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Cranky wippens

  • 1.  Cranky wippens

    Posted 10-13-2017 01:56
    Colleagues,

    I take care of a very nice old A. B. Chase 5' 7" grand (originally a Wessell, Nickel & Gross action) that was well and thoroughly rebuilt by another technician about 12 to14 years ago. This piano gets a fair amount of use. I have taken care of it since the work was done, and all was fine until approximately 3 1/2 to 4 years ago, when the problems began.

    Here is the symptom: when you release the key slowly, the jack does not return to its resting position under the knuckle, causing the hammer to sink below the hammer line. Then the note is jammed for the next time the pianist wants to play it. This happens on many notes, most of which are in the mid-range of the piano.

    I have tried the following: upon examining the wippen, I discovered a divot on the underside of the repetition lever where the spring rests. (It's a butterfly spring.) I burnished the heck out of the groove to get rid of the little hole, and lubricated the spring with graphite at first, and VJ lube (lightly) on a subsequent visit. I reasoned that the spring was getting caught and couldn't glide smoothly on the rep lever. My "fix" always cured the problem perfectly, but only for a few months. My next attempt was to take a round nose plier and broaden the radius of the tip of the spring to disperse the pressure on the groove, hoping to avoid the "high heel effect" which was contributing to the divot. Again, this added fix seemed to help, along with even more burnishing and lubricating. The action is always problem free for a while, but then there's trouble.

    I have repinned parts as well, making sure that all the parts have the appropriate friction: one or two grams on the jack, 5 or 6 on the rep lever. I checked/corrected the pinning on the hammers as well, knowing that low gram resistance on the hammer flange also has an effect on the rep lever function. The knuckles have been lubricated a couple of times with micro-fine Teflon. Everything is regulated well, with the rep lever height set to allow the jack to barely brush the knuckle upon return, and the rep springs are as strong as I can make them without causing a bump when you release the key.

    It looks as though the wippens are made out of an appropriate hardwood, so I don't understand how the spring can dig a hole for itself. And why did they function fine for about 8 or 10 years? The customer's usage of the piano has not increased--she is a moderately serious player, and she teaches students as well.

    I am not absolutely positive about the brand of the wippens, but I believe they are Japanese-made. I have always used Renner parts, which have never given me any trouble.

    What have I missed? Has anyone else experienced this problem?

    Margie Williams
    pnotuner@pacbell.net

    "We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing." (Unknown)


  • 2.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2017 02:49
    Margie

    My first instinct is to lower the jack in the rep hole. (or the opposite, raise the jack window above the jack).  Give that jack just a little extra room to move back under the knuckle. Along with that, increase the rep spring just a tad, so that you get a little more that that gentle rise. Even a little bump doesn't hurt.  And last make sure the jack in the right position under the knuckle. (you know, the back edge of the jack is in line with the back edge of the knuckle core. You can cheat a little on that, too, moving the jack forward just a little, but not enough so that the jack escapes when bringing up the hammer on a hard blow.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2017 04:31
    Admittedly I've not had this problem happen, but I had a few thoughts. I would guess that the wood is not as hard as it should be. To create a divot in such a short amount of time doesn't seem normal to me. Other than replacement, I don't see how you'll change that. Clean out the slot and put thin CA glue to firm it up, and then relube it? The other idea I had was to check to see if the rest rail isn't too far from the shanks. You did polish the spring where it sits in the groove, right? I'll also assume that there aren't any issues like excess humidity changing the pinning friction.

    Good luck.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego

    --
    Colleagues,

    I take care of a very nice old A. B. Chase 5' 7" grand (originally a Wessell, Nickel & Gross action) that was well and thoroughly rebuilt by another technician about 12 to14 years ago. This piano gets a fair amount of use. I have taken care of it since the work was done, and all was fine until approximately 3 1/2 to 4 years ago, when the problems began.

    Here is the symptom: when you release the key slowly, the jack does not return to its resting position under the knuckle, causing the hammer to sink below the hammer line. Then the note is jammed for the next time the pianist wants to play it. This happens on many notes, most of which are in the mid-range of the piano.

    I have tried the following: upon examining the wippen, I discovered a divot on the underside of the repetition lever where the spring rests. (It's a butterfly spring.) I burnished the heck out of the groove to get rid of the little hole, and lubricated the spring with graphite at first, and VJ lube (lightly) on a subsequent visit. I reasoned that the spring was getting caught and couldn't glide smoothly on the rep lever. My "fix" always cured the problem perfectly, but only for a few months. My next attempt was to take a round nose plier and broaden the radius of the tip of the spring to disperse the pressure on the groove, hoping to avoid the "high heel effect" which was contributing to the divot. Again, this added fix seemed to help, along with even more burnishing and lubricating. The action is always problem free for a while, but then there's trouble.

    I have repinned parts as well, making sure that all the parts have the appropriate friction: one or two grams on the jack, 5 or 6 on the rep lever. I checked/corrected the pinning on the hammers as well, knowing that low gram resistance on the hammer flange also has an effect on the rep lever function. The knuckles have been lubricated a couple of times with micro-fine Teflon. Everything is regulated well, with the rep lever height set to allow the jack to barely brush the knuckle upon return, and the rep springs are as strong as I can make them without causing a bump when you release the key.

    It looks as though the wippens are made out of an appropriate hardwood, so I don't understand how the spring can dig a hole for itself. And why did they function fine for about 8 or 10 years? The customer's usage of the piano has not increased--she is a moderately serious player, and she teaches students as well.

    I am not absolutely positive about the brand of the wippens, but I believe they are Japanese-made. I have always used Renner parts, which have never given me any trouble.

    What have I missed? Has anyone else experienced this problem?

    Margie Williams
    pnotuner@pacbell.net

    "We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing." (Unknown)




  • 4.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2017 13:25
    Are you sure that the divot in the spring grub is the cause?  Have you tried temporarily swapping out a wippen from a properly functioning note?

    ------------------------------
    Zeno Wood
    Brooklyn, NY
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2017 14:20
    Hi, Margie,

    I’ve had a similar problem before, even on Renner repetitions, with the spring wearing a tiny bare spot in the lubrication in the “grub” (the spring groove). But it yielded pretty quickly to the techniques I’ve seen people describe here, and it didn’t come back each year. When I worked on that problem, I also painted McLube on the little contact area, the bend in the spring, before re-inserting it, too. That prolonged the fix. As much as we all hate the messiness of the old black graphite globs, with the crumbs that fall out and make trouble, I’ve heard some technicians say it lasts longer than some more modern stuff. I don’t really have a preference either way.

    I have had occasion when I could get slow springs to come back to life by pushing the repetition lever up and down, farther than its usual excursion, which drags and redistributes whatever type of lubrication is in the grub. When I do that I hold down the key ends, with the hammers standing up, push several repetitions down as far as they allow, several times, and do the whole set. That only works if it’s a lubrication problem, and minor.

    Sometimes lubrication wasn’t the actual cause - once I found the jacks not returning because of swollen birds-eye wood, which you can feel resisting even when the spring is out of the picture. That’s a tougher fix, requiring you to unpin them and swipe with a little sandpaper file - carefully!

    One more thing to check, especially if it’s just a few, is the metal spring itself where it inserts into the hole in the bottom back of the jack. I’ve found, even on new pianos on occasion, that the spring has rough spots, or is cut to the wrong length, and fights a smooth return. A few times, I’ve found a spring end cut so long that it goes right through the hole to the wood on the other side and rubs.

    You’ve had lots of food for thought offered here already, just a couple more ideas.

    Kathy




  • 6.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2017 10:13
    I have had the problem of the divot in the groove a few times over the years. I finally made a tool to scrape out the groove, out of a very cheap small screwdriver. I bent the shank right below the screwdriver blade at a right angle, then made another additional bend a little farther on, up some more so it is not quite a U. I filed the sides of the blade so it matched the contour of the groove, then sharpened the sides (beveled them). It will fit in the rep window behind the jack. Remove the spring to one side, scrape, apply a bit of Protek MLP (I think that's right, the "grease") or similar with a pipe cleaner appropriately bent to get access. This can go quite fast, and solves the problem much more permanently than burnishing with a pencil lead (which I have also tried).

    Alternately, if you remove the stack, you can use a similar scraper tool (home made) that doesn't have the U bend, and just go in between the bottoms of the wipps. 

    I don't get why this symptom would appear in such a short time with moderate use. My most recent is a Steinway B with 10-15 year old parts (can't remember if Steinway or Renner, I didn't install them), in a private client's teaching studio, with about 8 hours a day of use. It was troublesome to diagnose - complaint of occasional repetition problems in the lower mid range. I had tried (previous visits) the usual: rep spring strength, check distance, ensure that the jack will return when lightly tripped at rest, etc. So I addressed all those (slightly) and wasn't finding the symptom, but next tuning he'd tell me it was still there. 

    I finally noticed that when checking rep spring strength, the hammer wouldn't quite rise to drop screw contact, and that was the giveaway. Feeling the motions (manipulating by hand) I could feel a resistance. 
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "Art is not a mirror held up to reality, but a hammer with which to shape it." Brecht






  • 7.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2017 11:24
    Margie
    Lots of great suggestions. I'll add one more
    Make sure the key balance holes are not binding. If the key can't return fully to rest cause it binds on the balance pin, the jack is the first to complain about it. 
    I also prefer to pin my rep levers at 8 grams, tho I don't think that's the issue. 
    Let us know what you find!

    Debbie Cyr
    Registered Piano Technician 
    508-202-2862 cell

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 8.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2017 16:48
    Margie, lots of excellent ideas. I may save the thread -- thanks for starting it. And I like AB Chase.

    You did a lot of what I'd have done, including paying attention to the 3 way trade-off between hammer flange friction, spring strength, and smoothness of touch, which I think often does not get the attention it deserves, as people rush toward having less and less friction in hammer flange centers. 

    Thinking about the likely age of this piano, it seems probable that the action was designed when the words "hammers can be as free as possible, so long as there is no side motion" had never been heard on earth. I kind of wish they had never been heard at all. I think a more accurate statement might have been, "you can get away with hammers which swing 15 times if you are willing to feel a kick in the key when playing softly, and/or you are willing to have poor repetition and some jamming problems if the hammers are high off the cushions at rest. Just call it catastrophic action failure, as if you understood what's happening."

    Well, what's the appeal of saying that? It doesn't even sound slick, and keeping friction in hammer flanges of heavily used pianos is labor intensive. 

    My rule of thumb in this situation would be 4 grams of friction for the hammers; certainly no more than 2 grams in the jack, less would be better; and between 6 and 8 in the balancier. Luckily the jack friction and the balancier friction are likely to stay put, but one certainly cannot say that about the hammer friction, especially in pianos getting heavy daily use.

    The kick in the key of course gets worse if the keybushings are getting worn and the balance rail holes are getting egged out, as they can on an older piano.

    Assuming that wide humidity swings are not an issue limiting one's choices, I think I'd try hammers at 4 grams -- maybe pin to 5 grams, since just working the parts hard a few times before putting them back on usually loses a gram or so -- 1 gram jacks, 6 to 8 gram balanciers, and jack springs strong enough for a ready but not trembly-anxious rise, kind of a "yes, boss, HERE I AM" salute sort of rise, without any "but I've been KICKED" shuddering.

    I assume you've worked on whether you can keep the shanks a little closer to the cushions at rest, so the jacks are less likely to catch on the fronts of the knuckles? If the balancier dips too low so that the jack gets caught, the action is just begging for more friction and spring strength  to work right.

    I have a research project in mind (has been for awhile) which I really need to get to. We had a thread recently talking about repinning flanges and then testing them a very short time later, finding that the friction just doesn't stay where it was put. I've found that when I rebush flange centers, it's hard to get as much friction as I think I should have, and it also doesn't stay around as well as I'd like. If one puts in all that work, one would really like to have a durable result.

    Looking at the process of bushing flanges, I focused on the step where one puts in a slightly smaller size pin than one expects to use when assembling the parts, then douses the flange with alcohol and water ("vodka"). All the wool fibers get excited, and they crowd the pin. The hole gets to be exactly round, and once the water dries, the part is free. Too free, is my suspicion. Someone got more stable results by heating the pin (with a cigarette lighter flame, but no need to use that ..) This would iron the bushing cloth, making it more dense instead of more fluffy. Washing wool with water makes it fluffy, as anyone trying to wash wool sweaters realizes.

    The study might be to take about a dozen identical parts (I have some used Renner hammer shanks and flanges which should do well.) Divide them into two groups. Carefully bore out the old cloth and rebush identically, (same strip), except for six put in the sizing pin and wet with vodka, and for the other six put in the sizing pin and add heat. I probably would take my old Mehaffey "zapper" and zap the sizing pin, but before the parts were assembled, so it wouldn't char the birdseyes -- the fatal flaw of that device carelessly used.

    Assemble the parts, keeping the two sets separate. Pin them all to the same friction. I bet the ironed ones would need a larger size of center pin to get the same friction ... Check them all a day later, a week later, two weeks later ... if the friction goes down for the vodka batch but not the zapped batch, try a whole set and put them on a heavily used practice piano. Check to see if the friction stays in the right range over time.




    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Member
    Posted 10-18-2017 11:34
    Interesting discussion since i am going out of my mind trying to regulate an action on a Huntington grand piano. The piano is what it is and I am not sure what shape it was before I got it sent my way. The piano was in a home that had flooding and the extra moisture caused all of the hammer felt to come unglued either on the front or back of the molding. The knuckles had wear as well so I had the hammers, shanks,flanges duplicated. The whippens are in good shape but they use a screw to adjust the rep springs . I replaced the hammer rebound felt with the same size felt but trying to get the hammers to be a shank thickness off the felt at rest is impossible. I can get setoff and drop in the hammers but do not get any rep spring rise when doing a slow release of the key after back checking. Perhaps someone has regulated one of these beasts but it is driving me insane. I put all new backcheck heads on at the same height as the old checks which had gotten crusty and mildewed. The existing wires barely have bends in them and have a lean to them . Thinking pinning was a problem I found less than a gram on the balancier
    of the first and last whip in each section. I checked the hammer flange pinning and got between 1 and 2 grams. Stir could not get the hammers to rise up after check and slow release. Just before i wrapped it up i tried several notes in the middle of the action and they checked and had good spring assisted rise. I noticed however that the checking was way low on the back check. by this i mean the tail was way down on the back check.

     So... what is wrong with this picture- is the action geometry way off , is this a poor design or is this and example of an action that works but does not meet the usual general specs . Does anyone have the regulation "specs" for a huntington grand if there is such a thing- also should the rep springs be bent in any direction or should they only be adjusted with the screws ?

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2017 03:45
    Hi, James

    I think that instead of looking for specs for a particular brand and action, you would do better to start with a rule-of-thumb average kind of blow distance and see if you can make it and the shank distance above the cushions work, changing it all as needed to get good function.

    If the checking is very low the fast loud repetition will be just about impossible. I'd try different back check angles until you get good geometry with the tails, checking about 1/2" from the strings, and a progressive wedging as the hammers are pressed down into check. You can figure this out by having the action out, play a note so the hammer goes into check, hold down the key, and then tap on the top of the hammer to see how easily it moves down into the backcheck.

    To get the checking higher of course the clearance between the tails and the backchecks has to be decreased, and you need to be sure that the tails aren't dragging on the way up. Putting pressure on the top of a hammer with one hand while slowly pressing down the key with the other will reveal if the clearance has gone from close to almost nil, and also whether jacks want to cheat.

    If your new backchecks have threaded wires, you can also experiment with different backcheck heights by unwinding the checks to make them higher, or winding them on further to make them lower. It sounds like they are already too low, which is just as well, because twisting the checks several turns to get them lower can crack them. Of course if you turn them too high they might just fall off, in which case you'd need to pull the wires out of the keys a little ways, which is kind of a hard and nasty job.

    Well, sorry if I've just told you lots of things you already knew. Good luck with the job.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2017 11:14
    James, 
    With respect to your question about adjusting the rep spring strength, if you need more strength than screw adjustment can give, by all means release the spring end from the thread it attaches to, and open up the coil by pulling it up, then re-attach. It may be that the wire has fatigued, and thus the spring is too weak in its current configuration.

    (BTW, this applies to all screw adjusted springs, including the Renner ones on butterfly wippens, where a release of the spring from the nylon thingee, and coarse adjustment as you would do on butterfly springs of the more standard design, is often necessary so that it will be possible to do the screw adjustment to the strength needed).
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda






  • 12.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2017 22:19
    James,

    You can pop the spring off the cord and increase its tension like a butterfly spring.  But adjust the regulatiing screw to give yourself room to adjust the tension up or down after you introduce more bend into the spring but before you test it.  Also, the lower the backchecks catch the greater rebound you might get from the the spring.  If you raise the backcheck height on those that are getting some rise you may lose the rise.  So try to get backchecks at a good place before you finalize your spring tension.

    Good luck.

    Gary Bruce
    Registered Piano Technician
    CLICK HERE to schedule your next piano tuning.

    405-285-8324 (store)
    405-413-8863 (cell)
    BruceMusicStore.com

    We would love for you to connect with us!





  • 13.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-20-2017 00:06
    Of course you might get better rise and more rebound from deep into the check, because the spring will have more tension in it. However, before opting for this tradeoff, you'd better be sure that no one will need for the piano to have good fast repetition, especially when played loud.

    Well, there are pianos in private homes where good fast repetition is never an issue ... I suppose. Personally, I'd rather increase friction enough that spring tension can be high enough without widening the check distance.

    While I understand that action part makers have to send parts to every climate on earth, so they usually favor parts with little enough friction that they still will more or less work in a steam bath, I think that Tokiwa's pinning repetition levers at 1 to 2 grams is simply a very bad idea. I'd repin them all to between 6 and 8 grams before installing them.

    Kawai had a fascinating slow motion video at a convention. The company prevailed upon some hapless pianist to master fast repetition at 10 notes per second (if I remember right), and then photographed the hammers and backchecks. After every single note the tail got into check. I found the sight of that to be very persuasive. Of course the checking has to be high or the hammer will take too long to get back to the string. Too high but with very solid checking, and repetition will be fast as spit, but cannot be loud enough.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Posted 10-18-2017 23:28
    Hello everyone,

    Apologies in advance for the long email.  I am placing the most significant information first, so you can stop reading when you've had enough!

    It took me this long to get back to the list because I contacted the technician who did the work, who in turn contacted the seller, Pacific Piano Supply.  Randy Morton replied.  The important info he had was that Tokiwa redesigned the wippens about 10 years or so ago, after my customer's parts were installed on the piano in August 2003.  He generously offered to send me a few of the newest rep levers to pin on the "high traffic" areas of the action, should there be any more trouble.  Here is his response:

    Since this time, (10 -12 years ago) I have had Tokiwa make several changes in this area to improve the quality and function of grand wippens.

    1.        Changed the curve on the tip of the springs (copied Hamburg Steinway) – This changed the tip to more of a "half-circle" instead of the earlier "half-oval" shape.

    2.       Changed the spring slot (also to copy Hamburg Steinway wippen)-  made this slot wider, with less angle on the sides

    3.       Changed the slot lubricant from graphite to emralon (this was to stop some "squeaking" of the springs – this is Yamaha's method and material)

    The problem as described sounds like the groove is too narrow, and there is some kind of excessive friction on the tip of the spring.

    Margie says she repined the rep levers (5-6 grams).   She also states that the springs are "strong as I can make them without causing a bump"   She also tried  "round nose pliers to broaden the radius of the tip"  (our changing the shape was to make the contact point less, thereby lowering the drag an propensity to "squeak"- broadening the radius would increase the surface contact and friction)

    These are all admirable and logical solutions, but may have increased the spring tension and surface friction at the slide point, thus the rapid recurrence of the "digging" of the spring into the wood.

    Although quite popular with many Techs, the repining the rep lever at much higher friction at the center, to make spring adjustment less "touchy", is not recommended by Tokiwa.  Factory friction at the rep lever center is 1-2 grams

     Finally, the use of VJ lube makes a temporary improvement, but then gets "gummy" and makes everything worse in my experience.


    What I didn't mention in the original post (because it didn't help) was that one of the fixes I had tried was installing Renner springs of a smaller diameter in the low tenor.  (I had experienced this action failure on brand new Steinways from the late 80's/early 90's.  More info at the end of the email on the reasons for trying that fix.*)  So when the problem recurred, I thought that perhaps I should stick to the original profile of the tip of the spring that contacts the grub.  So I used a round-nosed plier to straighten the tips of the Renner springs to resemble the original Tokiwa parts.  For comparison, attached is a photo of an old Steinway wippen spring (complete with a glob of whatever the lubricant-du-jour was) which shows a very flattened out spring.  It could be that the shape of the spring doesn't matter that much; we have ample evidence that both shapes can work.

    Randy sent me photos of old and new wippen grubs, and I can see that the new one is definitely wider and more U shaped as opposed to V shaped.  Newer Steinway parts (I have a newish Steinway wippen of unknown age) seem to have the wider grub, but old Steinway wippens, of which I have samples from several different eras, have a tight fitting grub.  Again, we have ample evidence that both grub shapes can work.

    What did fix the one note (and thankfully, unlike past visits, I could not make any other notes misbehave) was an extremely slight rep lever height adjustment and more burnishing.  (On all my visits to this piano, I have always used a shaped piece of maple, such as from a hammer shank, and not just a pencil tip.)  I also applied Dag lubricant, and lightly polished/burnished it.  Action regulation seems to be unusually touchy for this piano.

    As for the rest of the suggestions from the list, I faithfully checked out all of the rest of them except for trying to harden the slot with CA glue or similar.  (That seemed a bridge too far; however, I may be hardening and compressing the wood by repeatedly burnishing the grub.)  I appreciated all the suggestions, but alas, none of the conditions that were suggested were present for me to correct.  How I wish one of them had pertained to the problem.

    An interesting addition to the question of how to get the jack to successfully seat itself under the knuckle was to pay attention to the profile of the back edge of the jack.  Two local technicians who have had more experience with the Tokiwa wippen commented that the back of the jack on Tokiwa parts is a sharp 90 degrees, whereas the Renner jack is slightly beveled at the back.  This bevel is a good idea, to help give the jack every advantage to slip back under the knuckle.  The first thing I tried was adding a bevel using very fine sandpaper and re-graphiting, but only a very modest improvement resulted--not enough to call it a fix.  I asked Randy if the jack profile had been changed as well, but he didn't answer that question.  Again, checking my inventory of old parts, my old Steinway jacks didn't seem to have an eased edge.  I'm sure I've seen some old Steinway wippens where the back of the jack has a slight bevel.  Again, both types of parts can work, as we have had lots of years of playing the piano in real life to prove it.

    I don't know how to organize or think about all this disparate information and seemingly contradictory dimensions and production techniques.  There does not seem to be one overall cause or fix of the problem I described.  The closest I came was burnishing and re-burnishing the grub--perhaps the cumulative effect is making the wood denser and harder after all, so that it resists digging a hole.  I don't recall having the problem of catastrophic action failure (hammer sinking below hammer line) on any old Steinway parts, no matter how dilapidated, worn out and decrepit the parts were or how out of regulation the action was.  Even verdigris, although making the jack extremely sluggish, didn't seem to permit the hammer to drop below the hammer line.  A sluggish jack due to verdigris is an action failure, but can be addressed fairly easily, if not permanently.  Similarly, I don't think that pinning had all that much effect either.  Not to downplay the importance of the correct friction (or approximation thereof, since humidity and wear/tear wreak havoc with our most meticulous work) but I'm sure we've all seen actions with very tight centers or very loose centers, neither of which produces this kind of action failure.

    After-market manufacturers of action parts have a tough job to fulfill.  Since their parts have to work on a variety of pianos and with a variety of other parts, namely hammers whose weights can vary from maker to maker, they have to choose a middle ground.  This is unlike the old days where factories generally had control over the whole process:  exact dimensions of parts, weights of hammers, choice of lubricants etc. and the proper pairing of all of the above.

    *Steinway installed Renner action parts with NY hammers on their models B and D starting in the mid 80's and continuing for a few years.  When my husband, Mark Anderson, (who has since become another version of RPT--Recovering Piano Technician) was working for the local Sherman Clay dealership, he encountered 3 or 4 pianos with this problem of the hammer sinking below the hammer line, aka catastrophic action failure.  It occurred exclusively in the low tenor.  He checked out all of the possibilities we discussed here but could find nothing that made any difference whatsoever.  He then observed the jack as it was returning on a slow release of the key.  Of course it didn't make it back under the knuckle, allowing the jack to jam on the front side of the knuckle.  Mark somehow got the bright idea to think about repetition spring size.  To test out his theory, he swapped out a wippen located farther up in the treble that had a smaller repetition spring diameter.  When he placed that wippen with the smaller spring size on a low tenor note, which naturally had a heavier hammer, he had to increase the strength of the spring to get adequate rise-on-release.  Et voila.  The problem was fixed permanently by installing a smaller size spring on all the low tenor notes.  It seems counterintuitive to select a smaller size spring, but not when you consider the functions of the spring (jack return but also support of the hammer at rest) and how we determine the correct regulation.  I think watching the rise on release is the only indirect method we use during action regulation.  Everything else of importance (let-off, drop, jack position, key height, dip, backchecks, rep lever height, etc.) is a direct observation of that particular function.  Rise on release stands in as a proxy for the real observation which is difficult to see:  getting the jack to return under the knuckle, especially on a slow release of the key.  A heavier hammer paired with a smaller spring requires greater spring tension, giving the hammer more support while at rest.  (If you push down on the hammer while it's at rest, you should not be able to jam the hammer below the hammer line and make it stick.)  Although the original spring size could produce the desired rise on release, it turned out to be too flabby at rest.  Although we don't know for sure, one theory is that Renner hammers in the low tenor were heavier compared to the NY hammers in the low tenor, resulting in a hammer weight/rep spring mismatch.








  • 15.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Posted 10-19-2017 06:32
    Have you considered jack center and knuckle alignment or the height of the wiper center to the hammer center height?

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 16.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Member
    Posted 10-19-2017 10:15
    i think you should submit this post along with pictures to the pig journal. i have had trouble with cheating jacks and found that putting a radius on the back edge of the jack can help get it back under the knuckle. I had a real Pramberger grand owned by a Doctor which had jacks jamming . If i recall I did a number of things including lubricating the top of the jack and rep lever, the grub. I also checked the jack and whip pin friction. I was beginning to think it had the dreaded young chang center pin plating issue however when I checked the friction of the balancer it was a 1 or 2. After new pins the friction was 5 to 6 and problem went away. It seemed to occur when the key was played with less force .

    I am not sure the rules of thumb we often use apply to every piano. The Huntington grand I am working on has some rather unique features in the the rep spring is adjusted with a screw and all of the back check wires are barely bent. Another feature is the presence of key frame bedding screws that come up through the keyed and are used to bed the frame front rail. I saw a picture of these last night in the Reblitz rebuilding book. They were on a cable grand which is probably what the Huntington is

    Anyway your post is great with lots of good stuff

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 17.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Posted 10-19-2017 11:46
    Well, this has been an interesting discussion. It has reminded me of one of those things that has mostly stayed in the back of my mind: the return force on the jack. I've always pondered the difference in testing for rep lever height: Steinway "rolls the flys", and pretty much everyone else tests the elevation of jack top to rep lever top. I have always wondered if there is something about the design of the jack and its spring in Steinways that gives it extra strength in returning under the knuckle.

    I have also had repetition problems, like Kathy's, due to the spring length and/or bend going into the jack. The problems resulted in very low spring force on the jack, so it would not return properly.

    I work mostly on Steinways, largely due to my history here in Seattle, so I don't have a lot of experience with regulating other pianos. I also am usually moving a bit too fast to take time for research. I'm speaking of simply measuring the spring force at the top of the jack. Shouldn't be hard to do, and might be enlightening.

    Anyone?

    Doug

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    Douglas Wood
    Seattle WA
    206-935-5797
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  • 18.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Member
    Posted 10-19-2017 13:14
    It would be nice to have the factory stamp the factory friction on the part. I would never have known that Tolkiwa does not recommend higher friction in the 5 to 6 gram range for example. The new hammers/shanks and flanges I got from Pianotech are pinned at about 1 gram. I got only about 3 to 3.5 swings doing a swing test- you would think the swing would be more when the gram gauge showed close to nothing....

    I will be spending more time reviewing all of the action parts, heights etc to come up with something that will work on samples in each section.

    BTW replacing rep springs seems like a huge task to undertake. I think I would only do it if I could prove metal fatigue .I think doing before and after readings as well as the effect of various changes should prove useful. I think there are many teachable  moments ahead with this beast. Who knows maybe I will submit an article about this piano and its history.....

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 19.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2017 13:33
    Action manufacturers do have their own parameters for friction, but it will vary with RH. So what they set in their factory is unlikely to be duplicated when it reaches your shop (probably by way of some intermediate distributor). I don't think any manufacturer recommends pinning rep levers at the 6 - 8 gm many piano technicians are recommending (for their own reasons). 

    The only printed standards I can recall were Steinway's for teflon bushings. As I recall, it was something like 4 - 6 for shank, and less for everything else, but maybe someone has those figures ready to hand. I recall it being essentially impossible to achieve the recommendation, as machining them with the parallel reamers they provided would yield more like 6 - 10 gm. You would have to do something in addition to a simple machining (turning the reamer in the bushing) to get lower levels of friction. 






  • 20.  RE: Cranky wippens

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2017 13:56
    James wrote:
    "The new hammers/shanks and flanges I got from Pianotech are pinned at about 1 gram. I got only about 3 to 3.5 swings doing a swing test- you would think the swing would be more when the gram gauge showed close to nothing…."

    IF there is a hammer head on the end of that shank, then you must be in some sort anti-gravity vortex, because one gram of friction and only three swings is quite an incongruity. Something doesn't add up here...

    Alan


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    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
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