CAUT

  • 1.  Humidity and Organ Pipes

    Posted 12-15-2016 20:43

    Can someone enlighten me about the effect of humidity change on the pitch of wood organ pipes?

    For example, if the organ is tuned to 440hz at 45% r.h., and then the humidity drops to 15%, what will happen to the pitch?

    Thank you!

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 2.  RE: Humidity and Organ Pipes

    Posted 12-15-2016 21:14
    Probably not much unless it's a stopped rank and the stoppers move, but it's bad for the wood if the humidity changes quickly. 

    Laurence Libin

    Sent from my iPad





  • 3.  RE: Humidity and Organ Pipes

    Member
    Posted 12-16-2016 07:39
    Ed

    My understand having worked with an organ tuner is that the expansion and contraction of the pipe is not as important as the "weight" of the air in the column. The more humidity, the heavier th air column and if memory serves me correctly, the lower the pitch. It works the opposite of the piano. That is why the temperature is so important when tuning an organ. A slight change of temperature shifts the relative humidity and greatly affects the flue pipes. The reeds, on the other hand, are tuned by adjusting the length of the vibrating reed and then matching the air column  (resonator) to the reed pitch. They stay more constant but get blamed when the flues change due to temperature and humidity and they no longer match the rest of the instrument. This is why a piano should always be tuned to the pitch the organ was turned to no matter what pitch the organ is sitting at at the time of the tuning. When the heat at the time of preformance returns to where it was when the organ was turned, it will drop back into tune.

    Rex Roseman 





  • 4.  RE: Humidity and Organ Pipes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-16-2016 12:13
    I don't think it is the mass of the air that affects pitch in organ pipes. Rather, it is simply the speed of sound, that varies with temperature. IOW, it is the speed with which the vibrations are propagated in air (that plus the length of the column, assuming a constant speed of the vibrating source - reed, buzzing lips on brass, etc.). RH does affect the speed of sound slightly, but far less than temperature. From freezing to room temp, the speed of sound increases by about 15%. From 0% to 100% RH, it increases 0.7%.
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico






  • 5.  RE: Humidity and Organ Pipes

    Posted 12-16-2016 11:06
    I agree, not much should change but what you need to be watchful is that hot lights don’t go on and off during a tuning; that will affect the pitch.




  • 6.  RE: Humidity and Organ Pipes

    Posted 12-16-2016 12:43

    Thank you for the differing opinions, which is also what I found in a web search.

    This is a small portative organ which must match a harpsichord at 440 for the annual Messiah.

    It has not been a problem in past years, but this a different organ and tuner.

    It will be retuned this evening just before performance.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413



  • 7.  RE: Humidity and Organ Pipes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-16-2016 15:37
    When I have done that (match harpsichord to portative for Messiah) it has been a challenge, because the time window was too tight. Both instruments moved in being on the cold side due to outside weather during transit. Each is going to be moving in a different direction as it warms back up in the hall. If they have a day, or at least several hours, to settle, you have a fighting chance. I'd move in and find the harpsichord was about 10¢ sharp (having had the heat on in the van for the 20 minute trip), and the organ guy would find his instrument 10¢ flat. What to do, with performance in 2 hours, and people coming to warm up in one hour? There is no correct answer. I would leave the harpsichord as sharp as I thought I could get away with (couldn't leave it untuned, as the brass bass strings were considerably out of tune with the rest of the instrument). Grin and bear it. This was a multiple year problem, Sunday matinee done in a church, church not empty until 1 pm. I finally persuaded them to find me a closet to move into the day before.

    Sent from my iPad




  • 8.  RE: Humidity and Organ Pipes

    Posted 12-16-2016 20:15

    I met the organ tuner today. He said the problem is that the organ is underpowered, resulting in pitch changes depending on registration plus a damaged A4 pipe and an organist who keeps trying to adjust the tuning!

    The harpsichord is a 1986 Kingston owned by the Charlotte symphony. Two months ago i tuned it last in r.h. 55%. Tuesday it arrived in the other auditorium to 39% r.h., and Wednesday morning I raised pitch 80-110 cents. The heat came on. by Wednesday evening it was 25% r.h. and I raised pitch another 12 cents or so. The weather continued getting colder and the heat stayed on, down to 9%r.h. by Thursday, and pitch continued to drop another 16 cents in 24 hours, so my best guess is to tune about 1 cent sharp about 2 hours before performance, assuming the rate of pitch loss is slowing.  If it was harpsichord only, I'd go for 440.5, but here I'm hoping to match the organ. 

    The Kingston harpsichord is quite a trouper, and is in very good condition despite years of humidity abuse.

    I've come to enjoy chasing the pitch around, and will miss doing it. My tuning career in Charlotte ends tomorrow with the last tuning of the harpsichord.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413



  • 9.  RE: Humidity and Organ Pipes

    Posted 12-17-2016 08:52

    Thanks to Ed for starting this discussion. I too am wrestling with matching a harpsichord to a portative organ for Messiah.

    It was especially helpful to know the two instruments move in opposite directions with temp changes.

    Fred Brown RPT

    Jax Symphony

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    Fred Brown
    Saint Augustine FL
    904-687-8353



  • 10.  RE: Humidity and Organ Pipes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2016 13:25

    I focused on temperature in my posts, but the RH effects described by Ed Sutton are very familiar. I find harpsichords 100 - 150¢ sharp or flat after rises or falls of 30 - 40 percentage points (e.g. 20% to 60% to 20%). And I have often enough experienced a harpsichord that was at pitch at my place, falling 10 - 20¢ and more over the course of a week in a drier hall, especially under hot lights. Bottom line is I tune often, and recommend that strongly. And if I have a good inkling that is going to occur, I will tend to tune sharp in anticipation (1 or 2 hz).

    This year's rentals have been very mild, with minimal pitch change for some reason, presumably the venues not being as different from my place. 

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda