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CA glue Bridge Pins

  • 1.  CA glue Bridge Pins

    Posted 07-22-2017 11:56
    False beats through out entire tenor and treble section of 7' Kawai grand piano. Want to CA bridge pins with strings in place. Should CA kill tone, can I just back off string and pull up to reinstate clear tone or scrape string with dental tool to break string free.  OR must I remove each string from bridge pin before applying CA glue. 
         Looking for fastest and best solution.

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    Thomas Black
    Decatur AL
    256-350-9315
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  • 2.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-22-2017 13:04
    I had a similar experience, also with a Kawai. But, thanks to discussions here, I learned and subsequently came to realize that by CA gluing the bridge pins I had not experienced a loss in tone so much as a loss of noise. The harsh was gone, as were the false beats, and what was left was clean. The noise made the piano sound louder than it was. On the next visit I experienced a couple of strings that would not pull into unison, or were delivering very weird overtones. I discovered that a teeny tiny bit of CA glue had clogged the gap between the string just as it leaves the bridge pin. Yes, a dental tool is exactly what I used to clean that up. Went through every string just to make sure and the piano tone is now clean and stable. It's also a lot easier to tune.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 3.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Posted 07-22-2017 13:08
    Thanks,
    I'll CA with strings on and have my dental tool handy.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 4.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Posted 07-22-2017 18:58
    Not only can CA form a bead at the notch/pin area, CA can migrate along the speaking length. The tri-angular dental scraper is the best tool to use. I also removed the backing from an Exacto Razor Saw to allow more flexibility and insert it from one or two unisons away to further clear the area.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 5.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Posted 07-22-2017 19:02
    Thanks Jon.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 6.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Posted 07-23-2017 12:52
    Geoff - (or anyone else with experience) - what kind of applicator are you using and how much glue do you apply?

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    Terry Farrell
    President
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    813-684-3505
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  • 7.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Posted 07-23-2017 15:23
    I use an old style drafting pen. It applies a measured amount in a controlled manner.

    Topic: Drafting pens for CA application

    http://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=43&MID=654530&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer#bm8

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 8.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Posted 07-24-2017 06:32
      |   view attached
    Thanks for your input Jon. I hope you might be willing to provide some clarification - because, well, I'm confused!

    In your 2015 post, you referred to "an old-style (drafting) pen with a quick release for easier cleaning", "dental tools to excavate under the strings", "Exacto Razor Saw blade to score a line under the strings in front of the pins throughout the top two treble sections".

    Attached (I hope!) is a picture of either a pen or a dental tool that you posted with in the above-referenced post. What is that thing? Is that the dental tool? How do you use it? Is that the pen? If so, how do you use it to apply CA glue? I did find the Exacto saw blades - but how on earth would you access the area under "the strings in front of the (bridge) pins"? And also exactly what are you trying to do with your effort to "score a line"? Is that an effort to somehow remove excess hardened CA glue from that area? If so, then you are using both the Exacto blade and the dental tool to do the same thing?

    Sorry for so many questions and perhaps sounding so dense. I have tried CA glue on bridge pins and found that it dulled tone noticeably. I'm thinking that if I could clean the area afterward better, I might have better results - and hence, all the questions.

    Thanks so much!!!

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    Terry Farrell
    President
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Posted 07-24-2017 08:53
    Terry,

    regarding the CA dulling the tone...are you sure the "dulling" isn't just that the false beat shimmer is gone and quiet?  A really clean high treble unison, after stopping all self-beating, is quite a bit quieter and can seem dull in comparison to the noisy note. Actually, when the piano is at a stage where it not offering much up there, after shutting down the noises, one is left with nothing much in the way of tone.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 10.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Posted 07-23-2017 15:41
    Terry,
    I have had good results using Lowe's Locktite control Applicator CA glue (blue bottle).
    I apply one drop at a time to the back base of the bridge pin until the hole is filled, trying not to over fill. I have many pins to fill this time.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 11.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Posted 07-23-2017 19:07
    See this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxbT1sL_hj0

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 12.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-23-2017 19:19
    Thanks for posting this, Ed. Almost exactly how I do it. It also shows just how almost impossible it is to avoid getting that little drop just under the speaking length of the string. That little drop won't cause problems until the glue is absolutely cured and hard and then it may cause some noise or unwanted partials. That's where the dentist tool comes in. You can usually get one free for the asking from your dentist. They don't last forever so there are always old ones lying around waiting to be tossed. Use it to easily chip out that little chunk under the string and to also scrape away any little drops that have formed on the string itself. CA glue, when dry, is actually quite brittle so those unwanted drops mostly come off with barely a touch.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 13.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Posted 07-24-2017 06:34
    Geoff - Do you by chance have a picture of the dental tool you use for cleaning excess CA? Or maybe know the technical name of the tool?

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    Terry Farrell
    President
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    813-684-3505
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  • 14.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-24-2017 11:03
    Terrance --

    You can get kits from Amazon and other sources. They're cheap, like a couple of bucks, but your dentist would probably give you an old one that would probably otherwise get tossed..



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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 15.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Member
    Posted 07-24-2017 21:54
    The correct name of the small tool company is MicroMark

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 16.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Member
    Posted 07-24-2017 08:30
    Check out some of the CA applicator tools that you can buy from MicroMart tools. They have an applicator that you can use to draw uo CA glue by capillary action which is the same principal pens use. I have used very long CA glue applicator tips attached to the glue bottle with success. If you can inject the glue away from the top of the bridge cap it may not even get on the string. Although I have never tried mold release to form a barrier and prevent adhesion of ca perhaps it is worth trying. Mold release is used to make castings and to prevent the cast master from sticking to the mold material . Some high quality, low adhesive masking tape may work to form a barrier to prevent the glue from creeping down the wire.

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 17.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-24-2017 10:41
    You can use a 2oz hypo oiler (hypo-25 from pianotek).  It has a fine needle applicator and with the water thin CA you can apply it directly (don't put too much CA in the bottle, 1/8" - 1/4" is plenty and with the smaller amount you can control flow better).  The needle won't clog during a continuous application and if you want to you can rinse it out with acetone when you're done otherwise you'll never get the needle unclogged once the CA hardens.  

    Apply to the non string side of the bridge pin and the CA will wick into the pin joint.  A small piece of paper towel will wick the excess up very quickly if you apply too much.  I've not had to go back and scrape anything.  

    When stringing I often use this same procedure to either secure the original bridge pins or secure the new ones.  Apply the CA on the notch side of the pin and wick off any overflow with a paper towel.  I usually do this before I varnish the notches on new bridges.

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 18.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-25-2017 06:26
    I use .5ml pipettes to CA bridge pins with the strings on.  When done:  empty and trash.  I did a bridge yesterday this way pretty much the same as David Love, but using two pipettes.  The video from the PTG seems to me to be overkill both technically and environmentally.  I also use them to repair stripped screw holes with baking soda and CA.  Pipettes have become a vital part of my tool kit.

    https://www.amazon.com/G2PLUS-Disposable-Plastic-Transfer-Pipettes/dp/B00SY3USA2/ref=sr_1_9?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1500977760&sr=1-9&keywords=.5+pipette

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    Tim Coates
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 19.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Posted 07-26-2017 06:14
    Thanks for sharing the idea Tim. Those pipettes look like a great way to go!

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    President
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-26-2017 10:11
    Terry,

    I forgot to mention the pipettes are perfect for voicing hammers with an extremely controlled way to apply the liquid of your choice.  I started out, though, just using them for CA glue. 



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    Tim Coates
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 21.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Posted 07-29-2017 06:07
    Lacquer don't dissolve the plastic pipette?

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    Terry Farrell
    President
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-29-2017 08:32
    Terry,

    One would have to work very slowly for the plastic to dissolve.  Not seen that happen, but I suppose it is possible. 

    Peter,

    Good tip.  I've had luck controlling the flow of the .5ml pipettes and use the 3lm pipettes to insert baking soda into holes.  The 3lm tip can be used to form the baking soda before putting a drop or two of CA with no accelerator for a rock hard repair.  Thursday I repaired leg plate screw holes for a piano mover in less that 5 minutes.  He did not believe me, but saw the process and now will be making it part of his repair tool kit.

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    Tim Coates
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 23.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2017 23:23
    "Lacquer don't dissolve the plastic pipette?"

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    Terry Farrell
    President
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    813-684-3505

    Turns out that the pipettes Mr.Coates links to are made of LDPE (low density poly ethylene) the same stuff as Gaunt hypo oilers are made of. It's rated as fairly resistant to toluene and acetone. I've kept lacquer and thinner in a hypo oiler for well over a year at a time without incident.

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    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
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  • 24.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-28-2017 17:48
    Tim,

    I agree. I use these things all over the place. Bought a box of 500 for less than $20. 

    And too, you can reduce the size of the opening by stretching it with a pair of pliers and cutting off the excess. Now the tube is half the diameter it was before. Nice!

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Member
    Posted 07-29-2017 11:12

      I hope you are using proper safety precautions such as wearing chemical resistant gloves as well as safety glasses.

     I use resin syringes when doing CA pin blocks however I got some very good long length applicator tips that attach to the tip of the bottle. They worked quite well.  I did see that the company sells glass pipettes. In my opinion they would last longer and be safer as long as the ca does not get on the rubber bulb. After use flush the glass tube with some acetone or nail polish remover

    Personally I would use some fast acting epoxy putty mixed by with nitrile gloves for this type of repair especially on a leg plate or a lyre screw hole. I am not sure of the long term life of a CA glue screw hole repair with baking soda. All I know is that CA seems to crystalize when dried..  I may experiment with the baking soda tip on some small holes .

    You do not want CA to get in your eyes or on your skin or clothing. A little on the tips of you fingers is not too bad but I had some glue
    spill on my pants and it burned a hole in them as well as burned my thigh.  Be very careful with CA and read the label and the MDSD
    -material data safety data sheet that explains what it is and dangers as well as precautions

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 26.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2017 12:57
    James,

    Thank you for your concern about safety.  I go a bit farther than what you suggest, but to each his own.  I prefer the pipettes I mentioned because they don't need maintenance and the bulb gets "loaded" with liquid.  I've tried syringes and they don't have near the control as a  pipette for me.

    Good luck with your experiments using baking soda and CA glue.  I hope you find the combination as effective has everyone else who has used it.

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    Tim Coates
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 27.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2017 15:27
    I'll make some experiments with CA and baking soda, which I haven't tried.

    CA with white glue, in  a number of minor variations, has worked extremely well for me -- sets up fast, reversible if one doesn't wait very long, non-toxic.

    Do you have some theoretical basis for the baking soda with CA? How did you discover it? Any hints about how you use them?

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 28.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2017 16:40
    Susan,

    Baking soda and CA is nothing new.  I first learned about it maybe 15 years ago from piano technicians in Cincinnati using it for bridge repairs (which I've done for fast permanent fixes).  For a description of the chemical reaction you can look it up on Wikipedia under CA glue.  I know Wikipedia isn't always reliable, but in a pinch it's OK.

    Unlike a mixture of baking soda and white glue, this is not easily undone.  Many, many uses.  I wouldn't be without it.

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    Tim Coates
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 29.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2017 17:25
    Hi, Tim

    I don't mix baking soda and white glue. I've never used baking soda. I mix the white glue with CA glue.

    Can you describe some of your many uses, and how to do them?

    <thanks>

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 30.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2017 18:14
    Susan,

    I apologize for misreading your post.

    Some uses:  extending pedal lyre braces, sculpting new bridge areas, filling gouges on cases, filling bridge pin holes, and of course screw holes.  If one wants to color the repair StewMac guitar supply sells colored CA. 

    To extend a wooden pedal lyre brace:  wrap masking tape around one end of the brace leaving a cup of sorts.  Put in a level amount of baking soda and then apply several drops of CA.  Remove the tape and sand or grind to your desired length. If you want to add a considerable length it works better to build it up.  Still only takes about 5 minutes.

    To sculpt a bridge area:  use baking soda to form the area and apply CA.  You may have to build it up, but only takes a few minutes.

    To fill bridge pin holes:  use pipette to drive baking soda into hole, level, then apply a few drops of CA.

    To fill case gouges:  fill with baking soda than apply a few drops of CA.  

    To fill screw holes:  fill hole with baking soda using pipette, level, and apply a few drops of CA.  When moving an action stack to improve leverage the screw holes need to be filled.  Fast and easy with baking soda and CA.

    To repair screw holes without redrilling:  use pipette to insert some baking soda, use pipette to arrange baking soda around side of hole, apply few drops of CA with pipette.

    Wikipedia states airplane propeller pock marks are repaired using baking soda and CA.  Propellers are not in my wheelhouse.



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    Tim Coates
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 31.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2017 23:03

    Ah, I see. Baking soda turns CA glue into a gap-filler. Who would have thought?

    I'll definitely work on this. It sounds very useful. It won't be hard to put a plastic can (film can size) of baking soda inside a ziploc bag into my kit. Possibly a small amount of tape to build forms for the new material might be helpful to carry with me.

    For the grand lyre braces where the upper holes for them are eaten out, I usually have carved pieces of scrap hammer felt, wedged them in, judged whether they work, then removed them and glued them in with CA and white glue. It builds a shallow, firm, but soft and quiet wall around the upper ends of the lyre props while leaving them removable when the piano has to be shipped.



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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 32.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-31-2017 11:01
    If one wants to delve into the use of pipettes more StewMac.com has reviews and ideas for their use.  It's interesting one person tells of rinsing them out with lacquer thinner and reusing them.  They sell a ready made version of a pipette Peter Grey makes.  I subscribe to their emails and sometimes their are some real gems there.  Guitar repair people deal with many issues we deal with. 

    http://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and_Supplies/Glues_and_Adhesives/Applicators_and_Pipettes/Pipettes.html

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    Tim Coates
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 33.  RE: CA glue Bridge Pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-31-2017 22:22
    Tim,

    I second Stewmac.com. Great site and many similarities to our work with unique solutions.

    I bought my pipette on Amazon pretty cheap. Work great. Nice idea about using the pipette for the baking soda. 

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00SY3USA2/ref=gwm_tlc_pi?pf_rd_p=62af779f-88df-4dd0-be50-91c6a4b9661a&pf_rd_s=grid-6&pf_rd_t=Gateway&pf_rd_i=mobile&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=G4HJZJ2K5F98QVA6C93Z&pf_rd_r=G4HJZJ2K5F98QVA6C93Z&pf_rd_p=62af779f-88df-4dd0-be50-91c6a4b9661a&pd_rd_i=B00SY3USA2

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------