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Voicing Able Natural Hammers

  • 1.  Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-20-2017 10:19
    So this Kawai KG-1D had rock hard hammers. I replaced the hammers with Abel Naturals. So I went too far and the hammers need to be hardened just a little bit.  I have done a whole set with lacquer but would like to use acetone and keytop solution.  I have used acetone and keytop solution for spot voicing but never for a whole set.  Could anybody give me some guidance how to approach this type of voicing?
    Thanks.

    ------------------------------
    Mike Ello
    Richmond TX
    281-633-0622
    mike@ellopianoservice.com
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-20-2017 11:26
    Mike,

    Could you describe in detail of how you "went too far" with these hammers? It's my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that hammers that are over needled, as long as they weren't Grover's Needles, the hammers will harden over time, bringing the tone "up."

    Of course, if the client doesn't want to wait a year or more, it would be better to harden them artificially....

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-20-2017 11:28
    Mike,
    I would start by keeping the acetone and keytop material below the 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock position except in the extreme treble (last octave) where you would get no closer than 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock, then finish the voicing where needed with lacquer in the remaining areas. Keep in mind there are so many variances and exceptions to any rule, it is impossible to convey any sure-shot methodology for excellent results.
    Roger  

    Virus-free. www.avast.com





  • 4.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Posted 12-20-2017 12:04
    If they just need to be hardened a little bit. Maybe try sanding off a thin layer instead of lacquering. 320-600 then finish off with 1500 or 2000 to clean them up. Or another useful technique is compacting the felt. I use a brass hammer for the shoulders and even the crown. I only use the Ace/Ketop solution at the beginning of the process and only in the low areas to build on. For making small changes I like using a 15:1 ace/sealer solution above 10 and 2.
    -chris
    #caveman

    ------------------------------
    A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
    His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
    The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
    But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Posted 12-20-2017 13:10
    Try a Hammer Iron.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 6.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-20-2017 17:16
    Thanks for all the tips. It is good to get some feed back sometimes before making a change. Especially voicing.




  • 7.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Posted 12-20-2017 18:06
    At one time Wally Brooks suggested that just pure acetone will brighten some hammers.
    I've not tried it, but there should be no danger in trying it to see if anything happens.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-20-2017 19:54
    Hi Mike,
     
    As Jon has suggested, I've used both an iron and the pounding method.  I use just a simple clothes iron and set it on high.  After it gets good and hot I lay the iron on a cluster of hammers and stroke the entire surface of the hammer with a twisting action on my wrist.  Don't linger.  You'll burn the felt.  The pounding method I've used supporting the hammers with a piece of wood appropriately sized to bridge from the whippen rail to just under the hammer where the hammer shank enters the hammer.  Repeated pounding with a small brass hammer, the back end of a voicing tool, my tuning lever or whatever is the tool d'jour for the day brings them back up to a brighter level gently as you go.
     
    I really don't like loading up hammers with liquid hardners.  It never has appealed to me and I've NEVER done it ..... going on 45 years now.  If Ron N were here he'd most likely fill your ears with his opinion on the stuff.





  • 9.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-20-2017 20:22
    As Mr. Sutton/Wally has suggested, straight acetone might be a place to start. It has worked for me when I want a little, not alot.
    The suggestions of sanding with very fine grit, hammer iron, pound the strike point are all tried and true methods Mike. You'll be fine.

    ------------------------------
    -Phil Bondi
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  • 10.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Posted 12-20-2017 18:44
    If they are over needled, you can bring them back somewhat by pounding on them with a hammer or block or the back end of a voicing tool. Support the tails on a surface.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Posted 12-20-2017 20:15
    The first rebuild I ever undertook, was my own piano...I put two boards in that baby.   In the process, it went through a huge number of experiments, as I was in the newbie learning phase. In the process of learning to voice, I beat the tar out of some Ronsen Bacons, which are a very soft hammer to start with. Learning, I created puff balls out of those hammers. Then as I continued experimenting over a period of a couple of years, reshaped, mated, and added a minuscule amount of 7:1 lacquer/acetone precisely to the contact points only, and the tone lost the puff, and became a noiseless crisp attack...sweet, just like I wanted it, without any harshness. It has adequate living room sized power if I choose to drive it.

    A really soft, light hammer, with time and tiny bits of lacquer precisely applied can be quite a nice combination of procedures. 

    On the 7:1, being only a very tiny application, applied with a pipe cleaner dipped in the lacquer, applied only at the contact point in each groove, the first application lasted through about 5 minutes of play. But...applied a second time, again, in tiny amounts, the crispness came back, only this time it returned to stay.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2017 09:00
    Mike,

    I am in the camp of highly diluted hardener used sparingly as has been enumerated above. 
    However, the very first thing I would do is shape those hammers to resemble the pointy end of an egg. Quite frankly this takes some care, effort and time, to do it this way.  I don't worry about cutting through "layers" of felt. I want a small shape at the strike point. This can do wonders for the tone.  Aim for the shape that Steinway publishes in their tech manual.  Using 150 paper rather than 80 can help...more control.

    Just do one hammer first and see what you get. If improved, add a tiny amount of hardener at strike like Jim said. If improved still, do the rest.

    Over and over I have found SHAPE to be more important than most other factors.  The other things then work better when the shape is right.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Posted 12-21-2017 09:07
    Agree with Peter on the shaping...first.

    Before shaping as Peter described, with the carbon paper trick, prove precisely where the actual apex of the strike is actually making contact with the strings. Don't work to a theoretical strike point with a line drawn through perpendicular to the shank through the center of the core. Instead prove where the strike is actually happening and shape to that proven as-built impact point.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2017 10:35
    Which brings up another point to remember: if you plan on reshaping, remember to level your hammer height first. Otherwise, you'll end up with hammers that weren't shaped evenly, and tone regulation will be next to impossible until the hammers are reshaped - the right way this time.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-24-2017 00:56
    (edited for a few typos and omissions)

    Getting into this late.  Lots of different opinions.  I'd be curious to know what you did exactly that was going too far.  Makes a difference on how you approach recapturing some of the lost power (I presume that's what you're concerned about).  

    Generally I am not a fan of reshaping hammers to something other than their original shape.  Usually this means making them pointier when they aren't naturally that way.  On some hammers it doesn't really matter, for example, hammers that have a fair amount of lacquer in them.  The lacquer binds the felt and so cutting through layers of what might have been tensioned felt doesn't really have any impact on the overall hammer structure.  Sometimes reshaping a hammer to be more pointy shape when it isn't that way naturally can take something off a hammer.  For example, with Renner Blues that are too hard, you can take something off of them by filing them to a point and the process of cutting through layers at the crown will  cause it to "relax".  The crown will lose some of the tension that keeps the crown firm and soften up.  But you're really killing those layers so I wouldn't recommend this unless you're desperate.  It might have the opposite effect than you want.  There are some hammers that have been pressed to the point where there isn't any tension or reactivity left in the thing anyway so it doesn't matter what kind of filing you do, they probably won't sound good anyway.  But in this case I believe it is better to maintain the original shape.

    If you've killed the hammer by too much deep needling close to the crown then it's difficult to bring that back.  You can try, as suggested, pounding on the crown to try and set the felt using a small hammer, even using the rounded pein side of the hammer can help in this case.  Some hammers will respond to needling below the staple (battery voicing it has been called) but not all hammers will and I don't believe the Abel Natural will respond to that.  You can file some of the dead layers off the top but depending on how you needled the crown you may or may not achieve the desired result and may simply change the blow distance, mess up your mating and shorten the life of the hammer for naught.  

    If you are, as you describe, only slightly below the level you want then I wouldn't do a lot.  Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.  Using keytop solution for this is, in my opinion, a definite no.  Keytop offers a quick way to bring back some "ping" or brightness on the strikepoint of the hammer but I think it is best reserved for concert situations where you must have results now and not later.  The material is otherwise relatively unforgiving, tends to form hard spots and and can make for unwanted noise that will be heard in a more intimate setting.  Recall that the very crown of the hammer is typically not crystalline at all but rather just the opposite--a softish outer coating that gets progressively harder as you go deeper.  Not a hard outer surface and one that gets softer as you go deeper.   That's bassackwards. 

    Nor would I resort to adding lacquer at all and certainly not any hard setting lacquers like sanding sealers or table top lacquers.  Not a good match for that hammer.  If you have to use lacquer use a soft setting lacquer like Pianotek's Pianolac and use a 10 - 15% solution (10-15% lacquer 85 - 90% thinner.  Apply from the shoulders and let it wick all the way under and to the crown.  Use lacquer thinner as it flashes off slower and allows for a more complete creep.  Keytop solution should not be used for general hammer saturation under any circumstances, in my opinion. 

    However, if it were me I would try and set the felt with some blows with a small hammer as described and then polish the top of the hammer with progressively finer paper up to 1000 grit.  Make sure that the hammer string mating is precise and let the hammer play in for awhile.  The setting of the felt and polishing should give the tone a shine and clarity even if it lacks some power.  Those hammers do tend to play in fairly quickly, as far as hammers go, and will come up over time.  Once they get to where you want them they will likely have some greater stability than either using hardeners or filing this natural hammer into an unnatural shape. 

    Good Luck and Happy Holidays.


    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-24-2017 02:51
    .... what David said  .......  totally!!
     
    and a typical voicing tool has room for four needles.  I've never used all four.  I only use one.  I can control the process better  ...  in smaller steps  ....  and have never over voiced a hammer as a result.  It takes a bit more pushing the danged action back in the action cavity and back out again but consider the cost of over voicing vs. stopping before it gets to be expensive.





  • 17.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-24-2017 11:13
    David,

    On the subject of hammer shape, a few years ago I would have said precisely what you said...follow the original shape of the hammer (for all the good reasons you mentioned). 

    Breaking that mental conditioning is not easy. The first time I shaped a hammer this way (pointy egg) I thought: "What am I doing? Am I destroying this thing?"  (Of course I did it initially on hammers that I was willing to replace if all went bad).  Anyway, after the first one I stuck in the piano and played it and said: "Wow! Not bad...but maybe it's just a fluke! I'll have to do a few more to see". So I did a few more and I found I was quite happy with the results.  Finished the set that way.  Tone, clarity, power all improved. (Of course there would be improvement if I followed the traditional protocol, but this was an experiment and I was very pleasantly surprised).

    So naturally I started filling all hammers, new and old, this way, with equally impressive results...meaning that there's not a whole lot left to do except fit the hammers to the strings (which is easier this way) and usually just voice down a few that are too bright.

    I admit that cutting through "layers" of felt initially made me very apprehensive. Changing 40 years of conditioning ain't easy. But as far as I'm concerned, the results speak for themselves. To me, it's better. Takes me longer to file the darn things, but it's worth it.

    I suggest experimentation. Don't just take my word for it.  It is also possible that you won't like the results and discard the idea. That's also fine.  I didn't dream this up. I learned it from others who may know more than I do. But i was willing to give it a try. Hapoy i did. 

    I would still recommend it on this piano (remember that I suggested he try ONE and see if it makes any difference. Then go from there). 

    One further suggestion is: sometimes filing AWAY from the strike point on both sides (rather than toward it) especially in the final stage of shaping can be helpful. 

    Pwg


    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-24-2017 13:36
    Thanks. I don't take anybody's word for anything in this arena.  I don't think it's a matter of  mental conditioning.  I have done most everything I can think of to hammers over the years (including reshaping) and as I mentioned filing to that shape can be ok in some circumstances.  In other cases I have not found it to be a benefit and in some cases a detriment.   Some pianos will benefit from a pointier shape (all things being equal) and some will prefer a rounder shape.   Some hammers under certain conditions can tolerate reshaping and some can't.  My general preference is to maintain the original shape unless there is a compelling reason to change it.  If the hammer is responsive to judicious needling then I prefer that method to altering the structure of the hammer.  

    Those hammers I have found that will tolerate and maybe benefit from reshaping are:
    NY Steinway or lacquered hammers
    Hammers that are overpressed or cooked to the point of having no liveliness or tensioned response in the felt.  

    Those that do not tolerate reshaping as well (unless you're after the effects of detensioning crown layers) are:
    Renner Blues (for example)
    Hammers that generally hold and rely on tension
    Hammers that rely on stretching to achieve density especially at the crown.

    Interestingly, in my various experiments with Ronsen hammers (generally a highly tensioned hammer) in the low profile configuration that I currently use I have found that even filing after the pressing can make a difference in the performance of the hammer.  My generally request there is to dimension the felt sheets to the proper thickness before the pressing and once pressed to file the outer surface very modestly and not to change the shape, especially from somewhat more rounded (if it comes out that way) to pointy.  It makes a difference and those that are filed post production to a pointier shape are noticeably less lively.  If the hammer is subsequently lacquered then it doesn't really matter.

    But we are sometimes listening to and targeting different things so I would not be surprised if there are varying opinions.



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Voicing Able Natural Hammers

    Posted 12-24-2017 14:20
    David,
    I think you should make a video to sell.
    -chris

    On Dec 24, 2017 1:36 PM, "David Love via Piano Technicians Guild" <Mail@connectedcommunity.org> wrote:
    Thanks. I don't take anybody's word for anything in this arena.  I don't think it's a matter of  mental conditioning.  I have done most everything...
    Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.

    Pianotech

      Post New Message
    Re: Voicing Able Natural Hammers
    Reply to Group Reply to Sender
    Dec 24, 2017 1:36 PM
    David Love
    Thanks. I don't take anybody's word for anything in this arena.  I don't think it's a matter of  mental conditioning.  I have done most everything I can think of to hammers over the years (including reshaping) and as I mentioned filing to that shape can be ok in some circumstances.  In other cases I have not found it to be a benefit and in some cases a detriment.   Some pianos will benefit from a pointier shape (all things being equal) and some will prefer a rounder shape.   Some hammers under certain conditions can tolerate reshaping and some can't.  My general preference is to maintain the original shape unless there is a compelling reason to change it.  If the hammer is responsive to judicious needling then I prefer that method to altering the structure of the hammer.  

    Those hammers I have found that will tolerate and maybe benefit from reshaping are:
    NY Steinway or lacquered hammers
    Hammers that are overpressed or cooked to the point of having no liveliness or tensioned response in the felt.  

    Those that do not tolerate reshaping as well (unless you're after the effects of detensioning crown layers) are:
    Renner Blues (for example)
    Hammers that generally hold and rely on tension
    Hammers that rely on stretching to achieve density especially at the crown.

    Interestingly, in my various experiments with Ronsen hammers (generally a highly tensioned hammer) in the low profile configuration that I currently use I have found that even filing after the pressing can make a difference in the performance of the hammer.  My generally request there is to dimension the felt sheets to the proper thickness before the pressing and once pressed to file the outer surface very modestly and not to change the shape, especially from somewhat more rounded (if it comes out that way) to pointy.  It makes a difference and those that are filed post production to a pointier shape are noticeably less lively.  If the hammer is subsequently lacquered then it doesn't really matter.

    But we are sometimes listening to and targeting different things so I would not be surprised if there are varying opinions.



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------
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    Original Message------

    Thanks. I don't take anybody's word for anything in this arena.  I don't think it's a matter of  mental conditioning.  I have done most everything I can think of to hammers over the years (including reshaping) and as I mentioned filing to that shape can be ok in some circumstances.  In other cases I have not found it to be a benefit and in some cases a detriment.   Some pianos will benefit from a pointier shape (all things being equal) and some will prefer a rounder shape.   Some hammers under certain conditions can tolerate reshaping and some can't.  My general preference is to maintain the original shape unless there is a compelling reason to change it.  If the hammer is responsive to judicious needling then I prefer that method to altering the structure of the hammer.  

    Those hammers I have found that will tolerate and maybe benefit from reshaping are:
    NY Steinway or lacquered hammers
    Hammers that are overpressed or cooked to the point of having no liveliness or tensioned response in the felt.  

    Those that do not tolerate reshaping as well (unless you're after the effects of detensioning crown layers) are:
    Renner Blues (for example)
    Hammers that generally hold and rely on tension
    Hammers that rely on stretching to achieve density especially at the crown.

    Interestingly, in my various experiments with Ronsen hammers (generally a highly tensioned hammer) in the low profile configuration that I currently use I have found that even filing after the pressing can make a difference in the performance of the hammer.  My generally request there is to dimension the felt sheets to the proper thickness before the pressing and once pressed to file the outer surface very modestly and not to change the shape, especially from somewhat more rounded (if it comes out that way) to pointy.  It makes a difference and those that are filed post production to a pointier shape are noticeably less lively.  If the hammer is subsequently lacquered then it doesn't really matter.

    But we are sometimes listening to and targeting different things so I would not be surprised if there are varying opinions.



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------