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too tight tuning pins

  • 1.  too tight tuning pins

    Posted 04-14-2017 20:23
    I am servicing an older C3 Yamaha that has been restrung and pins set too high. I reset the already too tight pins to the correct height because of flag pole issues. Now I have two or three pins in the mid section that are almost impossible to set. I'm thinking of backing off 1 1/2 turns, removing the becket and coil, back out the pin, apply talcum power and drive the pin back into the block. I've used talcum for years as a so called lubricant for my pins. I may be required to do this procedure twice in order to get some relief. 
         Do you folks have a better plan. 



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    Thomas Black
    Decatur AL
    256-350-9315
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  • 2.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Member
    Posted 04-14-2017 21:32
    go down a size pin. make sure you support the block when pounding in. if the pin is too loose hit it with a shot of thin ca

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 3.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Posted 04-15-2017 06:42
    I'd give it a try, but you could always ream it out a little instead of just putting in the talcum powder.

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    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
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  • 4.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-15-2017 08:00
    A better plan?  Sure.  If the block is good, re-restring it the right way.  Thomas, you don't provide all that much information, such as the size and length of pins that were used, the torque before and after, the height of the bottom coil from plate, before and after,  or why you didn't expect to have these sorts of problems when you decided that flag-polling needed to be addressed.  Since you seem to have compounded the problem, there's no reason why this piano should ever feel right (to tune), either for you or the next guy.  

    With regard to James K's idea of putting a smaller pin back in with the option of using CA if it proves to be too loose, I'd recommend trying it on your own piano, or some throw-away first, not on a customer's.  (If you wanted to go experimental, you could always try some ballistol or the like.  NOTE: I'm not advising that). More reasonable (to me) would be John Formsma's approach, although you could also try some combination of working the pin, removing it and replacing it (a few times), trying a shorter version of same size, etc.

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 5.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Posted 04-15-2017 08:50
    How tight is "too tight"?  What's the torque taken with the strings at pitch?

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 6.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-15-2017 09:35
    I would think that taking the pin out and simply putting it back in would be plenty sufficient. Or even simply backing it out 1 or two turns and going back and forth a few times to "wear it out" a little.

    My approach would be to be as minimally invasive as possible, increasing invasion as required by failure. Does that make any sense?  🤔

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 7.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-15-2017 09:44
    I just did this to one of our Baldwin L's here at U of SC.  Backed the too tight pins all the way out and then turned them back in. Now they're just right!

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    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Director of Piano Services
    School of Music
    813 Assembly St
    University of South Carolina
    Columbia, SC 29208
    pwilliams@mozart.sc.edu
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  • 8.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-15-2017 11:03
    Remove the offenders (if it's just a few), do a *light* reaming of the hole with an appropriate drill bit and a hand held drill and be sure to punch out the little shelf that can be present at the bottom of the hole where the original pin stopped.  Otherwise the bottom of this o/s pin will be butting up against a hole that was drilled for a smaller pin and it can create some problems.  You don't need to remove much material but you'll want to deglaze the hole from having removed the pin and insure that the bottom of the hole is consistent with the top (can also be a problem if the new o/s pins that were used were longer).  And then just put the same pin back in.  The act of removing and replacing plus the light reaming should free it up.

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 9.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Posted 04-16-2017 06:26
    I had this on a restrung piano. Impossible to tune. After driving the pins to a proper height, I backed all pins a half turn. Then I wrenched each pin back and forth (30 half turns); counter-clockwise first. The bass only required 20 half turns to achieve a good torque.

    While everything was slack, I installed Counter Bearing Aliquots in the tenor to eliminate the drag from the expanse of felt. It is pleasure to tune.



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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 10.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-16-2017 10:34
    About a month ago, a local technician posed a question on a different tech list, seeking recommendations for possible sub-specialities for an entering technician to consider, as something for which other technicians might make referrals.  Given my advancing years and delicate physique - a virtual flower -  I'd be happy to have someone execute Jon's method.   I have a candidate piano - newly strung - which I'll measure and then see how far I can get with it myself.  The trick, off course, will be to get all the beckets back to the correct position when done.

    Happy Easter and Passover, for those that do.

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 11.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Posted 04-16-2017 10:49
    It does take physical stamina.  About every ten unisons, I needed a short break. The beckets will return to where they were. You need to keep the coils pulled up through the rechipping process. Squeeze in the becket, tap the coil when close to pitch.

    Overpull pitch and use parallel pliers to grip the coil and give 4 quarter-turns counter-clockwise to coax the coil around the pin to advance the settling-in process. Tune, tune, tune...

    The whole process took 6-8 hours.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 12.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-16-2017 12:28
    What I learned from Steinway NY was the first tuner after chipping was supposed to loosen any over tight tuning pins by doing just what Jon described. Turn the tight one down by close to 90 degrees and turn it back up by about 45 degrees and repeat as needed until the torque is reduced to proper amount to "feel" good. Don't turn it too fast or you can break a tuning pin and you won't be able to feel it accurately. Plus that is hard on your shoulder/back/elbow etc.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 13.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-16-2017 14:08
    I restrung two Steinway B's quite a few years ago installing a 1/8" brass rod for the same purpose, following the contour of the cloth string rest. These pianos tuned very well. Took just enough pressure off the cloth to help dramatically. 

    So why did I not continue? Well...I was roundly condemned for it by Wendell Eaton for "changing the design of" the Steinway (who was I to think that I knew better than them?). At the time, I succumbed to the pressure and stopped doing it.

    Sorry in advance if anyone is offended by this. I am only stating a historical fact that I remember like it was yesterday, standing on my back deck being ripped up one side and down the other over the phone for this 'alteration'. Wendell was not well known for tact.

    That being said, these bearings seem a bit higher than I would be inclined to install (assuming I was to do it again).  I think the idea is a good one, and also lends a slight bit more resonance due to that front section of wire ringing a little. It can be muted of course if it's too much.

    Nice to know I wasn't the only one to do this.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 14.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-16-2017 14:10
    I do this routinely now on pianos with long areas of bearing felt.  Steinway pictured.  It's a bit off topic but response to Jon's post.  Working the pin back and forth can work to ease them but on restrung pianos I find sometimes it can lead to jumpy pins.  On a new block it's different.  



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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 15.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-16-2017 16:48
    David,

    Very similar to what I did, but significantly more elegant.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 16.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Posted 04-16-2017 17:35
    When restringing, I do as David does. When Installing the aliquots, I place a punching I make under each unison.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 17.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-16-2017 17:48
    Jon,

    A punching to prevent vibration?

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 18.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Posted 04-16-2017 18:12
    yes

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 19.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-17-2017 07:15
    Jon said:
    When Installing the aliquots, I place a punching I make under each unison.

    I wish this was a little clearer to me:
    - what are alliquots made of?
    - do you make them yourself?
    - what are punchings made of?

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 20.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-17-2017 09:48
    Jon:

    I like your idea - simple and elegant.  What size is your brass half-round stock, and where did you get it?

    Thanks, 

    Will Truitt

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    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
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  • 21.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Posted 04-17-2017 14:25
    It is 3/8" half-rounds purchased from RJ Leahy Co. I buy 12' lengths (cut down to ship) and cut 5/16" wide pieces on a band saw. I polish the stock before cutting. On one length, I sanded one edge on a belt sander about a third of the way in; this is for tight quarters.

    This morning I tuned the S&S M that was my first installation (motivation to test this idea). It was untunable, now it is a pleasure to tune.
    Lower the tension on two unisons (three loops) a half tone. Install aliquots. The notes will be close to pitch. I think there is more info on installation in the archives.


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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 22.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-18-2017 05:00
    Thank you, Jon.  I'm going to try it.

    Will

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    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
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  • 23.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Posted 04-19-2017 03:36
    The name 'aliquot' implies that two parts of the speaking length of a string sounding sympathetically as in Steinway, or - in the case of Bluthner - an entire string which sounds sympathetically and is tuned with its own wrest pin. Here we have a super solution to that 'difficult-to-tune' grand caused by the down-bearing of the string on that bearing felt. My thought is - there has to be a better name for this half-round device. And so we add yet another part name to the 'Piano Parts Nomenclature'.  But what is it to be called?        Michael    UK





  • 24.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Posted 04-19-2017 06:05
    "Half-Round Aliquot"

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    Garret Traylor
    Trinity NC
    336-887-4266
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  • 25.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Posted 04-24-2017 12:33
    Ever experiment with extension tuning levers? I use an obsolete Apsco and an ancient Hale tuning hammer. I am accustomed to the extra weight and don't choke up to move from pin to pin. 

    I think a myth is that extension levers are for spacing, or chipping newly strung pianos. 

    Rigidity and weight reduction have become the rule in redesigning the piano tuning hammer. The heads frequently involved with extension hammers convince people to turn elsewhere. But there is the Jahn head and extension tuning lever from Pianotech as an alternative to the traditional head. I have tried the Watanabe, which despite having the traditional head, is relatively rigid compared to the traditional Apsco and Hale extenstion tuning hammers. 

    There are pianos I frankly could not either tune with ease and/or put a stable tuning in the midrange on until I experimented with an old Hale tuning hammer extension lever. The improvement is miraculous; how much the flex and extra weight as well as protracting the lever, helped, I couldn't say.

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    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
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  • 26.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Posted 04-24-2017 13:29
    Decorative Hale Hammer... priceless

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    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
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  • 27.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Posted 04-24-2017 13:48
    Re long levers, I had Charles Faulk make me a 15-1/4" with a 10deg head. I started thinking about long levers coming off of a 24" chipping lever, my 4 iron, made out of a busted golf club. After using that, I thought long levers had potential, as long as head flex could be addressed. Charles's tool cuts the flex well.
    I had him make the handle straight instead of ball end, because it is not impacted or slapped. Instead, as I played with it for 6 months or so, I started to realize how I could use the inherent flex of a long lever to my advantage. All moves are levered by my hand, levering off of the plate at mostly full extension...no jerking. Once I understood the flex, and how to use it to my advantage, I actually started to like tight blocks..they allow a very stable ease down to pitch, with the long lever at appropriate angles to the string, that I do not trust with less tight blocks. The leverage really takes a fair amount of oomph out of the operation...assuming we are not talking 225inlb but more in the 175-ish department

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 28.  RE: too tight tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2017 18:39
    I would simply call the thing a "auxiliary proximal string rest", since as Michael mentioned, it is not REALLY an aliquot as we usually use the term. It just looks like one.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------