Pianotech

I am trying to adjust the rep springs on a YC grand that I also put new action brackets on . I have a hart rep spring tool but finding the adjustment is difficult. The spring that fits into the grub on the balancier is so close to the balancier it is hard to get out. There is not much slack in the rep spring as one usually finds on other reps with butterfly springs. I am looking for a good tip and tool idea that may be better than the HART tool . So far I have done just 4 !!! ( of course this was after doing other work and at the end of the day)

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

James

I've had the same problem as you describe. As far as I know there really isn't another way to get the springs out, other than just try to get the edge of the tool under the spring. It's a little bit of a pain, but you'll get the hang of it in no time.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2017 19:30
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

I am trying to adjust the rep springs on a YC grand that I also put new action brackets on . I have a hart rep spring tool but finding the adjustment is difficult. The spring that fits into the grub on the balancier is so close to the balancier it is hard to get out. There is not much slack in the rep spring as one usually finds on other reps with butterfly springs. I am looking for a good tip and tool idea that may be better than the HART tool . So far I have done just 4 !!! ( of course this was after doing other work and at the end of the day)

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

My experience also. Just have to get used to what to do and the only way is by doing it until it make sense.

------------------------------
John Formsma, RPT
New Albany MS
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2017 02:54
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

James

I've had the same problem as you describe. As far as I know there really isn't another way to get the springs out, other than just try to get the edge of the tool under the spring. It's a little bit of a pain, but you'll get the hang of it in no time.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2017 19:30
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

I am trying to adjust the rep springs on a YC grand that I also put new action brackets on . I have a hart rep spring tool but finding the adjustment is difficult. The spring that fits into the grub on the balancier is so close to the balancier it is hard to get out. There is not much slack in the rep spring as one usually finds on other reps with butterfly springs. I am looking for a good tip and tool idea that may be better than the HART tool . So far I have done just 4 !!! ( of course this was after doing other work and at the end of the day)

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

There are other spring tools with a narrow tip.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2017 19:30
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

I am trying to adjust the rep springs on a YC grand that I also put new action brackets on . I have a hart rep spring tool but finding the adjustment is difficult. The spring that fits into the grub on the balancier is so close to the balancier it is hard to get out. There is not much slack in the rep spring as one usually finds on other reps with butterfly springs. I am looking for a good tip and tool idea that may be better than the HART tool . So far I have done just 4 !!! ( of course this was after doing other work and at the end of the day)

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Name two of them :)
Could the tip of the Hart tool be ground enough to help insertion without weakening it?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2017 08:33
From: Jon Page
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

There are other spring tools with a narrow tip.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2017 19:30
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

I am trying to adjust the rep springs on a YC grand that I also put new action brackets on . I have a hart rep spring tool but finding the adjustment is difficult. The spring that fits into the grub on the balancier is so close to the balancier it is hard to get out. There is not much slack in the rep spring as one usually finds on other reps with butterfly springs. I am looking for a good tip and tool idea that may be better than the HART tool . So far I have done just 4 !!! ( of course this was after doing other work and at the end of the day)

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Schaff Catalogue, pg 44 lists five spring tools. One is the tool (#3148) Cecil posted which is the one I use.

Is it so difficult to look in a catalogue or their online stores?   I can hear Ron now....

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2017 08:56
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

Name two of them :)
Could the tip of the Hart tool be ground enough to help insertion without weakening it?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2017 08:33
From: Jon Page
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

There are other spring tools with a narrow tip.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2017 19:30
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

I am trying to adjust the rep springs on a YC grand that I also put new action brackets on . I have a hart rep spring tool but finding the adjustment is difficult. The spring that fits into the grub on the balancier is so close to the balancier it is hard to get out. There is not much slack in the rep spring as one usually finds on other reps with butterfly springs. I am looking for a good tip and tool idea that may be better than the HART tool . So far I have done just 4 !!! ( of course this was after doing other work and at the end of the day)

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

The 'down' side is that "you can hear Ron now".  That's not the Ron many of us would choose to remember, no matter how correct he was.
The 'up' side is that, so far, only YOU can hear it, which is OK, until you start channeling it, regularly.

The other 'up' sides are that thread got me to re-view the sleeker Schaff catalog, reminded me of techniques for dealing with these spring types, and got Glen Hart to finally engage with this list.

And it's Fathers day, so be nice.

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-18-2017 07:19
From: Jon Page
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

Schaff Catalogue, pg 44 lists five spring tools. One is the tool (#3148) Cecil posted which is the one I use.

Is it so difficult to look in a catalogue or their online stores?   I can hear Ron now....

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2017 08:56
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

Name two of them :)
Could the tip of the Hart tool be ground enough to help insertion without weakening it?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2017 08:33
From: Jon Page
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

There are other spring tools with a narrow tip.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2017 19:30
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

I am trying to adjust the rep springs on a YC grand that I also put new action brackets on . I have a hart rep spring tool but finding the adjustment is difficult. The spring that fits into the grub on the balancier is so close to the balancier it is hard to get out. There is not much slack in the rep spring as one usually finds on other reps with butterfly springs. I am looking for a good tip and tool idea that may be better than the HART tool . So far I have done just 4 !!! ( of course this was after doing other work and at the end of the day)

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

I have a tool that has a 90 degree bend in the end of a stiff wire. The tip of the bent part has a small wave bent in so it acts as a hook. The problem is making the wire stiff enough after bending so it doesn't deform (and bending while it's hot). Not sure if you have equipment to do this, but heating the tip to cherry red, bending, then quenching in oil or water will harden it. Baking it then for something like half hour at 450-500F will temper steel. Other metals require different temperatures.

------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2017 19:30
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

I am trying to adjust the rep springs on a YC grand that I also put new action brackets on . I have a hart rep spring tool but finding the adjustment is difficult. The spring that fits into the grub on the balancier is so close to the balancier it is hard to get out. There is not much slack in the rep spring as one usually finds on other reps with butterfly springs. I am looking for a good tip and tool idea that may be better than the HART tool . So far I have done just 4 !!! ( of course this was after doing other work and at the end of the day)

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Since most of the springs are weak I am thinking of just taking the top stack off tipping the action and just unhooking all the rep springs since I can see them. This idea came to me after thinking about a Bill Spurlock class when he flipperd the action over to clean the grubs. I may fiddle with another idea and use a wire bent like something Mario mentioned. I have a number of different jeweler pliers that can bend wire quite well. My personal preference is the screw type adjustment but it is what it is. I will be back to this beast at 3pm today and keep you posted

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2017 19:30
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

I am trying to adjust the rep springs on a YC grand that I also put new action brackets on . I have a hart rep spring tool but finding the adjustment is difficult. The spring that fits into the grub on the balancier is so close to the balancier it is hard to get out. There is not much slack in the rep spring as one usually finds on other reps with butterfly springs. I am looking for a good tip and tool idea that may be better than the HART tool . So far I have done just 4 !!! ( of course this was after doing other work and at the end of the day)

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Start with an old monochord bass string, with about a 25 gauge core wire.
Cut off the end section, leaving about 5 inches wrapped for the handle.
Trim the open wire about an inch and a quarter.
Bend 1/4 inch of the tip a little more acute than 90 degrees. This bend becomes the hook to tug up and strengthen the spring.
Now bend the tip of the tip down a little, to catch the spring in the grub and pull it down and out. Modify this a little. filing a notch in the bend to catch the spring better, and tapering the tip to slide under the spring.

Finally, notice how the spring wire leaves the coil. It is far easier to pull out the spring and adjust it by pulling on the side where the wire leaves the coil than by pulling it across the coil.

[Sorry I don't have a picture, my shop tools are packed until the new shop room is built.]

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2017 10:48
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

Since most of the springs are weak I am thinking of just taking the top stack off tipping the action and just unhooking all the rep springs since I can see them. This idea came to me after thinking about a Bill Spurlock class when he flipperd the action over to clean the grubs. I may fiddle with another idea and use a wire bent like something Mario mentioned. I have a number of different jeweler pliers that can bend wire quite well. My personal preference is the screw type adjustment but it is what it is. I will be back to this beast at 3pm today and keep you posted

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2017 19:30
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

I am trying to adjust the rep springs on a YC grand that I also put new action brackets on . I have a hart rep spring tool but finding the adjustment is difficult. The spring that fits into the grub on the balancier is so close to the balancier it is hard to get out. There is not much slack in the rep spring as one usually finds on other reps with butterfly springs. I am looking for a good tip and tool idea that may be better than the HART tool . So far I have done just 4 !!! ( of course this was after doing other work and at the end of the day)

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

------------------------------
Cecil Snyder
Torrance CA
310-542-7108
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2017 15:00
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

Start with an old monochord bass string, with about a 25 gauge core wire.
Cut off the end section, leaving about 5 inches wrapped for the handle.
Trim the open wire about an inch and a quarter.
Bend 1/4 inch of the tip a little more acute than 90 degrees. This bend becomes the hook to tug up and strengthen the spring.
Now bend the tip of the tip down a little, to catch the spring in the grub and pull it down and out. Modify this a little. filing a notch in the bend to catch the spring better, and tapering the tip to slide under the spring.

Finally, notice how the spring wire leaves the coil. It is far easier to pull out the spring and adjust it by pulling on the side where the wire leaves the coil than by pulling it across the coil.

[Sorry I don't have a picture, my shop tools are packed until the new shop room is built.]

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2017 10:48
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

Since most of the springs are weak I am thinking of just taking the top stack off tipping the action and just unhooking all the rep springs since I can see them. This idea came to me after thinking about a Bill Spurlock class when he flipperd the action over to clean the grubs. I may fiddle with another idea and use a wire bent like something Mario mentioned. I have a number of different jeweler pliers that can bend wire quite well. My personal preference is the screw type adjustment but it is what it is. I will be back to this beast at 3pm today and keep you posted

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2017 19:30
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

I am trying to adjust the rep springs on a YC grand that I also put new action brackets on . I have a hart rep spring tool but finding the adjustment is difficult. The spring that fits into the grub on the balancier is so close to the balancier it is hard to get out. There is not much slack in the rep spring as one usually finds on other reps with butterfly springs. I am looking for a good tip and tool idea that may be better than the HART tool . So far I have done just 4 !!! ( of course this was after doing other work and at the end of the day)

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message------



------------------------------
Cecil Snyder
Torrance CA
310-542-7108
------------------------------

Hello all,  I've never posted on the PTG discussions before but I guess that now is as good a time as any to start.  First of all, I want to thank  all of you who have purchased Hart Tools for the last 30 plus years.  In regards to the Hart Spring Tool (HST) discussion, I agree that with certain Asian pianos the springs are too close to the bottom of the rep lever.  The end of the HST has been turned down from .125" to .100" solely for the purpose of facilitating grabbing the spring on these pianos. I don't want to go too small because the notch has to be deep enough to grab the spring.   One can increase the arc of the spring by using two spring tools. Everyone needs two Hart Spring Tools - right?  Oh wait, I'm selling - sorry!!  I've only done this a couple of times as I don't find it much of a problem to just lean the HST a bit to insert it between the lever and  the spring.   With the stack upside down, hold the spring at the inside of the bend where it contacts the rep lever.  Insert the other spring tool between the rep lever and the spring and pull up, massaging a greater curve into the spring. Be careful because this changes where the spring rides in the groove and effectively shortens the length of the spring but you don't need very much and I've never heard of anyone having problems.  This is a "wholesale" operation and should go quickly. It is then followed by a normal regulation.
    On new sets of wippens that have regulationg screws (Renner), the tension in the spring is almost always too strong.  Often the spring is still too strong when the screw is taken to the upper limit.  I always do a quick adjustment by pushing the springs down until they touch the bottom of the wippen (the rocker).  A HST is as essential a tool with these wippens as with any butterfly spring design.  This reminds me of an time when I was selling tools at a convention.  I made my pitch and the technician then replied that he didn't regulate rep springs, he just sold the customer new wippens.  He was absolutely serious, thinking that the new ones came pre-regulated!  Well anyway, thanks for listening and as always,  my opinions are subject to change without notice!!!  Glen

------------------------------
Glen Hart
Grand Junction CO
970-434-5558
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2017 19:30
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

I am trying to adjust the rep springs on a YC grand that I also put new action brackets on . I have a hart rep spring tool but finding the adjustment is difficult. The spring that fits into the grub on the balancier is so close to the balancier it is hard to get out. There is not much slack in the rep spring as one usually finds on other reps with butterfly springs. I am looking for a good tip and tool idea that may be better than the HART tool . So far I have done just 4 !!! ( of course this was after doing other work and at the end of the day)

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

  Thank you all for keeping this thread going with your comments , tip, and suggestions. Of all of the suggestions I think I like
the one from Glen because I can see the springs and do what needs to be done without damage. I think I have two Hart tools but will have to sort through my tool cases. I am not sure if this type spring is limited to YC whippens because all of the butterfly rep springs
I have regulated before had springs that the tool easily fit.

  Michael- since I will be working on the piano in the morning I will post a picture soon side by side with a whippen that has more
spring . I will also try to take some pictures of the technique suggested by Glen

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-18-2017 01:42
From: Glen Hart
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

Hello all,  I've never posted on the PTG discussions before but I guess that now is as good a time as any to start.  First of all, I want to thank  all of you who have purchased Hart Tools for the last 30 plus years.  In regards to the Hart Spring Tool (HST) discussion, I agree that with certain Asian pianos the springs are too close to the bottom of the rep lever.  The end of the HST has been turned down from .125" to .100" solely for the purpose of facilitating grabbing the spring on these pianos. I don't want to go too small because the notch has to be deep enough to grab the spring.   One can increase the arc of the spring by using two spring tools. Everyone needs two Hart Spring Tools - right?  Oh wait, I'm selling - sorry!!  I've only done this a couple of times as I don't find it much of a problem to just lean the HST a bit to insert it between the lever and  the spring.   With the stack upside down, hold the spring at the inside of the bend where it contacts the rep lever.  Insert the other spring tool between the rep lever and the spring and pull up, massaging a greater curve into the spring. Be careful because this changes where the spring rides in the groove and effectively shortens the length of the spring but you don't need very much and I've never heard of anyone having problems.  This is a "wholesale" operation and should go quickly. It is then followed by a normal regulation.
    On new sets of wippens that have regulationg screws (Renner), the tension in the spring is almost always too strong.  Often the spring is still too strong when the screw is taken to the upper limit.  I always do a quick adjustment by pushing the springs down until they touch the bottom of the wippen (the rocker).  A HST is as essential a tool with these wippens as with any butterfly spring design.  This reminds me of an time when I was selling tools at a convention.  I made my pitch and the technician then replied that he didn't regulate rep springs, he just sold the customer new wippens.  He was absolutely serious, thinking that the new ones came pre-regulated!  Well anyway, thanks for listening and as always,  my opinions are subject to change without notice!!!  Glen

------------------------------
Glen Hart
Grand Junction CO
970-434-5558
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2017 19:30
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

I am trying to adjust the rep springs on a YC grand that I also put new action brackets on . I have a hart rep spring tool but finding the adjustment is difficult. The spring that fits into the grub on the balancier is so close to the balancier it is hard to get out. There is not much slack in the rep spring as one usually finds on other reps with butterfly springs. I am looking for a good tip and tool idea that may be better than the HART tool . So far I have done just 4 !!! ( of course this was after doing other work and at the end of the day)

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Thanks, James, I look forward to your photos and to bending my mind on this problem!!

Michael   UK

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-18-2017 08:23
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand



  Thank you all for keeping this thread going with your comments , tip, and suggestions. Of all of the suggestions I think I like
the one from Glen because I can see the springs and do what needs to be done without damage. I think I have two Hart tools but will have to sort through my tool cases. I am not sure if this type spring is limited to YC whippens because all of the butterfly rep springs
I have regulated before had springs that the tool easily fit.

  Michael- since I will be working on the piano in the morning I will post a picture soon side by side with a whippen that has more
spring . I will also try to take some pictures of the technique suggested by Glen

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-18-2017 01:42
From: Glen Hart
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

Hello all,  I've never posted on the PTG discussions before but I guess that now is as good a time as any to start.  First of all, I want to thank  all of you who have purchased Hart Tools for the last 30 plus years.  In regards to the Hart Spring Tool (HST) discussion, I agree that with certain Asian pianos the springs are too close to the bottom of the rep lever.  The end of the HST has been turned down from .125" to .100" solely for the purpose of facilitating grabbing the spring on these pianos. I don't want to go too small because the notch has to be deep enough to grab the spring.   One can increase the arc of the spring by using two spring tools. Everyone needs two Hart Spring Tools - right?  Oh wait, I'm selling - sorry!!  I've only done this a couple of times as I don't find it much of a problem to just lean the HST a bit to insert it between the lever and  the spring.   With the stack upside down, hold the spring at the inside of the bend where it contacts the rep lever.  Insert the other spring tool between the rep lever and the spring and pull up, massaging a greater curve into the spring. Be careful because this changes where the spring rides in the groove and effectively shortens the length of the spring but you don't need very much and I've never heard of anyone having problems.  This is a "wholesale" operation and should go quickly. It is then followed by a normal regulation.
    On new sets of wippens that have regulationg screws (Renner), the tension in the spring is almost always too strong.  Often the spring is still too strong when the screw is taken to the upper limit.  I always do a quick adjustment by pushing the springs down until they touch the bottom of the wippen (the rocker).  A HST is as essential a tool with these wippens as with any butterfly spring design.  This reminds me of an time when I was selling tools at a convention.  I made my pitch and the technician then replied that he didn't regulate rep springs, he just sold the customer new wippens.  He was absolutely serious, thinking that the new ones came pre-regulated!  Well anyway, thanks for listening and as always,  my opinions are subject to change without notice!!!  Glen

------------------------------
Glen Hart
Grand Junction CO
970-434-5558
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2017 19:30
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

I am trying to adjust the rep springs on a YC grand that I also put new action brackets on . I have a hart rep spring tool but finding the adjustment is difficult. The spring that fits into the grub on the balancier is so close to the balancier it is hard to get out. There is not much slack in the rep spring as one usually finds on other reps with butterfly springs. I am looking for a good tip and tool idea that may be better than the HART tool . So far I have done just 4 !!! ( of course this was after doing other work and at the end of the day)

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

I forgot the pictures today but am returning Tuesday to retrieve my tools. I used a dental tool that I had in my tool kit to get the rep springs out of the grub and to the side where  I could massage the spring and add tension. Because the tool had a pigtail twist on the end it was easy. I get used tools from my dentist because they can be autoclaved/sterilized just so many times. I have purchased cheap dental tools at some tool stores but they are inferior and in fact dangerous because the metal can break off.  A very bright headlamp also made it easier to locate the spring from the side. I zipped through the springs quickly

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-19-2017 15:20
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

Thanks, James, I look forward to your photos and to bending my mind on this problem!!

Michael   UK

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-18-2017 08:23
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand



  Thank you all for keeping this thread going with your comments , tip, and suggestions. Of all of the suggestions I think I like
the one from Glen because I can see the springs and do what needs to be done without damage. I think I have two Hart tools but will have to sort through my tool cases. I am not sure if this type spring is limited to YC whippens because all of the butterfly rep springs
I have regulated before had springs that the tool easily fit.

  Michael- since I will be working on the piano in the morning I will post a picture soon side by side with a whippen that has more
spring . I will also try to take some pictures of the technique suggested by Glen

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-18-2017 01:42
From: Glen Hart
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

Hello all,  I've never posted on the PTG discussions before but I guess that now is as good a time as any to start.  First of all, I want to thank  all of you who have purchased Hart Tools for the last 30 plus years.  In regards to the Hart Spring Tool (HST) discussion, I agree that with certain Asian pianos the springs are too close to the bottom of the rep lever.  The end of the HST has been turned down from .125" to .100" solely for the purpose of facilitating grabbing the spring on these pianos. I don't want to go too small because the notch has to be deep enough to grab the spring.   One can increase the arc of the spring by using two spring tools. Everyone needs two Hart Spring Tools - right?  Oh wait, I'm selling - sorry!!  I've only done this a couple of times as I don't find it much of a problem to just lean the HST a bit to insert it between the lever and  the spring.   With the stack upside down, hold the spring at the inside of the bend where it contacts the rep lever.  Insert the other spring tool between the rep lever and the spring and pull up, massaging a greater curve into the spring. Be careful because this changes where the spring rides in the groove and effectively shortens the length of the spring but you don't need very much and I've never heard of anyone having problems.  This is a "wholesale" operation and should go quickly. It is then followed by a normal regulation.
    On new sets of wippens that have regulationg screws (Renner), the tension in the spring is almost always too strong.  Often the spring is still too strong when the screw is taken to the upper limit.  I always do a quick adjustment by pushing the springs down until they touch the bottom of the wippen (the rocker).  A HST is as essential a tool with these wippens as with any butterfly spring design.  This reminds me of an time when I was selling tools at a convention.  I made my pitch and the technician then replied that he didn't regulate rep springs, he just sold the customer new wippens.  He was absolutely serious, thinking that the new ones came pre-regulated!  Well anyway, thanks for listening and as always,  my opinions are subject to change without notice!!!  Glen

------------------------------
Glen Hart
Grand Junction CO
970-434-5558
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2017 19:30
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

I am trying to adjust the rep springs on a YC grand that I also put new action brackets on . I have a hart rep spring tool but finding the adjustment is difficult. The spring that fits into the grub on the balancier is so close to the balancier it is hard to get out. There is not much slack in the rep spring as one usually finds on other reps with butterfly springs. I am looking for a good tip and tool idea that may be better than the HART tool . So far I have done just 4 !!! ( of course this was after doing other work and at the end of the day)

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James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
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My guess, when coming across this situation, has been that the previous tech who was adjusting the springs simply pulled up on them, flattening the original curve of the spring. I have listened to a nationally respected instructor teaching that as his method, so I guess that technique is probably widespread enough. I find I can generally get the Hart tool between the rep lever and the spring by placing it very close to the post - there should be enough of a gap there. Having hooked the spring, I run the tool more toward the end of the spring, then pull it out to the side, and pull up and back to re-create the correct curvature.

And then, of course, it is necessary to weaken the spring the correct way, by pressing it downward, closing the eye somewhat. This requires lowering the spring toward the side, so as to miss the spoon and jack regulation button. It can be weakened more readily if you place the tool somewhat closer to the eye of the spring: more weakening per downward movement that way.

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Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-19-2017 17:08
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

I forgot the pictures today but am returning Tuesday to retrieve my tools. I used a dental tool that I had in my tool kit to get the rep springs out of the grub and to the side where  I could massage the spring and add tension. Because the tool had a pigtail twist on the end it was easy. I get used tools from my dentist because they can be autoclaved/sterilized just so many times. I have purchased cheap dental tools at some tool stores but they are inferior and in fact dangerous because the metal can break off.  A very bright headlamp also made it easier to locate the spring from the side. I zipped through the springs quickly

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James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-19-2017 15:20
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

Thanks, James, I look forward to your photos and to bending my mind on this problem!!

Michael   UK

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Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-18-2017 08:23
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand



  Thank you all for keeping this thread going with your comments , tip, and suggestions. Of all of the suggestions I think I like
the one from Glen because I can see the springs and do what needs to be done without damage. I think I have two Hart tools but will have to sort through my tool cases. I am not sure if this type spring is limited to YC whippens because all of the butterfly rep springs
I have regulated before had springs that the tool easily fit.

  Michael- since I will be working on the piano in the morning I will post a picture soon side by side with a whippen that has more
spring . I will also try to take some pictures of the technique suggested by Glen

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James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-18-2017 01:42
From: Glen Hart
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

Hello all,  I've never posted on the PTG discussions before but I guess that now is as good a time as any to start.  First of all, I want to thank  all of you who have purchased Hart Tools for the last 30 plus years.  In regards to the Hart Spring Tool (HST) discussion, I agree that with certain Asian pianos the springs are too close to the bottom of the rep lever.  The end of the HST has been turned down from .125" to .100" solely for the purpose of facilitating grabbing the spring on these pianos. I don't want to go too small because the notch has to be deep enough to grab the spring.   One can increase the arc of the spring by using two spring tools. Everyone needs two Hart Spring Tools - right?  Oh wait, I'm selling - sorry!!  I've only done this a couple of times as I don't find it much of a problem to just lean the HST a bit to insert it between the lever and  the spring.   With the stack upside down, hold the spring at the inside of the bend where it contacts the rep lever.  Insert the other spring tool between the rep lever and the spring and pull up, massaging a greater curve into the spring. Be careful because this changes where the spring rides in the groove and effectively shortens the length of the spring but you don't need very much and I've never heard of anyone having problems.  This is a "wholesale" operation and should go quickly. It is then followed by a normal regulation.
    On new sets of wippens that have regulationg screws (Renner), the tension in the spring is almost always too strong.  Often the spring is still too strong when the screw is taken to the upper limit.  I always do a quick adjustment by pushing the springs down until they touch the bottom of the wippen (the rocker).  A HST is as essential a tool with these wippens as with any butterfly spring design.  This reminds me of an time when I was selling tools at a convention.  I made my pitch and the technician then replied that he didn't regulate rep springs, he just sold the customer new wippens.  He was absolutely serious, thinking that the new ones came pre-regulated!  Well anyway, thanks for listening and as always,  my opinions are subject to change without notice!!!  Glen

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Glen Hart
Grand Junction CO
970-434-5558
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2017 19:30
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

I am trying to adjust the rep springs on a YC grand that I also put new action brackets on . I have a hart rep spring tool but finding the adjustment is difficult. The spring that fits into the grub on the balancier is so close to the balancier it is hard to get out. There is not much slack in the rep spring as one usually finds on other reps with butterfly springs. I am looking for a good tip and tool idea that may be better than the HART tool . So far I have done just 4 !!! ( of course this was after doing other work and at the end of the day)

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James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
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Original Message------

Thanks, James, I look forward to your photos and to bending my mind on this problem!!

Michael   UK

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Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
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Attached are several images that show the tight repetition springs on YC whippens. For comparison you can see how much bend there is on a Signature Pramberger whippen and even on a circa 1920's Chickering & Sons whippen with a brass whippen flange . I was able to access the springs by using a dental pick .

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James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2017 19:30
From: James Kelly
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

I am trying to adjust the rep springs on a YC grand that I also put new action brackets on . I have a hart rep spring tool but finding the adjustment is difficult. The spring that fits into the grub on the balancier is so close to the balancier it is hard to get out. There is not much slack in the rep spring as one usually finds on other reps with butterfly springs. I am looking for a good tip and tool idea that may be better than the HART tool . So far I have done just 4 !!! ( of course this was after doing other work and at the end of the day)

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message------

Attached are several images that show the tight repetition springs on YC whippens. For comparison you can see how much bend there is on a Signature Pramberger whippen and even on a circa 1920's Chickering & Sons whippen with a brass whippen flange . I was able to access the springs by using a dental pick .

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James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
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You are welcome about the pictures which I took with my iPhone. We call the slot that the spring rests in the "grub". Often timesd it gets full of gunk and needs to be cleaned out with the wood burnished with hard graphite which I then burnished. The tip if the spring often needs cleaning to remove verdigris and old deposits of grease etc,,,

Your idea of pliers sounds interesting although they will have to be narrow to get between each whippen. I found that the dental tools I had worked fine since they had the shapes to hook the spring and get it out to the side. The metal was strong and also could be used to massage the string. You are right about the need to change the strength of the wire in the coil and not bending the wire.
I have a set of wire pliers that I purchased from a company that sells small tools for hobby use. Between companies like them including companies that sell clock , jewelry or camera repair tools perhaps there is already a side plier.

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James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2017 01:54
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Adjusting Rep Springs on YC Grand

Thanks, James for your excellent photos which are indeed worth more than a thousand words! - I see the problem. I was having difficulty in understanding the term 'grub' - which I now see must be the slot in the underside of the balancier (or repetition lever in UK) into which the bent end of this butterfly spring slides. Grub, in my understanding, relates to a screw - so I was looking for one of those grub screws! - as used in some carriages (UK) or whippens (US) - to strengthen or slacken pressure in some jack springs of the non-butterfly variety. So I must invent a pair of pliers with convex and concave jaws sticking out of the side - you'll need two pairs - one with convex and one with concave jaws - I have such pliers for bending damper spoons &c. But these pliers will have the jaws at the side. This idea is to make adjustment to the curve by 'bending-by-compression' with the spring in situ. Removing the springs from their slot (or 'grub'?) means they have to be returned to same - wherein frequently lies the problem in a confined work-space.

Michael      UK