Pianotech

When we arrive at the piano, it is almost always stable; out-of-tune, perhaps. but usually quite stable, especially if it has been played a lot.
As we begin to move the pitch, first we destabilize the string, then we move the pitch.
Now our job is just to put it back like it was before we moved it, but at the new pitch, i.e. let go of the instability we put in while moving the string.
Easy. yes?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Is this some kind of Koan?
:-)

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-24-2017 23:32
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

When we arrive at the piano, it is almost always stabile; out-of-tune, perhaps. but usually quite stabile, especially if it has been played a lot.
As we begin to move the pitch, first we destabilize the string, then we move the pitch.
Now our job is just to put it back like it was before we moved it, but at the new pitch, i.e. let go of the instability we put in while moving the string.
Easy. yes?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Hi, Ed

Well, how easy it is probably depends on how one goes about it.

First, how well can you avoid the destabilization while still moving the pitch?

Second, instead of using fancy hand work with analysis of flagpoling, pin bending, twist in the pinblock, etc., to reverse whatever "English" was put on the pin, how about minimizing the "English" by using abrupt impact instead of slow pull?

Third, let the wire find its new equilibrium by letting it go back out a little bit -- then come back after tuning a different part of the piano, and tune it again, with extremely minimal motion and firm but not brutal blows. Repeat ad libitum until it is stable in its new place. (i.e., multiple passes with as small adjustments as possible, and the last pass should be a tiny fraction of a beat.)

Well, that's my self-encouraging blather about the process, anyway.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-24-2017 23:32
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

When we arrive at the piano, it is almost always stabile; out-of-tune, perhaps. but usually quite stabile, especially if it has been played a lot.
As we begin to move the pitch, first we destabilize the string, then we move the pitch.
Now our job is just to put it back like it was before we moved it, but at the new pitch, i.e. let go of the instability we put in while moving the string.
Easy. yes?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Susan,

In general I would tend to agree with you!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 02:00
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Tuning Stability

Hi, Ed

Well, how easy it is probably depends on how one goes about it.

First, how well can you avoid the destabilization while still moving the pitch?

Second, instead of using fancy hand work with analysis of flagpoling, pin bending, twist in the pinblock, etc., to reverse whatever "English" was put on the pin, how about minimizing the "English" by using abrupt impact instead of slow pull?

Third, let the wire find its new equilibrium by letting it go back out a little bit -- then come back after tuning a different part of the piano, and tune it again, with extremely minimal motion and firm but not brutal blows. Repeat ad libitum until it is stable in its new place. (i.e., multiple passes with as small adjustments as possible, and the last pass should be a tiny fraction of a beat.)

Well, that's my self-encouraging blather about the process, anyway.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 09-24-2017 23:32
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

When we arrive at the piano, it is almost always stabile; out-of-tune, perhaps. but usually quite stabile, especially if it has been played a lot.
As we begin to move the pitch, first we destabilize the string, then we move the pitch.
Now our job is just to put it back like it was before we moved it, but at the new pitch, i.e. let go of the instability we put in while moving the string.
Easy. yes?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Raising pitch 8-10 cents, using an ETD that calculates an overpull value:
I would like to get each string in its new position with as few movements as possible.
As I begin to "load" the tuning lever, I feel the springy stress building in the pin and front string length, but the pitch has not moved.
[If I release now, the spring releases and the string stays stable at its original pitch, which has not moved.]
I add more effort to the lever, and the string begins to render and the pitch rises.
The ETD display changes as the pitch rises.
When it has just passed "right" and is begining to go "sharp" I release the tension I'm holding in the lever, and the pitch display drops a little. In my release I'm trying to feel the "undoing" of the destabilizing stress I needed to make before the string began to render.
Now the same thing happens as I tune the unisons by ear: move up to clarity, then a little bit of sizzle. then settle back.
This happens rather quickly. I would not call it a slow pull.
Tiny corrections, if needed,  I now make by "nudge" or "lift and nudge."
But alas! where has my simple description gone?
Dan Levitan says it's really much easier to do than it is to talk about or think about.
Our hands and brains make a simple synthesis...until we try to put it into words.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 08:29
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Tuning Stability

Susan,

In general I would tend to agree with you!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 02:00
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Tuning Stability

Hi, Ed

Well, how easy it is probably depends on how one goes about it.

First, how well can you avoid the destabilization while still moving the pitch?

Second, instead of using fancy hand work with analysis of flagpoling, pin bending, twist in the pinblock, etc., to reverse whatever "English" was put on the pin, how about minimizing the "English" by using abrupt impact instead of slow pull?

Third, let the wire find its new equilibrium by letting it go back out a little bit -- then come back after tuning a different part of the piano, and tune it again, with extremely minimal motion and firm but not brutal blows. Repeat ad libitum until it is stable in its new place. (i.e., multiple passes with as small adjustments as possible, and the last pass should be a tiny fraction of a beat.)

Well, that's my self-encouraging blather about the process, anyway.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 09-24-2017 23:32
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

When we arrive at the piano, it is almost always stabile; out-of-tune, perhaps. but usually quite stabile, especially if it has been played a lot.
As we begin to move the pitch, first we destabilize the string, then we move the pitch.
Now our job is just to put it back like it was before we moved it, but at the new pitch, i.e. let go of the instability we put in while moving the string.
Easy. yes?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

I agree with Susan's analysis. It seems to me that in the last few months that I've used an impact lever on verticals, the tuning have been more stable per amount of pitch changed. I can do a 15 cent pitch raise and not really have any unisons fall out afterwards. (Of course, another pass is still necessary for a fine tuning.) Of course, the pitch still changes due to the soundboard shifting, but it kind of all shifts together now, whereas before not only would my pitch shift, but my unisons would mostly go out as well. I can only attribute it to switching to an impact style of tuning.

And if this sounds like a commercial, so be it! I have been very pleased with impact tuning, and wondering why I didn't switch before.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 10:14
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

Raising pitch 8-10 cents, using an ETD that calculates an overpull value:
I would like to get each string in its new position with as few movements as possible.
As I begin to "load" the tuning lever, I feel the springy stress building in the pin and front string length, but the pitch has not moved.
[If I release now, the spring releases and the string stays stabile at its original pitch, which has not moved.]
I add more effort to the lever, and the string begins to render and the pitch rises.
The ETD display changes as the pitch rises.
When it has just passed "right" and is begining to go "sharp" I release the tension I'm holding in the lever, and the pitch display drops a little. In my release I'm trying to feel the "undoing" of the destabilizing stress I needed to make before the string began to render.
Now the same thing happens as I tune the unisons by ear: move up to clarity, then a little bit of sizzle. then settle back.
This happens rather quickly. I would not call it a slow pull.
Tiny corrections, if needed,  I now make by "nudge" or "lift and nudge."
But alas! where has my simple description gone?
Dan Levitan says it's really much easier to do than it is to talk about or think about.
Our hands and brains make a simple synthesis...until we try to put it into words.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 08:29
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Tuning Stability

Susan,

In general I would tend to agree with you!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 02:00
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Tuning Stability

Hi, Ed

Well, how easy it is probably depends on how one goes about it.

First, how well can you avoid the destabilization while still moving the pitch?

Second, instead of using fancy hand work with analysis of flagpoling, pin bending, twist in the pinblock, etc., to reverse whatever "English" was put on the pin, how about minimizing the "English" by using abrupt impact instead of slow pull?

Third, let the wire find its new equilibrium by letting it go back out a little bit -- then come back after tuning a different part of the piano, and tune it again, with extremely minimal motion and firm but not brutal blows. Repeat ad libitum until it is stable in its new place. (i.e., multiple passes with as small adjustments as possible, and the last pass should be a tiny fraction of a beat.)

Well, that's my self-encouraging blather about the process, anyway.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 09-24-2017 23:32
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

When we arrive at the piano, it is almost always stabile; out-of-tune, perhaps. but usually quite stabile, especially if it has been played a lot.
As we begin to move the pitch, first we destabilize the string, then we move the pitch.
Now our job is just to put it back like it was before we moved it, but at the new pitch, i.e. let go of the instability we put in while moving the string.
Easy. yes?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Along a different yet similar track, why are certain parts of the piano radically out of tune, while others tend to remain in tune?

Example:

One of my clients has an "Art Console" (aka, painted console), that's mostly stable - except for in the center octave. At the six month interval, most of the piano is about 2 - 5 cents off, which is normal for my area. However, C4 to C5 is generally way off, in the range of 8 to 12 cents off.  There's no visible damage to the bridges, soundboard, pin block, etc, in that area, and the entire piano is evidently used, both by signs of even wear and the music that's left on the piano when I get there. Any ideas why the radical difference?

The only other time I've seen this is for the military chapel for which I tune. The Yamaha semi-concert is always out of tune noticeably in the A4 to A5 range. Obviously it's a church piano and is subject to such use and abuse, but any ideas why these pianos tend to be way out in only one octave, while only a little out throughout the rest of the piano?

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 12:37
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: Tuning Stability

I agree with Susan's analysis. It seems to me that in the last few months that I've used an impact lever on verticals, the tuning have been more stable per amount of pitch changed. I can do a 15 cent pitch raise and not really have any unisons fall out afterwards. (Of course, another pass is still necessary for a fine tuning.) Of course, the pitch still changes due to the soundboard shifting, but it kind of all shifts together now, whereas before not only would my pitch shift, but my unisons would mostly go out as well. I can only attribute it to switching to an impact style of tuning.

And if this sounds like a commercial, so be it! I have been very pleased with impact tuning, and wondering why I didn't switch before.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 10:14
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

Raising pitch 8-10 cents, using an ETD that calculates an overpull value:
I would like to get each string in its new position with as few movements as possible.
As I begin to "load" the tuning lever, I feel the springy stress building in the pin and front string length, but the pitch has not moved.
[If I release now, the spring releases and the string stays stabile at its original pitch, which has not moved.]
I add more effort to the lever, and the string begins to render and the pitch rises.
The ETD display changes as the pitch rises.
When it has just passed "right" and is begining to go "sharp" I release the tension I'm holding in the lever, and the pitch display drops a little. In my release I'm trying to feel the "undoing" of the destabilizing stress I needed to make before the string began to render.
Now the same thing happens as I tune the unisons by ear: move up to clarity, then a little bit of sizzle. then settle back.
This happens rather quickly. I would not call it a slow pull.
Tiny corrections, if needed,  I now make by "nudge" or "lift and nudge."
But alas! where has my simple description gone?
Dan Levitan says it's really much easier to do than it is to talk about or think about.
Our hands and brains make a simple synthesis...until we try to put it into words.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 08:29
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Tuning Stability

Susan,

In general I would tend to agree with you!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 02:00
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Tuning Stability

Hi, Ed

Well, how easy it is probably depends on how one goes about it.

First, how well can you avoid the destabilization while still moving the pitch?

Second, instead of using fancy hand work with analysis of flagpoling, pin bending, twist in the pinblock, etc., to reverse whatever "English" was put on the pin, how about minimizing the "English" by using abrupt impact instead of slow pull?

Third, let the wire find its new equilibrium by letting it go back out a little bit -- then come back after tuning a different part of the piano, and tune it again, with extremely minimal motion and firm but not brutal blows. Repeat ad libitum until it is stable in its new place. (i.e., multiple passes with as small adjustments as possible, and the last pass should be a tiny fraction of a beat.)

Well, that's my self-encouraging blather about the process, anyway.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 09-24-2017 23:32
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

When we arrive at the piano, it is almost always stabile; out-of-tune, perhaps. but usually quite stabile, especially if it has been played a lot.
As we begin to move the pitch, first we destabilize the string, then we move the pitch.
Now our job is just to put it back like it was before we moved it, but at the new pitch, i.e. let go of the instability we put in while moving the string.
Easy. yes?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Benjamin,

My first guess is that there is a strut there in that octave. If so, that changes the interaction between the soundboard and frame as the humidity changes. I have experienced the same sort of thing.

Second guess is extremely uneven downbearing. Very hard to pin it down.

The first thing I would recommend to the owner is a humidity control system which would minimize the changes taking place, and improve their long term enjoyment of in-tuneness. ☺

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 12:51
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: Tuning Stability

Along a different yet similar track, why are certain parts of the piano radically out of tune, while others tend to remain in tune?

Example:

One of my clients has an "Art Console" (aka, painted console), that's mostly stable - except for in the center octave. At the six month interval, most of the piano is about 2 - 5 cents off, which is normal for my area. However, C4 to C5 is generally way off, in the range of 8 to 12 cents off.  There's no visible damage to the bridges, soundboard, pin block, etc, in that area, and the entire piano is evidently used, both by signs of even wear and the music that's left on the piano when I get there. Any ideas why the radical difference?

The only other time I've seen this is for the military chapel for which I tune. The Yamaha semi-concert is always out of tune noticeably in the A4 to A5 range. Obviously it's a church piano and is subject to such use and abuse, but any ideas why these pianos tend to be way out in only one octave, while only a little out throughout the rest of the piano?

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 12:37
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: Tuning Stability

I agree with Susan's analysis. It seems to me that in the last few months that I've used an impact lever on verticals, the tuning have been more stable per amount of pitch changed. I can do a 15 cent pitch raise and not really have any unisons fall out afterwards. (Of course, another pass is still necessary for a fine tuning.) Of course, the pitch still changes due to the soundboard shifting, but it kind of all shifts together now, whereas before not only would my pitch shift, but my unisons would mostly go out as well. I can only attribute it to switching to an impact style of tuning.

And if this sounds like a commercial, so be it! I have been very pleased with impact tuning, and wondering why I didn't switch before.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 10:14
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

Raising pitch 8-10 cents, using an ETD that calculates an overpull value:
I would like to get each string in its new position with as few movements as possible.
As I begin to "load" the tuning lever, I feel the springy stress building in the pin and front string length, but the pitch has not moved.
[If I release now, the spring releases and the string stays stabile at its original pitch, which has not moved.]
I add more effort to the lever, and the string begins to render and the pitch rises.
The ETD display changes as the pitch rises.
When it has just passed "right" and is begining to go "sharp" I release the tension I'm holding in the lever, and the pitch display drops a little. In my release I'm trying to feel the "undoing" of the destabilizing stress I needed to make before the string began to render.
Now the same thing happens as I tune the unisons by ear: move up to clarity, then a little bit of sizzle. then settle back.
This happens rather quickly. I would not call it a slow pull.
Tiny corrections, if needed,  I now make by "nudge" or "lift and nudge."
But alas! where has my simple description gone?
Dan Levitan says it's really much easier to do than it is to talk about or think about.
Our hands and brains make a simple synthesis...until we try to put it into words.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 08:29
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Tuning Stability

Susan,

In general I would tend to agree with you!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 02:00
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Tuning Stability

Hi, Ed

Well, how easy it is probably depends on how one goes about it.

First, how well can you avoid the destabilization while still moving the pitch?

Second, instead of using fancy hand work with analysis of flagpoling, pin bending, twist in the pinblock, etc., to reverse whatever "English" was put on the pin, how about minimizing the "English" by using abrupt impact instead of slow pull?

Third, let the wire find its new equilibrium by letting it go back out a little bit -- then come back after tuning a different part of the piano, and tune it again, with extremely minimal motion and firm but not brutal blows. Repeat ad libitum until it is stable in its new place. (i.e., multiple passes with as small adjustments as possible, and the last pass should be a tiny fraction of a beat.)

Well, that's my self-encouraging blather about the process, anyway.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 09-24-2017 23:32
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

When we arrive at the piano, it is almost always stabile; out-of-tune, perhaps. but usually quite stabile, especially if it has been played a lot.
As we begin to move the pitch, first we destabilize the string, then we move the pitch.
Now our job is just to put it back like it was before we moved it, but at the new pitch, i.e. let go of the instability we put in while moving the string.
Easy. yes?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Hi, Benjamin

I have no idea why you have observed two pianos shifting around A4 to A5. it's been my experience that with a change of season or humidity, it's the tenor which will shift, which makes both the treble and the bass sound out of tune. After a pitch raise, the biggest sag in response usually is octave 5 up toward octave 6, where the string length is fairly short but the bridge is out in the middle of the board.

I would inspect the plate very carefully ... but why two pianos would do the same thing, I don't know. .

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 12:51
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: Tuning Stability

Along a different yet similar track, why are certain parts of the piano radically out of tune, while others tend to remain in tune?

Example:

One of my clients has an "Art Console" (aka, painted console), that's mostly stable - except for in the center octave. At the six month interval, most of the piano is about 2 - 5 cents off, which is normal for my area. However, C4 to C5 is generally way off, in the range of 8 to 12 cents off.  There's no visible damage to the bridges, soundboard, pin block, etc, in that area, and the entire piano is evidently used, both by signs of even wear and the music that's left on the piano when I get there. Any ideas why the radical difference?

The only other time I've seen this is for the military chapel for which I tune. The Yamaha semi-concert is always out of tune noticeably in the A4 to A5 range. Obviously it's a church piano and is subject to such use and abuse, but any ideas why these pianos tend to be way out in only one octave, while only a little out throughout the rest of the piano?

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 12:37
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: Tuning Stability

I agree with Susan's analysis. It seems to me that in the last few months that I've used an impact lever on verticals, the tuning have been more stable per amount of pitch changed. I can do a 15 cent pitch raise and not really have any unisons fall out afterwards. (Of course, another pass is still necessary for a fine tuning.) Of course, the pitch still changes due to the soundboard shifting, but it kind of all shifts together now, whereas before not only would my pitch shift, but my unisons would mostly go out as well. I can only attribute it to switching to an impact style of tuning.

And if this sounds like a commercial, so be it! I have been very pleased with impact tuning, and wondering why I didn't switch before.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 10:14
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

Raising pitch 8-10 cents, using an ETD that calculates an overpull value:
I would like to get each string in its new position with as few movements as possible.
As I begin to "load" the tuning lever, I feel the springy stress building in the pin and front string length, but the pitch has not moved.
[If I release now, the spring releases and the string stays stabile at its original pitch, which has not moved.]
I add more effort to the lever, and the string begins to render and the pitch rises.
The ETD display changes as the pitch rises.
When it has just passed "right" and is begining to go "sharp" I release the tension I'm holding in the lever, and the pitch display drops a little. In my release I'm trying to feel the "undoing" of the destabilizing stress I needed to make before the string began to render.
Now the same thing happens as I tune the unisons by ear: move up to clarity, then a little bit of sizzle. then settle back.
This happens rather quickly. I would not call it a slow pull.
Tiny corrections, if needed,  I now make by "nudge" or "lift and nudge."
But alas! where has my simple description gone?
Dan Levitan says it's really much easier to do than it is to talk about or think about.
Our hands and brains make a simple synthesis...until we try to put it into words.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 08:29
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Tuning Stability

Susan,

In general I would tend to agree with you!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 02:00
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Tuning Stability

Hi, Ed

Well, how easy it is probably depends on how one goes about it.

First, how well can you avoid the destabilization while still moving the pitch?

Second, instead of using fancy hand work with analysis of flagpoling, pin bending, twist in the pinblock, etc., to reverse whatever "English" was put on the pin, how about minimizing the "English" by using abrupt impact instead of slow pull?

Third, let the wire find its new equilibrium by letting it go back out a little bit -- then come back after tuning a different part of the piano, and tune it again, with extremely minimal motion and firm but not brutal blows. Repeat ad libitum until it is stable in its new place. (i.e., multiple passes with as small adjustments as possible, and the last pass should be a tiny fraction of a beat.)

Well, that's my self-encouraging blather about the process, anyway.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 09-24-2017 23:32
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

When we arrive at the piano, it is almost always stabile; out-of-tune, perhaps. but usually quite stabile, especially if it has been played a lot.
As we begin to move the pitch, first we destabilize the string, then we move the pitch.
Now our job is just to put it back like it was before we moved it, but at the new pitch, i.e. let go of the instability we put in while moving the string.
Easy. yes?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Hi, Ed

I'm sure we all do the nudge, etc., so much that we don't think about it most of the time.

As for a simple motion, I don't think you will get faster rendering with less collateral distortion than a simple slap out toward the end of an extension tuning lever placed on the tuning pin at about "2 o'clock". I also find that when doing a pitch raise with horribly tight tuning pins, a good whack (or a series of smaller whacks) is the easiest physically.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 10:14
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

Raising pitch 8-10 cents, using an ETD that calculates an overpull value:
I would like to get each string in its new position with as few movements as possible.
As I begin to "load" the tuning lever, I feel the springy stress building in the pin and front string length, but the pitch has not moved.
[If I release now, the spring releases and the string stays stabile at its original pitch, which has not moved.]
I add more effort to the lever, and the string begins to render and the pitch rises.
The ETD display changes as the pitch rises.
When it has just passed "right" and is begining to go "sharp" I release the tension I'm holding in the lever, and the pitch display drops a little. In my release I'm trying to feel the "undoing" of the destabilizing stress I needed to make before the string began to render.
Now the same thing happens as I tune the unisons by ear: move up to clarity, then a little bit of sizzle. then settle back.
This happens rather quickly. I would not call it a slow pull.
Tiny corrections, if needed,  I now make by "nudge" or "lift and nudge."
But alas! where has my simple description gone?
Dan Levitan says it's really much easier to do than it is to talk about or think about.
Our hands and brains make a simple synthesis...until we try to put it into words.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 08:29
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Tuning Stability

Susan,

In general I would tend to agree with you!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 02:00
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Tuning Stability

Hi, Ed

Well, how easy it is probably depends on how one goes about it.

First, how well can you avoid the destabilization while still moving the pitch?

Second, instead of using fancy hand work with analysis of flagpoling, pin bending, twist in the pinblock, etc., to reverse whatever "English" was put on the pin, how about minimizing the "English" by using abrupt impact instead of slow pull?

Third, let the wire find its new equilibrium by letting it go back out a little bit -- then come back after tuning a different part of the piano, and tune it again, with extremely minimal motion and firm but not brutal blows. Repeat ad libitum until it is stable in its new place. (i.e., multiple passes with as small adjustments as possible, and the last pass should be a tiny fraction of a beat.)

Well, that's my self-encouraging blather about the process, anyway.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 09-24-2017 23:32
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

When we arrive at the piano, it is almost always stabile; out-of-tune, perhaps. but usually quite stabile, especially if it has been played a lot.
As we begin to move the pitch, first we destabilize the string, then we move the pitch.
Now our job is just to put it back like it was before we moved it, but at the new pitch, i.e. let go of the instability we put in while moving the string.
Easy. yes?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Ok Tuning Gurus: 
Answer this:

When I raise pitch, I tune the high section left-middle-right with my papps mute. Why, after returning to fine-tune, does the right string almost always go sharp? Often 10-15 cents. What in the piano could be causing this? Generally the worst in the 6th-7th octaves.


------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 16:30
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Tuning Stability

Hi, Ed

I'm sure we all do the nudge, etc., so much that we don't think about it most of the time.

As for a simple motion, I don't think you will get faster rendering with less collateral distortion than a simple slap out toward the end of an extension tuning lever placed on the tuning pin at about "2 o'clock". I also find that when doing a pitch raise with horribly tight tuning pins, a good whack (or a series of smaller whacks) is the easiest physically.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 10:14
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

Raising pitch 8-10 cents, using an ETD that calculates an overpull value:
I would like to get each string in its new position with as few movements as possible.
As I begin to "load" the tuning lever, I feel the springy stress building in the pin and front string length, but the pitch has not moved.
[If I release now, the spring releases and the string stays stabile at its original pitch, which has not moved.]
I add more effort to the lever, and the string begins to render and the pitch rises.
The ETD display changes as the pitch rises.
When it has just passed "right" and is begining to go "sharp" I release the tension I'm holding in the lever, and the pitch display drops a little. In my release I'm trying to feel the "undoing" of the destabilizing stress I needed to make before the string began to render.
Now the same thing happens as I tune the unisons by ear: move up to clarity, then a little bit of sizzle. then settle back.
This happens rather quickly. I would not call it a slow pull.
Tiny corrections, if needed,  I now make by "nudge" or "lift and nudge."
But alas! where has my simple description gone?
Dan Levitan says it's really much easier to do than it is to talk about or think about.
Our hands and brains make a simple synthesis...until we try to put it into words.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 08:29
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Tuning Stability

Susan,

In general I would tend to agree with you!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 02:00
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Tuning Stability

Hi, Ed

Well, how easy it is probably depends on how one goes about it.

First, how well can you avoid the destabilization while still moving the pitch?

Second, instead of using fancy hand work with analysis of flagpoling, pin bending, twist in the pinblock, etc., to reverse whatever "English" was put on the pin, how about minimizing the "English" by using abrupt impact instead of slow pull?

Third, let the wire find its new equilibrium by letting it go back out a little bit -- then come back after tuning a different part of the piano, and tune it again, with extremely minimal motion and firm but not brutal blows. Repeat ad libitum until it is stable in its new place. (i.e., multiple passes with as small adjustments as possible, and the last pass should be a tiny fraction of a beat.)

Well, that's my self-encouraging blather about the process, anyway.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 09-24-2017 23:32
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

When we arrive at the piano, it is almost always stabile; out-of-tune, perhaps. but usually quite stabile, especially if it has been played a lot.
As we begin to move the pitch, first we destabilize the string, then we move the pitch.
Now our job is just to put it back like it was before we moved it, but at the new pitch, i.e. let go of the instability we put in while moving the string.
Easy. yes?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Do a little experiment, Scott. Try tuning every other note in the opposite order, then see if there is any difference between the two directions.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 16:45
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Tuning Stability

Ok Tuning Gurus:
Answer this:

When I raise pitch, I tune the high section left-middle-right with my papps mute. Why, after returning to fine-tune, does the right string almost always go sharp? Often 10-15 cents. What in the piano could be causing this? Generally the worst in the 6th-7th octaves.


------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 16:30
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Tuning Stability

Hi, Ed

I'm sure we all do the nudge, etc., so much that we don't think about it most of the time.

As for a simple motion, I don't think you will get faster rendering with less collateral distortion than a simple slap out toward the end of an extension tuning lever placed on the tuning pin at about "2 o'clock". I also find that when doing a pitch raise with horribly tight tuning pins, a good whack (or a series of smaller whacks) is the easiest physically.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 10:14
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

Raising pitch 8-10 cents, using an ETD that calculates an overpull value:
I would like to get each string in its new position with as few movements as possible.
As I begin to "load" the tuning lever, I feel the springy stress building in the pin and front string length, but the pitch has not moved.
[If I release now, the spring releases and the string stays stabile at its original pitch, which has not moved.]
I add more effort to the lever, and the string begins to render and the pitch rises.
The ETD display changes as the pitch rises.
When it has just passed "right" and is begining to go "sharp" I release the tension I'm holding in the lever, and the pitch display drops a little. In my release I'm trying to feel the "undoing" of the destabilizing stress I needed to make before the string began to render.
Now the same thing happens as I tune the unisons by ear: move up to clarity, then a little bit of sizzle. then settle back.
This happens rather quickly. I would not call it a slow pull.
Tiny corrections, if needed,  I now make by "nudge" or "lift and nudge."
But alas! where has my simple description gone?
Dan Levitan says it's really much easier to do than it is to talk about or think about.
Our hands and brains make a simple synthesis...until we try to put it into words.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 08:29
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Tuning Stability

Susan,

In general I would tend to agree with you!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 02:00
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Tuning Stability

Hi, Ed

Well, how easy it is probably depends on how one goes about it.

First, how well can you avoid the destabilization while still moving the pitch?

Second, instead of using fancy hand work with analysis of flagpoling, pin bending, twist in the pinblock, etc., to reverse whatever "English" was put on the pin, how about minimizing the "English" by using abrupt impact instead of slow pull?

Third, let the wire find its new equilibrium by letting it go back out a little bit -- then come back after tuning a different part of the piano, and tune it again, with extremely minimal motion and firm but not brutal blows. Repeat ad libitum until it is stable in its new place. (i.e., multiple passes with as small adjustments as possible, and the last pass should be a tiny fraction of a beat.)

Well, that's my self-encouraging blather about the process, anyway.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 09-24-2017 23:32
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

When we arrive at the piano, it is almost always stabile; out-of-tune, perhaps. but usually quite stabile, especially if it has been played a lot.
As we begin to move the pitch, first we destabilize the string, then we move the pitch.
Now our job is just to put it back like it was before we moved it, but at the new pitch, i.e. let go of the instability we put in while moving the string.
Easy. yes?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message------

Ok Tuning Gurus: 
Answer this:

When I raise pitch, I tune the high section left-middle-right with my papps mute. Why, after returning to fine-tune, does the right string almost always go sharp? Often 10-15 cents. What in the piano could be causing this? Generally the worst in the 6th-7th octaves.


------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033
------------------------------

Very tricky question. First I think Mr Sutton is having us on a bit. With his background in the visual arts as well as in editing I'm confident that he is fully aware that stabile is a noun meaning:  "a freestanding abstract sculpture or structure, typically of wire or sheet metal, in the style of a mobile but rigid and stationary" and not an adjective connoting " not likely to give way or overturn; firmly fixed". And what is a string frame and strings if not a stabile? Curiously, he seems to be asking if our manipulation of the tuning pins makes the pitches produced by the stabile become labile. To which I answer ; Of course it does. And if it didn't what pray tell would we do with all of our spare time?

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 19:22
From: Gary Bruce
Subject: Tuning Stability

Is this happening all the time or just on some particular piano? 

Gary Bruce
Registered Piano Technician

Original Message------

Ok Tuning Gurus:
Answer this:

When I raise pitch, I tune the high section left-middle-right with my papps mute. Why, after returning to fine-tune, does the right string almost always go sharp? Often 10-15 cents. What in the piano could be causing this? Generally the worst in the 6th-7th octaves.


------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033
------------------------------

Karl-
I have corrected my spelling!
Whether I should correct the posts is another question.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 20:39
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Tuning Stability

Very tricky question. First I think Mr Sutton is having us on a bit. With his background in the visual arts as well as in editing I'm confident that he is fully aware that stabile is a noun meaning:  "a freestanding abstract sculpture or structure, typically of wire or sheet metal, in the style of a mobile but rigid and stationary" and not an adjective connoting " not likely to give way or overturn; firmly fixed". And what is a string frame and strings if not a stabile? Curiously, he seems to be asking if our manipulation of the tuning pins makes the pitches produced by the stabile become labile. To which I answer ; Of course it does. And if it didn't what pray tell would we do with all of our spare time?

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 19:22
From: Gary Bruce
Subject: Tuning Stability

Is this happening all the time or just on some particular piano? 

Gary Bruce
Registered Piano Technician

Original Message------

Ok Tuning Gurus:
Answer this:

When I raise pitch, I tune the high section left-middle-right with my papps mute. Why, after returning to fine-tune, does the right string almost always go sharp? Often 10-15 cents. What in the piano could be causing this? Generally the worst in the 6th-7th octaves.


------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033
------------------------------

Mr. Sutton,

Dang! It was so much more fun the other way.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 20:53
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability

Karl-
I have corrected my spelling!
Whether I should correct the posts is another question.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 20:39
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Tuning Stability

Very tricky question. First I think Mr Sutton is having us on a bit. With his background in the visual arts as well as in editing I'm confident that he is fully aware that stabile is a noun meaning:  "a freestanding abstract sculpture or structure, typically of wire or sheet metal, in the style of a mobile but rigid and stationary" and not an adjective connoting " not likely to give way or overturn; firmly fixed". And what is a string frame and strings if not a stabile? Curiously, he seems to be asking if our manipulation of the tuning pins makes the pitches produced by the stabile become labile. To which I answer ; Of course it does. And if it didn't what pray tell would we do with all of our spare time?

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2017 19:22
From: Gary Bruce
Subject: Tuning Stability

Is this happening all the time or just on some particular piano? 

Gary Bruce
Registered Piano Technician

Original Message------

Ok Tuning Gurus:
Answer this:

When I raise pitch, I tune the high section left-middle-right with my papps mute. Why, after returning to fine-tune, does the right string almost always go sharp? Often 10-15 cents. What in the piano could be causing this? Generally the worst in the 6th-7th octaves.


------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033
------------------------------