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False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

  • 1.  False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Posted 05-04-2017 14:30
    My wife is a piano teacher.  My wife has some very important events coming up.  I am a fledgling piano technician learning the craft now for about 4 years.  She has a Steinway Model L and this year I was going to prep it as perfectly as I could for these up coming events.  In the past I have struggled with the tuning of a number of notes in the upper register (CAPO section) due to false beats.  Remembering the article in the Piano Technicians Journal (June 2016, False Beats: Part 3 by Ron Nossaman) I set about attempting the fix her piano using the remedy he championed:  "The real cure is to address the cause and to immobilize the flag-poling of the pin with a couple of drops of thin cyanoacrylate, CA, or Super Glue. ..... I've been asked if this doesn't dull the tone.  I don't think so.  My experience is that it does sound different, but that's because the disordant stuff has been removed and it is cleaner sounding."

    Maybe I did something wrong, but what happened to me is that the CA glue went under the string and bonded between the speaking length of the string and the bridge.  This not only made the tone really dull but, of what you could hear, the pitch had been raised because it also effectively shortened the string.  Because I got carried away before I figured out this was happening I applied the glue to over an octave of strings (all 3 of them per note) in the top octave of the piano.  Now mama ain't happy and I'm not happy either because I'll have to spend a significant amount of time loosening the strings, lifting them up so I can soak the CA glue with acetone and scraping the residue off with a plastic scraper I'll have to make just for this job.

    I'm curious.  I know others have been following procedure.  Any thoughts on what I could have done differently?  The claim is that you should be able to do this without removing the strings, but I think that's what I will do in the future if I decide it is needed.

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    Neil Vanderschaaf
    Round Rock TX
    512-577-1840
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  • 2.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Posted 05-04-2017 14:34
    Any thoughts on a better way to clean up the mess would be greatly appreciated as well.

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    Neil Vanderschaaf
    Round Rock TX
    512-577-1840
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  • 3.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Posted 05-04-2017 17:00
    I don't think you need to scrape off/dissolve the CA .  I'd just try loosening the strings and bringing them up to pitch a couple of times...one swift move down 1/4 turn and a swift move up, just shy of the old position...repeated. Once you break the bond, I think things will improve.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Posted 05-04-2017 18:18
    I've noticed this some time ago and have found a remedy. I asked my dentist for any old picks and scrapers he no longer used. The best tool is a small triangular scraper the hygienist uses to scrape teeth. It fits perfectly into the area and removes the glue.  I also scrape along the speaking length for about an inch, the glue migrates. I inserted the narrow handle of the scraper into a length of player tubing for better grip.

    A magnifying glass helps to inspect that all is clean. I just did a Bechstein last week in my shop, talk about false beats; all's quiet now.

    I also removed the backing from an Exacto Razor Saw and break the bead at the margin. The saw is inserted from a note or two lower. All this is done with the strings at tension, it doesn't even put the note out of tune. It takes a while but well worth it.

    I find this necessary even though I'm careful about the amount of CA applied. I use an old style drafting pen to deliver a measured portion to the base of the pin.

    Removing the strings is even more work than this method.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-04-2017 19:00
    I've only tried this once, very very sparingly. I don't think it had much effect. It bothered me that it showed up on the bridge. Can we see some pictures?

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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2017 03:20
    Instead of the CA glue you could just take a small punch and tap the bridge pin down a little.

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    Robert Callaghan
    Reno NV
    775-287-2140
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  • 7.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2017 07:16
    I just did this on a Baldwin L I just restrung, and it worked very well. Fortunately the bridge pins were actually a little too high for my taste, so it looks better now too. :>)

    ------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Director of Piano Services
    School of Music
    813 Assembly St
    University of South Carolina
    Columbia, SC 29208
    pwilliams@mozart.sc.edu
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Posted 05-05-2017 07:26
    Tapping bridge pins would be just a temporary fix at best. The problem is small voids in the bridge itself, around the pin. CA fills the voids, which clears up the tone.

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    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
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  • 9.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2017 07:34
    well, if they come back, I'll go the next step.  Great experiment to see what happens.

    ------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Director of Piano Services
    School of Music
    813 Assembly St
    University of South Carolina
    Columbia, SC 29208
    pwilliams@mozart.sc.edu
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-21-2017 16:22
    Here's my picture. Are the glue stains objectionable? They look kind of like shadows.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-11-2017 23:03
    The issue of dulling the sound of strings with a CA application is worth
    talking about. Yes, you can over-apply and end up with a bead of CA
    between the string and the notch. Do your best to avoid doing that.

    When you get to the point where wood saturation has occurred, take a
    paper towel and immediately jam it as best you can between the string
    and the notch to soak up any excess glue that is not immediately wicked
    into the bridge cap. Since I have adopted that protocol, I have not had
    any issues with a substantial change in tone.

    JP




  • 12.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2017 03:06
    I would suggest something I tried on a Baldwin SD-10 with poor rendering. Let one side down quite a bit -- perfect fifth, for instance. Then let the other side of the string down less. Then pull up the second side first. You'll pull a little bit of wire around the hitch pin, and therefore you'll change all the places flattened and bent by contact with the bridge pins and the bearings. Essentially, you'll freshen the wire at the contact points.

    Try it on one of the worst (most dead) notes and if it works, then do the others.

    I don't think you need to scrape off or dissolve the CA glue. Some might scrape off by itself when you move the wire.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 13.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Posted 05-05-2017 07:48
    Removing the glue bead does not introduce instability resulting from the wire needing to rebend/straighten around the bearings.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2017 08:19
    Jon,

    What do you mean by "break the bead at the margin"?

    BTW every time I go to the dentist I ask for all his broken, no longer used, tools. They come in very handy!

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Posted 05-05-2017 09:50
    The margin being the point at which the wire, pin and notch meet. The pointed tip of the scraper fits right in there but it's good to 'break' the bead prior to chipping it out. it can take some doing to clear the area. The tip of the scraper can also be drawn along the side of the wire on the bridge surface to remove any glue migrating across the bridge for appearances.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Posted 05-08-2017 10:03
    FYI,
    Dental tools are relatively inexpensive compared to piano tech specialty tools. 

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    I've used the temporary filling materials for restoring chipped ivory and concealing cracks.

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    Haven't used dental instruments for this. But you might get more leverage out of a harware tool. 

    Shop Kobalt 4-Piece Household Tool Set at Lowes.com
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    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
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  • 17.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Posted 05-08-2017 11:02
    Harbor Freight also has picks pretty cheap. I think they're around $4.00

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
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  • 18.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2017 10:33
    That was my first thought also, Jon. You beat me to it.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2017 14:16
    A good solid tuning takes away the instability, leaving the benefit from moving the flattened wire away from all the bearing points.

    Certainly one would not want to try this technique the day of a concert, but it has worked well for me. Much more clarity of sound, better rendering (which had been horrible), even the capo jingly noises improved.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 20.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Posted 05-05-2017 10:20
    Susan,

    Did this re-positioning improve your rendering?   Did it last?

    I really wonder about the shape of the wire at these termination points, whether it is because there is a significant bend at the points which will not yield, whether it is worse with hardened terminations.

    I was talking to Bradley Snook a year ago, as he was experimenting with dropping the pitch aggressively, ie a full octave and returning close to target repeatedly to clean up the sound of the string. He thought it had to do with back scale, but as I watched what he was doing I thought that he was work hardening the actual contact point of the string at the termination. That is, work hardening the side of the string that you cannot get to with massaging tools...the actual termination to string contact point...or maybe self-machining a perfectly fit termination. Not sure what's going on, but as a rendering improvement for strings that will not move, its interesting.   


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2017 12:09
    Jim,

    Does it actually work?

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Posted 05-05-2017 12:29
    Not sure. I was too chicken to beat up on the block that way. I did try it, but the tentative way I was doing it reset the back scale, and  I had trouble stabilizing the pitch without several passes. However, I have been thinking of doing it with a new block, which is always too tight to start any way.
    Re Susan's use of for fixing a rendering problem, I again was too tentative in my experiments. But I have a client with a 90's B which I absolutely dread to tune. Nothing, including hosing it down with protech has worked. I'll present it as a  "several pass" service call, and see.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2017 14:30
    Jude did a complete remanufacture an early 80's S&S B for a client of mine last year. The V bar was just so fat and wide it was ridiculous. One wouldn't need to go "the full McMorrow" on something so bad, but Jude did. Probably the same situation with yours client's piano.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2017 14:47
    I'm very interested in how that B will respond, Jim.

    True, it takes some solid tuning after letting the string that far down, which of course means multiple passes, but this a one-time procedure, so the extra tuning to restore stability is just part of the deal. The time spent, in my experience, will be given back many times over by better rendering and stability later on.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 25.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2017 14:36
    Hi, Jim

    I wrote a Journal article about this in 2000. I think I called it "Freshening Strings."

    I did several things at the same time. This was an SD-10 (1971, early one) with those termination fittings. It not only rendered horribly, it also tended to develop capo noises which practically sounded like a pocketful of loose change.

    First, I let off all three strings of a unison enough to pull them to the side of their channel.

    Then I took a strip of medium emery cloth and shoe-shined the (fairly) large-radius bearing area. It had had what looked like gold paint on it, but after shining it looked like a mirror surface. Then I pulled the wire out of the very large radius counter-bearing grooves (which I think was the source of most of the worst rendering) and laid a good layer of graphite into them using a 6B pencil.

    Then I pulled everything back up to pitch, spaced, and tuned heavily.

    Yes, the rendering and tonal improvements were permanent. In fact, they were everything I might have wished for. As I did this, repeated heavy concert tunings, and regulation and tail shaping, the piano stopped being an ugly duckling and started to get some social approval.

    First I did this to the first capo. Later, having done it to the second capo but not being happy with the results (which I now think suffered from some layer separations in vertical laminations of the bridge), I restrung it. Looking closely at the old wire, I could see the flattening of bearing points very clearly.

    It was later when I considered that letting the wire so far down had insured that it would not end up at quite the same place as it had started. I later used this technique on an early 20th Century 7 foot Baldwin with very covered tone and original wire. I didn't do all the other things to that piano. I just let down the wire about a perfect fifth and then pulled it back up. The tone improved a great deal. While I was gritting my teeth with a slightly sick grin moving that old wire so far, nothing broke. In fact, I've never broken a string doing this (well, so far.)

    That's interesting, Bradley moving the wire so far up and down so many times. I wouldn't want to do that, but it's an interesting idea. It does seem to beg for the wire to break somewhat sooner than it might otherwise.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 26.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Posted 05-05-2017 14:42
    < It does seem to beg for the wire to break somewhat sooner than it might otherwise.

    Interestingly, when the wire did break, it broke on the downward motion not the pull up.


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: False beats, CA glue and dulling the tone

    Posted 05-15-2017 17:20
    In response to the original post, I would never apply CA glue to the bridge with the string still on the bridge. CA glue 'crawls' and travels, and it would be just too easy to have some of it get onto the strings, hurting the tone and tuning stability.  I would take the strings off the bridge and push them aside.  One thing that has not been mentioned at all in this discussion is correcting the termination point on the bridge.  If  your problem with false beating strings is in the high treble, it could very well be that the end of the bridge where the string first makes contact is no longer a sharp, well-defined edge that is at the center of the bridge pin.  The wood could have warped or changed dimensions over time (more than likely) from the bearing pressure of the strings, and that edge or drop-off point has become more rounded and spread past the center of the pins. This will cause false beats and an impure tone, and no amount of CA glue or tapping down on the bridge pins will fix it.  The pins must be removed, then with a very sharp 3/8-1/2" chisel, such as a Buck Bros. chisel, slowly remove the wood from the bridge where the strings rest beside the bridge pins, until that edge is once again well defined and is at the exact center of the pins.  Then inject a little CA glue into the holes and  quickly reinstall the bridge pins, then put the strings back on and tune.  You must be very careful with the chisel, and where exactly you start cutting, or you will take it back too far and make the problem worse.  But if you do this correctly, you'll be glad you took a little extra time with it.  I have done this successfully on good quality old upright pianos, and they often sound better in the high treble, with the original strings from the 1920's than many high-end grands or uprights that are new or have been restrung, where this was not done.

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    Alex Doss

    Complete Piano Service
    Central FL.
    352-279-3464
    naturecoastpianotech@gmail.com
    ------------------------------