CAUT

On Saturday I listened to From The Top on NPR. Christopher O'Riley was talking with a student who had borrowed an old violin made in Cremona, Italy. It wasn't a Strad or Guaneri, but another maker. It is valued at over $1 million. I've heard about these instruments for years, most of them belonging to famous violinists, or their benefactors. But this got me to thinking. How many of these old Cremona made late 17th early 18th century violins, violas, and cellos are out there?  Is there a list somewhere?

So if any of you have the answer, or could ask one of the string professors at your school, I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

There are hundreds, nearly all altered. Some 600 Strads are said to exist.

Laurence Libin

Sent from my iPad


Original Message------

On Saturday I listened to From The Top on NPR. Christopher O'Riley was talking with a student who had borrowed an old violin made in Cremona, Italy. It wasn't a Strad or Guaneri, but another maker. It is valued at over $1 million. I've heard about these instruments for years, most of them belonging to famous violinists, or their benefactors. But this got me to thinking. How many of these old Cremona made late 17th early 18th century violins, violas, and cellos are out there?  Is there a list somewhere?

So if any of you have the answer, or could ask one of the string professors at your school, I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message------

On Saturday I listened to From The Top on NPR. Christopher O'Riley was talking with a student who had borrowed an old violin made in Cremona, Italy. It wasn't a Strad or Guaneri, but another maker. It is valued at over $1 million. I've heard about these instruments for years, most of them belonging to famous violinists, or their benefactors. But this got me to thinking. How many of these old Cremona made late 17th early 18th century violins, violas, and cellos are out there?  Is there a list somewhere?

So if any of you have the answer, or could ask one of the string professors at your school, I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Hi, Michael, All,

In addition to the marvelous Jalovec volumes, I have a few other sources
for folks who may be interested.

- Millant - J.B. Viullaume (An illustrated catalog of the works of
Vuillaume, himself, as well as some of the "bench copies" made by his
advanced apprentices.)

- Jost Thoene - Italian and French Violin Makers

- Eugene Polanski - The Value of Old Violins.

-Lyon & Healy - Catalog of Old Violins, Violas, Violincellos; also
Bows of Rare Makes. (This one's a real stunner. At one time, L&H could
rightfully make the claim "everything in music.)

- M. Steinert - The M. Steinert Collection of Keyed and Stringed
Instruments. (At one point, probably the most important assemblage of
keyboard instruments in the U.S.. As the business changed, and the
Steinerts eventually sold to other parties, the collection was partly
sold, and partly donated in different directions. I think that a good
portion of it wound up in Vermillion, S.D., at the National Music
Museum...hopefully, someone knows more about this than I do.)

Over the years, I've acquired copies of all the the above. My wife,
Carol, owns and plays a J.B.Vuillaume that is listed in the Millant
book. That has been my inspiration for gathering the others.

Before everyone burns up the Internet looking for copies...which are
readily available for most of what's above...shop and price carefully.
I actively avoid anything "Print on Demand", unless it's either not
available or prohibitively expensive. Working through:

www.bookfinder.com

...decent copies of the above seem to start around $100 USD, and go up
(fairly quickly) to around $400 and up USD...plus applicable taxes and
shipping. (If they're worth having, it's also worth having a decent,
legible copy which might eventually have more than residual intrinsic
value.)

Also, starting at Bookfinder allows the shopper to quickly identify the
country from which the book would be shipped...which can add
significantly to the cost. (While Amazon and ABEbooks provide the same
service, it is not all on one page, as it is with Bookfinder. One
usually has to go to the specific page for each offering to find more
specific tax, shipping, and origin information.)

For piano technicians, to bring this back "on topic" (at least a little
bit), I would urge piano technicians to pick up copies of both the
M.Steinert, and the L&H catalog. These are sufficiently later than
Dolge's volumes that the information is more current to the period
following the non-crash of 1893 - 1895 (which, of course, didn't happen,
either)...which means after the shake out of hundreds (if not thousands)
of piano makers (at least in the U.S.) during that period.

Hope that this is some value to someone...someplace.

Kind regards.

Horace



On 2/5/2017 11:01 PM, Michael Gamble via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
>
> Refer to (Karel) Jalovec. I have two of his large illustrated books: 'Italian Violin Makers' and 'German & Austrian Violin Makers'. Both include authoritative lists of up to two thousand violin and 'Cello makers in the areas covered by each tome. My un-named 'Cello has a Lions Head Scroll Michael UK
>
>
Original Message------
>
> On Saturday I listened to From The Top on NPR. Christopher O'Riley was talking with a student who had borrowed an old violin made in Cremona, Italy. It wasn't a Strad or Guaneri, but another maker. It is valued at over $1 million. I've heard about these instruments for years, most of them belonging to famous violinists, or their benefactors. But this got me to thinking. How many of these old Cremona made late 17th early 18th century violins, violas, and cellos are out there? Is there a list somewhere?
>
> So if any of you have the answer, or could ask one of the string professors at your school, I would appreciate it.
>
> Thanks.
>
> ------------------------------
> Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
> Mililani, HI 96789
> ------------------------------
>
>
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Original Message------

Refer to (Karel) Jalovec. I have two of his large illustrated books: 'Italian Violin Makers' and 'German & Austrian Violin Makers'. Both include authoritative lists of up to two thousand violin and 'Cello makers in the areas covered by each tome. My un-named 'Cello has a Lions Head Scroll     Michael    UK

Original Message------

Hi, Michael, All,

In addition to the marvelous Jalovec volumes, I have a few other sources
for folks who may be interested.

- Millant - J.B. Viullaume (An illustrated catalog of the works of
Vuillaume, himself, as well as some of the "bench copies" made by his
advanced apprentices.)

- Jost Thoene - Italian and French Violin Makers

- Eugene Polanski - The Value of Old Violins.

-Lyon & Healy - Catalog of Old Violins, Violas, Violincellos; also
Bows of Rare Makes. (This one's a real stunner. At one time, L&H could
rightfully make the claim "everything in music.)

- M. Steinert - The M. Steinert Collection of Keyed and Stringed
Instruments. (At one point, probably the most important assemblage of
keyboard instruments in the U.S.. As the business changed, and the
Steinerts eventually sold to other parties, the collection was partly
sold, and partly donated in different directions. I think that a good
portion of it wound up in Vermillion, S.D., at the National Music
Museum...hopefully, someone knows more about this than I do.)

Over the years, I've acquired copies of all the the above. My wife,
Carol, owns and plays a J.B.Vuillaume that is listed in the Millant
book. That has been my inspiration for gathering the others.

Before everyone burns up the Internet looking for copies...which are
readily available for most of what's above...shop and price carefully.
I actively avoid anything "Print on Demand", unless it's either not
available or prohibitively expensive. Working through:

www.bookfinder.com

...decent copies of the above seem to start around $100 USD, and go up
(fairly quickly) to around $400 and up USD...plus applicable taxes and
shipping. (If they're worth having, it's also worth having a decent,
legible copy which might eventually have more than residual intrinsic
value.)

Also, starting at Bookfinder allows the shopper to quickly identify the
country from which the book would be shipped...which can add
significantly to the cost. (While Amazon and ABEbooks provide the same
service, it is not all on one page, as it is with Bookfinder. One
usually has to go to the specific page for each offering to find more
specific tax, shipping, and origin information.)

For piano technicians, to bring this back "on topic" (at least a little
bit), I would urge piano technicians to pick up copies of both the
M.Steinert, and the L&H catalog. These are sufficiently later than
Dolge's volumes that the information is more current to the period
following the non-crash of 1893 - 1895 (which, of course, didn't happen,
either)...which means after the shake out of hundreds (if not thousands)
of piano makers (at least in the U.S.) during that period.

Hope that this is some value to someone...someplace.

Kind regards.

Horace



On 2/5/2017 11:01 PM, Michael Gamble via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
>
> Refer to (Karel) Jalovec. I have two of his large illustrated books: 'Italian Violin Makers' and 'German & Austrian Violin Makers'. Both include authoritative lists of up to two thousand violin and 'Cello makers in the areas covered by each tome. My un-named 'Cello has a Lions Head Scroll Michael UK
>
>

Original Message------

Jalovec is obsolete and unreliable. For more accurate recent work, look up the individual luthiers in the 2014 Grove Dictionary of Musical Instruments and refer to their bibliographies. There is no single comprehensive list of extant old Cremona violins, and much controversy over the authenticity of many old violins bearing labels of Cremona makers.

 

Morris Steinert's collection went mostly to Yale, not to USD.

 

Laurence Libin

Original Message------

Jalovec is obsolete and unreliable. For more accurate recent work, look up the individual luthiers in the 2014 Grove Dictionary of Musical Instruments and refer to their bibliographies. There is no single comprehensive list of extant old Cremona violins, and much controversy over the authenticity of many old violins bearing labels of Cremona makers.

 

Morris Steinert's collection went mostly to Yale, not to USD.

 

Laurence Libin

Original Message------

Hello Laurence -

You maintain Jalovec as being both obsolete and unreliable. Well, here's an extract from the LPO's Notice Board at Glyndebourne:

6. Obsolescence of equipment is another matter which required investigation and it was stated in the programme that the leading violinist's instrument was already several hundred years' old. If normal depreciation had been employed, this instrument could have been written off and more modern equipment purchased.

Hm-m-m-m    Michael   UK

Original Message------

Yes, that's amusing. Do you imply a parallel between obsolescence of published data and depreciation of instruments? I hope not.

 

By the way, if you haven't already done so, take a look at www.musee-piano-limoux.sitew.fr.

 

Laurence Libin

Original Message------

Thanks for this, Laurence - maybe I should pop over there whilst we're still able to do so without a Visa - I'm just 9 miles from the Port of Newhaven with ferry crossings to Dieppe. 

However, the site you gave I couldn't get to give much info and found this:

http://www.odeaanaude.eu/catalogaude2/eglise-st-jacques-et-musee-du-piano-limoux-p-454.html?language=en

I'm still trying to work out what you mean by Jalovec being 'obsolete' - true, it's a journey back in time looking through them but that's only to be expected!       Michael   UK

You can also check Home - Tarisio to get an idea of the fine violin auction scene.

------------------------------
Zeno Wood
Brooklyn, NY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 02-06-2017 02:42
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: off topic, violins

Hi, Michael, All,

In addition to the marvelous Jalovec volumes, I have a few other sources
for folks who may be interested.

- Millant - J.B. Viullaume (An illustrated catalog of the works of
Vuillaume, himself, as well as some of the "bench copies" made by his
advanced apprentices.)

- Jost Thoene - Italian and French Violin Makers

- Eugene Polanski - The Value of Old Violins.

-Lyon & Healy - Catalog of Old Violins, Violas, Violincellos; also
Bows of Rare Makes. (This one's a real stunner. At one time, L&H could
rightfully make the claim "everything in music.)

- M. Steinert - The M. Steinert Collection of Keyed and Stringed
Instruments. (At one point, probably the most important assemblage of
keyboard instruments in the U.S.. As the business changed, and the
Steinerts eventually sold to other parties, the collection was partly
sold, and partly donated in different directions. I think that a good
portion of it wound up in Vermillion, S.D., at the National Music
Museum...hopefully, someone knows more about this than I do.)

Over the years, I've acquired copies of all the the above. My wife,
Carol, owns and plays a J.B.Vuillaume that is listed in the Millant
book. That has been my inspiration for gathering the others.

Before everyone burns up the Internet looking for copies...which are
readily available for most of what's above...shop and price carefully.
I actively avoid anything "Print on Demand", unless it's either not
available or prohibitively expensive. Working through:

www.bookfinder.com

...decent copies of the above seem to start around $100 USD, and go up
(fairly quickly) to around $400 and up USD...plus applicable taxes and
shipping. (If they're worth having, it's also worth having a decent,
legible copy which might eventually have more than residual intrinsic
value.)

Also, starting at Bookfinder allows the shopper to quickly identify the
country from which the book would be shipped...which can add
significantly to the cost. (While Amazon and ABEbooks provide the same
service, it is not all on one page, as it is with Bookfinder. One
usually has to go to the specific page for each offering to find more
specific tax, shipping, and origin information.)

For piano technicians, to bring this back "on topic" (at least a little
bit), I would urge piano technicians to pick up copies of both the
M.Steinert, and the L&H catalog. These are sufficiently later than
Dolge's volumes that the information is more current to the period
following the non-crash of 1893 - 1895 (which, of course, didn't happen,
either)...which means after the shake out of hundreds (if not thousands)
of piano makers (at least in the U.S.) during that period.

Hope that this is some value to someone...someplace.

Kind regards.

Horace



On 2/5/2017 11:01 PM, Michael Gamble via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
>
> Refer to (Karel) Jalovec. I have two of his large illustrated books: 'Italian Violin Makers' and 'German & Austrian Violin Makers'. Both include authoritative lists of up to two thousand violin and 'Cello makers in the areas covered by each tome. My un-named 'Cello has a Lions Head Scroll Michael UK
>
>

Original Message------

On Saturday I listened to From The Top on NPR. Christopher O'Riley was talking with a student who had borrowed an old violin made in Cremona, Italy. It wasn't a Strad or Guaneri, but another maker. It is valued at over $1 million. I've heard about these instruments for years, most of them belonging to famous violinists, or their benefactors. But this got me to thinking. How many of these old Cremona made late 17th early 18th century violins, violas, and cellos are out there?  Is there a list somewhere?

So if any of you have the answer, or could ask one of the string professors at your school, I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message------

Thanks for all the responses, but I still don't have a number. I read anywhere from 600 to over 2000. What's a reasonable number?

 

Wim

 

Thanks, Laurence, for your explanation.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2017 10:07
From: Laurence Libin
Subject: off topic, violins

A couple of thousand extant 'Old Master' Cremona instruments may be a reasonable guess but no one knows. The only thing one can say for sure is that there are fewer every year. There's been no reliable inventory, and many questions remain as to the authenticity of certain instruments, even famous ones, claimed to be Strads, Guarneris, Amatis, and by all the less prominent Cremona makers. So many old violins have been more or less altered that there's not even consensus as to what constitutes a 'real' one. Not to mention the tens of thousands with fake labels or no labels and doubtful attributions from unscrupulous dealers, and excellent, undetected copies. Ambrose Bierce (1911) famously defined 'Cremona' as 'a high-priced violin made in Connecticut.'

 

However, much good archival and scientific work (e.g. dendrochronology, materials identification) has been done over the past generation, clarifying workshop practices, design and construction methods, and individual makers' and workshops' characteristic traits. This research has rendered invalid many earlier conclusions based, with scant physical evidence, on connoisseurship. Still, disagreements persist as to which instruments are 'original,' and what 'authentic' means in this context.

 

Laurence Libin