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Test Master Tunings and ETD's

  • 1.  Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2017 07:00
    Does anyone have any data or anecdotal information on how the master tunings used for testing exams compare to standard ETD calculated tunings on the same piano?

    ------------------------------
    Eric Johnson [RPT]
    [Eric Johnson Pianos]
    [Westport] [CT]

    203-520-9064
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2017 07:58
    To my knowledge, every master tuning I have participated in at the national conventions, have first been first tuned using an ETD and then 'tweaked' based on the observations of the one who tuned the piano. Later, the tuning was subject to aural verification by those responsible for the master tuning and adjusted as necessary. 

    There is a piano used in our area for examinations where an ETD was not used to establish a base line tuning. 


    ------------------------------
    Rick Butler
    Bowie MD
    240 396 7480
    RickRickRickRickRick
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2017 09:32
    Eric,

    I believe Bill Bremmer could elaborate on that point, though I'm not sure he'd want to type it all out again since a similar discussion was had on another PT forum (I guess I'm not supposed to name it?  IDK). 

    The basic idea as I see it is that the ETD  is simply used to "save" time with an initial tuning. All else is done aurally. 

    It's been a long time since i was in on a master tuning. Back then, the ETD was ONLY used to record the aural master tuning. That ship has evidently sailed. As much as I prefer the all aural, it just isn't practical anymore.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2017 11:55
    Eric,

    I took the tuning exam in Reno in 2001.  I observed the master tuning the day before i took the exam.  The piano (Kawai RX3?) had been "rough tuned" by Jim Coleman Sr., then refined aurally by a team led by Jack Stebbens.  I used RCT for the exam, scored that part of the exam in the high 90's, and the only points off were in the low bass where I deviated from what RCT was telling me.

    ------------------------------
    Michael Spalding RPT
    Fredonia WI
    262-692-3943
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  • 5.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Posted 09-06-2017 13:52
    I sat in as an observer for one of the master tunings in Reno. Jack and two other RPTs were evaluating  the master tuning. Jack's opinion was golden - if questions arose, Jack's opinion was held steadfast.

    ------------------------------
    Garret Traylor
    Trinity NC
    336-887-4266
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2017 18:48
    Dean Reyburn has a tuning style called "RPT Tuning Exam." He based it on data he had collected on a large number of master tunings, and early on he stated that all master tunings would score his emulation at 100% or very near. He stopped making that claim due to some pushback, I believe, but I also believe that his claim was true. 

    This was based on master tunings done entirely aurally. The use of an ETD to set up the initial tuning for exams was frowned on among CTEs, though some would use a stored master tuning to do an initial tuning on a piano of the same model. In my own limited experience as a CTE, scoring exams taken by people using an ETD (in the days when the whole piano was tuned first, and then the ETD assisted examinee had to do an additional aural midrange), I found that they tended to score at least 95% and above, unless they had lousy hammer technique. The first one I faced had all 100s except two 98s.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2017 22:51
    This is an interesting question and thank you, Peter Grey for inviting me to respond.  The only real requirement for initiating a Master Tuning is that it be done on a piano already tuned to A-440 in Equal Temperament.  Already, we can see where there is some real slop in that.  The A4 must be within +/- 1.9 cents of 0.0 as read on the A4 fundamental. Already, there is an electronic tuning specification. Since many tunings tend to drift a bit along the way, few exam committees would want to start with the A4 being at or near the limit.  What would be the very best way to take care of that?

    The problem with drift is one that I never see really addressed.  In the "good old days", the master tuning  was done entirely by ear, yes.  The entire piano was tuned from end to end and then each pitch was measured and stored.  If, in the end, the A4 was beyond +/- 1.9 cents, the entire project would have to be started over.  I will address the problem of drift later in my comments.

    Many of these master tunings were done at annual conventions.  It would be a new piano from the factory and delivered to a hotel room after going through sweltering heat and then into an air conditioned room.  The initial state of the piano could be almost anything and to try to gain control of it was a very difficult problem.  One solution to the problem was to turn on the AC to the coldest setting so that it would run constantly, not cycle on and off.  There were exams in Las Vegas where it was 120 degrees outside but the exam room was a chilly 65 degrees and people had to put on jackets or sweaters to be comfortable.  There were exams in Kansas City where it was a sweltering and very humid 95 degrees outside and the piano had been on a truck and delivered from such conditions to a cool and stable room.

    In St. Louis, I observed that Atsundo Aikawa, the Chairman of the ETSC Tuning Exam Sub-Committee, had supplied thermal blankets to pianos to prevent them from being exposed to air conditioning on and off cycling effects.  The rooms were not so chilly.

    Please consider once again that these were brand new pianos.  Nice in one respect but in others, not so nice at all.  Perhaps very tight, squeaky or jumpy tuning pins.  No long series of constant attention that would stabilize their pitch.  Totally "green", so to speak.

    Since the rules did not stipulate that the initial tuning had to be done aurally, many examiners in charge of the piano began to use ETD's to perform initial tunings, to try to get the piano on pitch and within a reasonable range throughout.  It would take at least 2 or 3 of those before the master tuning session would begin.  Whatever there was on Tuesday afternoon of convention week was the result of whatever effort had been made to stabilize the pitch beforehand.  No one ever expected any ETD generated tuning to not need any correction and that has never happened.

    It is not that even if an ETD generated tuning from an hour before the master tuning session was "bad", it may well have scored perfectly or nearly so within the tolerances of the exam.  It is the fact that the master tuning itself is a super-human model of perfection that otherwise would be unattainable through any means or method.  The exam candidate only has to come within the allowed tolerances of that to score perfect 100's which nobody ever has (although some people have come close).

    It is also a matter that the master tuning is, after all, an entirely aural tuning effort and its results can differ from the perfect model that an ETD program may project.  The difference, for example between a photographic image and that of a highly skilled artist.  The photographic image may, in fact be more true to form but the artist rendering may be more appealing to the eye.

    In any case, electronically calculated programs tend to draw a smooth curve through what otherwise should be a jagged and irregular line.  The electronic program does not know where the piano changes wire gauges, for example.  There may be four unisons of a certain gauge of wire that each exhibit their own inharmonicity curve but when the wire gauge changes, there is an abrupt and new set of circumstances.

    The electronic program can blur all of that together so that nothing sounds very "off" but when an exam committee scrutinizes it, very fine distinctions can be found.  It takes longer and is very difficult to make extremely small changes to what is already there.  The closer to absolute perfection one gets, the more time consuming and difficult it becomes to try to achieve absolute perfection.

    For this reason, it is not uncommon for an exam committee to still spend 4 hours correcting an electronically generated preliminary tuning.  Some of the drift in pitch because of conditions in the room and the newness of the piano may also be factors.

    As for drift, I learned from Doug Atkins that it would be a good idea to check and correct if necessary, any drift in pitch that may occur along the way.  Therefore, rather than waiting until the entire piano had been tuned, I personally record the temperament octave, then the midrange after they have been completed.  I deliver firm test blows to each string.  If any have changed, I restore them to what has been recorded but then, I am required to re-asses any electronic tuning with aural verification.  I record each octave after it has been tuned the same way.  It all takes time.

    In other words, I like to treat the master tuning in itself as a work in progress.  It is preliminary until each and every pitch has been agreed upon in the very end.  I do not like at all the idea that some parts may have drifted before all pitches are recorded.  Whatever drift there may be could easily exceed the tolerances of the exam.  In my view, it is better to firmly establish each section of the piano, each octave as it goes, check and restore it if necessary on the fly so that the end result is really what it was meant to be.

    Unfortunately to the purists, this does involve electronic tuning.  It involves tuning pitches to exacting amounts that have already been established aurally in the exam program.  If anything has been restored by electronic tuning, it is required for it to again be verified aurally.  This, by the way, sometimes does turn up some discrepancies which can serve to further improve the master tuning.

    That being said, I have heard of some astonishingly short master tuning sessions that followed a preliminary tuning by a master tuner such as Jim Coleman, Sr.  I have also heard of some short sessions when the program for the same make and model master tuning was used to generate the preliminary tuning for a new master tuning.  However, I must say this about the last sentence.  The master tuning I attended in St. Louis had for its preliminary tuning, the master tuning program performed on it for the preliminary tuning, the very same piano, not just the same make and model and it still took more than four hours to correct it.

    The moral of the story is that if there is a master tuning session to be done in a chapter or area exam board piano that is an established piano in a stable environment, it may well work to initiate the project with a preliminary tuning done entirely aurally.  The preliminary tuning is done by the examiner in charge and the master tuning is done mostly by the other two examiners scrutinizing the preliminary tuning.  That is what I believe to be the original idea and that is all well and good.

    The goal is to have the most perfected model tuning possible.  If rules were imposed that each and every master tuning be done from scratch aurally only,  I believe that master tunings done under convention circumstances would suffer as a consequence.  There is simply no question about the ability of electronic tuning to be able to afford some exacting pitch under such circumstances.  It is still and always has been the requirement, that master tunings be finalized entirely aurally.

    ------------------------------
    William Bremmer
    RPT
    Madison WI
    608-238-8400
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-07-2017 00:41
    Bill, your description of the kind of piano and the circumstances of the exam at conventions reminded me of my experience.

    A 6 foot Young Chang was delivered to a hotel room just before my exam. Not long afterwards, the exam started. I assume that the tuning was checked, but not for long.

    The room was cool when the piano arrived, then it got warmer as the afternoon sun beat on the curtained window. I was asked if I wanted them to turn the air conditioner on, but I was afraid of changing the tuning. I later thought that was the wrong decision, as by the time the exam finished the room was over 80 degrees.

    And the room was across the hall from an indoor swimming pool.

    The whole process was a real strain on me, but I could see it also was very hard and stressful on the guys administering it. I could see that they wanted to be totally fair, and diplomatic, and supportive, but the conditions we all worked under made their task extremely difficult.

    In retrospect, I've been grateful that I only had to go through this once.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-07-2017 23:36
    Bill Bremmer's response provides a very idealistic picture of the way master tunings are set up (though he points out many of the obstacles especially at conventions, with new pianos and climate issues). Certainly there is an aspiration toward absolute perfection, but serious questions can be raised as to how closely master tunings approach this elusive goal - if the goal actually exists, or can be defined in a meaningful way.

    One very interesting aspect of this has to do with the criteria we use for evaluating our goal. It seems to be understood commonly that what we aim for is "precise equal temperament, expanded throughout the piano." This is generally interpreted as meaning that, in particular, 5th partial intervals (M3, M10, M17, M6, to a lesser extent m3 and m6) will progress evenly in beat rate throughout the compass of the piano. To a certain extent, beat rates involving higher partials are also involved (e.g., 7th partial, as in the double octave minor 7th interval, often used in the base). 

    At the same time, we expect intervals like 5ths, 4ths, octaves, 12ths, double octaves to behave consistently. As it turns out, these two demands conflict, as we pass through various inharmonicity jumps, even on our well-scaled testing pianos. At every move from plain wire to wrapped, from bichord to monochord, there will be a jog in beat rate of the 5th partial intervals - if we choose to make the 5ths, octaves, 12ths, etc consistent. Or, if we choose to make the 5th partial beat rates consistent, the 5hts, octaves, 12ths will be inconsistent.

    Interestingly, there seems to be no consensus as to how this contradiction should be handled. It is brushed under the table in the name of "making aural decisions" (artistic decisions, if you like, but essentially pretending the problem doesn't exist).

    Well, that is just one interesting aspect, the conflict of theory versus reality. Another aspect is personnel. The standard requires that a master tuning be accomplished by one CTE assisted by at least two RPTs. It is not specified that those two RPTs should have even passed the exam aurally. Hence, there may be considerable discrepancy in aural skill levels. Certainly most CTEs will try to recruit RPTs with decent and verified aural chops, but that isn't always possible. One of the interesting contradictions in the system.

    That contradiction has been present since the beginning, as one could certainly argue that the grandfathered RPTs had a variety of skill levels. in thinking back to early master tunings I participated in in the early 80s, I clearly remember that none of us knew what the heck we were doing. Each of us had opinions, but we really had no idea how to take an existing tuning and improve it. Each had a procedure (a tuning sequence), and the basic, intuitive approach, was for each to sit down and start his or her own temperament sequence from the first note. A lot of running around chasing tails.

    Over the decades since, CTEs have managed to develop some efficient procedures (for instance, no note is changed until everybody agrees - and it is read first so that it can be returned if the change wasn't an improvement). Still, I am not sure we have good procedures for establishing a good "aural emulation of equal temperament principles on a real life piano" in a consistent way. If the initial temperament has "small bulges," they will probably still be there when the tuning has been refined, or maybe they will have been pushed in a slightly different direction. I don't buy Bill Bremmer's argument that the jogs in the read numbers of these tunings have anything to do with changes of wire gauge (other than when the octave read changes). 

    And, as Bill points out, there is the enormous question of "drift." Sometimes it is climate and new piano related, but I think more often it is hammer technique related. When trying to make tiny changes in beat rates, our stability tends to suffer, particularly if we are making those changes aurally. So with the best intentions in the world, and refined hearing and judgment, tunings are created that have changed by the time they are finished and are read. Nobody has the energy to go back over the whole tuning and aurally verify that everything is, in fact, in the "near perfect" condition it seemed to be at the time those minute changes were made (or attempted). 

    Bottom line, I retain a healthy skepticism toward the perfection of the master tuning. The system works, after a fashion, but largely because of the generous parameters (especially in the outer regions), plus the aural verification component. According to my own extensive experience, an electronically generated tuning template would provide far more reliable standard. Not a popular opinion in many quarters, I'm sure, but one that has been reached after many years of experience and experimentation.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-08-2017 20:29
    Fred,

    You make some very good points, but I would like to address just one thing, and that is the aural verification aspect of the exam. This is probably the most important aspect in the whole process IMO.

    As I see it, it really doesn't matter in the end if the master tuning is in fact not quite perfect. The reason is, when a note is flagged as being in error, yes it is relative to the master tuning. However, the applicant is asked to aurally determine the "error", but it is now relative to the APPLICANT'S tuning, not the master tuning. The master tuning is used simply to identify a possible "out of tolerance" note, but the applicant could very well have fit that note (and others) in well enough that it can actually get "thrown out" because aural verification shows that it is in the best place for THAT tuning (the APPLICANT'S tuning not the master). The examiners can hear it and the applicant can hear it. If they all agree that it can't be improved by moving it, the note in question gets thrown out. 

    I believe it is this process that makes the exam so fair. Doc Sanderson realized this and he always seemed to enjoy "throwing out" a note through this process. So, even if there were anomalies in the master tuning, in the final analysis it doesn't matter because the scoring is all relative to the tuning applied by the applicant.

    If I am out in left field and seeing this incorrectly please let me know. 

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-09-2017 23:09
    The aural verification is certainly what makes the test work, in its current form. I am simply arguing against the romanticization of master tunings. They are done by flesh and blood people, and all have warts.

    Some of the more or less theoretical things I wrote earlier have to do with the fact that we don't actually have a well defined agreement as to the criteria for a master tuning. Put another way, the criteria are a bit fuzzy and contradictory - they seem to be based on theoretical equal temperament assuming even inharmonicity, and "aural judgment" is to be used to resolve problems. IOW, individual opinion, without actual principles to guide it. Put human variability on top of that, plus normal human and instrument error, and the picture becomes pretty fuzzy, indeed. It would be an excellent idea to take the entire database of master tunings and analyze them by piano model, to see what we could find out. Scary stuff, though. It might raise questions we want to avoid.

    As for Eric's question about standards, I am happy to stick my neck out and say that the tuning templates generated by all the professional ETDs are certainly worthy of being considered standard. There is a wide tolerance of variability, and I think the ETDs cover that range pretty well. (I wish people would stop writing in such a way that they imply that ETDs tune pianos. They do not. They create templates. Humans do the tuning, and it is fussy, precise, skilled work, whether using a template or comparing beat rates and the like.)

    I find it interesting that at this point much of the argument in favor of aural versus ETD assisted tuning tends to skew towards the notion that a degree of inaccuracy is aesthetically more pleasing than accuracy. That argument is, of course, absolutely contrary to the thrust of PTG and its predecessors over the years (beginning with Braid White and the American Guild of Piano Tuners), to try to bring tuning up to the highest possible level of scientific accuracy and precision. The pursuit of the highest degree of accuracy and precision was pretty universal when I entered the field over 35 years ago. One could say that the argument today is that tunings should be somewhat sloppily done. Well, "consciously sloppily done," as in trying to achieve just the right level of imprecision to give the right sound, I suppose. Still, it is ironic.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2017 07:41
    Fred wrote:
    "I wish people would stop writing in such a way that they imply that ETDs tune pianos. They do not. They create templates. Humans do the tuning, and it is fussy, precise, skilled work, whether using a template or comparing beat rates and the like."

    Of course, this is true not only where the pitch template is concerned, but for manipulating the tunings pins and strings as well. Noting my ETD, a new client once smiled and commented, "So, the machine is going to tune my piano." I smiled back as I folded my arms , stared at the gizmo and waited a few seconds before declaring, "Apparently not!!"

    Alan


    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Posted 09-10-2017 13:27

    Of course, this is true not only where the pitch template is concerned, but for manipulating the tunings pins and strings as well. Noting my ETD, a new client once smiled and commented, "So, the machine is going to tune my piano." I smiled back as I folded my arms , stared at the gizmo and waited a few seconds before declaring, "Apparently not!!"
    Alan Eder,  09-10-2017 07:41
    HA! I love it! I must remember that. Every once in a while I'll comment to a customer, who isn't necessarily against electronic tuning, but just commenting or interested in my device, that I'm just lucky a robot isn't tuning their piano. ;-)

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2017 13:47

    In regards to....

    ........master tunings used for testing exams compare to standard ETD calculated tunings on the same piano?

     

    At one time I had the owners of the four major ETD each tune a master tuned piano as if they were an examine. I ask them to tune C1 through B87center string only without doing any modifications from a stock tuning program. I then score the exam. All scored 95% or better.






  • 15.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2017 18:25
    Keith,
    Too bad you didn't verify the errors. That might have been revealing.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2017 11:41
    Hi, Fred, I've interspersed my comments into your comments. See below.







  • 17.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2017 18:18
    Richard,
    Not sure what you did, and how you did it, but it is invisible to me.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2017 19:56
    Sorry, Fred. This message was also invisible to me as well. I sent a second message that seemed to work okay. At least it was visible as I intended. The faulty message was sent yesterday at 11:41. The readable email was sent at 11:50 yesterday.

    Did you get the second readable version?

    Richard








  • 19.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-08-2017 22:06

    Interestingly, there seems to be no consensus as to how this contradiction should be handled. It is brushed under the table in the name of "making aural decisions" (artistic decisions, if you like, but essentially pretending the problem doesn't exist)
    Fred Sturm,  09-07-2017 23:36

        Fred: I know it exists and my strategy to handle this contradiction is to keep in mind that 4 contiguous M6ths make up a triple octave and 3 contiguous M10ths make a quadruple. I check these relationships from middle out as well as the bottom up and adjust accordingly best I can.           How do you brush? This pattern seems useful for " making artistic aural decisions" about the bigger picture. It is one pattern, no more or LESS important than any other interval relationship but seems underrepresented so I mention it once again.




  • 20.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-09-2017 18:13
    My purpose for posing the question has to do with industry standards.

    In many (most?) industries, standards exist. If you're an electrician you can't base your rewiring on your feeling that electricity flows better in a particular way. If you're a doctor you cannot prescribe propofol for the common cold even though your patients sleep better.

    In our industry the stakes are of course lower, but  general consumer is at our mercy because so few people know what a properly tuned piano should sound like. Yes, of course there are exceptions, but in general the average piano buyer or owner has little understanding of what a correct tuning should be. 

    More to the point, I have seen tuning demonstrations by respected professionals where the tunings were modified to the extreme and, to me and some others, past the point of acceptability (primarily the stretch in the treble) with the simple justification being "I think it sounds better". 

    So, to cut to the chase, is it reasonable to say that a tuning calculated by a modern ETD for a particular piano represents a Generally Accepted Tuning Practice, similar to GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principle). In other words, a reasonable, workable and attainable standard representing current professional understanding of what a "correct" tuning should be?

    NOTICE that I am NOT saying "best" or "perfect" or "better than" and I'm taking the execution out of it.  I asked about the Master Tuning because, while it seems the best combination of aural and ETD use, it is impractical as an overall industry standard ...AND...it seems like there is not too much difference between the two.

    ------------------------------
    Eric Johnson [RPT]
    [Eric Johnson Pianos]
    [Westport] [CT]

    203-520-9064
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Posted 09-10-2017 13:45
    "In our industry the stakes are of course lower, but  general consumer is at our mercy because so few people know what a properly tuned piano should sound like. Yes, of course there are exceptions, but in general the average piano buyer or owner has little understanding of what a correct tuning should be.

    So, to cut to the chase, is it reasonable to say that a tuning calculated by a modern ETD for a particular piano represents a Generally Accepted Tuning Practice, similar to GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principle). In other words, a reasonable, workable and attainable standard representing current professional understanding of what a "correct" tuning should be?

    NOTICE that I am NOT saying "best" or "perfect" or "better than" and I'm taking the execution out of it."  E. Johnson

    For my part, as an ETA tuner, that's all I'm looking for. Just an acknowledgment that, all things being equal, as in the execution of the tuning, that using an ETA is an acceptable standard. As you said, I'm also not saying it's the "best" or "perfect" or "better than", but at least acceptable. That acknowledgement does seem to be coming at this point in time and I'm grateful for that. 


    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Posted 09-14-2017 02:53
    Most highly-esteemed colleagues and least lowly-esteemed colleagues,

    I turn you to a somewhat elusive source on this website provided by the PTG as a guide for passing the PTG tuning test:

    Tuning Exam Source Book
    Ptg remove preview
    Tuning Exam Source Book
    This guide includes suggested resource materials for those preparing for the exams. Contains exam-related articles from the Piano Technicians Journal plus the most current tuning exam procedures in a loose-leaf 3 ring binder.
    View this on Ptg >

    The test properly administered by a CTE is not an arbitrary electronic or aural master tuning. There are standards, and by following these as outlined in the source, however much what I appropriate that as the best way of tuning, I secured CTE level scores first try on the tuning test, aurally, not so much meant to indicate the best way of tuning, but the ability to discern a basic system for checking intervals and unisons, in a manner that is diligent and percise, w/ celerity. It may not be yours. 

    Neither machines nor, again, arbitrary aural determinations, to my knowledge, though never a CTE, have usurped what can be plainly understood for someone tuning aurally, sampling, or programming a machine to tune, contrary to this manual in the recent past, in any test administered by the PTG.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Test Master Tunings and ETD's

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-13-2017 09:47
    Al Sanderson never intended the master tuning to be representative of THE BEST tuning that can be put on THAT PIANO.

    What he intended was the best VERIFIABLE and provable (if you will) tuning...one that conforms as closely as possible to the accepted standards of ET throughout the piano (contracted 5ths, expanded 4ths, smoothly ascending 3rds and 6ths) without bending (or especially breaking) any of these rules in favor of personal opinion. Also, specific instruction is given to the applicant (exactly the same instructions adhered to by the examiners in the master tuning) as to octave width etc. 

    If the instructions are followed (which is part of the test...can the applicant follow simple instructions?) the result will be very close to the master tuning. It is not a test to make the piano sound as good as it possibly can. It is a test to find out if you have the skills to do what you are ASKED to do and make it stay there.

    I have often felt the term "master" tuning gives the wrong impression and should be renamed to something more benign and technical. 

    Pwg


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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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