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How to Clean This?

  • 1.  How to Clean This?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-15-2018 13:52
    Hello All,

    Just wondering if you have any suggestions as to how to clean this action frame? (See attached pictures)

    Now the background: the subject is a Steinway B, 1962, whose owner let the cat urinate all over the insides. They turned a blind eye for years because they were afraid that their last tuner was a psychopath. (Why didn't they call someone else earlier? Who knows?)

    Anyway, they called me last month, and we began work this month. Before I begin to clean, I was wondering if you had some suggestions as to what to use to clean off cat-urine-caused corrosion?

    For the record, this is the least of the damage. All the action parts have to be completely replaced, and I won't even mention the strings and dampers. The soundboard also has to be refinished. Thankfully the keys only had surface stains, and the keyboard felts are surprisingly still good. The only reason I'm not replacing the action frame is because I'm afraid it might change the action geometry. Which leads me back to: any ideas for cleaning it?

    Thanks in advance,

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: How to Clean This?

    Posted 01-15-2018 14:13
    I had a cat pee piano last year. Yamaha cat pee piano on my facebook. Regarding the action, I pretty much replaced everything. I was lucky in that on the action frame only the rear Part was saturated. So I cut it off and made and glued on a new one. Then of course, I had to bed it, which I enjoy doing. Came out in the end quite good. No smells.





  • 3.  RE: How to Clean This?

    Posted 01-15-2018 14:56
    to clean...blast with fine or medium glass bead...assuming the dowels are sound and the solder joints are fine...take a good look. This assuming it doesn't stink. Not sure about stinkiness. Bead will go a good distance at removing the stench I bet, as it removes  tiny, maybe molecular layers from the surface. We have the equipment to blast here if you are not set up to blast.


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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: How to Clean This?

    Posted 01-15-2018 19:47
    Jim, are you still doing the work on those Steinway action frames?

    Definitely check the frame to make sure it doesn't need soldering and new dowels. (Some years ago now, I replaced an action on a B and Jim did great work on replacing the dowels and soldering.)

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    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
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  • 5.  RE: How to Clean This?

    Posted 01-15-2018 21:11
    Hi John, 

    Yes we (my son Dave and I) are still rebuilding S&S action frames. Actually, bringing up the next generation of action frame guys, Dave has for the last two years been through the ridiculously long learning phase of building the frames, and has got the old man beat at this point for pickiness (and that's say'in something).

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: How to Clean This?

    Posted 01-16-2018 03:54
    Use a baking soda blaster or beads as Jom suggested. It will remove a very very fine layer, leaving a fresh surface that you can seal with I thin coat or two of Nikolas lacquer.

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    Philip Stewart
    609-774-7571
    www.njpianoservice.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: How to Clean This?

    Posted 01-15-2018 15:25
    Talk with Dave Schwartz at Cory Products. He's has the info and cures.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: How to Clean This?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-15-2018 15:54
    Benjamin,

    You wrote:
    "The only reason I'm not replacing the action frame is because I'm afraid it might change the action geometry."

    Of course, it will change the action geometry, if the new one keyframe has the balance rail pins in a different location than the original (in which case  you would have to move the balance pin holes in the underside of the keys). If. on the other hand, the new keyframe is 
    identical, then it won't change the action geometry.

    On a 1962 NY Stwy, I would take a close look at the capstan line. There is a chance that it could be improved upon, and now would be the time to do that.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: How to Clean This?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-15-2018 18:43
    Alan, 

    I think he's referring to the action stack frame rather than the keyframe. 

    Benjamin,

    We have used straight ammonia with some success. Cory does have a pee killer product. Have tried it and it also seemed to work pretty well.

    There is also a product called "Anti Icky-Poo" that supposedly uses enzyme action to kill the smell. Learned this one from a rug cleaner. 

    Don't you just love it when people let animals rule their lives? This will be one expensive cat!

    Have fun.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: How to Clean This?

    Member
    Posted 01-16-2018 08:33
    It might be wise to purchase a urine detection kit that uses a black light to track down the urine. Most likely it will be in places all over the piano due to migration. Pee in felt of any kind will be giving off odor for a long time. Check the key frame and keybed plus back action, flanges, key end felt. Assume nothing.

     I had a piano here on which the cats peed all over the pedals and pedal felts. It was an upright but the liquid got into the bottom board.

    I think I wold send the frame out to get it done by Jim and concentrate on the rest of the piano. This could be the piano from hell

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 11.  RE: How to Clean This?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-16-2018 08:42
    I agree with James.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: How to Clean This?

    Posted 01-16-2018 08:46
    I agree also.

    Tell the customer to budget extra for unanticipated stuff also.

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    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
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  • 13.  RE: How to Clean This?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2018 00:10
    There is a an admittedly low tech alternative if you don't have a blaster box, which is to giveth action frame a pass with a fine wire wheel chucked into a hand drill and then go over it off with 3M metal polishing pads--the same stuff you'd clean bass strings with.  Wipe it down with lacquer thinner and then lacquer it.  Replace the action rail cloth with 200 grit wet/dry paper.   

    I doubt that a '62 Steinway would need the doweling replaced but I would give thought to replacing the back rail cloth,  if only because it's more likely than any other part to trap the odor.   If the urine got onto the action frame, how could it not end up on the back rail cloth?

    ------------------------------
    Cecil Snyder
    Torrance CA
    310-542-7108
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: How to Clean This?

    Posted 01-17-2018 05:09
    Cover the hammer rail with 320 grit emory cloth, it's better than paper. Klingspor has 1" rolls which rip in half for a perfect fit.
    https://www.woodworkingshop.com/search.aspx?q=sr00786

    Stick it to the rail with double-sided tape used for plastic window insulating, a hardware store item. Don't forget to also install washers.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: How to Clean This?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2018 10:28
    Thanks Jon,  I like that idea.  And it's gold!  But I want to ask a question about that.  With the wet/dry paper I usually mark it for the holes and then use a paper punch to clip them out.  Will that work on the emory cloth, or do you just use an awl to pierce it?

    One thing like about the paper is that it's thinner in comparison with the original cloth and this gives you a little bit more wiggle room when aligning the hammers to the strings.  I'm guessing Steinway used the cloth originally for the sake of some acoustic benefit which I've never been able to discern.  What's your feeling on that?

    ------------------------------
    Cecil Snyder
    Torrance CA
    310-542-7108
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: How to Clean This?

    Posted 01-17-2018 11:07
    I clean the rails with a wire wheel. Then I use a countersink to clean each screw hole bevel. The thin brass brace in the center of the tenor section can be bent to allow the tape and emory cloth to thread underneath, then straighten back out. The holes are punched with an awl. I do a few at a time because sometimes the cloth will advance a little as the flanges are installed or shift back to front.

     The tape and cloth are the width of the rail. If anything overhangs the edge, it can restrict what little adjustment can be done. The emory cloth allows for more adjustment than the felt. I don't even allow travel paper to extend beyond the edge of the rail too.

    The felt is there for who knows what reason. It's not there for noise reduction because any impact noise it telegraphed thru the screw into the rail. I've seen wax on the felt to stick the flings in place. Felt alone does not lend itself to secure spacing.

    I also install screws between the hammer and let off rails to brace the flexible hammer rail, check the archives.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: How to Clean This?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2018 21:33
    [Long Post]

    Thanks for the suggestions all! I'll try and look into it and see which is most practical for this situation. 

    As far as the smell, the cat pee infested stuff stinks. But some stuff like the back rail felt miraculously escaped a spray down. After vaccumming off the cat hair, it seems to be in pretty good condition. Yes I tried the smell test, with a negative result. 

    Actually, I'm not overly concerned about the smell. This is a private piano, and the owners house smells ... like the piano. Cat mess. So even if I get all the smell out, one won't be able to tell once it goes back home. I plan to get out as much as possible, but with the understanding that there's no way that piano's never going to smell like anything other than cat. And yes, I tried to ask (discretely) if the owner was planning to take the car "to da river," and they said, in fewer words, "heavens no! We love our cat to much to get rid of it!"

    Oh boy! Well, at least I'm getting paid well for this....

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: How to Clean This?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-19-2018 03:21
    I had an animal urine problem just like this.  I used a Scotch Bright pad with ammonia to clean it off, but it was a lot of elbow grease.  Most metal cleaners contain some sort of ammonia and ammonia is an adequate disinfectant for any pathogens that might remain.

    Want more information?  Come to my class on Biohazards In Piano Work class in PA!

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    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------