Pianotech

Just curious of anyone uses software to work up a rebuild cost estimate at the time of evaluation in the home while doing inspection? That would certainly save time not having to transfer all the info to an estimate proposal to the client. Just curious how others do their rebuilding estimates.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
------------------------------

John,

It depends on what they are looking for, i.e. a quick (global) ballpark estimate, or a more detailed specific one.

I've done this enough times so that I know approximately where things will end up. For ballpark I break it into thirds...$8k for action, $8k for belly, $8k for finish, or 9/9/9 if a 6.5 or 7 footer...more for special and/or unusual stuff. Then I explain that if they're serious we do a detailed estimate (for which I get paid of course). This usually tells me if they are serious or not.

Detailed estimate is basically drawn from records of previous jobs and adjusted for the specific piano at hand. Almost always comes out more than I ballparked.

I have spreadsheet estimates saved on my computer going back 20 years. If that qualifies as software...☺

Interestingly I am more booked for rebuilding now than I have been ever before. Go figure.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 10:08
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Just curious of anyone uses software to work up a rebuild cost estimate at the time of evaluation in the home while doing inspection? That would certainly save time not having to transfer all the info to an estimate proposal to the client. Just curious how others do their rebuilding estimates.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
------------------------------

Thanks for the input, Peter! I appreciate the simple system of 8/8/8 system. I just think it would simplify things to input specific extras that are out of the ordinary when inspecting the piano, precluding the need to transfer notes from a checklist to another document for delivery to the customer. I've been looking closely at Gazelle Networks' condition reports that allow you to customize costs per task/item and emails a digital copy of the fine estimate and it seems to have some useful aspects.

Glad to hear you are so busy!


------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 17:27
From: Peter Grey
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

John,

It depends on what they are looking for, i.e. a quick (global) ballpark estimate, or a more detailed specific one.

I've done this enough times so that I know approximately where things will end up. For ballpark I break it into thirds...$8k for action, $8k for belly, $8k for finish, or 9/9/9 if a 6.5 or 7 footer...more for special and/or unusual stuff. Then I explain that if they're serious we do a detailed estimate (for which I get paid of course). This usually tells me if they are serious or not.

Detailed estimate is basically drawn from records of previous jobs and adjusted for the specific piano at hand. Almost always comes out more than I ballparked.

I have spreadsheet estimates saved on my computer going back 20 years. If that qualifies as software...☺

Interestingly I am more booked for rebuilding now than I have been ever before. Go figure.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 10:08
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Just curious of anyone uses software to work up a rebuild cost estimate at the time of evaluation in the home while doing inspection? That would certainly save time not having to transfer all the info to an estimate proposal to the client. Just curious how others do their rebuilding estimates.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
------------------------------

As a very general device, which leaves all kinds of custom things out, the x/x/x scenario generally works. However, though I generally end up working to an x/x/x pricing strategy, its not 8/8/8. I simply cannot make money, in the Boston area,  doing the level of work I am interested in doing, at this level. It often ends up, for a full rebuild at least 12/12/12, but even that is too low...the correct number in the Boston area, at least the way I work and approach things, is more like 15/15/15.

However, the market is not good in my area, at my above stated preferred 15/15/15 rates, at least in my recent experience. I have been adjusting. Not by lowering the numbers, but by excluding, in frank, pre-contract, no-BS conversation my clients. Full re-manufactures, including new keyboards and back actions are not in the cards right now, for me. Instead, again in frank discussion with the client pre-contract, taking  the low 20's expenditure customers are cautiously comfortable parting with these days, I only take it as far as it will go at the 15/1515 level of pricing...at least this is my experience, the last year or so. 

By strategically excluding some work, I can get a really nice sounding instrument going. The goal is to create a piano that is fun for many, if not most home based customers to play. Performance level, high stakes projects...no way...this is only for home based players who want serious pitch clarity and vocal sustain...these are the biggies included in the contract...other, non-functional things like eye candy refinishing, or refinishing other than cosmetic repairs, or refinishing at all, are excluded, as are new keyboards, new back actions, etc. If a customer, at these low 20's rates absolutely must have a full refinishing job, I give it a pass, because the refinishing will eat up too many of the funds necessary to make it a fun instrument to play and listen to.   

As far as commercially available estimating spreadsheets...all a commercialized product will do is force you to accept someone else's commoditized version of a piano.They force you to accept things you don't even know you are accepting. Sheets will work, but you need to define your own assumptions and build those assumptions into the sheet.yourself...at least that's my take.  


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2017 01:03
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Thanks for the input, Peter! I appreciate the simple system of 8/8/8 system. I just think it would simplify things to input specific extras that are out of the ordinary when inspecting the piano, precluding the need to transfer notes from a checklist to another document for delivery to the customer. I've been looking closely at Gazelle Networks' condition reports that allow you to customize costs per task/item and emails a digital copy of the fine estimate and it seems to have some useful aspects.

Glad to hear you are so busy!


------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 17:27
From: Peter Grey
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

John,

It depends on what they are looking for, i.e. a quick (global) ballpark estimate, or a more detailed specific one.

I've done this enough times so that I know approximately where things will end up. For ballpark I break it into thirds...$8k for action, $8k for belly, $8k for finish, or 9/9/9 if a 6.5 or 7 footer...more for special and/or unusual stuff. Then I explain that if they're serious we do a detailed estimate (for which I get paid of course). This usually tells me if they are serious or not.

Detailed estimate is basically drawn from records of previous jobs and adjusted for the specific piano at hand. Almost always comes out more than I ballparked.

I have spreadsheet estimates saved on my computer going back 20 years. If that qualifies as software...☺

Interestingly I am more booked for rebuilding now than I have been ever before. Go figure.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 10:08
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Just curious of anyone uses software to work up a rebuild cost estimate at the time of evaluation in the home while doing inspection? That would certainly save time not having to transfer all the info to an estimate proposal to the client. Just curious how others do their rebuilding estimates.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
------------------------------

For myself, I have learned not to try to give a reasonably accurate estimate on the spot - it has a negative psychological impact on the customer if I quote them 12 at the house, and 16.5 a day or two later when I have done the legwork of a formal itemized estimate.  

You also need to give yourself the time to think about the best way to approach the rebuild.  Most things I do are pretty straightforward, other things need to be researched for materials and suppliers.  And, as Jim has detailed, how to approach the customer in terms of the their financial requirements juxtaposed with the needs of the piano.  That takes time and thought.  

That said, I do have a boilerplate rebuild estimate form in Excel into which I drop the tasks and numbers.  Since most people have Excel these days, I usually email them the estimate first, followed by hardcopy.  

Will Truitt

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2017 09:18
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

As a very general device, which leaves all kinds of custom things out, the x/x/x scenario generally works. However, though I generally end up working to an x/x/x pricing strategy, its not 8/8/8. I simply cannot make money, in the Boston area,  doing the level of work I am interested in doing, at this level. It often ends up, for a full rebuild at least 12/12/12, but even that is too low...the correct number in the Boston area, at least the way I work and approach things, is more like 15/15/15.

However, the market is not good in my area, at my above stated preferred 15/15/15 rates, at least in my recent experience. I have been adjusting. Not by lowering the numbers, but by excluding, in frank, pre-contract, no-BS conversation my clients. Full re-manufactures, including new keyboards and back actions are not in the cards right now, for me. Instead, again in frank discussion with the client pre-contract, taking  the low 20's expenditure customers are cautiously comfortable parting with these days, I only take it as far as it will go at the 15/1515 level of pricing...at least this is my experience, the last year or so.

By strategically excluding some work, I can get a really nice sounding instrument going. The goal is to create a piano that is fun for many, if not most home based customers to play. Performance level, high stakes projects...no way...this is only for home based players who want serious pitch clarity and vocal sustain...these are the biggies included in the contract...other, non-functional things like eye candy refinishing, or refinishing other than cosmetic repairs, or refinishing at all, are excluded, as are new keyboards, new back actions, etc. If a customer, at these low 20's rates absolutely must have a full refinishing job, I give it a pass, because the refinishing will eat up too many of the funds necessary to make it a fun instrument to play and listen to.

As far as commercially available estimating spreadsheets...all a commercialized product will do is force you to accept someone else's commoditized version of a piano.They force you to accept things you don't even know you are accepting. Sheets will work, but you need to define your own assumptions and build those assumptions into the sheet.yourself...at least that's my take.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2017 01:03
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Thanks for the input, Peter! I appreciate the simple system of 8/8/8 system. I just think it would simplify things to input specific extras that are out of the ordinary when inspecting the piano, precluding the need to transfer notes from a checklist to another document for delivery to the customer. I've been looking closely at Gazelle Networks' condition reports that allow you to customize costs per task/item and emails a digital copy of the fine estimate and it seems to have some useful aspects.

Glad to hear you are so busy!


------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 17:27
From: Peter Grey
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

John,

It depends on what they are looking for, i.e. a quick (global) ballpark estimate, or a more detailed specific one.

I've done this enough times so that I know approximately where things will end up. For ballpark I break it into thirds...$8k for action, $8k for belly, $8k for finish, or 9/9/9 if a 6.5 or 7 footer...more for special and/or unusual stuff. Then I explain that if they're serious we do a detailed estimate (for which I get paid of course). This usually tells me if they are serious or not.

Detailed estimate is basically drawn from records of previous jobs and adjusted for the specific piano at hand. Almost always comes out more than I ballparked.

I have spreadsheet estimates saved on my computer going back 20 years. If that qualifies as software...☺

Interestingly I am more booked for rebuilding now than I have been ever before. Go figure.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 10:08
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Just curious of anyone uses software to work up a rebuild cost estimate at the time of evaluation in the home while doing inspection? That would certainly save time not having to transfer all the info to an estimate proposal to the client. Just curious how others do their rebuilding estimates.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
------------------------------

Thanks for the input on the estimating software. I made no mention of giving the customer an estimate on the spot. I simply want to be able to input the data(hours, or dollars per task) to avoid having to crunch the numbers again in a separate process. 

I took a 150 year old violin to a highly recommended violin repair shop in Chicago where the shop employee inspected the instrument as I watched, entered recommended itemized repairs by time (estimates) totaled the time, multiplying by their shop rate and handing me a printed copy of an estimate of the repairs. It gave me a crystal clear idea of the scope of the cost for the work to be completed.
Of course, they did point out that it could cost more than the estimate, so I was informed. 

I read a mention of a 10% overage written into the contract, with the customer agreeing to a maximum of 10% over the estimate for extra work, without the need for customer approval. That seems to be quite reasonable. That sounds quite reasonable to me as a consumer.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
jminor@illinois.edu
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2017 14:53
From: William Truitt
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

For myself, I have learned not to try to give a reasonably accurate estimate on the spot - it has a negative psychological impact on the customer if I quote them 12 at the house, and 16.5 a day or two later when I have done the legwork of a formal itemized estimate.

You also need to give yourself the time to think about the best way to approach the rebuild.  Most things I do are pretty straightforward, other things need to be researched for materials and suppliers.  And, as Jim has detailed, how to approach the customer in terms of the their financial requirements juxtaposed with the needs of the piano.  That takes time and thought.

That said, I do have a boilerplate rebuild estimate form in Excel into which I drop the tasks and numbers.  Since most people have Excel these days, I usually email them the estimate first, followed by hardcopy.

Will Truitt

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2017 09:18
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

As a very general device, which leaves all kinds of custom things out, the x/x/x scenario generally works. However, though I generally end up working to an x/x/x pricing strategy, its not 8/8/8. I simply cannot make money, in the Boston area,  doing the level of work I am interested in doing, at this level. It often ends up, for a full rebuild at least 12/12/12, but even that is too low...the correct number in the Boston area, at least the way I work and approach things, is more like 15/15/15.

However, the market is not good in my area, at my above stated preferred 15/15/15 rates, at least in my recent experience. I have been adjusting. Not by lowering the numbers, but by excluding, in frank, pre-contract, no-BS conversation my clients. Full re-manufactures, including new keyboards and back actions are not in the cards right now, for me. Instead, again in frank discussion with the client pre-contract, taking  the low 20's expenditure customers are cautiously comfortable parting with these days, I only take it as far as it will go at the 15/1515 level of pricing...at least this is my experience, the last year or so.

By strategically excluding some work, I can get a really nice sounding instrument going. The goal is to create a piano that is fun for many, if not most home based customers to play. Performance level, high stakes projects...no way...this is only for home based players who want serious pitch clarity and vocal sustain...these are the biggies included in the contract...other, non-functional things like eye candy refinishing, or refinishing other than cosmetic repairs, or refinishing at all, are excluded, as are new keyboards, new back actions, etc. If a customer, at these low 20's rates absolutely must have a full refinishing job, I give it a pass, because the refinishing will eat up too many of the funds necessary to make it a fun instrument to play and listen to.

As far as commercially available estimating spreadsheets...all a commercialized product will do is force you to accept someone else's commoditized version of a piano.They force you to accept things you don't even know you are accepting. Sheets will work, but you need to define your own assumptions and build those assumptions into the sheet.yourself...at least that's my take.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2017 01:03
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Thanks for the input, Peter! I appreciate the simple system of 8/8/8 system. I just think it would simplify things to input specific extras that are out of the ordinary when inspecting the piano, precluding the need to transfer notes from a checklist to another document for delivery to the customer. I've been looking closely at Gazelle Networks' condition reports that allow you to customize costs per task/item and emails a digital copy of the fine estimate and it seems to have some useful aspects.

Glad to hear you are so busy!


------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 17:27
From: Peter Grey
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

John,

It depends on what they are looking for, i.e. a quick (global) ballpark estimate, or a more detailed specific one.

I've done this enough times so that I know approximately where things will end up. For ballpark I break it into thirds...$8k for action, $8k for belly, $8k for finish, or 9/9/9 if a 6.5 or 7 footer...more for special and/or unusual stuff. Then I explain that if they're serious we do a detailed estimate (for which I get paid of course). This usually tells me if they are serious or not.

Detailed estimate is basically drawn from records of previous jobs and adjusted for the specific piano at hand. Almost always comes out more than I ballparked.

I have spreadsheet estimates saved on my computer going back 20 years. If that qualifies as software...☺

Interestingly I am more booked for rebuilding now than I have been ever before. Go figure.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 10:08
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Just curious of anyone uses software to work up a rebuild cost estimate at the time of evaluation in the home while doing inspection? That would certainly save time not having to transfer all the info to an estimate proposal to the client. Just curious how others do their rebuilding estimates.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
------------------------------

John,

Yes, I have SOME hour multipliers in my SS, but it's just a guide to get me thinking properly and not go too far afield. Restringing a Steinway is significantly different from restringing a Bosie for instance.

And yes, 10% overage permission granted WITHOUT notifying client. Over that...must consult. Only had to use that twice in 42 years.

Would be nice to just be able to punch it out though.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2017 01:36
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Thanks for the input on the estimating software. I made no mention of giving the customer an estimate on the spot. I simply want to be able to input the data(hours, or dollars per task) to avoid having to crunch the numbers again in a separate process.

I took a 150 year old violin to a highly recommended violin repair shop in Chicago where the shop employee inspected the instrument as I watched, entered recommended itemized repairs by time (estimates) totaled the time, multiplying by their shop rate and handing me a printed copy of an estimate of the repairs. It gave me a crystal clear idea of the scope of the cost for the work to be completed.
Of course, they did point out that it could cost more than the estimate, so I was informed.

I read a mention of a 10% overage written into the contract, with the customer agreeing to a maximum of 10% over the estimate for extra work, without the need for customer approval. That seems to be quite reasonable. That sounds quite reasonable to me as a consumer.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
jminor@illinois.edu

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2017 14:53
From: William Truitt
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

For myself, I have learned not to try to give a reasonably accurate estimate on the spot - it has a negative psychological impact on the customer if I quote them 12 at the house, and 16.5 a day or two later when I have done the legwork of a formal itemized estimate.

You also need to give yourself the time to think about the best way to approach the rebuild.  Most things I do are pretty straightforward, other things need to be researched for materials and suppliers.  And, as Jim has detailed, how to approach the customer in terms of the their financial requirements juxtaposed with the needs of the piano.  That takes time and thought.

That said, I do have a boilerplate rebuild estimate form in Excel into which I drop the tasks and numbers.  Since most people have Excel these days, I usually email them the estimate first, followed by hardcopy.

Will Truitt

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2017 09:18
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

As a very general device, which leaves all kinds of custom things out, the x/x/x scenario generally works. However, though I generally end up working to an x/x/x pricing strategy, its not 8/8/8. I simply cannot make money, in the Boston area,  doing the level of work I am interested in doing, at this level. It often ends up, for a full rebuild at least 12/12/12, but even that is too low...the correct number in the Boston area, at least the way I work and approach things, is more like 15/15/15.

However, the market is not good in my area, at my above stated preferred 15/15/15 rates, at least in my recent experience. I have been adjusting. Not by lowering the numbers, but by excluding, in frank, pre-contract, no-BS conversation my clients. Full re-manufactures, including new keyboards and back actions are not in the cards right now, for me. Instead, again in frank discussion with the client pre-contract, taking  the low 20's expenditure customers are cautiously comfortable parting with these days, I only take it as far as it will go at the 15/1515 level of pricing...at least this is my experience, the last year or so.

By strategically excluding some work, I can get a really nice sounding instrument going. The goal is to create a piano that is fun for many, if not most home based customers to play. Performance level, high stakes projects...no way...this is only for home based players who want serious pitch clarity and vocal sustain...these are the biggies included in the contract...other, non-functional things like eye candy refinishing, or refinishing other than cosmetic repairs, or refinishing at all, are excluded, as are new keyboards, new back actions, etc. If a customer, at these low 20's rates absolutely must have a full refinishing job, I give it a pass, because the refinishing will eat up too many of the funds necessary to make it a fun instrument to play and listen to.

As far as commercially available estimating spreadsheets...all a commercialized product will do is force you to accept someone else's commoditized version of a piano.They force you to accept things you don't even know you are accepting. Sheets will work, but you need to define your own assumptions and build those assumptions into the sheet.yourself...at least that's my take.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2017 01:03
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Thanks for the input, Peter! I appreciate the simple system of 8/8/8 system. I just think it would simplify things to input specific extras that are out of the ordinary when inspecting the piano, precluding the need to transfer notes from a checklist to another document for delivery to the customer. I've been looking closely at Gazelle Networks' condition reports that allow you to customize costs per task/item and emails a digital copy of the fine estimate and it seems to have some useful aspects.

Glad to hear you are so busy!


------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 17:27
From: Peter Grey
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

John,

It depends on what they are looking for, i.e. a quick (global) ballpark estimate, or a more detailed specific one.

I've done this enough times so that I know approximately where things will end up. For ballpark I break it into thirds...$8k for action, $8k for belly, $8k for finish, or 9/9/9 if a 6.5 or 7 footer...more for special and/or unusual stuff. Then I explain that if they're serious we do a detailed estimate (for which I get paid of course). This usually tells me if they are serious or not.

Detailed estimate is basically drawn from records of previous jobs and adjusted for the specific piano at hand. Almost always comes out more than I ballparked.

I have spreadsheet estimates saved on my computer going back 20 years. If that qualifies as software...☺

Interestingly I am more booked for rebuilding now than I have been ever before. Go figure.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 10:08
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Just curious of anyone uses software to work up a rebuild cost estimate at the time of evaluation in the home while doing inspection? That would certainly save time not having to transfer all the info to an estimate proposal to the client. Just curious how others do their rebuilding estimates.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
------------------------------

I find that doing a full bore, comprehensive estimate usually takes me several hours.  Although I do itemize parts and their costs on my estimate, it is important to be sure your prices are up to date.  I like to finish the job at or very close to the quoted prices.  

Like Peter, I do leave myself 10% wiggle room.  Often, I will call the customer and let them know anyway.

You can still get caught, though.  30 plus years ago, I got a 6' grand in the shop to restring with a new block, along with the action rebuild.  When I removed the strings, the soundboard oilcanned.  I had to call the church and tell them that it was going to cost many thousands more.  

Will Truitt

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2017 09:27
From: Peter Grey
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

John,

Yes, I have SOME hour multipliers in my SS, but it's just a quite to get me thinking properly and not go too far afield. Restringing a Steinway is significantly different from restringing a Bosie for instance.

And yes, 10% overage permission granted WITHOUT notifying client. Over that...must consult. Only had to use that twice in 42 years.

Would be nice to just be able to punch it out though.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2017 01:36
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Thanks for the input on the estimating software. I made no mention of giving the customer an estimate on the spot. I simply want to be able to input the data(hours, or dollars per task) to avoid having to crunch the numbers again in a separate process.

I took a 150 year old violin to a highly recommended violin repair shop in Chicago where the shop employee inspected the instrument as I watched, entered recommended itemized repairs by time (estimates) totaled the time, multiplying by their shop rate and handing me a printed copy of an estimate of the repairs. It gave me a crystal clear idea of the scope of the cost for the work to be completed.
Of course, they did point out that it could cost more than the estimate, so I was informed.

I read a mention of a 10% overage written into the contract, with the customer agreeing to a maximum of 10% over the estimate for extra work, without the need for customer approval. That seems to be quite reasonable. That sounds quite reasonable to me as a consumer.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
jminor@illinois.edu

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2017 14:53
From: William Truitt
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

For myself, I have learned not to try to give a reasonably accurate estimate on the spot - it has a negative psychological impact on the customer if I quote them 12 at the house, and 16.5 a day or two later when I have done the legwork of a formal itemized estimate.

You also need to give yourself the time to think about the best way to approach the rebuild.  Most things I do are pretty straightforward, other things need to be researched for materials and suppliers.  And, as Jim has detailed, how to approach the customer in terms of the their financial requirements juxtaposed with the needs of the piano.  That takes time and thought.

That said, I do have a boilerplate rebuild estimate form in Excel into which I drop the tasks and numbers.  Since most people have Excel these days, I usually email them the estimate first, followed by hardcopy.

Will Truitt

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2017 09:18
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

As a very general device, which leaves all kinds of custom things out, the x/x/x scenario generally works. However, though I generally end up working to an x/x/x pricing strategy, its not 8/8/8. I simply cannot make money, in the Boston area,  doing the level of work I am interested in doing, at this level. It often ends up, for a full rebuild at least 12/12/12, but even that is too low...the correct number in the Boston area, at least the way I work and approach things, is more like 15/15/15.

However, the market is not good in my area, at my above stated preferred 15/15/15 rates, at least in my recent experience. I have been adjusting. Not by lowering the numbers, but by excluding, in frank, pre-contract, no-BS conversation my clients. Full re-manufactures, including new keyboards and back actions are not in the cards right now, for me. Instead, again in frank discussion with the client pre-contract, taking  the low 20's expenditure customers are cautiously comfortable parting with these days, I only take it as far as it will go at the 15/1515 level of pricing...at least this is my experience, the last year or so.

By strategically excluding some work, I can get a really nice sounding instrument going. The goal is to create a piano that is fun for many, if not most home based customers to play. Performance level, high stakes projects...no way...this is only for home based players who want serious pitch clarity and vocal sustain...these are the biggies included in the contract...other, non-functional things like eye candy refinishing, or refinishing other than cosmetic repairs, or refinishing at all, are excluded, as are new keyboards, new back actions, etc. If a customer, at these low 20's rates absolutely must have a full refinishing job, I give it a pass, because the refinishing will eat up too many of the funds necessary to make it a fun instrument to play and listen to.

As far as commercially available estimating spreadsheets...all a commercialized product will do is force you to accept someone else's commoditized version of a piano.They force you to accept things you don't even know you are accepting. Sheets will work, but you need to define your own assumptions and build those assumptions into the sheet.yourself...at least that's my take.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2017 01:03
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Thanks for the input, Peter! I appreciate the simple system of 8/8/8 system. I just think it would simplify things to input specific extras that are out of the ordinary when inspecting the piano, precluding the need to transfer notes from a checklist to another document for delivery to the customer. I've been looking closely at Gazelle Networks' condition reports that allow you to customize costs per task/item and emails a digital copy of the fine estimate and it seems to have some useful aspects.

Glad to hear you are so busy!


------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 17:27
From: Peter Grey
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

John,

It depends on what they are looking for, i.e. a quick (global) ballpark estimate, or a more detailed specific one.

I've done this enough times so that I know approximately where things will end up. For ballpark I break it into thirds...$8k for action, $8k for belly, $8k for finish, or 9/9/9 if a 6.5 or 7 footer...more for special and/or unusual stuff. Then I explain that if they're serious we do a detailed estimate (for which I get paid of course). This usually tells me if they are serious or not.

Detailed estimate is basically drawn from records of previous jobs and adjusted for the specific piano at hand. Almost always comes out more than I ballparked.

I have spreadsheet estimates saved on my computer going back 20 years. If that qualifies as software...☺

Interestingly I am more booked for rebuilding now than I have been ever before. Go figure.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 10:08
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Just curious of anyone uses software to work up a rebuild cost estimate at the time of evaluation in the home while doing inspection? That would certainly save time not having to transfer all the info to an estimate proposal to the client. Just curious how others do their rebuilding estimates.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
------------------------------

<I have learned not to try to give a reasonably accurate estimate on the spot - it has a negative psychological impact on the customer if I quote them 12 at the house, and 16.5 a day or two later when I have done the legwork of a formal itemized estimate.

I find this psychological step real important, but its also a bit of a conundrum.  

The initial price they hear remains the price that is processed in the brain. But, in this step of the negotiation, many folks, whose pianos need serious work, have often not yet done any leg work on the process or prices. At this stage, often, I find that the concept of rebuild or serious repair is a something that may have been swimming around in the back of their minds, but not really researched or acted upon until this initial conversation brings the thought to the front of their mind...so the conversation, process and price is all "new" to them at this point.

This means that during this initial conversation, if you give the number you know it will take in conversation, 1-As its the first number they hear it will be the number they remember...that's good...2-however, as they have not shopped around yet, the sticker shock can be excessive...it can easily turn them away. I find sticker shock, in piano land pretty common when folks first start investigating the work. They may get over it, but it is there, has to be dealt with carefully. It is a potential project killer.

This conundrum is where, psychologically, I can get tripped up and screw the initial conversation up. I have not come up with a way to conversationally ball park numbers to introduce the client to the concept of rebuild and rebuild costs that does not hamstring me later in the negotiations...especially these days, where folks at least around here seem to be spending but are very worried about spending.

As Will said, and I agree, you don't want to throw out that low incorrect number conversationally on the spot, as it will stick as the "real" number. But you talk real numbers and the game is potentially over.  My approach has been, lately, as I mentioned yesterday, to go with the lower conversational number that has some sticker shock but not an overwhelming amount, then in the negotiations, make it clear what that lower number is excluding.

Any other approaches to this initial conundrum ?

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2017 14:53
From: William Truitt
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

For myself, I have learned not to try to give a reasonably accurate estimate on the spot - it has a negative psychological impact on the customer if I quote them 12 at the house, and 16.5 a day or two later when I have done the legwork of a formal itemized estimate.

You also need to give yourself the time to think about the best way to approach the rebuild.  Most things I do are pretty straightforward, other things need to be researched for materials and suppliers.  And, as Jim has detailed, how to approach the customer in terms of the their financial requirements juxtaposed with the needs of the piano.  That takes time and thought.

That said, I do have a boilerplate rebuild estimate form in Excel into which I drop the tasks and numbers.  Since most people have Excel these days, I usually email them the estimate first, followed by hardcopy.

Will Truitt

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2017 09:18
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

As a very general device, which leaves all kinds of custom things out, the x/x/x scenario generally works. However, though I generally end up working to an x/x/x pricing strategy, its not 8/8/8. I simply cannot make money, in the Boston area,  doing the level of work I am interested in doing, at this level. It often ends up, for a full rebuild at least 12/12/12, but even that is too low...the correct number in the Boston area, at least the way I work and approach things, is more like 15/15/15.

However, the market is not good in my area, at my above stated preferred 15/15/15 rates, at least in my recent experience. I have been adjusting. Not by lowering the numbers, but by excluding, in frank, pre-contract, no-BS conversation my clients. Full re-manufactures, including new keyboards and back actions are not in the cards right now, for me. Instead, again in frank discussion with the client pre-contract, taking  the low 20's expenditure customers are cautiously comfortable parting with these days, I only take it as far as it will go at the 15/1515 level of pricing...at least this is my experience, the last year or so.

By strategically excluding some work, I can get a really nice sounding instrument going. The goal is to create a piano that is fun for many, if not most home based customers to play. Performance level, high stakes projects...no way...this is only for home based players who want serious pitch clarity and vocal sustain...these are the biggies included in the contract...other, non-functional things like eye candy refinishing, or refinishing other than cosmetic repairs, or refinishing at all, are excluded, as are new keyboards, new back actions, etc. If a customer, at these low 20's rates absolutely must have a full refinishing job, I give it a pass, because the refinishing will eat up too many of the funds necessary to make it a fun instrument to play and listen to.

As far as commercially available estimating spreadsheets...all a commercialized product will do is force you to accept someone else's commoditized version of a piano.They force you to accept things you don't even know you are accepting. Sheets will work, but you need to define your own assumptions and build those assumptions into the sheet.yourself...at least that's my take.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2017 01:03
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Thanks for the input, Peter! I appreciate the simple system of 8/8/8 system. I just think it would simplify things to input specific extras that are out of the ordinary when inspecting the piano, precluding the need to transfer notes from a checklist to another document for delivery to the customer. I've been looking closely at Gazelle Networks' condition reports that allow you to customize costs per task/item and emails a digital copy of the fine estimate and it seems to have some useful aspects.

Glad to hear you are so busy!


------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 17:27
From: Peter Grey
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

John,

It depends on what they are looking for, i.e. a quick (global) ballpark estimate, or a more detailed specific one.

I've done this enough times so that I know approximately where things will end up. For ballpark I break it into thirds...$8k for action, $8k for belly, $8k for finish, or 9/9/9 if a 6.5 or 7 footer...more for special and/or unusual stuff. Then I explain that if they're serious we do a detailed estimate (for which I get paid of course). This usually tells me if they are serious or not.

Detailed estimate is basically drawn from records of previous jobs and adjusted for the specific piano at hand. Almost always comes out more than I ballparked.

I have spreadsheet estimates saved on my computer going back 20 years. If that qualifies as software...☺

Interestingly I am more booked for rebuilding now than I have been ever before. Go figure.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 10:08
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Just curious of anyone uses software to work up a rebuild cost estimate at the time of evaluation in the home while doing inspection? That would certainly save time not having to transfer all the info to an estimate proposal to the client. Just curious how others do their rebuilding estimates.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
------------------------------

In one sense, the whole idea of giving an estimate in that format is a bad idea. Think about it, you are giving a customer an itemized list- BORING!!  And it kinda shows a general lack of understanding of the public today. An old saying is to know your audience.
So I tried something new last year. And so far, I have increased my conversion rate quite a bit.
I give estimates to the public now in pictures via text. I recently turned a $350 keytop job into a $3700 rebuild within 30 minutes of the piano arriving in my shop. 
Here's a photo that illustrates the tactic:
This piano needs new hammers. etc etc.  It bypasses the number fatigue of an itemized list. And communicates better to the customer.

Since most of my work is for other Piano Technicians I do have a price list for them. Afterall, proper communication of the work that needs to be done is no problem. I give them my price list, and they do the quoting for me. I just get a check in the mail and go pick up the piano.

My prices are based on how busy I want to be. 

When I encounter customer's that I know don't have a lot of money, I go into charity mode and offer them great discounts. I would never take an elitist point of view and have a predetermined price written in stone such as 15/15/15.  
The price list and pictures allows me to spend less time in the office and more time in the shop.




------------------------------
ChrisChernobieff
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City TN
865-986-7720
chrisppff@gmail.com chrisppff@gmail.com
http://chernobieffpiano.com/
The Declaration states, "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness…."
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 10:08
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Just curious of anyone uses software to work up a rebuild cost estimate at the time of evaluation in the home while doing inspection? That would certainly save time not having to transfer all the info to an estimate proposal to the client. Just curious how others do their rebuilding estimates.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
------------------------------

Yes, photos are a great way of encouraging decision-making. This was the premise behind one of Chuck Behm's series' in the journal. I have not used it as much as I probably should.

But here are a few expressions I tend to use before actually throwing out any prices:

"First and foremost, you cannot/should not look at this from a purely economic perspective."

"If you're going to do this you need to do it because you WANT TO...it is not a financial investment."

"You can buy several pianos for what it will cost to fully restore this one".

"You will never get your money back".

"Are you sure you want to do this?"

"The payback is entirely in enjoying the piano the way it once was".

"If cost is an issue, forget it. Cost cannot be an issue if we're going to do this properly".

There are others but you get the idea. Actually attempt to talk them out of it before giving any figures. You are psychologically preparing them for a really big number, and at the same time telling them that this is not a negotiable thing...this is what it takes to do the job right.

Once they start pressing you for numbers, then throw out the ballpark figure (on the high side, not the low side). If they still show interest, then: "The fee for preparing the estimate is..."  If they balk at that you know they're not serious. A serious person knows you need to be paid for this. I don't give free estimates (except non-binding ballpark ones).

That is some of what I do.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2017 14:37
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

In one sense, the whole idea of giving an estimate in that format is a bad idea. Think about it, you are giving a customer an itemized list- BORING!!  And it kinda shows a general lack of understanding of the public today. An old saying is to know your audience.
So I tried something new last year. And so far, I have increased my conversion rate quite a bit.
I give estimates to the public now in pictures via text. I recently turned a $350 keytop job into a $3700 rebuild within 30 minutes of the piano arriving in my shop.
Here's a photo that illustrates the tactic:
This piano needs new hammers. etc etc.  It bypasses the number fatigue of an itemized list. And communicates better to the customer.

Since most of my work is for other Piano Technicians I do have a price list for them. Afterall, proper communication of the work that needs to be done is no problem. I give them my price list, and they do the quoting for me. I just get a check in the mail and go pick up the piano.

My prices are based on how busy I want to be.

When I encounter customer's that I know don't have a lot of money, I go into charity mode and offer them great discounts. I would never take an elitist point of view and have a predetermined price written in stone such as 15/15/15.
The price list and pictures allows me to spend less time in the office and more time in the shop.




------------------------------
ChrisChernobieff
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City TN
865-986-7720
chrisppff@gmail.com chrisppff@gmail.com
http://chernobieffpiano.com/
The Declaration states, "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness…."

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 10:08
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Just curious of anyone uses software to work up a rebuild cost estimate at the time of evaluation in the home while doing inspection? That would certainly save time not having to transfer all the info to an estimate proposal to the client. Just curious how others do their rebuilding estimates.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
------------------------------

Excellent Peter...the "not a financial investment" discussion is, like you have described, the very first part of the discussion...frank and no BS...this is not about the money, and hammer it home...totally agree!

I'm just realizing in concurring with your post in its entirety, that that is in fact part of the sales presentation...even though its a negative, as in "don't do this unless". Cutting out the "what its not about" helps clear the air, so you can talk about what it is about...ie...its about quality of life.

I think this helps de-fuse the no-win conundrum I described.



------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2017 16:49
From: Peter Grey
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Yes, photos are a great way of encouraging decision-making. This was the premise behind one of Chuck Behm's series' in the journal. I have not used it as much as I probably should.

But here are a few expressions I tend to use before actually throwing out any prices:

"First and foremost, you cannot/should not look at this from a purely economic perspective."

"If you're going to do this you need to do it because you WANT TO...it is not a financial investment."

"You can buy several pianos for what it will cost to fully restore this one".

"You will never get your money back".

"Are you sure you want to do this?"

"The payback is entirely in enjoying the piano the way it once was".

"If cost is an issue, forget it. Cost cannot be an issue if we're going to do this properly".

There are others but you get the idea. Actually attempt to talk them out of it before giving any figures. You are psychologically preparing them for a really big number, and at the same time telling them that this is not a negotiable thing...this is what it takes to do the job right.

Once they start pressing you for numbers, then throw out the ballpark figure (on the high side, not the low side). If they still show interest, then: "The fee for preparing the estimate is..."  If they balk at that you know they're not serious. A serious person knows you need to be paid for this. I don't give free estimates (except non-binding ballpark ones).

That is some of what I do.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2017 14:37
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

In one sense, the whole idea of giving an estimate in that format is a bad idea. Think about it, you are giving a customer an itemized list- BORING!!  And it kinda shows a general lack of understanding of the public today. An old saying is to know your audience.
So I tried something new last year. And so far, I have increased my conversion rate quite a bit.
I give estimates to the public now in pictures via text. I recently turned a $350 keytop job into a $3700 rebuild within 30 minutes of the piano arriving in my shop.
Here's a photo that illustrates the tactic:
This piano needs new hammers. etc etc.  It bypasses the number fatigue of an itemized list. And communicates better to the customer.

Since most of my work is for other Piano Technicians I do have a price list for them. Afterall, proper communication of the work that needs to be done is no problem. I give them my price list, and they do the quoting for me. I just get a check in the mail and go pick up the piano.

My prices are based on how busy I want to be.

When I encounter customer's that I know don't have a lot of money, I go into charity mode and offer them great discounts. I would never take an elitist point of view and have a predetermined price written in stone such as 15/15/15.
The price list and pictures allows me to spend less time in the office and more time in the shop.




------------------------------
ChrisChernobieff
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City TN
865-986-7720
chrisppff@gmail.com chrisppff@gmail.com
http://chernobieffpiano.com/
The Declaration states, "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness…."

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 10:08
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Just curious of anyone uses software to work up a rebuild cost estimate at the time of evaluation in the home while doing inspection? That would certainly save time not having to transfer all the info to an estimate proposal to the client. Just curious how others do their rebuilding estimates.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
------------------------------

<even though its a negative, as in "don't do this unless"

quoting my own post...a second thought regarding the negative, and especially working the negative first. Cognitive studies again and again point to the brain's tendency to interpret a "not about something" as a positive, ie "it is infact about that something we are trying to negate". For example, Nixon's famous "I am not a crook"...uhhh...the interpretation, probably universally, eliminates the "not". Interpolate to the present if you like.

So, in thinking about this and presenting from the "not about the money" negative, rather, the statement and course of the "not about the money" discussion, must be stated as a positive..."this is about your enjoyment", "this is about having a piano that assists you as you work the technique", etc. And the negative statement regarding non-recoup of money spent, only stated after the positive has had a chance to sink in as the first impression.

 

   

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2017 17:33
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Excellent Peter...the "not a financial investment" discussion is, like you have described, the very first part of the discussion...frank and no BS...this is not about the money, and hammer it home...totally agree!

I'm just realizing in concurring with your post in its entirety, that that is in fact part of the sales presentation...even though its a negative, as in "don't do this unless". Cutting out the "what its not about" helps clear the air, so you can talk about what it is about...ie...its about quality of life.

I think this helps de-fuse the no-win conundrum I described.



------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2017 16:49
From: Peter Grey
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Yes, photos are a great way of encouraging decision-making. This was the premise behind one of Chuck Behm's series' in the journal. I have not used it as much as I probably should.

But here are a few expressions I tend to use before actually throwing out any prices:

"First and foremost, you cannot/should not look at this from a purely economic perspective."

"If you're going to do this you need to do it because you WANT TO...it is not a financial investment."

"You can buy several pianos for what it will cost to fully restore this one".

"You will never get your money back".

"Are you sure you want to do this?"

"The payback is entirely in enjoying the piano the way it once was".

"If cost is an issue, forget it. Cost cannot be an issue if we're going to do this properly".

There are others but you get the idea. Actually attempt to talk them out of it before giving any figures. You are psychologically preparing them for a really big number, and at the same time telling them that this is not a negotiable thing...this is what it takes to do the job right.

Once they start pressing you for numbers, then throw out the ballpark figure (on the high side, not the low side). If they still show interest, then: "The fee for preparing the estimate is..."  If they balk at that you know they're not serious. A serious person knows you need to be paid for this. I don't give free estimates (except non-binding ballpark ones).

That is some of what I do.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2017 14:37
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

In one sense, the whole idea of giving an estimate in that format is a bad idea. Think about it, you are giving a customer an itemized list- BORING!!  And it kinda shows a general lack of understanding of the public today. An old saying is to know your audience.
So I tried something new last year. And so far, I have increased my conversion rate quite a bit.
I give estimates to the public now in pictures via text. I recently turned a $350 keytop job into a $3700 rebuild within 30 minutes of the piano arriving in my shop.
Here's a photo that illustrates the tactic:
This piano needs new hammers. etc etc.  It bypasses the number fatigue of an itemized list. And communicates better to the customer.

Since most of my work is for other Piano Technicians I do have a price list for them. Afterall, proper communication of the work that needs to be done is no problem. I give them my price list, and they do the quoting for me. I just get a check in the mail and go pick up the piano.

My prices are based on how busy I want to be.

When I encounter customer's that I know don't have a lot of money, I go into charity mode and offer them great discounts. I would never take an elitist point of view and have a predetermined price written in stone such as 15/15/15.
The price list and pictures allows me to spend less time in the office and more time in the shop.




------------------------------
ChrisChernobieff
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City TN
865-986-7720
chrisppff@gmail.com chrisppff@gmail.com
http://chernobieffpiano.com/
The Declaration states, "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness…."

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 10:08
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Just curious of anyone uses software to work up a rebuild cost estimate at the time of evaluation in the home while doing inspection? That would certainly save time not having to transfer all the info to an estimate proposal to the client. Just curious how others do their rebuilding estimates.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
------------------------------

And especially when it comes to "Putting Grandma's piano back to the way it was when she enjoyed it..."

Yeah, I basically attempt to talk them out of the whole thing...plus even if they DO want it, they'll have to wait in line. Can't do it right away...

Similar with humidity control systems:

"I KNOW how to keep your piano in tune so you only need to see me once a year...your piano needs a humidity control system. It treats the problem rather than the symptom. IF you enjoy playing the piano, this will dramatically increase your enjoyment of it because it will be always be in tune or very close to in tune. However if that's not particularly important to you, or if you don't think you can maintain it, then don't spend the money. Just call me 2 or 3 times a year to tune it and you can have the pleasures of seeing my face..."

Something along that line anyway. You get the idea.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2017 17:44
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

<even though its a negative, as in "don't do this unless"

quoting my own post...a second thought regarding the negative, and especially working the negative first. Cognitive studies again and again point to the brain's tendency to interpret a "not about something" as a positive, ie "it is infact about that something we are trying to negate". For example, Nixon's famous "I am not a crook"...uhhh...the interpretation, probably universally, eliminates the "not". Interpolate to the present if you like.

So, in thinking about this and presenting from the "not about the money" negative, rather, the statement and course of the "not about the money" discussion, must be stated as a positive..."this is about your enjoyment", "this is about having a piano that assists you as you work the technique", etc. And the negative statement regarding non-recoup of money spent, only stated after the positive has had a chance to sink in as the first impression.



   

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2017 17:33
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Excellent Peter...the "not a financial investment" discussion is, like you have described, the very first part of the discussion...frank and no BS...this is not about the money, and hammer it home...totally agree!

I'm just realizing in concurring with your post in its entirety, that that is in fact part of the sales presentation...even though its a negative, as in "don't do this unless". Cutting out the "what its not about" helps clear the air, so you can talk about what it is about...ie...its about quality of life.

I think this helps de-fuse the no-win conundrum I described.



------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2017 16:49
From: Peter Grey
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Yes, photos are a great way of encouraging decision-making. This was the premise behind one of Chuck Behm's series' in the journal. I have not used it as much as I probably should.

But here are a few expressions I tend to use before actually throwing out any prices:

"First and foremost, you cannot/should not look at this from a purely economic perspective."

"If you're going to do this you need to do it because you WANT TO...it is not a financial investment."

"You can buy several pianos for what it will cost to fully restore this one".

"You will never get your money back".

"Are you sure you want to do this?"

"The payback is entirely in enjoying the piano the way it once was".

"If cost is an issue, forget it. Cost cannot be an issue if we're going to do this properly".

There are others but you get the idea. Actually attempt to talk them out of it before giving any figures. You are psychologically preparing them for a really big number, and at the same time telling them that this is not a negotiable thing...this is what it takes to do the job right.

Once they start pressing you for numbers, then throw out the ballpark figure (on the high side, not the low side). If they still show interest, then: "The fee for preparing the estimate is..."  If they balk at that you know they're not serious. A serious person knows you need to be paid for this. I don't give free estimates (except non-binding ballpark ones).

That is some of what I do.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2017 14:37
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

In one sense, the whole idea of giving an estimate in that format is a bad idea. Think about it, you are giving a customer an itemized list- BORING!!  And it kinda shows a general lack of understanding of the public today. An old saying is to know your audience.
So I tried something new last year. And so far, I have increased my conversion rate quite a bit.
I give estimates to the public now in pictures via text. I recently turned a $350 keytop job into a $3700 rebuild within 30 minutes of the piano arriving in my shop.
Here's a photo that illustrates the tactic:
This piano needs new hammers. etc etc.  It bypasses the number fatigue of an itemized list. And communicates better to the customer.

Since most of my work is for other Piano Technicians I do have a price list for them. Afterall, proper communication of the work that needs to be done is no problem. I give them my price list, and they do the quoting for me. I just get a check in the mail and go pick up the piano.

My prices are based on how busy I want to be.

When I encounter customer's that I know don't have a lot of money, I go into charity mode and offer them great discounts. I would never take an elitist point of view and have a predetermined price written in stone such as 15/15/15.
The price list and pictures allows me to spend less time in the office and more time in the shop.




------------------------------
ChrisChernobieff
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City TN
865-986-7720
chrisppff@gmail.com chrisppff@gmail.com
http://chernobieffpiano.com/
The Declaration states, "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness…."

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 10:08
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Just curious of anyone uses software to work up a rebuild cost estimate at the time of evaluation in the home while doing inspection? That would certainly save time not having to transfer all the info to an estimate proposal to the client. Just curious how others do their rebuilding estimates.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
------------------------------

Hi Chris,

Im just now getting around to reading this thread, and I had a question about how to sell with pictures. 

Showing the client a photo of a new hammer compared to their old hammers would work well for selling a new set of hammers, but how do you sell a regulation job with pictures? Or restringing? Etc. 

Ive never been very good at selling much else other than regular tunings. I guess I'm trying to figure out how to improve without becoming a used car salesman.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2017 14:37
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

In one sense, the whole idea of giving an estimate in that format is a bad idea. Think about it, you are giving a customer an itemized list- BORING!!  And it kinda shows a general lack of understanding of the public today. An old saying is to know your audience.
So I tried something new last year. And so far, I have increased my conversion rate quite a bit.
I give estimates to the public now in pictures via text. I recently turned a $350 keytop job into a $3700 rebuild within 30 minutes of the piano arriving in my shop.
Here's a photo that illustrates the tactic:
This piano needs new hammers. etc etc.  It bypasses the number fatigue of an itemized list. And communicates better to the customer.

Since most of my work is for other Piano Technicians I do have a price list for them. Afterall, proper communication of the work that needs to be done is no problem. I give them my price list, and they do the quoting for me. I just get a check in the mail and go pick up the piano.

My prices are based on how busy I want to be.

When I encounter customer's that I know don't have a lot of money, I go into charity mode and offer them great discounts. I would never take an elitist point of view and have a predetermined price written in stone such as 15/15/15.
The price list and pictures allows me to spend less time in the office and more time in the shop.




------------------------------
ChrisChernobieff
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City TN
865-986-7720
chrisppff@gmail.com chrisppff@gmail.com
http://chernobieffpiano.com/
The Declaration states, "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness…."

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 10:08
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Just curious of anyone uses software to work up a rebuild cost estimate at the time of evaluation in the home while doing inspection? That would certainly save time not having to transfer all the info to an estimate proposal to the client. Just curious how others do their rebuilding estimates.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
------------------------------

Benjamin,

Pictures are good, but if you really want to show your clients the difference, carry a few new hammers in your case and hold them next to the ones currently in the piano; this makes the point very clearly, and leads to a lot of hammer reshaping/replacement jobs.

For regulation, I explain that the action is full of soft materials (felt, buckskin) constantly being worn down by harder materials (wood, metal), which changes the original tolerances.  Sometimes I'll pull out the action and show the owner all the points where this occurs.  I also describe how this process affects them as a pianist, which makes it more personal: They might not understand jack position or letoff, but they do sense that the piano is harder to play than it used to be, and I'm offering them both an explanation and a solution.  

If you'll show your clients how the work you're suggesting will provide immediately noticeable benefits, I believe you will see an increase in this segment of your business.

------------------------------
Kent Burnside, RPT
Franklin TN
615.430.0653
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-25-2017 19:00
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Hi Chris,

Im just now getting around to reading this thread, and I had a question about how to sell with pictures.

Showing the client a photo of a new hammer compared to their old hammers would work well for selling a new set of hammers, but how do you sell a regulation job with pictures? Or restringing? Etc.

Ive never been very good at selling much else other than regular tunings. I guess I'm trying to figure out how to improve without becoming a used car salesman.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2017 14:37
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

In one sense, the whole idea of giving an estimate in that format is a bad idea. Think about it, you are giving a customer an itemized list- BORING!!  And it kinda shows a general lack of understanding of the public today. An old saying is to know your audience.
So I tried something new last year. And so far, I have increased my conversion rate quite a bit.
I give estimates to the public now in pictures via text. I recently turned a $350 keytop job into a $3700 rebuild within 30 minutes of the piano arriving in my shop.
Here's a photo that illustrates the tactic:
This piano needs new hammers. etc etc.  It bypasses the number fatigue of an itemized list. And communicates better to the customer.

Since most of my work is for other Piano Technicians I do have a price list for them. Afterall, proper communication of the work that needs to be done is no problem. I give them my price list, and they do the quoting for me. I just get a check in the mail and go pick up the piano.

My prices are based on how busy I want to be.

When I encounter customer's that I know don't have a lot of money, I go into charity mode and offer them great discounts. I would never take an elitist point of view and have a predetermined price written in stone such as 15/15/15.
The price list and pictures allows me to spend less time in the office and more time in the shop.




------------------------------
ChrisChernobieff
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City TN
865-986-7720
chrisppff@gmail.com chrisppff@gmail.com
http://chernobieffpiano.com/
The Declaration states, "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness…."

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 10:08
From: John Minor
Subject: rebuilding estimating software?

Just curious of anyone uses software to work up a rebuild cost estimate at the time of evaluation in the home while doing inspection? That would certainly save time not having to transfer all the info to an estimate proposal to the client. Just curious how others do their rebuilding estimates.

------------------------------
John Minor
University of Illinois
------------------------------

Original Message------

Benjamin,

Pictures are good, but if you really want to show your clients the difference, carry a few new hammers in your case and hold them next to the ones currently in the piano; this makes the point very clearly, and leads to a lot of hammer reshaping/replacement jobs.

For regulation, I explain that the action is full of soft materials (felt, buckskin) constantly being worn down by harder materials (wood, metal), which changes the original tolerances.  Sometimes I'll pull out the action and show the owner all the points where this occurs.  I also describe how this process affects them as a pianist, which makes it more personal: They might not understand jack position or letoff, but they do sense that the piano is harder to play than it used to be, and I'm offering them both an explanation and a solution.  

If you'll show your clients how the work you're suggesting will provide immediately noticeable benefits, I believe you will see an increase in this segment of your business.

------------------------------
Kent Burnside, RPT
Franklin TN
615.430.0653
------------------------------