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Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

Benjamin Sloane

Benjamin Sloane08-29-2017 04:41

  • 1.  Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-27-2017 20:17
    One of my favorite classes at the recent St Louis convention was the one given by Melanie Brooks and John Gallen of Brooks Ltd. During the class one of them mentioned a new tool Scott Jones has developed for re-weighting grand keyboards. Of the many bits of good fortune associated with my career at Steinway, one of the greatest was that I got to work there at the same time as Mr. Jones. As I was going to be doing a couple of jobs with new hammers and attendant touch weight resets, when I got home I went to pitchlock.com and ordered one. The cost was minimal and the potential upside seemed worth the time to investigate. Holy Cow was it ever.

    The way it works is that you record the down weight of the action as it is (after addressing all friction issues in both the keys and the stack). Then you remove the stack and attach the touchscale device to to a backcheck and put the same amount of weight as that recorded earlier for that key on the front of the key (see figure 1). Then slide the weight on the Touchscale forward or back until the key balances. That is until both ends of the key are in mid-air neither rising or falling. This is somewhat easier on keys with conventional balance rails than those with Steinway style half round dowels at the balance point. To change the down weight; substitute your desired gram weight on the front of the key and then add or remove lead from the key until the key balances with the new weight. Repeat 87 times and you're done. This week I re-weighed a Steinway B in about 2 hrs and when I re-installed the stack (once!) the down weights were +- 1 gram of what I had measured with the Touchweight device. For the record +- 2 grams is the standard the Steinway factory used for years regarding down weight. I've  only mentioned down weight in this post because that's what the Touchscale helps you set. I'm hopeful that anyone re-weighting keys is fully aware that the key has to go up as well as down.

    The device isn't perfect (yet). On big pianos like the model B I found a need to add more weight (see figures 4&5) for the bottom half of the keyboard. I solved this by smacking a 14 gram weight with a hammer until it was flat and adding it to the device. It would also be helpful if the brass slide had some scale markings to assist with more precise fore and aft movement of the weight. All that aside, this tool is one more example of my friend Scott coming up with something so simple and elegant that looking at it for the first time you can't help but wonder how no one thought of it before.

    Thanks to Melanie and John for bringing this tool to my attention. Thanks to Scott Jones for being a genius (Don Mannino/Tony Jaras level. Stephen Hawking don't get nervous.) so I don't have to be one in order to work like one.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-28-2017 11:19
    Sounds interesting.  I now precalculate the FW using the action ratio and the strike weight which I find is very fast and not difficult.  

    The simplified formula is:

    F = (R * S) - B + 8.5

    Where:
    F is the Front Weight
    R is the Action Ratio
    S is the Strike Weight
    B is the targeted Balance Weight

    The constant 9 is the value of the Wippen Strike Weight x the Key Ratio (typically right around .5).  Renner wippens come in around 17g, Steinway wippens about a gram lighter, on average.  If in doubt you can measure a sampling of your particular wippen.  Addressing friction in advance is not required though should be done at some point, certainly.  You will have to measure the strike weights or the hammer weights and extrapolate using an shank weight average.  You will also need to determine the Action Ratio which you can do by either the product of the levers (another discussion).  Or you can figure that out by sampling  several notes, measuring the other variables and calculating it.  You will likely have to average your outcomes as balance weight measurements using UW and DW are prone to measurement error.  

    So if R = 5.5, S = 10, and your targeted balance weight is 38 grams then the front weight for that note will be.

    (5.5 * 10) - 38 + 8.5
    or
    55 - 38 + 8.5
    or 
    25.5 grams

    Create a spread sheet using excel to make it go quicker.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Posted 08-28-2017 16:23


  • 4.  RE: Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-28-2017 17:50
    Benjamin -
    Was this sort of snarky response really necessary?

    ------------------------------
    Gerry Johnston
    Haverhill, MA
    gj@gjpianotuner.com
    www.gjpianotuner.com
    (978) 372-2250
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Posted 08-28-2017 18:30


  • 6.  RE: Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-28-2017 20:14
    Mr. Sloane,

    You should investigate the following U.S. patents:  5911167 and 5511454 before you dismiss Mr. Jones' having come up with fundamental significant modifications to the modern piano action. I was there when he was developing the idea and just because Steinway didn't produce the action for sale doesn't make it (or him) any less extraordinary.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Posted 08-28-2017 20:50


  • 8.  RE: Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-28-2017 20:57
    Anyone who is working to further the state-of-the-art of piano technology automatically has my support and encouragement, by virtue of the nature of their motivation. Plenty of us have ideas, some of us pursue them, and a very select group have the perseverance and stamina (and maybe the good fortune, as well) to see them to fruition. Scott firmly stands amongst those few, and we are all beneficiaries of his brilliance and achievements.

    Alan

    P. S. And I really like it when people praise those they respect and are inspired by. Wouldn't want to see a damper (NPI) put on that action, and am in favor of creating an environment conducive to it. If folks can't always get it exactly right, better to err on the side of too much love than too little.

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-28-2017 21:40

    Yes, very close to a further personal response.

     

     

     






  • 10.  RE: Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Posted 08-29-2017 13:19

    Gerry:  I am Ben Sloane's father and was employed at the Oberlin Conservatory full time for 24 years. I stopped working there full-time to assist with the program as a consultant and to have more time to travel. Ben worked for me part-time while I was employed there, and it is where he started his efforts to tune and rebuild pianos. Ben is also is a fine pianist who loves music and who graduated from Nyack College as a piano major.

     

    As did you, I thought that Ben's comments about Scott Jones were not appropriate. I called Ben to talk about it, but he was not available to answer his phone. I hope I can get him to "retract/modify" his post and to apologize to Scott personally who is a personal friend of mine whom I have known for years. Scott is not only a fine piano technician but also a very nice person. I value my time spent at conventions and during my trips to Steinway where I socialized and "talked piano" with Scott and many others associated with the engaging piano business. They truly were good times.

     

    Once again, I hope Ben will see fit to talk positively about all those who have chosen the "crazy" profession we seem to pursue so passionately. Differences of opinion are inevitable, but attempts to resolve them should be interesting and, hopefully, fun!     Ken Sloane   RPT



    ------------------------------
    Kenneth Sloane
    Oberlin OH
    440-775-4158
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-28-2017 22:28
    Benjamin:

    You're wasting bandwidth.  I appreciate your enthusiasm but, really, keep it constructive.  You're not doing yourself or anyone else any service here.  Instead of a productive discussion on touchweight systems you've relegated it to a defense of Scott Jones.  Neither he nor the rest of us deserve to be put in that position.  Stop please.  

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Posted 08-29-2017 00:24
    The term genius can be rather ambiguous.  Like beauty, which is or is not, in the eye of the beholder. Regardless, entrepreneurship is a tough road, and anyone willing to take it should be applauded. A little kindness never hurt either.

    ------------------------------
    ChrisChernobieff
    Chernobieff Piano Restorations
    Lenoir City TN
    865-986-7720
    chrisppff@gmail.com chrisppff@gmail.com
    http://chernobieffpiano.com/
    Make The Piano Great Again!
    Lock it up, or Cristofori will pay for it.
    Shh, I just deleted 30,000 scores from my hard drive.
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Posted 08-29-2017 02:37


  • 14.  RE: Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-29-2017 13:29
    Criticizing another member's abilities, merits, and contributions to the
    industry is highly offensive, even if you try and sugarcoat it and throw
    in a few nice words to take the edge off. This sort of commentary is
    entirely inappropriate for this discussion forum, and goes against items
    #1 and #6 of PTG's Code of Ethics, which apply to the use of this forum
    as they would any other situation.

    If your thoughts about another member are anything but positive, they
    should not be posted here.



    On 8/28/2017 1:23 PM, Benjamin Sloane via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
    >
    > Scott Jones openly admits he makes mistakes. Not too many geniuses do.??
    >
    > He never thought pitch lock could be used as a damping device on the non-speaking length of piano strings until technicians decided that is all they are good for. And that conclusion is up for debate.
    >
    > He stayed out of trouble. The police like him. But competent pianists do what he did with the touch rail for free. I sat down and talked with him once at a convention. Genius is a stretch. He did nothing to enhance the modern grand piano action. That took place over a century ago, and he's not making piano any more popular, i.e., expanding the industry.
    >
    > I am not saying he is a charlatan. The people he works with are too smart.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Benjamin Sloane
    > Cincinnati OH
    > 513-257-8480
    >




  • 15.  RE: Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Posted 08-29-2017 04:41


  • 16.  RE: Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-29-2017 07:48
    Perhaps through my inartful writing I was unclear as to why I like the Touchscale device. So here's another attempt hopefully less controversial.

    The Touchscale allows me to spend less time recording touchweight and greatly reduces the number of times I have to remove/re-install the stack if I'm changing the weigh off. It is a cool little bit of hardware that reproduces the actual stack weight on each individual key. It allows me to take a key to the drill press/anvil multiple times if necessary and not re-install the stack to see if the amount of weight added or removed is correct. It's quite inexpensive relative to the time it has already saved me.

    It's not an analysis tool. If you want to analyze the touch characteristics of an action you should follow Mr. Love's recommendations or try Nick Gravagne's AGP or Nick's Nifty Keylead Program or the Rhodes Fandrich program or learn to use the Stanwood protocols. If you don't understand the relationship of upweight and downweight in the piano you shouldn't be adding or removing keyleads in the first place.

    I have found that being able to admire my friends' accomplishments without dwelling on my own inadequacies makes me much happier than I used to be back when the movie was about me.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-29-2017 07:54
    Well said Karl. Thank you. Scott Jones is a great guy and has done much to improve the world in which we piano technicians work. An occasional public acknowledgement of such an individual's contributions ought not to be controversial.

    ------------------------------
    Gerry Johnston
    Haverhill, MA
    gj@gjpianotuner.com
    www.gjpianotuner.com
    (978) 372-2250
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Touchscale (Scott Jones is still a genius)

    Posted 08-29-2017 14:31
    I apologize to Scott Jones. All my comments in this thread are deleted.


    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------