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Tuning Shenanigans

  • 1.  Tuning Shenanigans

    Member
    Posted 09-02-2017 22:13

    I'm seeking insight and guidance on a situation I have where I cannot seem to set a temperament aurally on a particular upright piano. 

    It's a Baldwin Hamilton upright.  I just cannot set a temperament aurally on this piano! I can tune other pianos, what is different about this one? 

    The first time it happened, I thought I was just having a bad day, fired up the ETD and tuned it up. I like to tune aurally because most of time I'm faster that way, and it feels more efficient.  But no worries, chalked it up to a bad day, one of those things... and never gave it another thought. 

    I went back to the same piano today. Same thing. It's like there is too much happening harmonically (or partially, if that's a word!) and several beats happening at once. 

    I simply cannot seem to tune that piano without an ETD.

    When listening to the temperament intervals it's like I can hear several beats and I'm having a hard time tuning! My temperament ends up being completely discombobulated!

    Ugh. I've been tuning a while and I'm aware of the effects of false beats, maybe that's what I"m encountering with this piano. One clue, when I'm tuning with the ETD there are a couple unisons in the temperament range that seem dirty, noisy and not right. They never fully "null out" and again, I would describe them as harmonically complex. These are on plain strings, not wound. 


    Comparing this to most pianos I tune, I can hear the partials I'm listening for, and I can set a temperament and tune away. No issues. This piano is different!

    I've tuned other Baldwin Hamilton pianos and don't have this problem with them. It's not the make and model of the piano. It's a mystery to me at this point. I'd love to hear what others do in similar situations.  

    I'm considering flipping the piano on it's back, checking the seating of the string on the bridge and plate etc. thoughts on that? 

    I'm also considering quitting piano tuning and becoming a brain surgeon, I'm sure it's easier!!

    Sean 




    ------------------------------
    Sean Stafford
    Endicott NY
    607-239-4643
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-02-2017 22:45
    Sean

    I know what you're talking about. Sometimes a piano is just obnoxious. One suggesting that might help is to try a different temperament sequence. Instead of 3rds and 6ths, use only 4th and 5ths. Expand the temperament octave to 2 octaves. Something or anything to mix it up. 

    Good luck. 

    BTW, brain surgery is not all that it's cracked up to be. lol

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2017 02:09
    Hi, Wim

    <<BTW, brain surgery is not all that it's cracked up to be. lol>>

    You just can't get decent material to work on these days ...

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2017 00:12
    Sean,

    Since you mention that you have not had any problems tuning other Baldwin Hamilton pianos, this situation seems quite similar to a NEW grand piano my sister bought many years ago.

    I watched my tuner has he started tuning the piano with his Sight O Tuner at the time. I could see that he quickly became frustrated with the cacophony of sounds coming out of the piano as he attempted to tune it.

    A few days later he brought in two other techs who noticed the same thing.

    The piano could not be tuned - it had loose hitch pins.

    This may or may not be the problem with the piano you are looking at.

    Please don't become discouraged. We all run into a difficult piano from time to time.

    Paul

    ------------------------------
    Paul Brown, RPT
    President
    Piano Technicians Guild
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    Email: pres@ptg.org
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2017 02:06
    High inharmonicity can change the speed of the thirds so if you are starting by setting an FA third at 7 bps you can get in trouble. Instead start with a series of contiguous thirds that beat at a ratio of 4:5 within an octave or use an expanded temperament sequence, either two octaves or at least down to C#3.  

    Tune A4, A3, A2 to get relatively clean octaves and double octave. Probably 4:2 octaves on that piano but could be closer to a 2:1.

    Then tune a sequence of contiguous thirds: A2, C#3, F3, A3, C#4, F4 to beat at 4:5 ratio.  Use that for your basic structure from which to continue the sequence and use those notes as checks.  Tune the temperament from C#3 - F4 (at least).  Never be more than one step away from at least one of your contiguous thirds notes.

    You'll find on that and similar pianos that the temperament octaves are probably a little narrower than normal and that the FA 3rd beats a bit slower than normal. 

    My sequence after that progressed:

    D4, A#3, F#3 (now you have another set of contiguous thirds), D#4, B3, G3 (and another), E4, C4, G#3, E3 (and yet another). Each of those notes in that sequence will offer you other 3rd/6th, 4th/5th, 3rd/10th etc., checks as you progress through the sequence.  

    After E3 continue the sequence C3, D#3, B2, D3, A#2 (same ideas) and now you have a two octave temperament that will be tailored to that particular piano. 

    Hamiltons aren't necessarily the easiest to set an aural temperamnet on especially if they aren't clean.  Personally I'd do a straight machine tuning.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2017 16:06
    I realize now that isn't really what you were asking.  But it did remind me of how temperaments can vary on different instruments and a way around that problem by using contiguous thirds focused temperament setting.  

    Sounds like the piano just has a lot of falseness and lack of clarity, perhaps oscillating speaking lengths due to poor terminations, loose bridge pins etc. That can make even the best aural tuners feel like they need brain surgery.  As I mentioned, since you have a device don't waste your aural efforts on this one, not worth agonizing over it or letting it disrupt your confidence.  Some pianos just suck.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Posted 09-03-2017 17:04
    "As I mentioned, since you have a device don't waste your aural efforts on this one, not worth agonizing over it or letting it disrupt your confidence.  Some pianos just suck." - Dave Love 

    Yes. Words (for a piano tuner) to live by!

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2017 02:08
    <grin> The average brain these days seems to be so challenged that I doubt surgery could help it work better. You just reminded me of an episode in Deep Space Nine when some genetically enhanced but really crazy people (usually institutionalized) come to do brain surgery to help one of them to be able to speak. Offhand, one of them, after the Deep Space Nine doctor talks anxiously about making millions of new connections, says, "how hard could it be?"

    You might try changing the muting. See if tuning the temperament using the right string works better than using the middle. If that is no different, try using the left string only. You could also try massaging the wire with one of those beat suppressor levers and see if that helps. Or you could just push through the difficulty -- do your best without being perfectionist, see if you can get all the fifths and fourths equally awful after setting a fairly logical slightly stretched octave ... do it many times, see how it goes. You might be happy later to have done this when faced with tuning an even more challenged instrument.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2017 08:07
    Sean,

    I have encountered about 1/2 dozen pianos over the years that I would consider truly "untunable", partly exhibiting the symptoms you have mentioned. First I want to ask:

    Is the owner satisfied with what you (or others) have been able to do with it?  What comments (if any) do they have about it?

    A few things to consider in addition to others suggestions...

    1) A ceiling fan can really screw things up and make you think you're hearing things...but I am assuming that is not part of the equation (just thought I'd mention it).

    2) It is remotely possible that the piano was strung with some or all wrong gauges of wire. It is not unheard of due to the pressures of a manufacturing assembly line environment. This can produce what you describe.

    3) I would probably try seating the strings to see if that makes a difference. If so It will be temporary but it's part of the diagnosis. 

    4) Bridge pins could be very loose, as well as the bridge itself to the soundboard (I had this on a Baldwin just a couple years ago)...pull the action and inspect carefully.   Or it could also have severe negative downbearing.

    The loose hitch pin situation that was mentioned is very interesting. 

    Anything that is SUPPOSED to be tight and immovable but is currently moving is a candidate for suspicion.  THERE IS A REASON ... You just don't know what it is yet.

    However, in the end you may need to simply do the best you can, collect your fee, and decide whether you actually want to see the thing again. ☺

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Posted 09-03-2017 08:18
    What does the piano sound like overall after tuning with the ETD? And have you listened to the same problem intervals to compare the sound after tuning with the ETD? Is it only in the temperament area?

    I have noticed that in most Hamiltons I tune, the first 3-5 plain wire string sets are spaced widely and there is significant bleed-through of the sound when using a strip mute. I have to use hammer felt mutes in that section. Without the hammer felt mutes, it's quite difficult to hear beats, and sounds like what you described.

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
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  • 11.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Member
    Posted 09-03-2017 08:51
    I would check the glue joint of the bridges to the soundboard . I have run into a few hamiltons that had problems especially at the lower end of the bridge. In one case there was barely any sound and in other cases it was diminished . Two of the pianos where in churches and another in a school. The separation may be obvious or barely visible but one way to check is putting a long screwdriver through the strings and press down on the bridge cap while playing several keys . The school system here has many hamiltons that take a beating yet work well. The major issues I see are peeling hammer felt and walking action centers but for the most part they have been all very tunable and playable. I use a SAT III but also make aural adjustments on unisons

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2017 17:49
    Sean:  I have tuned many Baldwin Hamilton's and they all have wild things in F-3.  I use my accu-tuner for those.  Like Wim suggeated try 4ths and 5ths and the double octave temperament.  While I have never tried it you might try a D-3, D-4 temperament.  It might be better but it might be worse.

    Clarence

    ------------------------------
    Clarence Zeches
    Piano Service Enterprise School of Technology
    Toccoa GA
    706-886-4035
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2017 18:21

    Sean,

    You identified the very piano that frustrated the daylights out of Dr. Al Sanderson.  He was known to have said, "There is NO program for that piano!"  Yet, the late Owen Jorgensen raised three sons by tuning them as his regular practice at Michigan State University.  I agree with David Love in that the Contiguous Major Thirds (CM3) is at least one solution to the problem because if you know how to use that system effectively, the piano itself will tell you what is right for it, rather than you trying to impose what you think should be right and never getting it to work.

    Owen Jorgensen however, never used CM3's.  He always used the classic Braide-White style 4ths and 5ths temperament sequence but he knew how to manipulate it.  He must have had the same problem as you, initially but when faced with what he had to work with, sooner or later, he found a solution.  So, there are really two ways to approach the problem with Equal Temperament.  You should use the one which suits you best, based upon your usual practice and experience.  Professor Jorgensen did acknowledge that when he heard about the newly resurrected use of CM3's that the value of them was the fact that they served to divide the octave into three, perfectly equal parts.

    The problem with the Baldwin Hamilton (and many other short scaled pianos) is that in the lowest several plain wire strings in the low tenor, there is extremely high inharmonicity.  Then, the two wound string bichords in the low tenor and those on the upper part of the Bass bridge have much more reasonable amounts of inharmonicity.  When you are tuning by ear, the 5ths, for example have two sets of audible coincident partials at both the 3:2 and 6:4 levels.  As you may know, inharmonicity increases geometrically with each higher partial.  In the case of a very high inharmonicity string such as in this kind of piano, the amount of increase is nothing short of a staggering amount!

    An aural tuner will normally compare 4ths & 5ths plus M3's and M6's.  This means in this case that you are comparing apples, oranges, peaches and grapes and expecting to make them all to be like one generic piece of fruit which only exists in theory.  In other words, it cannot really be done so there is no use in becoming so frustrated with an unsolvable problem.  That being said, there definitely is more than one way to find a tolerable compromise.

    The problem that most often occurs is that aural tuners think they must "assign" a 7 beat per second beat rate to the F3-A3 M3.  If you do that, you never will get a decent Equal Temperament out of it.  If, on the other hand, you know how properly work with the initial chain of CM3's from F3 to A4 (four of them, not just three), you can still get the proper 4:5 ratio between them but their beat rates will be somewhat different from the way they are on a better scaled piano.  You will probably find, for example that the F3-A3 M3 is closer to 6 beats per second than 7.  But don't assign it, let it happen.

    Another mistake that is often made is to decide that because of the high inharmonicity, would it not be better to start with a fairly wide initial temperament octave?  NO!  Use the most common, F3-F4 temperament octave and start with it at the easy to determine, 4:2 type.  The high inharmonicity of that range will then allow you to fit the upper octaves much more easily. If you start with a wider octave, you will have to tune the upper octaves all the more sharply or you will end up with narrow double and triple octaves which will make the entire piano sound poorly.

    If you are not accustomed to setting an initial chain of CM3's and prefer a classic 4ths & 5th sequence, you'll need to again have your temperament octave not overly stretched.  The 4ths & 5ths will need to be a bit more tempered sounding than what you may be used to doing.  They will actually be more like the theoretical values.  You simply ignore the fact of the more rapid sounding beat of the 6:4 5th.  Only you may actually hear that but not the client.  To them, it may well sound more like a pleasing resonance rather than an annoying and completely unsolvable dilemma.

    In Owen Jorgensen's very last Journal article, he had a solution for the low tenor of such pianos.  It was to make the minor thirds (m3) be as even as possible and to ignore the consequences in other intervals such as octaves and 5ths.  The late George Defebaugh also talked about this.  There is no music, really, where open 5ths and single octaves are exposed in this area of the piano.  The rapidly beating intervals are where the "music" is.  Pianists are not likely to "bang" on open 5ths and octaves in that area of the piano and complain that they do not sound "pure" but they may very well do that in both the upper and lower octaves.  It is the chords that they play that they want to sound harmonious.  The tempering in 5ths is largely masked and "swallowed" in the context of music.

    I will also go out on a limb here to say, after all this time, that yet another solution can very well be to not try to tune Equal Temperament at all. It is standard practice and of that I am very well aware.  I shocked and irritated many people some 25 years ago when I brought up the subject of non-equal temperaments.  Many technicians were astounded when I said that I never tune any piano that way.  I still most often do not.  Certainly, in the case of a Baldwin Hamilton, I never would.

    Back in the day, many technicians found such a statement to be outrageous.  One even went so far to say that it was unethical, if not illegal behavior.  Yet, I persisted and still tune almost every piano in a mild, Victorian style Well Temperament.  Attitudes have softened since then as more technicians have come to realize that it is a viable option.

    A local musician and musicologist and PhD performer once said, "Poor scales eat Well Temperament".  Indeed, they do.  So, I also suggest that you consider the fact that the perfectly arranged equality found in Equal Temperament is not really possible on a poorly scaled piano, so why should you even try to do what is not really possible?  Find something else that actually works better.  I did.  Time and again, year after year, I get the voluntary comments from people with spinets, consoles and studio pianos such as the Baldwin Hamilton that I somehow made their piano sound better and more musically satisfying and pleasurable than any other technician ever did.

    The bottom line in each and every case was that I cared for the piano in a dignified way.  I cleaned the interior, the case and keys, made it play properly, look dignified and I put the money for it that I received in the bank, the same as I have for any higher quality instrument.  Those would never be a piano I would wish to have or to listen to but they were the pianos that my clients owned and cherished, so rather than hate them and say to myself that I could not tune them and would not even try to maintain them otherwise, I always performed the skills that any piano technician should have and regularly execute on them.  I would quite often get far more than a usual fee for what I did, often got generous tips as well.

    If you or anyone else would like an updated plan for how to tune aurally a piano with a mild (nearly equal but not quite) Victorian style Well Temperament, please write me at: billbrpt@charter.net  Please do not ask me for electronic tuning instructions.  They will not really work.



    ------------------------------
    William Bremmer
    RPT
    Madison WI
    608-238-8400
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2017 19:57
    Bill,
    Your thoughts on this are very insightful and appreciated. I would definitely agree that WT is the way to go.

    BTW, EBVT I, II, or III...your general preference?

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2017 21:43
    Peter,

    Thank you.  The process of defining exactly what I meant to do some 25 years ago was very difficult to put into writing.  I basically learned on the way. Therefore, there were the EBVT, EBVT II and III but really, there was always only one idea.  Therefore, it is now known as simply the EBVT even though I have not changed anything yet on my website, (that is a whole other story and can of worms).  It has now long been finalized and I had a recent student interested in it, so I re-wrote the entire subject.  I am sure you know how that goes.  Five years from now, I may think it is ridiculous but it is where I am now with it.  The bottom line is that the basic idea has never really changed.  It is just how it is described that has.  Is that any different from the many ways that there have been to describe how to tune ET?

    Writing, including technical writing is a skill unto itself.  It really cannot be taught except to a certain point.  After that, it has to be learned by experience.  To try to describe to anyone, much less another piano technician, how to really do what we as piano technicians do is an enormously complex problem!

    If you or anyone would like to receive my most recent writing upon the subject of how to tune the EBVT by ear, please write me at billbrpt@charter.net

    ------------------------------
    William Bremmer
    RPT
    Madison WI
    608-238-8400
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2017 21:50
    With regards to a ceiling fan, I usually say leave it on at high speed,  I normally need the comfort it provides and can distinguish between the distortion it gives and the comfort it provides.  I do not like to work up as sweat when I am tuning.

    ------------------------------
    William Bremmer
    RPT
    Madison WI
    608-238-8400
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-04-2017 01:09
    I would still get a ceiling fan turned off, but in California when tuning in extreme heat, I'd carry a small table fan with me, turn it on low and aim it straight at myself. They are very quiet, and the smaller blades at higher speed don't distort the sound. I remember a few times stopping halfway through, going to the bathroom, and wetting my head, on the verge of heat stroke. I don't miss Stockton.

    Luckily it seldom is that big an issue here, though we're into a ferociously hot and dry late summer, with a huge fire risk. We've been having a light smoky haze for weeks, apparently from BC forest fires. Today the smoke got a lot worse, which appears to be from the Eagle Creek fire in the Columbia Gorge. I heard that San Francisco got to 107 F a day or two ago, an all-time high in a place totally unused to it. Between hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, droughts, heat waves, and wildfires -- well, y'all take care out there ...

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-04-2017 00:52
    I think you've really nailed this one, Bill, right on target, complete with a rich history and many detailed suggestions. 

    If I could make a short paraphrase of what you are saying, I might conclude that a piano like this requires a flexible attitude and the embrace of many different virtues instead of a dogmatic and rigid application of rules as taught. Given enough flexibility and what one might call "ugliness avoidance", it may well be that an aural tuner along my lines might stray into a less than perfectly equal temperament, without worrying about it.

    It's been many years (like about 38) since I've tried to make F-A 7 beats per second. I added the contiguous major thirds to the tuning routine (right after setting A3, F2, and F3) about that time, and it has served me well. If a piano like a Hamilton requires a slower F-A major third than I'd like, and if it doesn't respond well to a stretched octave and nearly pure fifths and fourths -- well, it's not a 9 foot grand. It can only do what it can do.

    I suppose that my approach to pianos with "troubled" tenors and tenor-bass breaks might be described as "minimize as much of the obnoxiousness as possible within a normal length of time, then don't fret." When I first started tuning and encountered intractable problems such as a note with horrible false beats in the middle treble, I would say to myself in an anguished tone, "I CAN'T leave it sounding like THAT!!" Pretty soon I began countering that by saying, "they're used to hearing it sounding even worse."

    And yes, the dignity of any piano. Clean, minor problems fixed, and plenty of effort to get them sounding good. A careful explanation of any condition which the owner should be aware of, and what might or might not be done about it. We do take money for this work, after all.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-04-2017 12:20
    Thank you, Susan,

    There are many kinds of piano technicians.  There are some who work exclusively in concert halls and recording studios.  There are others who work at University schools of music.  There are those who live in a large enough city and have been in business long enough to be able to have an exclusive clientele of only fine grands.  There are those who do rebuilding work most of the time and the only time they are out tuning is when they are taking care of the instruments they have rebuilt or other fine instruments.

    All of the above, I would say, constitute only a small minority of those who are professional piano technicians.  The rest, as I am and always have been, are general practitioners.  The neighborhood piano technician.  The small town piano technician.  We may get our fair share of the finer instruments, we may service some some concert venues, schools, churches, local recording studios, restaurants, hotels, senior care facilities and so forth.  We may even do some occasional large repair jobs such as action parts replacement and restringing but for the most part, we earn our living tuning and servicing all types of pianos, even those which we do not personally like.

    I used to liken it to being a neighborhood veterinarian.  Sure, there are vets who only treat thoroughbred race horses or are exclusive to pedigree animals but the neighborhood vet has to care for whatever comes through the door.  There is always something that can be done, even if it is to perform a caring and comforting euthanasia.  

    These days, if a piano really is no longer serviceable, I direct customers to Craigslist where people are sometimes giving away a perfectly useful instrument.  Others are priced in the low three figures.  People often ask me how much their piano is worth and that becomes a delicate question to answer.  I have to start with the fact that many hundreds of thousands of good quality pianos have been built and the testimony as to how well they were built is the fact that they are still good and useful after 50 years.  What other product of any kind is there which can compare to that?

    The reasons for the decline of the piano industry are many but that is one of them.  Once a piano goes out the door of the factory, it is likely to be useful for an entire lifetime or beyond.  A new one cannot be sold to a family every five to ten years.  The new one  that was bought in the 1950's went to the children and now the grandchildren have it and are starting lessons on it with the great grandchildren.

    So, when it comes to the question about what it will cost to take apart the Acrosonic, clean it out, tighten the flanges, file and align the hammers, regulate it, raise the pitch and fine tune it, all which would take an entire day, the answer is that it will cost more than the piano is worth.  Often far more.  But that does not mean the services are not worth having done.  The family is not interested in selling the piano.  It is THEIR piano!  I will usually say that while the piano has little or no market value as it is now, if the investment is made to have the piano sound and play as the manufacturer intended, it will then usually be worth at least twice as much as the tuning and repair services cost.

    It would be a good idea for many general practitioner type technicians to also learn finish repair such as burn, scratch and dent repair as well as to learn how to repair chips in keytops.  Many customers have a threshold for tuning rates but when it comes to other services like those, they will pay whatever you ask.  Adding a little dignity to the piano can often make a tuning service call turn into bottom line profits that will sustain the business.

    Regarding again the ceiling fan, the reason it causes distortion I am told is the Doppler effect.  When the blades are turning at a slow or moderate speed, the distortion they cause can be unnerving, yes.  The idea of bringing in your own fan is fine but if you find yourself in a situation where it is hot and there is no other fan available, simply crank up the ceiling fan to top speed.  The blades are likely to turn so fast that the Doppler effect is no longer heard or at least, it can be distinguished from the beats of intervals that you are trying to tune.

    ------------------------------
    William Bremmer
    RPT
    Madison WI
    608-238-8400
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-04-2017 13:03
    I naturally want an instrument to have dignity, but really, we are serving the dignity of the owner when we treat any instrument with respect.

    Another reason to clean and look after details on a very good upright, wherever one finds it (institutional as well as private ownership by musicians or non-musicians) is that there are fewer of these magnificently built uprights every year, and getting it clean and in good working order makes it less likely to be trashed. People discarding pianos usually don't know the good ones from the junk. I've found that just getting the keys clean can improve the attitudes of the people playing a piano.

    Besides, one feels better.

    As for the price of a piano these days, yes, it is very, very depressing. I consider the low prices to be under the real value to the right owner, if one can be found. As long as children taking lessons are practicing on digital keyboards, no decently working piano should be thrown away.

    I paid off my mortgage in 2005, and then watched the real estate markets go crazy in 2008, as a bubble burst. I realized that this did not matter, because once paid for, my house became worth exactly one house no matter what someone else would pay for it. So, when dealing with the question of how much money to put into repairs of a piano which would be hard to sell (and which ones aren't, these days?) one should consider the use. If someone wanted to do expensive repairs in order to make the piano easier to sell, I'd advise them strongly against it. If moderate but not extremely expensive work is being done so that a piano gives better service to someone actually using it, and the person is aware that the market value of the instrument would not increase by the full cost of the repairs, sure, go ahead. And if people who have plenty of money want to sink a bunch of it into a piano for purely sentimental reasons, and understand the state of the piano market, it's purely up to them.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Tuning Shenanigans

    Posted 09-06-2017 01:47
    I am entering this discussion late I know, I did read through all of the answers but didn't see the suggestion I am going to add.
    You don't mention the age of the Hamilton but that makes me think it is older. In the early "70's Baldwin made pianos without the "crease" or "stitch" in the damper block. There was no "recall" just replacement under warranty if there was a complaint. I have run across many of these since that were never replaced, the blocks developed high spots, sometimes on the "nodes" giving you a strange sound/beat! Might be the problem?
    Michael Magness

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    Michael Magness
    West Salem WI
    608-786-4404
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