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CA glue

  • 1.  CA glue

    Posted 11-02-2017 12:15
    I don't keep CA glue around...I don't use it much. So I usually buy it when I know I need it soon because CA I keep in stock is always bad by the time I need it.

    I'm doing an on-site bridge pin CA job next week. I intended on using Loctite from a local hardware store in their "ultra thin" variety. Testing some, it was not as thin as I had hoped. Anyone have luck  sourcing local ultra thin fresh CA stock?

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: CA glue

    Posted 11-02-2017 12:17
    I should add all the local hobby shops are gone. I know I can get it on line, but would like to know if folks know about hardware store type products that fit the bill.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-02-2017 20:44
    Woodcraft Supply in Woburn, Jim.

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    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-02-2017 12:23
    There's a brand that is carried by local (mine) hobby stores that's good,  but I can't remember it offhand.   When I checked on line it turned or to be pretty well known.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-02-2017 12:41
    Rocklers has some thin CA glue. Freshness or viscosity I'm not sure. Any other local techs nearby that might have some you could use? If you have Amazon Prime, you'll get it in a day or two, assuming they have some. The stuff lasts a long time in the 'fridge, so when you do get it, keep it in there until you need it.

    Paul McCloud





    I don't keep CA glue around...I don't use it much. So I usually buy it when I know I need it soon because CA I keep in stock is always bad by the time I need it.

    I'm doing an on-site bridge pin CA job next week. I intended on using Loctite from a local hardware store in their "ultra thin" variety. Testing some, it was not as thin as I had hoped. Anyone have luck sourcing local ultra thin fresh CA stock?

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026





  • 6.  RE: CA glue

    Posted 11-02-2017 12:51
    I used Loctite Ultra Control, blue bottle, red triggers on side to dispense, on an entire treble bridge last week. I was most pleased with the results.
    I too felt it not as thin as I like but Loctite told me it was the thinnest they made.
    Hobby Lobby has one in the, I think , pink bottle that looks thinner but never used it.
    So far the loctite hasn’t let me down. It cleared up numerous false beats while applied to the pins with strings on. No dead strings from overflow.
    However, I should have removed the microphone lying on the soundboard without any foam backing. After applying the glue I worked hours on three notes, nine strings, I thought were causing sympathetic vibrations because of maybe excessive glue on the strings, until I realized my blunder. The strings were fine. The faint vibrations were from that microphone near the bass bridge on the soundboard.
    I laughtinly told my RPT buddy Wesley this story. He said seriously, “There’s a word for that but I can’t think of it”. I said “STUPID !”
    Sent from my iPhone




  • 7.  RE: CA glue

    Posted 11-02-2017 18:07
    I order a 4 ounce bottle from Dryburgh and keep it in the freezer in between uses

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-02-2017 18:10
    Jim,
    Use Loctite # 493
    You can get it at McMaster Carr. They ship the day of order and most times I receive orders the next day.
    Roger
    McMaster Carr part # is: 74985A69
    Roger

    Virus-free. www.avast.com





  • 9.  RE: CA glue

    Posted 11-02-2017 18:40
    This is the glue I've used for years from WalMart: Permatex

    I don't know what viscosity it is but it has always worked for me. My theory is that the glue works right at the top (If there's a bushing it soaks into it) and really doesn't go that deep. Never had a drop go through on a grand. I know a lot of people talk about thin viscosity, and maybe it does work fine but I'm guessing that this Permatex is a medium viscosity and it works great. And it's pretty inexpensive too! 👍

    By the way, if you do go to a WalMart store it's in the Automotive section. Go figure...

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: CA glue

    Posted 11-02-2017 19:12
    Ca's can be thinned with acetone most of the time.. You can make sure and check online the msds of the specific ca while in the store and chose the appropriate thinner.

    ------------------------------
    I have a piano in my Nuclear Fallout Shelter, and my competitors don't. How silly is that?

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-02-2017 19:51
    Is there a Hobbytown USA near you??? I've found their house brand,
    produced by Bob Smith, to be reliably fresh.




  • 12.  RE: CA glue

    Posted 11-02-2017 21:24
    thanks for all the ideas.

    Its interesting that all the model/hobby shops around me are history...there used to be a bunch...not sure why.

    I called up Ed Dryburgh and he says I should have a bottle of red Hot Stuff---water like viscosity...by saturday, which works. I will keep track of the Mcmaster suggestion, actually they carry both the loctite and another suggestion's Permatex...usually next day delivery, though not guaranteed. 

    With the hardware store Loctite Ultralight (not so ultra-light though), boy...just messing with that kaka in the shop to see if it would work, I was having the burning eyes, throat and headache. I always use positive a positive ventilation hood with this stuff, but as I was just messing with it for 5 min skipped the hood...nasty yuck of a substance. I don't remember the dryburgh being that aggressive...hope its a little easier on the membranes than the hardware store stuff.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-02-2017 22:14
    Jim.  You might try a small sporting goods store. That's who's selling the CA glue here in Hawaii. They sell the small sporting goods like fishing gear and camping equipment. 

    Wi 

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 14.  RE: CA glue

    Posted 11-02-2017 22:22

    With the hardware store Loctite Ultralight (not so ultra-light though), boy...just messing with that kaka in the shop to see if it would work, I was having the burning eyes, throat and headache. I always use positive a positive ventilation hood with this stuff, but as I was just messing with it for 5 min skipped the hood...nasty yuck of a substance. I don't remember the dryburgh being that aggressive...hope its a little easier on the membranes than the hardware store stuff.
    Jim Ialeggio,  11-02-2017 21:23
    I've read lots of reports of what you're describing. For some reason I haven't experienced it. Maybe if I'm doing a whole piano (which is rare) I might get a slight burning of my eyes but it quickly goes away. Maybe the stuff I use is low fumes? I don't know...

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-03-2017 07:20
    When using CA glue now I seem to always have an adverse reaction.  Probably just me.  So, when doing tuning pins I wear eye protection over my glasses, air mask, run a large fan, and work fast.  Seems to stop the eye problems and dizzyness.  When at all possible I make sure there is proper ventilation.

    Best to understand what the "C" in "CA" stands for.

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    Tim Coates
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 16.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-03-2017 05:22
    There is Rockler in Cambridge.
    http://www.rockler.com/retail/stores/ma/cambridge-store

    Best,

    Victor Belanger RPT,
    Belmont, MA




  • 17.  RE: CA glue

    Posted 11-03-2017 08:25
     In addition to keeping the CA glue in the freezer, I keep the glue inside a small plastic cup. That way, if there is any spill or whatever, it stays in the cup and does not go into my freezer.
    I do something similar in my toolkit. 


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    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
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  • 18.  RE: CA glue

    Posted 11-03-2017 08:41
    So  round about this time of year in Boston  as the overnights start to get in the low digits i  start bringing my  Dryburgh CA box of  thin and medium, accelerator and solvent!! inside every night and not leaving them in the car, maybe not necessary if you  can safely store them in the freezer or fridge,,,duh!.....

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    Martin Snow
    Boston MA
    617-543-1030
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  • 19.  RE: CA glue

    Posted 11-03-2017 09:26
    I get the cold storage ideas, but I no longer keep any nasties in the food refrigerator or freezer. The danger in messing with your food is simply not worth it for me. I just have to plan ahead better, include the dedicated shipping for the stuff when I need it, and use it as little as possible.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-03-2017 11:44
    Speaking of nasties, I keep the foam-safe, non-frosting CA glue on hand & order it for jobs that will take relatively large quantities (more than a drop). It's much safer for the eyes & respiratory system because of an additive that stops fumes. It comes in various viscosities. I order it from "Central Hobby" supply in Billings, MT, but Amazon is now carrying it. I know I've shared this before, but I tend to push things that are better for air quality because my dad has macular degeneration that has been connected to the chemicals he used to breathe. It scares me.

    ------------------------------
    Margaret Jusiel
    Athens WV
    304-952-8615
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: CA glue

    Posted 11-03-2017 12:04
    <It's much safer for the eyes & respiratory system because of an additive that stops fumes.

    I think they minimized the perceptible fumes, but not the nasties...its just that you don't smell them. Does anyone know whether I am correct or incorrect about that?

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-03-2017 15:22
    I had also heard (I believe from my local hobby store) that the odorless CA glues were less smelly but just as toxic. However, a quick web search indicates that they are in fact much less irritating. See the Satellite City MSDS sheets here:

    http://www.caglue.com/assets/msds/Hot%20Stuff.pdf

     http://www.caglue.com/assets/msds/UFO%20Thin.pdf
     
    Hot Stuff "May Cause Respiratory Irritation" but UFO thin does not have that warning.

    ------------------------------
    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    250-562-5358
    ps@pspianos.com
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: CA glue

    Posted 11-03-2017 17:43
    On the comparative msds's:   I find these hard to read, but look at the toxicology section. Both are identical. Any chemists out there that know how to read these with understanding?


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-03-2017 18:40
    Jim, 
    As it was explained to me in an earlier life,  when I had somewhat greater number of brain cells,  the UFO has a higher molecular weight, allowing it to sink more to knee level, instead  of rising to nose & eye level.  I didn't think the formulation itself would be any less irritating if invited or otherwise ingested.   I am extremely sensitive to the fumes, and so use it sparingly.

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-04-2017 09:35
    Oh! That makes sense! I've never understood how it could be "fumeless" and tend to wear a mask even when using the "safe" stuff, but I know my eyes don't burn with the foam safe and do with regular CA glue. If it sinks, it doesn't get into my eyes; cool. Wonder how it doesn't "frost"...or maybe is does but only in low spots? I may put a drop in a plastic box & see what happens; I know if you put regular CA glue in a black, plastic box that the inside turns white from the fumes. Thanks for the info!

    ------------------------------
    Margaret Jusiel
    Athens WV
    304-952-8615
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-03-2017 11:49
    Jim,
    One feature I like about the McMaster source for CA glue is the enumeration of about 25 different CA glues (14 that would apply to our needs) giving the specific gap filling margins, thus no mistake of the viscosity needed for our application. Also, Loctite always stamps the expiration date on the container and McMaster always sends me a container with an expiration date at least a year out.
    Roger

    Virus-free. www.avast.com





  • 27.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-03-2017 13:24
    I now prefer the CA made by Bob Smith Industries (BSI). They have the standard stuff, and a slightly flexible version (called Insta-flex) that I now use ALMOST universally as it is designed to mimic the properties of wood (which flexes). As mentioned, they pride themselves on their freshness. Slightly thicker than the water thin version.

    I buy it from Hobbylinq. Google it. They also have a thick black rubber toughened version that is very useful (and really durable) in certain instances.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-03-2017 20:51
    Hi, Jim

    My approach to avoiding damage and irritation from breathing CA is to use it only on tuning pins which absolutely are not tunable without it, and to use the minimum amount needed to get them tunable,

    If someone decides (for a reason which I cannot fathom) to treat a full pinblock with the stuff, of course it is going to get very toxic.

    All the medium loose tuning pins, which are not slipping, can be put off till another visit. As long as they are holding, they will do until they decide not to hold. At that time, and not before, they should be treated. For pins with a reasonable if low amount of torque, the feel while tuning is better than if they have been treated. Therefore, why treat the ones which don't really need it? CA on just a few pins takes only a minute or two. You don't need to schedule, bring a big bottle of glue, wear protection, turn the home into a wind tunnel, etc.

    I keep a very small bottle (Loctite, water thin) in my kit at all times, and a couple of spare bottles still on the cards for when the open one clots up. When I encounter a tuning pin so loose that it will not hold, I put on a few drops (no need to tilt an upright, just hold a shop towel under the pin to catch any which runs off.) Usually one treatment will let you tune the note a few minutes later; otherwise I put on a second dose.

    Using CA glue in such small amounts is a lot better than exposing yourself to more. "The poison is in the dose", as people say.

    When I ask myself why people want to treat a whole pinblock, the only thing I can think of is that they remember the bad old days when our only recourse for a bad pinblock was glycerin and alcohol, making a huge mess, requiring tilting of an upright, taking a week to sink in, and leaving everything feeling spongy. They perhaps are assuming that CA should be used the same as "treating" with that goop. But CA is totally different, and can be used in a different and much less all-or-none way. It's also a lot more toxic in quantity, so why use a big quantity if less will do?

    If you don't try to flood in as much as you can, you'll be a lot better off. One of CA's best qualities is that it likes to follow a crack. It wicks in very quickly. That's possibly why some loose pins need a second dose: the first dose wicked deep into the crack or delaminated pinblock, so too little was left to coat the hole around the tuning pin. The second dose goes in, and cannot follow the long cracks because they have already been sealed by the first dose.

    it seems from the repeated dialog on the list that everyone ignores this advice, or maybe they just don't believe it. I am at a loss to figure out why they don't try the minimal route, which has worked very well for me for about 25 years.



    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: CA glue

    Posted 11-03-2017 22:37
    Susan,
    I get your only-do-what's-necessary take on pinblocks. This particular one is not a pinblock. Its a 15 year old nice Forester whose bridge pins are just loosening up enough to waver throughout the entire tenor and treble. I confirmed a high percentage of pins responding to the screwdriver test...this means I'm in for a CA bath on this one, as the board, strings and action are in excellent condition...not ready for a trip to the shop yet. 

    I go in with a PAPR positive ventilation hood, and fan...not my idea of a good time.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-04-2017 01:44
    Good point, Jim.

    One possibility might be to do this in two or three well-ventilated sessions?

    Another, assuming the strings could be taken off, might be to pull out the bridge pins, dip in 5 minute epoxy, and put them back in.

    By the way, I totally overdid exposure to epoxy when drastically mending a really trashed Steinway key, and ended up sensitive to epoxy, which I'd used without incident for decades.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: CA glue

    Posted 11-04-2017 09:38
    Yes...epoxy is no mother's milk either. Its also extremely flammable. Some uncured, or rather incorrectly mixed low viscosity epoxy served as the accelerant which was highly implicated in my shop fire a couple of years ago.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-04-2017 09:48
    Jim -
    I know that Jon Page and a few others posted on this a few years ago - describing a vacum (shop vac-ish) set up that pulled air from 'staging' area and used a secondary hose to vent to the outside.  Issues of volume per minute (or second) of air moved, this is preferable to relying of a fan (or perhaps even multiple fans, since, depending upon the size of the room, a fan is likely to mostly create turbulence, thereby mixing the fumes.  
    Also make sure you have really good light, as, ideally, you'd have close eyeballs to get glue where you want it.

    Susan K's epoxy idea might be good, but care is still required, as you know.

    David S

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: CA glue

    Posted 11-04-2017 10:02
    Here's what I wear...no face exposure at all

    https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=papr+3m&ul_noapp=true

    don't be put off by the ridiculous prices...I got mine for $200 with first-responder cartridges on ebay.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: CA glue

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-04-2017 11:24
    Could you be somewhat specific as to which one you use?  There seem to be quite a few of them on the link you provided.
    david S

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------