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Strange Action Situation

  • 1.  Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-20-2017 06:55
    Hello all. Terry Farrell here. This is my first post to the official PTG forum - I had tried some years ago when it was first created and was never able to use it - thought I'd give it another try and hopefully this will go through!

    Went to a new client's home today to take a look at some keys that weren't working. Piano is a 1994 Samick SG-185 in pretty nice condition (well, except the action!).

    Bunch of notes in treble would not play at all and some others only play sometimes. No big mystery there - jacks are real slow, so, some repining is in order - pretty straight forward.

    However, most of the remaining keys that do play don't play properly. Key dip is very shallow - about 8 mm or so. Hammers do not go through let-off, so they strike the string and then bobble around. I noticed that the few keys down at the bass end did go though let-off and key dip was about right (10mm). I sighted down the front edge of the keytops and I could easily see that the keys sloped downward from high treble to a low in the area of the bass/tenor break and then sloped back up at the bottom end of the bass section. This piano has not been played hard and there is no (good) reason for the regulation to be that far out of whack on a 23 year old piano. I also noticed that the 5 screws that hold the action brackets to the key frame were all funky. The two end screws were sunk way down into the bracket foot - like a different screw was used that had a smaller head or something. The other three screws were partially unscrewed. I did not remove the action completely, as I knew I had to return to pick the action up and take back to my shop for the repining and whatever else. But I did take a quick look at the rear action-bracket-to-key-bed screws and they appeared to be properly installed.

    So what gives? I'm just curious what others think the problem might be. I'm assuming that someone did not remove center rail punchings to lower the keys (not that I won't keep that possibility in mind!). I will, of course, do a thorough initial inspection of the action keyframe, brackets, rails, etc., etc. to make sure nothing is warped/broken/whatever.

    The only thing I can really think of is that the rear bracket screws are in fact not all the way in and the stack - or at least the mid section of the stack - is raised up a bit allowing the rear end of the keys to go upward the and front end to go down. Or maybe the blocks of wood that the bracket screws are set in (I think there were blocks that sat atop the action frame) are not secured to the action frame and they somehow have moved up.

    So I guess this is this week's technical teaser - (do y'all do technical teasers on this forum?) - and I don't know the answer yet either!

    I plan on picking up the action tomorrow. That will be interesting in itself (I'll clue you in on that tomorrow……).

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    President
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Member
    Posted 05-20-2017 09:16
    The top stack is not properly tightened to the keyframe. sounds like someone had it out in the past but maybe some of the screws were mixed sizes not long enough etc or with humidity they lost the ability to hold. Not a piano in the group with action bracket issues. I just did a YC . Get screws all the same length and strart over. you may be wise to use some wood filler or at least some tooth picks mixed with a little glue to close up the screw holes. Also the order you snug the brackets is important

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-20-2017 10:07
    Someone obviously messed this up. The first thing I think was messed up was that the angled bracket screws were inserted before the vertical ones. They may have also messed with the key frame bedding.  I would suggest you take it all down to basics and build it back up. Also sounds like it has plated center pins. Good luck there.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-20-2017 10:23

    "I would suggest you take it all down to basics and build it back up."

    Thanks Larry. That was my plan. First inspect all parts carefully to make sure everything is straight and intact. Then start setting the action up and regulating - like I just put all new parts in the action. Seems like the best approach.

    James suggested that some of the action bracket screw holes in the keyframe might be stripped. I agree that is certainly a possibility. However, for something as critical as the action bracket screws, I would feel much more comfortable plugging the stripped holes and redrilling.

    "Also sounds like it has plated center pins."

    I've always had the understanding that most or all center pins are plated. I am aware of the history of some Samick center pins having plating problems - I've run into that several times over the years. And that certainly could be the problem here. What I do is remove a couple of the pins from the tightest action centers and inspect them closely under the magnifying glass to see whether it is the plating or just "normal" too-tightness.



    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    President
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Member
    Posted 05-20-2017 12:17
    If it is the center pins you are in for one wild ride, I had a Samick here that was all over the place. I repined several hammer flanges and jacks and marked the parts I did with chaulk. Got a call back and there were more seizing up at which time I told the client my suspicions the piano had cp issues. I fixed the 4 or 5 that seized and marked them. After the event was over that she was using the piano for she called to complain that the piano was screwed up and lots of notes where hanging up. said I would come back and if was any of the notes I had done I would redo but anything new was hers. Never heard from her again but I was not going to repin the entire action for free. I have seen this on several samicks two which came here from florida

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-20-2017 13:01
    Was she expecting you to repin the action for free?

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    President
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Member
    Posted 05-20-2017 15:45
    She was implying that I caused all the problems in the piano . It had not been tuned in a few years and it was used for this fund raiser event done in the area in which people with pianos host a dinner cooked by a personal chef. A pianist is hired for the night to provide the entertainment and there is a cocktail hour. Not only was the piano located next to the patio but the door was left open while people went in an out of the house. The house had been having air conditioning problems when I had been there previously and it was documented in my records . she was looking either for a full refund, a free repin or both.  I was willing to go back and refix anything that I had chalked but one of my fellow techs talked me down and said that unless I liked self abuse to forget about.

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-20-2017 17:26
    Oh dear. I'm so sorry. Silly me, I didn't even think of the client being unreasonable!  :-(

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    President
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-21-2017 01:02
    That goes with:
    "You put that click in there" and "You put that buzz in there"!
    Good luck,
    Linda

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 10.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-20-2017 13:12
    Terry

    The action problems have been addressed, but the sluggish jacks are a different situation. As James said, Samick center pins are a real problem. You'll see it instantly when you remove a pin. The ends are gray, where it came in contact with the bush. This will include pins the jacks, hammer flanges, wippens, and damper flanges. Unless you can convince the customer to repin the entire action, you'll be going back constantly.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-20-2017 14:31
    Samick had a bad phase with action centers just like Steinway, multiple times, not just teflon, but verdigris.

    This could even be an argument against buying a piano as a piece of furniture. The ones who used the piano insightfully were able to make warranty claims from Samick and/or the dealer in a case like this. Too late now. Problem fixed at the factory as a result years ago. Not that new problems haven't since appeared.

    Like Wim claimed, you need to include damper lever repinning in your estimate also. Hopefully your client won't start crying. You got to yank the back action, remove all the dampers, re-regulate the dampers. That takes forever. 

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-20-2017 17:31
    Good grief! Have you inspected this piano? How do you know the damper lever centers need repining? They work fine. Hammer flange centers are free as a bird. I still need to check the wippen centers (flange and rep levers).

    As I stated before, I've run into the Samick center pin plating problems before. My observations have been that the problems may or may not include all the action centers. But of course, one always needs to inspect and evaluate.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    President
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-20-2017 17:48
    Sorry Terrence,

    Couldn't tell what you know or your client. Didn't explain how to do anything for that reason. 

    There is a string along approach, and a do more than necessary immediately approach, with anything technical. I take cars to the dealer of the same make sometimes and pay for full diagnostics just to know all the problems or potential problems, and find a backyard mechanic to do little as possible to the same car, sometimes. 

    For me, I could never make a diagnosis without a piano degree, particularly with a piano that rarely gets used by the client. I find mine indispensable in making such judgments. It made more sense for an understanding of piano technology, to get a degree in piano performance after being a shop monkey as a teenager, than to go to a trade school, for this reason. Wouldn't be the first time I am wrong, if I am, about this conclusion, which I still hold to. I leave my car at the mechanic, go home, and hope they test drive it if there is a problem.

    As my composition teacher once claimed, "Less is more!" 

    To what James explained, a hefty estimate might be a great way out of this mess. You never know, you might be unpleasantly surprised!

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-20-2017 21:11
    Hi Benjamin. I'm trying to make sense out of your post - but I really just don't understand.

    "For me, I could never make a diagnosis without a piano degree, particularly with a piano that rarely gets used by the client."

    I don't understand where you are going with the statement above.

    "I find mine indispensable in making such judgments. It made more sense for an understanding of piano technology, to get a degree in piano performance after being a shop monkey as a teenager, than to go to a trade school, for this reason."

    Okay. What judgments are you referring to?

    "Wouldn't be the first time I am wrong, if I am, about this conclusion, which I still hold to." 

    What conclusion are your referring to?

    "I leave my car at the mechanic, go home, and hope they test drive it if there is a problem."

    ???

    "As my composition teacher once claimed, "Less is more!"'

    ???

    "To what James explained, a hefty estimate might be a great way out of this mess."

    What mess are you referring to? I have an interesting project - it is not a mess. FWIW, I told her it hopefully would be much less, but that it could be up to $2K to fix everything.

    "You never know, you might be unpleasantly surprised!"

    I really don't like surprises with piano projects. Not sure exactly what you mean by that.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    President
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-21-2017 01:48
    Terrence,

    As for your series quotes, this inquiry into my statements is a series of rhetorical questions.

    The answer is not that you don't know what I am talking about. It is that I don't what I am talking about.

    As I've stated before, I can't answer a rhetorical question. I'll take a walk in the woods when I get a chance and see if I can arrive at an answer.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-20-2017 18:30
    It's been my experience with the Samick "Asian flu" center pins that in some pianos subjected to heavy use, every pin in both the action and the back action will need repinning, but with others, only certain parts will fail. So, if many jacks are seizing up, but the hammers and damper centers are free, it may only be the jacks.

    I'm glad to hear that the factory has fixed the problem, but I'll believe it when I see it. I still find seizing centers on fairly young Samick products. Does anyone know when this improvement took place?

    As for the varying key dip, when I read the description, an inner voice said "check the key bedding carefully."

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-20-2017 18:40
    Susan,
    I've been working with Samick dealers recently, and finding other problems than action centers. 1994 is fairly new in the life of a piano, don't you think? I will admit I could be accused of playing the race card here, before, now, here and elsewhere.

    So I guess because of vertigris and teflon action centers, New York Steinway has a perrenial action center problem. Had a blast while my friends played outside all summer working in a basement with no windows under phosphorescent lights repinning and bushing damper racks with teflon bushings all day.

    Is there a way to get to the damper rack center pins without removing all the dampers and the back action, then returning the dampers and the rack? If one is bad, you pretty much need to do all of them. There is no way of isolating bad damper rack action centers and fixing those only. 

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-20-2017 21:14
    "I will admit I could be accused of playing the race card here, before, now, here and elsewhere."

    What on earth are you talking about: "playing the race card..."?

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    President
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-21-2017 01:40
    It concerns me this was becoming a bash the Asian piano thing. Perhaps you should pay closer attention to the replies of others than I. I have suggested before this has something to do with racism, not only the quality of pianos, tools, accessories, and other piano related Eastern products. For that some would use a common colloquialism, "Playing the race card."

    My question for all.

    Why did my first piano teacher in college claim 1 in 3 Steinways are good and 1 in 5 Baldwins are good? Because he had not found the right piano tech yet? Because he lacks the perception competent piano techs have and the musicians that know them? Or was he more perceptive than us in being educated to make music with the piano? Why does every single Samick need to be great to be as good as a piano built in the West? Have you not just insisted not all Samicks have action center problems?

    Was my well educated piano instructor with a PhD in piano just ignorant in not realizing how the other 2 out of 3 Steinways and the other 4 out of 5 Baldwins could be turned to gold with the magic touch of a Caucasian piano tech? This is more than trying to create politically correct dialogue in the Occident. No doubt, the Orient has been proven to be one of the most hostile parts of the world where multiculturalism is concerned. 

    I recently saw a bigger problem than freezing action centers in a Samick. Something unprecedented in 30 years of working and playng on new pianos not only for dealers, but schools and music festivals. A new Samick with rusty strings. That does not mean every Samick is bad, anymore than 1 in 3 or 5 good pianos means that every Steinway or Baldwin is good. Just trying to navigate through the discussion and attempting to create perspective about the miraculous work of Western piano manufacturers from someone I suspect plays better than you.

    Whatever the case, there is nothing I would rather see produced by any Eastern country than a good piano, and really hate to think Samick bashing had anything to do with what could be aging string on a new Samick. 

    But for the price, just this past week, I told a client to sell his Steinway and recommended he find an inexpensive new Asian one. He won't get a warranty from the one that restores it. If you provide one let me know, I might give you a reference in such a case, but if your prices are like those of the factory, probably will make the same recommendation.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-21-2017 00:25
    Hi Terry. Nice to hear from you and I hope things are well. Check that the stack feet are firmly grounded as some have suggested, but some of what you describe sounds like classic expanding action brackets syndrome.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-21-2017 02:43
    I like teasers, Farrell - go for it! There have been plenty of them on this forum! Let's hear how you make out and just what it is that's 'teasing'!          Michael    UK





  • 22.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-21-2017 02:51
    Straight outta the box Mike I swear. I don't know if they were storing the strings underwater or what...

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Member
    Posted 05-21-2017 14:02
    Benjamin.. could you elaborate on the rusty strings in a new Samick ? Was the rust on wound strings, plain steel or both ?
    Any other evidence of water damage such as staining or glue joint failure ? Could the piano have been in poor storage , transport or handling or is it traceable back to the factory or a bad batch of strings ?

    I do not see that many Samicks here but they do show up mainly in homes of people who relocate. One of the schools in our District has two but they are not new and I have never noticed rust in them. Its probably a good thing for techs to be aware of and be on the alert.

    Given the high humidity levels we have in our area it would not take too long for a piano to get rust given the right conditions.
    Lack of air conditioning for an extended amount of time (usually a week or two)  can be very bad.  I have seen Yamahas and Steinways destroyed by the combination of high humidity and ocean air. I heard that when automobiles and pianos first came here on container ships they had horrible rust issues. The remedy was to vaccum bag or otherwise seal off the containers using dessicants and moisture control.

    I certainly hope there are very few of these pianos with a rusty string issue out of the box...

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-21-2017 16:06
    James and company,

    I only saw this one time and am considering it an isolated incident. I wouldn't panic until someone else sees it. I don't know the stringing method used by Samick at the factory, but from the looks of it somebody took off the gloves on a humid sweaty day. That is my best guess from what I saw, but don't think it is leading to a conversation with the sales rep for Samick in the area, so I cannot give a great deal of information. Even factories need to be reminded that string has a shelf life, and when production is down, it gets closer to the end of it.   

    To the rest of the discussion, I like the originality of scale in some Samick piano products that I've seen. I find it honorable not to emulate others copyright patent or not, though I don't see a whole lot of the European products. Furthermore it is natural that any company would make a mistake about action centers. This is another thing, like voicing, where I have experienced a whole host of opinion, on materials, solvents, how free to make them, and how to go about it. But the last thing you want is the noise free vibration causes when not properly dampened by the bushing, which Samick certainly avoided to a fault. The company has a warranty, and it is an assumption that the company would rectify the problem fairly quickly when fulfilling that.   

    I would hate to see an action bracket problem develop like Young Chang had. And we cannot forget that Samick is a player in the treasured Steinway tradition, as a 32% shareholder.  

    Terrence. Please don't be insulted. The guys around here who don't play amaze me. I don't know how they do it. Ever listen to Car Talk on NPR?
    Car Talk
    Cartalk remove preview
    Car Talk
    Cartalk.com is a production of Tappet Brothers LLC d/b/a Dewey, Cheetham and Howe. Contents © 2017 Tappet Brothers LLC. CAR TALK, DEWEY, CHEETHAM & HOWE, SHAMELESS COMMERCE, WARPED DISCS, and CLICK AND CLACK are registered trademarks of Tappet Brothers LLC.
    View this on Cartalk >
     
     I admit the metaphor "Driving a car is playing a piano" does not sound very poetic. Sometimes I am indirect and tend to go on tangents. I did not mean to deviate from the subject too much. You probably know Click and Clack, as radio show hosts, go about trying to guess what the problem is with a car by the description and sound effects that the caller makes. They can't drive the car, just like some piano mechanics can't play the piano, but nonetheless figure out the problem without driving it. That is all I meant. It can be done. I just don't know how as that playing and diagnosing the piano always went together for me. I admit also that comparing us to car mechanics might not be sophisticated enough for some people.

    The expression "less is more," on the other hand, is almost a platitude. The reason my composition teacher used it was probably my focus on orchestration at the time. He was trying to convince me to compose chamber music, which of course, requires less people. His composition teacher probably taught him the lesson in his own experience and compositions by stumbling through the composition of "Gurre-Lieder" and its Romantic proportions. I cannot think of a more succinct summation of the criticism composer and music critic Robert Schummann and his wife pianist Clara proffered of Liszt than "less is more." The political and philosophical aspect of romanticism, also could be criticized with the phrase. If we want Recitative, we want singing less like music, and more like talking. If we want Aria, we want singing less like talking, and more like music. Less is more. It depicts the beauty we find in, say the Taklamakan desert, opposed to the Tian Shan Mountains along the Silk Road. The desert or plains can reveal a beauty so much more powerful than lush mountains with so much less. So sometimes doing less to the piano, i.e., replacing fewer action centers, is more. The less you move a tuning pin the more stable the tuning will be.

    As for making making hefty estimates, and unpleasant surprises, kind of just a joke about when clients say yes, and you got better things to do. It can affect mine, I admit. This has happened to me trying to rectify action center problems just like I am describing. Sorry I could not more directly address your dilemma, and made poor assumptions.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-22-2017 09:36
    Just for accuracy sake, Samick is not a shareholder in Steinway any longer. In fact, it's not publicly traded anymore. The company is owned wholly by John Paulson. Samick was the company he was bidding against.

    ------------------------------
    Charles Rempel

    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-22-2017 10:36
    Charles Rempel,

    Thanks for the information Charles. You me
    everything on the internet is not true?

    GOOGLE Samick. Click Wikipedia entry for it. FIRST PAGE STATUS ¿¡¿ If you have the time you might want to edit Wikipedia on that for Samick. I tried to edit the Steinway entry about incorrect information concerning the Steinway Academy right before the information you provided and failed, so I won't waste my time.

    Samick - Wikipedia
    Wikipedia remove preview
    Samick - Wikipedia
    Samick Musical Instruments Co., Ltd. ( KRX: 002450, also known as Samick), founded 1958, is one of the world's largest musical instrument manufacturers and an owner of shares in several musical instrument manufacturing companies.
    View this on Wikipedia >



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-23-2017 09:10
    Billionaire John Paulson bought Steinway....beat out Samick bid....

    a simple google search is all that's needed....Wiki is obviously
    needs updating....(good luck with that!)...

    Here from 2013....


    and from 2016....


    If there are further transactions, please correct me....

    (You can't go by Wiki....I run across errors from time to time there)....

    Richard





  • 28.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-23-2017 10:01
    Richard,

    What I don't understand is how google plays the victim in all of this as those being deceived. That makes you a chump, not a victim. Google is the malefactor here, not the victim. Wikipedia by initially making these assertions is the victim of a medium google, the malefactor unwilling to discriminate between information provided by Wikipedia itself about both parties, Steinway and Samick, and determine what actually is the very case in the matter.  

    The fault is not with Wikipedia but Google. The information is being made available by google or whatever other search engine you are using. Google the majority of the time. The potential for adding intent to guilt for making false assertions only is augmented when the information is being passed by a party from which it did not originate, to deceive, when not critically evaluating the content of the information before being a source of media in which something instead of being claimed once in one particular place to one particular person at one particular time about Samick on the first page of a Samick search on google according to that one party, Wikipedia, is instead being claimed at every particular place on earth with a web connection and to all aliens who have hacked the system from their own planet, to every particular person and alien, at every particular time until edited. 

    In being a vehicle for the transmitting of information, it is the responsibility of the person delivering that information to not be deceived. This is not occidental or oriental. Part of navigating through life as a moral, rational being, or even a beast in some cases, is to evade deception.

    In the West, ἀλήθεια, ας, ἡ, the greek word for truth, Koinonia, is inseparable from reality as a possibility. Truth as a concept must be concatenated with reality, and transcends anything that might be enunciated in any language. To claim something is the truth when somebody else speaks this to you in word or speech, and for it not to coincide with reality, is as good as a bold faced lie with intent to deceive by not evaluating the truth of that assertion rigorously. This is what is so wrong about Google.

    In the East, though in my opinion, much more credence to a Worldview is galvanized by recognizing the potential for illusion in the world for such a social phenomenon as this and its very reason, it is nonetheless as rigorously demanded that we see things as they are, not as some wish them to be or mistake them for being. Right is a way of being, not speaking, to see things as they are, and our inability to do this is, is part of the illusion Easterners see in the world to my way of thinking. To conceal what is concealed by the Samick entry on Wikipedia is nothing until a search engine makes it possible to conceal, that Samick does not have a 32% share in Steinway. To conceal this is wrong, but for the most part that wrong is to be attributed to Google, not Wikipedia, who independently, does not have the ability to conceal this.  

    Comparatively speaking, what Wikipedia asserted is absolutely nothing until a search engine like google makes it possible. It is not Wikipedia that is impossible to vindicate for this error, therefore. It is Google.   


    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-23-2017 14:52
    The Wikipedia entry was not false as far as it went. It was simply incomplete. It seems to have been updated with the link provided by Mr Adkins being cited as a reference. Google is also not to blame. Their algorithm just seeks out what you ask it to. Robots just follow their programing. The human inquiring must take responsibility to separate fact from fiction. This is true whether one is following Kant or Lao Tzu.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-23-2017 17:45
    Karl,

    You may have heard of a movement in the Occident, East of the Atlantic, for "The right to be forgotten."[i]

    The origins of this conflict are summarized by Epic with the conclusion that Google is responsible for its content, not those furnishing Google with the content, which Google distributes in the public, even across state lines:

    In 2010 Mario Costeja González, filed a complaint with the Agencia Española de Protección de Datos (AEDP), the Spanish Data Protection Agency, against a local newspaper and Google Spain for claims relating to auction notices mentioning González published in 1998. The notices concerned real estate auctions held to secure repayment of González's social security debts. González contended that these pages were no longer necessary because "the attachment proceedings concerning him had been fully resolved for a number of years and that reference to them was now entirely irrelevant." He sought to have the local newspaper, La Vanguardia, remove the pages or alter them so his personal information was no longer displayed. He also sought for Google Inc. to remove the links to the articles in question so that the information no longer appeared in Google Search results.

    The AEDP dismissed the plaintiff's claims against the newspaper, but allowed those against Google.[ii]

    This judgment was upheld by the European Court of Justice, through appeal. Without going into the gory details, in cases such as this about erroneous content on Wikipedia, there is a guilty party in the dissemination of information that conceals the fact that Samick is not a shareholder in Steinway, and that guilty party is Google, not Wikipedia, even across state lines. It is hard to argue for concealment, i.e., of information indicating that Samick is no longer a shareholder in Steinway, with the euphemism, incomplete information, and against concealment, i.e., that Google has the right to distribute such incomplete content if it so chooses, at the same time.

    Google is responsible for its content. The law has application with or without intent, i.e., mens rea. Being bloody rich, fat, ignorant, and stupid pigs like Larry and Sergey, Russian or American, is no excuse.  

    [i] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten

     

    [ii] https://epic.org/privacy/right-to-be-forgotten/

     



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    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
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  • 31.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-23-2017 19:43
    Can we please get back on topic?

    Thank you.

    ------------------------------
    -Phil Bondi
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-23-2017 21:53
    Someone obviously messed this up. The first thing I think was messed up was that the angled bracket screws were inserted before the vertical ones. They may have also messed with the key frame bedding. I would suggest you take it all down to basics and build it back up. Also sounds like it has plated center pins. Good luck there.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2017 10:23
    Typically when the angled screws are tightened before the perpendicular ones the hammers catch on the backchecks on the way up to the string.

    I agree that at a minimum, pull the stack off the keyframe and start from scratch.  Seat that puppy back in it's very specific space and start checking for stresses as you tighten the screws  ......  in the right order.  I usually tighten the four outer ones first.  This assures that the stack is seated properly in the frame before tightening the inner ones.

    I agree with Phil  .........  let's keep this thread on track here.  I, for one, want to know what's the matter with this piano. 

    Lar

    ------------------------------
    Larry Fisher
    Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
    Vancouver WA
    360-256-2999
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-26-2017 13:48
    Thank you Phil!

    I bought new screws for attaching the stack to the action frame. Also had to plug a couple of the front angled holes as the screws were going in almost vertically. Now that I can tighten the screws properly and hence draw the stack brackets to the action frame, about 90% of the low key height problem disappeared. All those keys/action go through let-off now. Action is fine. Fortunately, the customer understands the wisdom of doing a complete action regulation, so I will be doing that after I get some repining done.

    Thanks for all the input.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    President
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-23-2017 03:19
    Benjamin - Clara Schumann was also a wonderful composer. Read the book by  Joan Chissell entitled 'Clara Schumann - a dedicated Spirit. What trial and tribulations she went through will have you in tears!    Michael   UK





  • 36.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-24-2017 11:03
    Michael,
    It must have been a fascinating time. The question, if you could jump on a time machine and go any particular place and time, imagine a French Salon, Liszt, Chopin, Field, alternating all night at the piano, amidst all the other nascent accoutrements only proscribed and some prescribed to-day. It was a clinic better than any school. Way higher on the list than the Western American Saloon; not sure you'd get a chance to get on the TM back there.

    Always try to get the screws back in the same hole, but never have the jig for it in the field. What is the function of an angled stack screw?

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    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2017 11:12
    The angled front stack screws allow easy access for a screwdriver.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 38.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Posted 05-24-2017 11:22
    But then you can't leave the screw in the bracket as a reference for location when removing the stack without damaging the key frame when returning it to its proper place

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    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: Strange Action Situation

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2017 13:43
    Yup, you got it.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------