time it takes to tune a piano is unproductive.  Whatever time it takes to move the tuning hammer from one pin to the next is unproductive time.  He said that you have to have your eye not on the pin that you are tuning but the next one.  That one statement alone meant a lot to me.

    There are two basic approaches to tuning hammer technique:  the "slow pull" and the "impact" methods.  The novice tuner naturally gravitates to the slow pull method. "I am going to put my tuning hammer on that tuning pin and turn it until I get the pitch correctly."  There are plenty of technicians who do that and only do that.  They also claim that the tuning hammer bit must fit the tuning pin tightly so that the tuning pin movement can be felt.  It takes far more time to move a tightly fitting tuning hammer socket from one pin to the next than it does one that fits loosely.  I have only one tuning hammer with a #3 socket.  Don't ask me or try to tell me that I should use anything else!  It has a 20 degree angle on it and a gear shift type handle.  I like it that way and I use it much like a gear shift.  Also, don't try to tell me that I cannot "feel" the pin move. I do. Much the same as if you try to open a door that seems stuck.  If you you strike the door and it does not move, you know that there is  a dead bolt lock.  If you strike the door and it gives, you know that another strike or two will get it open.

    Two consequences of the slow pull method are that it takes far more time to move the tuning hammer from one pin to the next AND one must then undo all of the torsion that may be put in the tuning pin (particularly if it is a very tight pin).  Then, there are all of the other segments of the piano wire that will have uneven tension upon them that must be reconciled.  This requires, tuning above the desired pitch, pounding the key, then twisting the tuning pin counterclockwise, pounding again and again twisting the pin clockwise in order to do what is called, "setting the pin".  I never even heard of "setting the pin" until several years ago on Piano World Forums and the mention of "feeling the foot of the pin move" and the attempt to leave more tension in the first segment of the non-speaking length of the string than there is in the speaking length.

    When I read all of that, I said to myself, "What?"  For decades before I had read that, I simply put my tuning hammer on a pin, gave it one quick whack and moved on.  In the cases of large pitch raises when the piano had not been tuned in many years, I certainly do not put lube on bearing points (yuck!), I literally "throw" my tuning hammer onto the pin and it automatically impacts the pin counterclockwise, not taking any extra time to do so.

    In the cases where I have raised the pitch, I may instinctively give the pin a slight tug but I also worry about how sharp the piano may go in the next season or if that slight tug may cause the string to actually go sharp upon further playing, not go flat.  I tend to mostly believe in a stable string for the time being.

    Surely, in these cases with rusty looking tuning pins and perhaps strings, I will raise the pitch of each string more slowly and gently than with just one quick whack, but I still use the impact method.  It may seem counter intuitive because if you want to deliberately break a piece of material, you would probably use an impact technique.  But you have to remember that a piano wire is elastic.  If you put your tuning hammer on such a pin and simply start pulling on it, you are far more likely to create more tension than the string can bear between the tuning pin and the first bearing point and the string will break.  An impact type method causes the piano wire to "scoot" past that bearing point.  It also causes every part of the string to move.  I very rarely break a string, even on the largest of pitch raises and even when boosting the pitch to 30 cents by the time I get to the high treble.

    Once again, I would never, in my life, try to perform a major pitch raise on a piano by starting at A0.  I guess I am like Frans Mohr on that.  I would rather quit the business than ever even attempt it.

    It must be realized that what happens between the first pass of the pitch correction phase of a tuning, happens.  I know what will happen.  Not all strings will hold but most of them will.  If, upon the second pass of any tuning, the strings which have stayed in tune and exactly on pitch, do not require any time to correct.  Those that are only slightly off only take a mere second to correct.  That cuts down greatly on the average time for each pin but does leave time for the recalcitrant ones.

    Surely, it takes as long or longer on the second pass but when the first one only took 15-20 minutes to accomplish, there is plenty of time to accomplish the second pass, have it really be stable and accurate in the time that remains before 45 minutes passes.  Add another 15 minutes to that and you have a full hour and you still have a full 30 minutes to address other requirements that the piano may have, including cleaning but also hammer alignment, capstan adjustment (the most often needed and effective point of regulation), talking to the customer, easing the temperament of the barking dog, etc., before 90 minutes are up and there is still 30 minutes to get to the next customer.  Many technicians easily and routinely tune 4 pianos per day that way from 9 AM to 5 PM.

    I am not at all convinced that tuning from A0 has any advantage, whatsoever.  I would never even try it.  I have my own way of accomplishing what I do and I will stick with it.

    ------------------------------
    William Bremmer
    RPT
    Madison WI
    608-238-8400
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Posted 09-16-2017 07:48
    Bill wrote:  "I have my own way of accomplishing what I do and I will stick with it."
    And if I were Bill Bremmer, so would I.
    But unfortunately I am just Ed Sutton, with an average mind and body, struggling, with the help of technology, to stay on the top side of mediocre and keep working. Had my life had gone differently I might have become the virtuoso tuner I once hoped to be, but that did not happen. About a year ago I finally decided to try and master tuning with Cybertuner from A0 up. It took time for me to get comfortable doing that way. My body is happy, and so are my customers. They are not too picky, I guess.
    Perhaps one of my problems is I have been too curious, trying too many ways of tuning.
    To become a virtuoso tuner, it is probably necessary to find your one way and stay with it. 
    And that takes a kind of mind which I don't have. 


    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 40.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-16-2017 11:23
    Hi Bill,
    First, I'd like to say that reading and using your methods for setting a temperament were a great help in my passing the tuning exam recently.

    As to tuning from A0: I think this only applies to tuning with an ETD. I'd be surprised if anyone did that aurally.

    Just yesterday I had to lower pitch on a Pearl River vertical by about 15c. I tried starting from A0 going string by string, and used the Verituner's stock 10/28/36 underpull. I can't say if it was really any more stable. I still needed 2 passes and a final fine tuning.

    I do have to wonder: when someone speed tunes a piano in 5 minutes, does that include unisons? And to what standard? Would it pass the PTG exam? Would a discerning customer be happy with that tuning? And if not, can one consider it a successful tuning?
    Scott

    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole
    Talent OR
    541-601-9033
    ------------------------------



  • 41.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-16-2017 12:12
    Benjamin,

    One little trick to improving speed and efficiency is to align the star of your tip to the handle of your hammer. If you look at your tip, the tip of the star should be perfectly in line with the hammer (not off by a degree or two, but exactly). This way you instantly know, simply by looking at the pin, exactly which way to place the hammer. This one adjustment can save 1-3 seconds per pin. Do the math. As Bill mentioned, as your are working on one pin, your eyes are on the next pin and there is NO fiddling around, and no time wasted to get the hammer on it. This is particularly efficient during a pitch adjustment. And if you learn to keep your hand in one position on the hammer your can improve speed even more.

    Pwg


    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 42.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Posted 09-16-2017 12:16

    To put it into perspective, you have to consider Steve Fairchild's World Record event of tuning an entire piano in 5 minutes.  Although that always seemed dubious to me and I did not see the event, I actually learned a lot from Steve Fairchild.  His speed and accuracy were legendary.  5 minutes = 300 seconds.  He did only touch each tuning pin once so that was an average time of 1.3 seconds per pin. Truly amazing!
    William Bremmer,  09-16-2017 01:24
    I'm sure this included having a nice chat with the customer. ;-)

    As Foghorn Leghorn says, "That's a joke, son!"

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 43.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-16-2017 13:54
    I have tried many times to find some information about that Steve Fairchild legend but cannot.  I am sure it is more than a made up story but I have only heard about it.  However, as I mentioned, I remember the classes he gave.  I also remember the class given at the 1979 convention in Minneapolis which was called, "Speed and Accuracy".  The title in the list of classes caught my eye and the program was a life changer for me.

    I am not suggesting that anyone aspire to tuning a piano in 5 minutes and I can offer no information as to the quality of the tuning that was claimed.  If the average time per pin was 1.3 seconds, one would be hard pressed just to be able to put the tuning hammer on each pin in that amount of time, let alone move it.

    When looking for information about this, I did come across some information about another well known PTG member, Harry Buyce from Michigan.  He was another technician who was known for his amazing speed.  His obituary says that he was also a Guinness record holder.  He was often seen at conventions and seminars until he fell ill.

    http://www.lifestorynet.com/obituaries/harold-buyce.32817

    I do not believe that speed should be the most important goal but there are times when getting a job done as quickly as possible is important.  Not everyone can use an impact type hammer technique successfully.  I honestly don't know how I do it myself.  i just do.  I recall when I was doing some private tutoring, the student struggled with a particular pin longer than there was really time for, so I just reached up, gave the pin a tap and the note went right into tune.  He looked at me an utter amazement.

    Another time, a candidate for a tuning exam went to a room that had a piano reserved for tuning practice during the Yamaha party.  He had the whole piano strip muted as it would be for the exam.  I left him and came back 45 minutes later.  He was still struggling to set the temperament.  It was one of those new, Chinese or South Korean pianos that had very tight, snappy pins.  I watched as he pulled, "snap" (too far), pushed, "snap" (too far) and repeated that several times until I said, "Here, let me try."  I gave the tuning hammer one whack and the note went right into tune.  The candidate through up his hands and said, "I give up!"

    I then said, "Oh come on now.  If one kind of hammer technique is not working, then try another.  Instead of pushing and pulling on the tuning pin, try tapping it."  He did and found that it actually worked.  He went on to tune the rest of the piano easily.  Fortunately, the next day, he passed his tuning exam with mostly superior scores.  He told me that the exam piano tuned smoothly, so he did not have the same problem.

    When Baldwin was still making pianos, Kent Webb gave a mini tech with a Baldwin console, the kind that had those tight, snappy pins.  He showed that the way to manipulate them was with an impact type technique.

    No one is going to be able to just take an idea and then be suddenly be able to tune far more quickly than they used to.  It takes practice but the one thing that anyone can do is cut down on the time it takes to move the tuning hammer from one pin to the next.  Some technicians find that they can use an impact type technique for a pitch raise but they have to revert to the slow pull method for fine tuning.  If that works, then the pitch raise phase of the tuning would take less time.

    ------------------------------
    William Bremmer
    RPT
    Madison WI
    608-238-8400
    ------------------------------



  • 44.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-16-2017 15:14
    Bill,

    Last Monday was our chapters meeting, and this very topic came up. One of the guys there had visited Steve Fairchild's class and had witnessed his speed tuning. According to the gentleman, Steve wouldn't let anyone from the class examine his work. He walked away, in his own words, "wondering what's the point of tuning in 5 minutes if you're too ashamed of the quality to let others check."

    The consensus was to let quality dictate rather than speed. Of course, I know for me there's still room for improvement on speed. I really appreciate the tips you've given about cutting out excess time. I will definitely try and apply them!

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 45.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-16-2017 18:47
    We agree about a lot relating to pitch raises, Bill.

    Unlike you, I don't make an attempt at cramming a whole lot of work into a short time, because I really am not physically able to get through four pianos a day, over and over again, and while I can definitely put on a good burst of speed when I need to, I don't enjoy working in such conditions and I try to avoid them. I have sometimes done four pianos in a day, but even when a lot younger and fitter trying to do that on a regular basis would never have worked for me. So, I live in a place where I can be semi-retired, still do regular tunings at a casual pace, book very lightly, enjoy the right amount of concert work tremendously, and more than make ends meet anyway, even at 71, despite chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia. Choosing the right place, with pleasant people to work for, good audiences, a few good pianos, not much traffic, and an extremely low cost of living can make a tremendous difference in one's quality of life, even as one faces the physical challenges of aging.

    So, there is more than one reason to develop efficient physical habits when dealing with flat pianos.

    Like you, I like to have a little bit of slop in the tuning lever fit, which almost turns it into a subtle impact-lever, as well as improving the speed of changing tuning pins. I use a long extension hammer, which gives me plenty of leverage for a whack or a nudge, large or light, out near the back end. Over the years a very neat-handed economy of motion becomes second nature. The right hand moves from the end of the long extension lever directly, quickly, but without rushing, to the felt wedge mute, moves it to the next note, picks up the tuning lever at the head as soon as the hand leaves the mute, and moves it to the next pin in a very fluid and direct manner. The quick but relaxed motion is also very good for the muscles of the arm and hand, compared to the chronic stress of a slow pull approach.

    I remember a discussion about whether an impact way of tuning caused more or fewer broken strings. The consensus was fewer, and someone talked about it being because an impact "breaks static friction."

    People so universally talk about the time saving of an ETD, but if they are doing slow pull, they've got to bring the note in slowly, look at the cursor long enough to know it has stopped spinning/whatever, and then deal with the torque they have introduced, and then they still have to move the lever to the next note, and move the mute, since they talk about tuning unisons as they go. They may have eliminated one or more passes, but if they have added the time for all these other things, are they really that far ahead by the clock?

    At a class by Jim Coleman, Sr., on different temperaments and octave stretches, after his talk he needed to tune one of the matched uprights before the comparison part of the lecture. He said that we could stay and watch, but only if we didn't say a word. So I did, and I didn't. I remember watching his way of moving. What seemed the most different from what I did back then is that he listened to each tuned note just slightly less time than I would have thought necessary. It was as if he knew he could trust them, while I would still have been wondering if I could.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 46.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Posted 09-16-2017 19:40
    Susan...Lovely paragraph on chosen life style defining your pace of everything...I very much agree. 

    Interestingly, regarding the do it fast take on work...suite yourselves...it fatigues me just thinking about it.

    For myself, having taken my own comfortable and generous time to enjoy each piano, each phase of a rebuild, spend huge amounts of unpaid experimental time on soundboard work and other curiosities of rebuilding, take my time through all my previous  architectural woodworking life, setting a sustainable pace had been a high priority in my life. Throughout my entire career, there were always folks running around like they needed perpetually to get to the bar before it closed. I just watched them all whizzing by while I toddled along enjoying the process.

    On one memorable job, previous to piano life, reproducing historic sash on a high pressure commercial job, I toddled up the scaffold in my usual way, got myself comfortable and started taking my picky-ass scribe measurements, cross-legged, several flights off the ground...taking my sweet time, humming the tune of the day. The union workers were somewhat baffled by me..calling me the "yuppie carpenter" only somewhat jokingly. At one point, a guy in a hardhat came up to me on the scaffold, looked at what I was doing, and said with a quizzical look, "you really enjoy what you are doing...don't you?"...kind of like it was a new concept. I said "yep".    

    Its not like proceeding in this way places one's earning potential at a disadvantage either...one just has to approach it correctly. As Susan said, keep expenses under control, and overhead low, and one can define a sustainable pace for life, at a pace of one;s own choosing. Having proceeded at my comfortable pace (others might call it glacial pace) for my entire career, at 63, I find myself completely out debt of any kind, including children's college debt, living in a beautiful house we custom designed and built together, owning my spacious shop(no mortgage), electricity supplied mostly by the sun, overhead has hit the floor...and working, still at my pace, because I choose to work, not need to work.    

    My son Dave is working with me in the shop..next generation taking over some of the work, like the Steinway action frame rebuilding. He was/is trying to define how he can remain sane in his work life, having come from some other stressful work conditions. Having worked together we have had this "define your work circumstances for yourself chat." Its not something that they sell in corporate-land, so one is on their own to define the parameters of one's work life. He's come to a place, similar to me which very clearly identifies the timing and pace of one's work time, and the comfort, time of day reflecting one's own biorhythms, of one's work time, as probably the most important part of defining a reasonable, sustain-ably paced way to live while you are working.  


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 47.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-17-2017 12:48
    My goodness, Jim, a kindred spirit!

    And in your glacial pace, you have achieved a tremendous amount! Kudos ...

    Strange how the people bringing in the most don't always end up the most solvent. Most people would look at my yearly income and shudder --- yet, with a dab of social security (not even all that much) plus a very light piano schedule, each month sees a little bit more coming in than going out, and I still buy things when I want to, without having to squeeze pennies. That's the other magic way of living: buy good quality, and then look after it all well. And I don't skimp on groceries: nice organic fresh stuff, organic meat, wild-caught but small fish (lower mercury), decent red wine, and really, really good fair trade chocolate. Madecasse ... Swiss ... all 80%, etc. And I do a big number in frozen blueberries (Stahlbush, grown right here, absolutely delicious ... pour a little boiling water over them.)

    http://www.stahlbush.com/

    One thing I hope to do better: get control of the 1/5 acre jungle surrounding my house, and grow salad greens year round, which should be very possible if I just get organized. I found some very nice YouTubes by a British market gardener called Charles Dowding. I think his methods will work very well here. Instead of the "1,000-mile salad" make it twenty feet, and totally fresh, having never seen the inside of a fridge.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 48.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Posted 09-17-2017 17:19
    <really good fair trade chocolate

    vitamin "ch" is non-negotiable...essential

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 49.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-16-2017 13:48
    Hi Scott,

    One thing I've found that helps in pitch raising is to keep in mind when a string will be stable enough for fine tuning, generally within 4 cents. With that in mind, I'm able to calculate an over pull that will place the note within that 4 cent window. 

    I normally start at A0. Most of the time I have to recalculate the over pull every 6 notes or so, or else, as you've found out, you will need multiple passes before stability can be achieved. Of course, there are exceptions, such as the 40 cent raise. But generally, if I recalculate over pull every few notes, it turns out much better. 

    Some me of the ETAs recalculate OP automatically for every note, but I use a SAT, and have to manually recalculate. I'm not sure which ETA you use, but it may help to have it customize an OP if you are just using a generic program.

    Just some thoughts. Hopefully you'll find them helpful.

    P.S. I have seen someone pitch raise a piano about 9 cents with CyberTuner. We checked it aurally and with both CyberTuner and the SAT. That one pass was good enough to leave as a fine tuning! (So it can be done, but only with CyberTuner's Smart Tune mode, as far as I know.)

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    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
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  • 50.  RE: Tuning from A0

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-17-2017 18:52

    <So it can be done, but only with CyberTuner's Smart Tune mode, as far as I know.>


    That is correct.  CT smart tune calculates a trailing average and is incorporating those averages into the sequence as you go.  So tuning from A0-C88 is the only way to insure that a pitch correction will come out close and there is a limit.  It also assumes that there is some continuity in the way the piano is out of tune.  If the piano is out in different directlons, one note flat one note sharp, it will have a harder time and the tuning won't come out as well.  

    SAT will not do this and recalculating every so many notes does not accomplish the same thing.  Also the OP percentages are more practically limited in how they are able to switch and when.  The default settings are not really what is required for a one pass pitch correction.

    The same is true of Verituner.  While you can program the OP % with as many refinements as you want (the RCT OP% is not equal in each section of the piano but graduates as it approaches the struts and in other areas), it still does not make changes with trailing averages.  Only then do you have a reasonable chance of the tuning coming out close in the end.

    I have used each of these machines and experimented with every level of programming for this, I produced an OP% style for Verituner which I published on their site and used when I was using that program (I'm not anymore).  It worked pretty well but because of the trailing average problem it was not 100% reliable.  RCT will produce a tuning using Smart Tune that is very acceptable as a fine tuning as long as the pitch correction is not too far off.  I've used it up to 20c with some success on institutional instruments where the goal wasn't necessarily a concert tuning.  Generally I tune with ST as the default setting so even pianos that are only a few cents off are getting corrected to pitch with OP in mind.  

    In the end I always do a final pass checking octaves and unisons.  



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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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