Pianotech

I was able to get to the droopy pinblock today. 

After removing the drooped wood and action, i was shocked to see what looks like CA glue as the source of the damage to the pinblock. In the photos you can see the white crystallization. I don't think water damage is the cause because i have seen that before, and water stain kind of has its on look to it. Water has a dull look to it, this stain around the pin holes has a shiny look to it. But not a 100%.
What say you?




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I have a piano in my Nuclear Fallout Shelter, and my competitors don't. How silly is that?

chernobieffpiano.com
865-986-7720
------------------------------

Looking at the cracks in the third photo, I wonder if someone tried to restring using oversized tuning pins and a big hammer, and didn't support the block -- possibly with the action still in the piano? Because he couldn't get it back in once the damage was done.

Certainly someone did a real number with something, which might have been CA, or something else, even epoxy, apparently with no effort to see where the excess was ending up. But possibly, instead of causing the damage, it was a feeble-minded attempt to fix it? Take out a loose tuning pin (loose from the total delamination), pour some unknown goop in, drive the pin back in, which pushes the partially hardened goop through to make a little stalactite under the pinblock? Oh, shoot, it still isn't holding! Use more next time!

A miserable fate for a Steinway grand, though presumably replacing the pinblock would get rid of most of the trouble. Only, if that was done to the pinblock, what has been done to the rest of the piano?

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Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
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Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2017 16:25
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Did CA glue destroy this pinblock?

I was able to get to the droopy pinblock today.

After removing the drooped wood and action, i was shocked to see what looks like CA glue as the source of the damage to the pinblock. In the photos you can see the white crystallization. I don't think water damage is the cause because i have seen that before, and water stain kind of has its on look to it. Water has a dull look to it, this stain around the pin holes has a shiny look to it. But not a 100%.
What say you?




------------------------------
I have a piano in my Nuclear Fallout Shelter, and my competitors don't. How silly is that?

chernobieffpiano.com
865-986-7720
------------------------------

Original Message------

I was able to get to the droopy pinblock today. 

After removing the drooped wood and action, i was shocked to see what looks like CA glue as the source of the damage to the pinblock. In the photos you can see the white crystallization. I don't think water damage is the cause because i have seen that before, and water stain kind of has its on look to it. Water has a dull look to it, this stain around the pin holes has a shiny look to it. But not a 100%.
What say you?




------------------------------
I have a piano in my Nuclear Fallout Shelter, and my competitors don't. How silly is that?

chernobieffpiano.com
865-986-7720
------------------------------

Was there any evidence of tuning pins being tapped in such as low coil to plate clearance or tuning pins peeking thru the bottom holes ? Perhaps there was a series of long horizontal cracks and the block just caved after being split due to tapping with no pinblock support. I have never seen a case in which CA glue has ruined a block and have given many pianos an extended life with a ca treated block.  It looks like the ca was poured in quantity and pooled under the plate . the white residue is a fuming reaction of the glue with the air. I treat the entire block with CA when I do my ca repair so that there is a consistency in the pin torque and all strings will hold better. There are cases in which the cracks have spread between the tuning pin holes and you will know when the glue comes up through other holes as you treat a pin. It is a good idea to slide a mirror when the action is out to examine the underside of the block . Perhaps only the middle of the block was treated and the ends not treated resulting in more torque and tension in the middle . maybe the piano was dropped during a move or the piano has been exposed to moisture and high humidity . if it was not the original block maybe it was not fitted properly

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2017 16:25
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Did CA glue destroy this pinblock?

I was able to get to the droopy pinblock today.

After removing the drooped wood and action, i was shocked to see what looks like CA glue as the source of the damage to the pinblock. In the photos you can see the white crystallization. I don't think water damage is the cause because i have seen that before, and water stain kind of has its on look to it. Water has a dull look to it, this stain around the pin holes has a shiny look to it. But not a 100%.
What say you?




------------------------------
I have a piano in my Nuclear Fallout Shelter, and my competitors don't. How silly is that?

chernobieffpiano.com
865-986-7720
------------------------------

Chris,

I highly doubt that CA is the CAUSE of what we see. However, in line with Susan's observations, I suspect more like an attempt to treat a problem though having lack of knowledge as to how to do it properly.

That said, I have had it happen (once) that a tuning pin gets totally frozen (immovable) in the block due to excessive CA application making me think it was going to break. (Finally let go...i think I used heat but can't remember).

It looks like way too much was used here, plus way too much accelerater (causing the foaming). Possibly followed up with a hammer. Possibly someone attempting a repair from info off the internet without knowledge. Obviously no one is fessing up, right?

Well, you'll fix it right this time.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-07-2017 10:42
From: James Kelly
Subject: Did CA glue destroy this pinblock?

Was there any evidence of tuning pins being tapped in such as low coil to plate clearance or tuning pins peeking thru the bottom holes ? Perhaps there was a series of long horizontal cracks and the block just caved after being split due to tapping with no pinblock support. I have never seen a case in which CA glue has ruined a block and have given many pianos an extended life with a ca treated block.  It looks like the ca was poured in quantity and pooled under the plate . the white residue is a fuming reaction of the glue with the air. I treat the entire block with CA when I do my ca repair so that there is a consistency in the pin torque and all strings will hold better. There are cases in which the cracks have spread between the tuning pin holes and you will know when the glue comes up through other holes as you treat a pin. It is a good idea to slide a mirror when the action is out to examine the underside of the block . Perhaps only the middle of the block was treated and the ends not treated resulting in more torque and tension in the middle . maybe the piano was dropped during a move or the piano has been exposed to moisture and high humidity . if it was not the original block maybe it was not fitted properly

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2017 16:25
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Did CA glue destroy this pinblock?

I was able to get to the droopy pinblock today.

After removing the drooped wood and action, i was shocked to see what looks like CA glue as the source of the damage to the pinblock. In the photos you can see the white crystallization. I don't think water damage is the cause because i have seen that before, and water stain kind of has its on look to it. Water has a dull look to it, this stain around the pin holes has a shiny look to it. But not a 100%.
What say you?




------------------------------
I have a piano in my Nuclear Fallout Shelter, and my competitors don't. How silly is that?

chernobieffpiano.com
865-986-7720
------------------------------

Original Message------

Chris,

I highly doubt that CA is the CAUSE of what we see. However, in line with Susan's observations, I suspect more like an attempt to treat a problem though having lack of knowledge as to how to do it properly.

That said, I have had it happen (once) that a tuning pin gets totally frozen (immovable) in the block due to excessive CA application making me think it was going to break. (Finally let go...i think I used heat but can't remember).

It looks like way too much was used here, plus way too much accelerater (causing the foaming). Possibly followed up with a hammer. Possibly someone attempting a repair from info off the internet without knowledge. Obviously no one is fessing up, right?

Well, you'll fix it right this time.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Old CA glue hardens in the bottle.
The clean separation of the pinblock implies failure of the original glue joint.
Some of the white stuff looks like it may have been scraped off by a tuning pin being driven in after a hole was swabbed with glue.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-07-2017 12:59
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Did CA glue destroy this pinblock?

As mentioned in another thread. I was wondering about shelf life of CA glue. What if the technician was using old CA glue that wasn't hardening? Just curious.

After removing a fee tuning pins, there was two circles of rust on them. Can a non hardening CA cause rust? If not, then that would be a sign water was the culprit afterall.

Original Message------

Chris,

I highly doubt that CA is the CAUSE of what we see. However, in line with Susan's observations, I suspect more like an attempt to treat a problem though having lack of knowledge as to how to do it properly.

That said, I have had it happen (once) that a tuning pin gets totally frozen (immovable) in the block due to excessive CA application making me think it was going to break. (Finally let go...i think I used heat but can't remember).

It looks like way too much was used here, plus way too much accelerater (causing the foaming). Possibly followed up with a hammer. Possibly someone attempting a repair from info off the internet without knowledge. Obviously no one is fessing up, right?

Well, you'll fix it right this time.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Thanks Ed,
That all makes perfect sense. So far I have minimal hide glue between the bottom laminate (and what is there is crystallized), rusty tuning pins, and I was able to pull out quite a few bridge pins easily with my fingers , along with other indicators of humidity issues.  As suggested pounding the pins in without support is a possibility, although, this block looks original so - done that way at the factory?
Anyways, i'll get it all fixed.
-chris

------------------------------
I have a piano in my Nuclear Fallout Shelter, and my competitors don't. How silly is that?

chernobieffpiano.com
865-986-7720
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-07-2017 17:24
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Did CA glue destroy this pinblock?

Old CA glue hardens in the bottle.
The clean separation of the pinblock implies failure of the original glue joint.
Some of the white stuff looks like it may have been scraped off by a tuning pin being driven in after a hole was swabbed with glue.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 11-07-2017 12:59
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Did CA glue destroy this pinblock?

As mentioned in another thread. I was wondering about shelf life of CA glue. What if the technician was using old CA glue that wasn't hardening? Just curious.

After removing a fee tuning pins, there was two circles of rust on them. Can a non hardening CA cause rust? If not, then that would be a sign water was the culprit afterall.

Original Message------

Chris,

I highly doubt that CA is the CAUSE of what we see. However, in line with Susan's observations, I suspect more like an attempt to treat a problem though having lack of knowledge as to how to do it properly.

That said, I have had it happen (once) that a tuning pin gets totally frozen (immovable) in the block due to excessive CA application making me think it was going to break. (Finally let go...i think I used heat but can't remember).

It looks like way too much was used here, plus way too much accelerater (causing the foaming). Possibly followed up with a hammer. Possibly someone attempting a repair from info off the internet without knowledge. Obviously no one is fessing up, right?

Well, you'll fix it right this time.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------