Hi, Paul,
On 2/11/2016 10:22 PM, Paul McCloud via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login. Hi, Horace: You
> sure know your history! I'm going to assume you're talking about the
> mechanism of the Knabe being identical with the Mason. If it was a
> retrofit, it sure looked like one.
I'm not sure that they were actual "identical" in the strict sense of
the word (especially as M&H wasn't part of what became Aeolian-American
until after 1928). That said, my memory is that they were very, very
similar, at least. Yes...retrofit, I think; but, reasonably well done,
for the period, and what they were trying to do.
> It seemed kind of funky and not of similar quality to the rest of the
> piano.
Yup.
> There were long springs to hold it in place, sort of, and the rubber
> blade didn't seem to be very stable. Trying to bend those stickers
> while in the piano seemed impossible without some kind of bending
> tool; much like bending spoons in a spinet, it was almost impossible.
> And trying to regulate them on the bench was almost futile, since the
> dampers need to be on the strings to provide the exact location of the
> tip of the stickers. That's as I remember from about 10 years ago.
Yes; my memory, as well. Not any particular fun.
> Amazing what you learn over the years after much head scratching and
> hair pulling. Working on some pianos is sort of like going out on an
> archaeological dig. You never know what you're going to find buried
> beneath the rubble. Then, somebody says, "Dig here!", and you find
> something you never knew existed, or why.
Yup...with pianos from that period, there simply is no one-size-fits-all
answer...for anything. The reason is actually very simple: There was
so much that was actually done by hand that, no matter how beautifully
things looked when finished/operational, there were countless
discrepancies in endless measurements which meant that each instrument
was, in fact, unique. Losing that perspective means that whatever work
we do now simply misses the point. (Modern manufacturing processes,
reasonably applied, have, of course, very much changed this picture.)
> I'm not familiar with the two books you mentioned, sorry.
No worries. They're very valuable resources. Some overlapping
information; but different enough to warrant having both, I think.
They're available here:
Kehl, Roy: The Official Guide to Steinway Pianos ISBN: 9781574671988
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=18151256886&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26an%3DRoy%2520KehlRatcliffe, Ronald: Steinway ISBN: 9780877015925
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=15622160538&searchurl=bi%3D0%26ds%3D30%26sts%3Dt%26bx%3Doff%26sortby%3D17%26an%3DRonald%2520Ratcliffe%26recentlyadded%3DallFWIW, I get many books from
www.abebooks.com (The "abe" stands for
"Amazon Book Exchange".) The reason is that while Amazon, itself, can
often provide fairly quick and cost-effective response, the dark side of
that is that Amazon is all about the client/purchaser. So, the vendor
comes out on the short end of whatever problem may come up. ABEbooks,
on the other hand, is (essentially) made up of nearly 15,000
"independent" (or sort of so) vendors from around the globe.
Importantly, the vendor policies work to make a more level playing field
between vendor and purchaser, so, one winds up with a much wider range
of potential purchasing situations (for certain kinds of books and
publications). Obviously, YMMV; but, give abebooks a try.
Best.
Horace
Thanks for your information. Paul Hi, Paul, It's been quite a while
since I worked on one of these. They are similar to what I think was a
factory retrofit on some (Baltimore)... -posted to the "CAUT" community
Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login. CAUT Post New
Message Re: Sostento "rod" on 1893 Steinway upright Reply to Group Reply
to Sender Horace Greeley Feb 11, 2016 10:59 PM Horace Greeley Hi, Paul,
It's been quite a while since I worked on one of these. They are similar
to what I think was a factory retrofit on some (Baltimore) Knabes of a
slightly earlier vintage...no magic bullets, at least none I ever found.
That said, if you have access to either Roy Kehl's book, or, the earlier
one by Ron Ratcliffe, you might be able to get some information from
there patent listing (reasonably up to date at their respective dates of
publication). From there, you can get descriptions and drawings (in PDF
format) from either: Google Patents:
Http://patents.google.com or, The
U.S.Patent Office:
www.uspto.gov From there, you can probably suss out
what "might have been" the original intent. It's very important to
remember that, even at this fairly late date, many piano companies, in
addition to trying to survive the seldom-spoken-of non-great depreasion
of 1803 - 1895, were literally engineering products on the production
line...rather like the latter-day Thomas organs some may remember. Kind
regards, Horace
Original Message------ Hi, Paul, It's been quite a
while since I worked on one of these. They are similar to what I think
was a factory retrofit on some (Baltimore) Knabes of a slightly earlier
vintage...no magic bullets, at least none I ever found. That said, if
you have access to either Roy Kehl's book, or, the earlier one by Ron
Ratcliffe, you might be able to get some information from there patent
listing (reasonably up to date at their respective dates of
publication). From there, you can get descriptions and drawings (in PDF
format) from either: Google Patents: Http://patents.google.com or, The
U.S.Patent Office: www.uspto.gov From there, you can probably suss out
what "might have been" the original intent. It's very important to
remember that, even at this fairly late date, many piano companies, in
addition to trying to survive the seldom-spoken-of non-great depreasion
of 1803 - 1895, were literally engineering products on the production
line...rather like the latter-day Thomas organs some may remember. Kind
regards, Horace ? Original Message Reply to Sender :
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Original Message------
Hi, Horace:
You sure know your history! I'm going to assume you're talking about the mechanism of the Knabe being identical with the Mason. If it was a retrofit, it sure looked like one. It seemed kind of funky and not of similar quality to the rest of the piano. There were long springs to hold it in place, sort of, and the rubber blade didn't seem to be very stable. Trying to bend those stickers while in the piano seemed impossible without some kind of bending tool; much like bending spoons in a spinet, it was almost impossible. And trying to regulate them on the bench was almost futile, since the dampers need to be on the strings to provide the exact location of the tip of the stickers. That's as I remember from about 10 years ago.
Amazing what you learn over the years after much head scratching and hair pulling. Working on some pianos is sort of like going out on an archaeological dig. You never know what you're going to find buried beneath the rubble. Then, somebody says, "Dig here!", and you find something you never knew existed, or why.
I'm not familiar with the two books you mentioned, sorry.
Thanks for your information.
Paul
Hi, Paul, It's been quite a while since I worked on one of these. They are similar to what I think was a factory retrofit on some (Baltimore)... -posted to the "CAUT" community Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
CAUT
Post New Message Re: Sostento "rod" on 1893 Steinway upright
Reply to Group Reply to Sender
Horace Greeley Feb 11, 2016 10:59 PM
Horace Greeley
Hi, Paul,
It's been quite a while since I worked on one of these. They are similar to what I think was a factory retrofit on some (Baltimore) Knabes of a slightly earlier vintage...no magic bullets, at least none I ever found.
That said, if you have access to either Roy Kehl's book, or, the earlier one by Ron Ratcliffe, you might be able to get some information from there patent listing (reasonably up to date at their respective dates of publication). From there, you can get descriptions and drawings (in PDF format) from either:
Google Patents:
Http://patents.google.com
or,
The U.S.Patent Office:
www.uspto.gov
From there, you can probably suss out what "might have been" the original intent.
It's very important to remember that, even at this fairly late date, many piano companies, in addition to trying to survive the seldom-spoken-of non-great depreasion of 1803 - 1895, were literally engineering products on the production line...rather like the latter-day Thomas organs some may remember.
Kind regards,
Horace