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Voicing question #1

  • 1.  Voicing question #1

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2017 22:19
    Customer has a 1918 Weber baby grand. Purchased used from a store, by her father as a gift to her, about 50 years ago. Was played lightly for a couple of years and then went essentially untouched until about a year ago when she started taking lessons. What I have found is that the regulation is quite good and the hammers were obviously reshaped with some skill prior to sale. Had to twist the bass strings to wake them up and today I had to Teflon lube the knuckles to help with uneven touch. Only thing left, now, is some voicing. 

    The hammers may not be original, no way to know, but they are definitely over 50 years old. Only slight and shallow grooves since it has not been played. Piano sounds very harsh and bright. 

    Question: Prior to needling, can hammer felt that is this old be helped with some light filing/sanding to get rid of the old exposed layer and expose some, theoretically, "newer" felt underneath? Or, am I going to find that an old hammer like this is going to be old and hard all the way through?

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 2.  RE: Voicing question #1

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2017 22:52

    The hammers may not be original, no way to know, but they are definitely over 50 years old.
    Geoff Sykes,  09-11-2017 22:18
    A clear sign that the hammers have not been changed (assuming the shanks are original) is to check where shanks come through the bore to the back side of the moulding. If a hammer extractor was used during a replacement of the set of hammers, the butt end of the shanks will show some sign of the pressure applied by the extractor. Another sign of hammer replacement is if the back side of the moulding has its surface "dressed" with a sander, as a point of visual finish. This is part of any factory installation. However, go back 50 years or so, and this point of finish was far less important among "after-market" techs than nowadays.
    Prior to needling, can hammer felt that is this old be helped with some light filing/sanding to get rid of the old exposed layer and expose some, theoretically, "newer" felt underneath? Or, am I going to find that an old hammer like this is going to be old and hard all the way through?
    Geoff Sykes,  09-11-2017 22:18
    You can answer this question, at the piano, with a quick "sample" filing on one hammer, but I think you'll find that going deeper into the felt mass is only going to make things uglier. Reshaping is mainly used to return the strike point to the tip of a curved crown. You may not need to do any further filing if the earlier reshaping was that good. As for needling, I'd start at the shoulders and listen to how the tone responds. I like David Anderson's approach of shoulder needling parallel to the moulding, not radially in towards the hammer's center.

    Have you ever tried steam? Needle-acupuncture really only has a very local effect. Steam is much more global, and in this, more evenly distributed. Don't get your steam from a tea kettle spout. Get a terry cloth face-cloth (or even absorbent paper towel) damp, lay it on the hammer crowns, and apply your hammer iron to that. But again, proceed on the basis of samples.


    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Voicing question #1

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2017 00:48
    William --

    No dimples in the shank ends so probably original. 

    Steam! D'Oh! I even carry rags and a small iron in the big tool bag in my car for just this kind of thing but have used it perhaps once. And it was effective. I think. It was a long time ago. Thanks for the reminder. Definitely the first thing I'll try. And yes, I know not to linger but to steam quickly.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 4.  RE: Voicing question #1

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2017 01:24
    I find that a dropper bottle of 100 proof ethanol ("vodka") gives me better control of how much and where it goes, and it also prevents steam burns. I call it "steam in a bottle." A couple of ounces in a plastic bottle lives in a ziploc bag in my kit. It's also useful to soften glue when extracting broken upright shanks.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 5.  RE: Voicing question #1

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2017 16:31
    Susan --

    When using your steam-in-a-bottle method, I understand that the alcohol evaporates pretty quickly. How long do you have to wait for the water left behind to evaporate to know how effective the treatment is going to be? My thinking has the alcohol carrying the water deeper into the hammer than real steam would, and I understand why that may be good. But it also has me seeing the water left over from real steam drying out quickly enough to give decent feedback almost instantly. Please help me understand the difference.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 6.  RE: Voicing question #1

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2017 20:36
    Thanks, David Love, for such a comprehensive summary. And thanks, Susan for reminding us of alc/water (clinical name for Smirnoff).
    …and it also prevents steam burns.
    Susan Kline,  09-12-2017 01:23
    How does this happen? TIA

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Voicing question #1

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2017 01:33
    A lot of variables here.  As Bill mentioned you can usually tell if the hammers have been changed (if the shanks are still original) by looking at the back of the hammer where the shank protrudes.  But it may not matter.

    First a careful check of the string mating should be done first and I would probably give them a very light filing first.  Moreover make sure that the prevoicing routine is covered and you can save yourself some wild goose chasing.  

    The first goal is impedance matching.  You want the hammer to deliver only as much energy as the board can handle without getting too percussive or harsh.  Older, more reactive boards will require softer hammers, generally, because they tend to produce a stronger more percussive attack and reduced sustain.  The impedance matching phase is to balance the energy delivered from the hammer with what the board can handle.  So you want to be testing with firm blows and then try and determine where the hammer is too hard before you just start stabbing.  If you can easily sink a three needle tool into the shoulder of the hammer (I use the standard routing--not from the side) then the hardness is likely located more directly under the crown.  You can work toward the crown with the three needle tool turned 90 degrees so only one needle is really contacting the hammer and work toward the strike point.  Angle the needles away from the crown so you preserve an upside down triangle (point up) under the crown that is mostly untouched, at least at first.  You can insert the needles on the strike point directly if they are angled out like that avoiding the area directly underneath.  Work carefully with a hammer or two in each section to see how the hammers react and trying to target a sample in each section which you can review with the customer to determine their preference for level.  Keep a mental note of how many insertions and where.  Work one section at a time (I usually start in the temperament area and work out, toward the treble first).  Again, these are relatively firm blows you are testing, trying to create some uniformity at mf - f levels.  After that you can work the crown  with a single needle tool to reduce the attack for pp - mp or a multi needle tool (6-7 needles protruding 2-3 mm from a handmade dowel tool that I have).  

    The second goal is that the tone should get progressively louder and brighter as you increase the force of the blow.  A hammer that still has some resilience (i.e., it springs back quickly to its original shape after compression) will accomplish that.  The faster the hammer springs back, the faster it gets off the string, the brighter the sound, all other things being equal, because of less internal damping.   If the hammer lacks resilience then you won't get as progressive a development in timbre.  Harder blows will get louder but not necessarily brighter.  You often see this on lacquered hammers where the the hammer has little  resilience, or restitution capacity.  You also see that in hammers with dead felt either from age or over needling.  Those hammers tend to be less stable as well. If the hammers are original then the spring in the felt is likely gone as the tension in the felt will have dissipated.  If they are 50 years old that also may be the case and depending on what was put on you may have more or less success in this area.    

    If the hammers are original then the Weber hammers are an american felt hammer with a not very firm pressing.  It's not likely that a lot of shoulder needing will be necessary.  Once the shoulders are open either by manufacturing process or previous needling you don't usually need to revisit that area, with some exceptions.  But, as I mentioned, they are probably somewhat dead at this point anyway.  You will be lucky to simply created a gradient of density that will render them at least acceptable  though not likely that stable.  

    The third goal is to balance the levels from bass to treble so that the treble speaks through the bass and the bass has adequate power without drowning out the treble.  Along with that you will also establish a smooth progression from bass to treble. A dead treble section because of the soundboard will create some challenges and you will have to make a decision as to what your  priorities are.  In these cases I usually focus on the center of the piano to make it as nice as possible and then blend the upper and lower sections as well as I can. Generally, lighter hammers in the treble on old boards are better, in fact lighter and softer hammers work better on older soundboards most of the time for reasons given in goal number one: impedance matching.

    There's really no direct advice that you can be given on a specific piano because the interplay between the hammer and soundboard determines so much of what you can or can't do that you just have to experiment and be judicious and methodical in your approach.  

    Oh, you can get an acceptable even charming result with alcohol or vodka but I prefer  more direct contact with the hammer using needles.

    Good luck.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Voicing question #1

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2017 17:58
    ​Geoff,
    You never mentioned the size of the "baby" grand piano ("baby" is meaningless to technicians) you're voicing, as the length of the strings and size of the soundboard would likely place unreasonable expectations to your voicing efforts. Sometimes technicians may expect grandiose results from a 100 year old soundboard. It is not unheard of to over needle hammers to reduce the disproportionately strong attack from a 100 old soundboard that has a low impedance. A soundboard impedance slowly goes down from the day it leaves the factory, eventually resembling the attack and decay of a banjo. David Love's mention of impedance matching is important for hammer to string, but from string to bridge/soundboard the board impedance must be high enough to resist absorbing the energy too fast and you may find yourself trying to "voice" the strong attack "out", only to find you destroyed the tonal envelope.
    Roger

    ------------------------------
    Roger Gable
    Gable Piano
    Everett WA
    425-252-5000
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Voicing question #1

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2017 18:14
    I would definitely give the hammers a light shoe shine first.

    On Sep 12, 2017 5:58 PM, "Roger Gable via Piano Technicians Guild" <Mail@connectedcommunity.org> wrote:
    ​Geoff, You never mentioned the size of the "baby" grand piano ("baby" is meaningless to technicians) you're voicing, as the length of the strings...
    Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.

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    Re: Voicing question #1
    Reply to Group Reply to Sender
    Sep 12, 2017 5:58 PM
    Roger Gable
    ​Geoff,
    You never mentioned the size of the "baby" grand piano ("baby" is meaningless to technicians) you're voicing, as the length of the strings and size of the soundboard would likely place unreasonable expectations to your voicing efforts. Sometimes technicians may expect grandiose results from a 100 year old soundboard. It is not unheard of to over needle hammers to reduce the disproportionately strong attack from a 100 old soundboard that has a low impedance. A soundboard impedance slowly goes down from the day it leaves the factory, eventually resembling the attack and decay of a banjo. David Love's mention of impedance matching is important for hammer to string, but from string to bridge/soundboard the board impedance must be high enough to resist absorbing the energy too fast and you may find yourself trying to "voice" the strong attack "out", only to find you destroyed the tonal envelope.
    Roger

    ------------------------------
    Roger Gable
    Gable Piano
    Everett WA
    425-252-5000
    ------------------------------
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    Original Message------

    ​Geoff,
    You never mentioned the size of the "baby" grand piano ("baby" is meaningless to technicians) you're voicing, as the length of the strings and size of the soundboard would likely place unreasonable expectations to your voicing efforts. Sometimes technicians may expect grandiose results from a 100 year old soundboard. It is not unheard of to over needle hammers to reduce the disproportionately strong attack from a 100 old soundboard that has a low impedance. A soundboard impedance slowly goes down from the day it leaves the factory, eventually resembling the attack and decay of a banjo. David Love's mention of impedance matching is important for hammer to string, but from string to bridge/soundboard the board impedance must be high enough to resist absorbing the energy too fast and you may find yourself trying to "voice" the strong attack "out", only to find you destroyed the tonal envelope.
    Roger

    ------------------------------
    Roger Gable
    Gable Piano
    Everett WA
    425-252-5000
    ------------------------------


  • 10.  RE: Voicing question #1

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2017 20:39

    A soundboard impedance slowly goes down from the day it leaves the factory, eventually resembling the attack and decay of a banjo.
    Roger Gable,  09-12-2017 17:58
    Love this <G>!

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Voicing question #1

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-13-2017 09:23
    👍👍 on Roger's comment!

    Which is why the actual DESIGN lifespan of a good piano is less than 40 years. 

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Voicing question #1

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2017 01:01
    I don't agree with that. There are a lot of factors that determine the functional lifespan of a soundboard assembly not the least of which is the environment in which the piano resides. There's no reason that an assembly can't be constructed to last more than 40 years.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Voicing question #1

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2017 11:15
    David,
    Peter's comment about a 40 year life span is certainly a nebulous number that potentially would open up a protracted debate as to the practical limits of a soundboard. As a purveyor of performance pianos, a 40 year piano is certainly out of the question for performance use, yet most of us tune 40 year old pianos in homes that is quit suitable for a beginner. I occasionally have demands of performers refusing to play on pianos that are more than 10 years old. I'll never forget the comment by the London Steinway technician who noted that after 5 years there is a noticeable decline in the soundboard response after 5 years. Since then I've taken notice on my rental pianos and conclude that he is correct.
    Roger



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  • 14.  RE: Voicing question #1

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-14-2017 14:54
    Design lifespan is different from functional lifespan. True with every manufactured item.

    Considering that once the instrument leaves the factory the manufacturer has no control over it, and that the technology is basically 150+ years old, and that it is LIKELY to be subjected to extremes that the designers know full well will degrade the capability of it to perform, and that the design itself is stressful to the structure, and that if it is used in accord with its design it will degrade...etc, etc.

    How long is the warranty from the best makers? What does that tell us?

    Duh...of course we hang on to our pianos much longer than intended by the designers and makers. We also do that with cars, furniture, appliances (to the degree we can outsmart the obsolescence built into them). How long is a car DESIGNED to last? 3-10 years? Some of us still drive cars 25 years old with 300,000 miles or more on them. Yes, we can make them last, but they are not as good as new. They have degraded from the point of DESIGN lifespan. Yes, their functional lifespan can be much longer, but it requires meticulous maintenance way beyond what the manufacturer INTENDED. They intended us to jun it and buy a new one. Hah!

    This is the basis for the 40 year (actual is probably more like 25 years, but let's not quibble) DESIGN lifespan statement. If anyone has data to argue that, I'm open minded, I don't need to lock myself into that. I'm going by what I see, experience, and my acquired knowledge of manufacturing. That's all. 

    The idea that pianos are built to last forever (or a 'lifetime') is pure advertising propaganda for the sales floor and print ads.

    Sorry if reality hurts.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Voicing question #1

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-15-2017 01:35

    Really, no need to apologize, I'm not emotionally invested.  

    There are many design variables some of which lead to shorter expectations for soundboard life.  Steinway processes which are also used by some other manufacturers and have been discussed endlessly, stress the elastic limits of the instrument more than most.  But that's not the only option nor the only design features being employed.  I trust that won't be too painful an idea to swallow either.  



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Voicing question #1

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-15-2017 02:01
    Going back to David's original comment"

    "I don't agree with that. There are a lot of factors that determine the functional lifespan of a soundboard assembly not the least of which is the environment in which the piano resides. There's no reason that an assembly can't be constructed to last more than 40 years."

    I agree. There is no reason why a soundboard assembly can't be constructed to (reliably) last more than 40 years. Some, obviously, already achieve that goal. But, it's hit-or-miss. Whether this longevity is by design or by accident is a whole other question. 

     A 40-year soundboard system has never been a goal of either (most) piano designers or manufacturers. The bottom line criteria here is, "Can it make it through the warranty period without cracking and costing us money?" Performance is a whole other (and unwanted) issue.

    Yes, it can be done. But it will take some effort on all sides. In the short term we have laminated wood soundboard panels. They are, obviously, not yet perfect. But they are gaining ground and could gain more if we could overcome the resistance of piano technicians to anything out of the traditionally ordinary. 

    Beyond this, there are a variety of composite materials that hold promise. But it will take a concerted effort on the part of everyone involved in the industry to bring any of them into regular service. 

    ddf


    --
    Delwin D Fandrich
    Fandrich Piano Company, Inc.
    Piano Design and Manufacturing Consulting Services -- Worldwide
    6939 Foothill Ct SW -- Olympia, WA 98512 -- USA
    Phone 360.515.0119 -- Mobile 360.388.6525





  • 17.  RE: Voicing question #1

    Posted 09-12-2017 17:38
    If hammers have been reshaped, check for overstriking by shortened hammers.
    Just lifting the front edge of the action will let you test the sound when the hammers are moved away from the capo bar.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------