Pianotech

I personally have never filed hammers using anything but hand held sandpaper and sanding sticks. I tried it once using a Moto tool and some junk hammers but all I accomplished was gouging out a big dent. Not good. However, I know of people that do what I think I consider reasonable work using a rotary sanding attachment in a Dremel tool or Moto tool. I have also seen videos of techs using a jig and a drill press to keep the hammer flat and to add some control over how the head actually passes squarely over the rotating sandpaper. I understand that hand filing allows us ultimate control over pulling off the felt in clean layers, but it also means that we have to be really extra careful to make sure the surface remains flat and square with the sides. Not always easy. A hand held Dremal, or Moto tool would do little to prevent maintaining that square, although the surface would be nice and flat. Using a jig, as I see it, would accomplish both. But I'm curious as to how effective that kind of filing is in removing felt in clean layers. I'm also curious as to whether it makes any difference if the felt is taken off in layers if the flatness and squareness is maintained cleanly and the result is clean and smooth. And yes, I understand that some hand held fine grit sandpaper should still be used to polish up the head after this initial sanding even when that is done using a jig. 

I'm not after recommendations as to how I should do it. I'm interested in a discussion on your experience and pros & cons of doing it one way or the other. 

Thanks  --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Geoff, 

While hand filing techniques are essential to have, resurfacing hammer using either a drill press or an oscillating drum sander has much to recommend it. Whenever I have the hammer assemblies off for repining anyway, I do the resurfacing this way. Using an appropriate jig (available from Chris Brown, or you could fashion your own), the task goes quickly and yields excellent results. Perhaps the most valuable thing about this approach in my shop is that in a mere hour or two, novices can learn to file hammers well. (For most newbies, the learning curve for doing a decent job filing hammers by hand is far, far greater.)

Advantages include:

--crown (and entire surface, for that matter) guaranteed to be perpendicular to sides--and no, hammer taper does not skew this

--the feedback loop on symmetry and condition of the sanded surface is vastly superior to when the hammers are on the rail

--it's fast!

Obviously, Chris does it this way, and Jon Page has posted about it as well. (Thanks for the tip about the oscillating drum sander for this, Jon!) I know other accomplished technicians who use this approach as well.

Hope this encourages you to give it a shot. I am eternally grateful to the tech who introduced me to this.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2017 23:23
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

I personally have never filed hammers using anything but hand held sandpaper and sanding sticks. I tried it once using a Moto tool and some junk hammers but all I accomplished was gouging out a big dent. Not good. However, I know of people that do what I think I consider reasonable work using a rotary sanding attachment in a Dremel tool or Moto tool. I have also seen videos of techs using a jig and a drill press to keep the hammer flat and to add some control over how the head actually passes squarely over the rotating sandpaper. I understand that hand filing allows us ultimate control over pulling off the felt in clean layers, but it also means that we have to be really extra careful to make sure the surface remains flat and square with the sides. Not always easy. A hand held Dremal, or Moto tool would do little to prevent maintaining that square, although the surface would be nice and flat. Using a jig, as I see it, would accomplish both. But I'm curious as to how effective that kind of filing is in removing felt in clean layers. I'm also curious as to whether it makes any difference if the felt is taken off in layers if the flatness and squareness is maintained cleanly and the result is clean and smooth. And yes, I understand that some hand held fine grit sandpaper should still be used to polish up the head after this initial sanding even when that is done using a jig. 

I'm not after recommendations as to how I should do it. I'm interested in a discussion on your experience and pros & cons of doing it one way or the other. 

Thanks  --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

For reshaping, I use an oscillating spindle sander. However, if the hammer is tapered, I rest the hammer on a surface that is angled to match the degree of taper to keep the strike point squared to the sides. When detailing a previously hung untapered set, I'll reshape then taper and arc the tails.

An palm sander is a quick way to reshape while on the rail, followed by finish hand-sanding. However, this is best done in the treble where there is no rake to the hammer. I'll do this in the bass and tenor if the set is of no consequence.

A Wahl Mini Sander is a nice finish detailer:
File Under Sander?
Mine is corded which seems to be out of production and only available battery powered now. Try MicroMark.com

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-05-2017 07:54
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

Geoff, 

While hand filing techniques are essential to have, resurfacing hammer using either a drill press or an oscillating drum sander has much to recommend it. Whenever I have the hammer assemblies off for repining anyway, I do the resurfacing this way. Using an appropriate jig (available from Chris Brown, or you could fashion your own), the task goes quickly and yields excellent results. Perhaps the most valuable thing about this approach in my shop is that in a mere hour or two, novices can learn to file hammers well. (For most newbies, the learning curve for doing a decent job filing hammers by hand is far, far greater.)

Advantages include:

--crown (and entire surface, for that matter) guaranteed to be perpendicular to sides--and no, hammer taper does not skew this

--the feedback loop on symmetry and condition of the sanded surface is vastly superior to when the hammers are on the rail

--it's fast!

Obviously, Chris does it this way, and Jon Page has posted about it as well. (Thanks for the tip about the oscillating drum sander for this, Jon!) I know other accomplished technicians who use this approach as well.

Hope this encourages you to give it a shot. I am eternally grateful to the tech who introduced me to this.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2017 23:23
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

I personally have never filed hammers using anything but hand held sandpaper and sanding sticks. I tried it once using a Moto tool and some junk hammers but all I accomplished was gouging out a big dent. Not good. However, I know of people that do what I think I consider reasonable work using a rotary sanding attachment in a Dremel tool or Moto tool. I have also seen videos of techs using a jig and a drill press to keep the hammer flat and to add some control over how the head actually passes squarely over the rotating sandpaper. I understand that hand filing allows us ultimate control over pulling off the felt in clean layers, but it also means that we have to be really extra careful to make sure the surface remains flat and square with the sides. Not always easy. A hand held Dremal, or Moto tool would do little to prevent maintaining that square, although the surface would be nice and flat. Using a jig, as I see it, would accomplish both. But I'm curious as to how effective that kind of filing is in removing felt in clean layers. I'm also curious as to whether it makes any difference if the felt is taken off in layers if the flatness and squareness is maintained cleanly and the result is clean and smooth. And yes, I understand that some hand held fine grit sandpaper should still be used to polish up the head after this initial sanding even when that is done using a jig. 

I'm not after recommendations as to how I should do it. I'm interested in a discussion on your experience and pros & cons of doing it one way or the other. 

Thanks  --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

I cannot speak personally to the used of the Dremel hammer sanding device.
Many years ago, however, a mini-belt sander was available to the trade for the purpose of filing hammers.
I own one of these devices. It works well and it works quickly.
It has been out of production for over twenty years...... until now.
Pictured is one from the original production and also one from new production.
These are so new that they are not yet assembled.
The sander is used with a flexible shaft tool, such as a Foredom, and a variable speed control.
They are available from Dale Erwin through Erwin's Piano (www.erwinspiano.com).

------------------------------
John Gallen
OWNER
1040 Pianos
S Windham CT
860-428-6045
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-05-2017 07:54
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

Geoff, 

While hand filing techniques are essential to have, resurfacing hammer using either a drill press or an oscillating drum sander has much to recommend it. Whenever I have the hammer assemblies off for repining anyway, I do the resurfacing this way. Using an appropriate jig (available from Chris Brown, or you could fashion your own), the task goes quickly and yields excellent results. Perhaps the most valuable thing about this approach in my shop is that in a mere hour or two, novices can learn to file hammers well. (For most newbies, the learning curve for doing a decent job filing hammers by hand is far, far greater.)

Advantages include:

--crown (and entire surface, for that matter) guaranteed to be perpendicular to sides--and no, hammer taper does not skew this

--the feedback loop on symmetry and condition of the sanded surface is vastly superior to when the hammers are on the rail

--it's fast!

Obviously, Chris does it this way, and Jon Page has posted about it as well. (Thanks for the tip about the oscillating drum sander for this, Jon!) I know other accomplished technicians who use this approach as well.

Hope this encourages you to give it a shot. I am eternally grateful to the tech who introduced me to this.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2017 23:23
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

I personally have never filed hammers using anything but hand held sandpaper and sanding sticks. I tried it once using a Moto tool and some junk hammers but all I accomplished was gouging out a big dent. Not good. However, I know of people that do what I think I consider reasonable work using a rotary sanding attachment in a Dremel tool or Moto tool. I have also seen videos of techs using a jig and a drill press to keep the hammer flat and to add some control over how the head actually passes squarely over the rotating sandpaper. I understand that hand filing allows us ultimate control over pulling off the felt in clean layers, but it also means that we have to be really extra careful to make sure the surface remains flat and square with the sides. Not always easy. A hand held Dremal, or Moto tool would do little to prevent maintaining that square, although the surface would be nice and flat. Using a jig, as I see it, would accomplish both. But I'm curious as to how effective that kind of filing is in removing felt in clean layers. I'm also curious as to whether it makes any difference if the felt is taken off in layers if the flatness and squareness is maintained cleanly and the result is clean and smooth. And yes, I understand that some hand held fine grit sandpaper should still be used to polish up the head after this initial sanding even when that is done using a jig. 

I'm not after recommendations as to how I should do it. I'm interested in a discussion on your experience and pros & cons of doing it one way or the other. 

Thanks  --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Hi John,

I just ordered one of the new mini-belt sanders from Dale Erwin yesterday. Don't know that I would put it in the hands of a novice, but it should be fun for me to play with.

You wrote: "Pictured is one from the original production and also one from new production." Did you intend to include an attachment that contained these images? If so, they did not make the trip into my mailbox along with your post.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-06-2017 23:36
From: John Gallen
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

I cannot speak personally to the used of the Dremel hammer sanding device.
Many years ago, however, a mini-belt sander was available to the trade for the purpose of filing hammers.
I own one of these devices. It works well and it works quickly.
It has been out of production for over twenty years...... until now.
Pictured is one from the original production and also one from new production.
These are so new that they are not yet assembled.
The sander is used with a flexible shaft tool, such as a Foredom, and a variable speed control.
They are available from Dale Erwin through Erwin's Piano (www.erwinspiano.com).

------------------------------
John Gallen
OWNER
1040 Pianos
S Windham CT
860-428-6045
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-05-2017 07:54
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

Geoff, 

While hand filing techniques are essential to have, resurfacing hammer using either a drill press or an oscillating drum sander has much to recommend it. Whenever I have the hammer assemblies off for repining anyway, I do the resurfacing this way. Using an appropriate jig (available from Chris Brown, or you could fashion your own), the task goes quickly and yields excellent results. Perhaps the most valuable thing about this approach in my shop is that in a mere hour or two, novices can learn to file hammers well. (For most newbies, the learning curve for doing a decent job filing hammers by hand is far, far greater.)

Advantages include:

--crown (and entire surface, for that matter) guaranteed to be perpendicular to sides--and no, hammer taper does not skew this

--the feedback loop on symmetry and condition of the sanded surface is vastly superior to when the hammers are on the rail

--it's fast!

Obviously, Chris does it this way, and Jon Page has posted about it as well. (Thanks for the tip about the oscillating drum sander for this, Jon!) I know other accomplished technicians who use this approach as well.

Hope this encourages you to give it a shot. I am eternally grateful to the tech who introduced me to this.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2017 23:23
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

I personally have never filed hammers using anything but hand held sandpaper and sanding sticks. I tried it once using a Moto tool and some junk hammers but all I accomplished was gouging out a big dent. Not good. However, I know of people that do what I think I consider reasonable work using a rotary sanding attachment in a Dremel tool or Moto tool. I have also seen videos of techs using a jig and a drill press to keep the hammer flat and to add some control over how the head actually passes squarely over the rotating sandpaper. I understand that hand filing allows us ultimate control over pulling off the felt in clean layers, but it also means that we have to be really extra careful to make sure the surface remains flat and square with the sides. Not always easy. A hand held Dremal, or Moto tool would do little to prevent maintaining that square, although the surface would be nice and flat. Using a jig, as I see it, would accomplish both. But I'm curious as to how effective that kind of filing is in removing felt in clean layers. I'm also curious as to whether it makes any difference if the felt is taken off in layers if the flatness and squareness is maintained cleanly and the result is clean and smooth. And yes, I understand that some hand held fine grit sandpaper should still be used to polish up the head after this initial sanding even when that is done using a jig. 

I'm not after recommendations as to how I should do it. I'm interested in a discussion on your experience and pros & cons of doing it one way or the other. 

Thanks  --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Thank you , Alan.
Photos attached now.

------------------------------
John Gallen
OWNER
1040 Pianos
S Windham CT
860-428-6045
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-07-2017 07:17
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

Hi John,

I just ordered one of the new mini-belt sanders from Dale Erwin yesterday. Don't know that I would put it in the hands of a novice, but it should be fun for me to play with.

You wrote: "Pictured is one from the original production and also one from new production." Did you intend to include an attachment that contained these images? If so, they did not make the trip into my mailbox along with your post.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-06-2017 23:36
From: John Gallen
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

I cannot speak personally to the used of the Dremel hammer sanding device.
Many years ago, however, a mini-belt sander was available to the trade for the purpose of filing hammers.
I own one of these devices. It works well and it works quickly.
It has been out of production for over twenty years...... until now.
Pictured is one from the original production and also one from new production.
These are so new that they are not yet assembled.
The sander is used with a flexible shaft tool, such as a Foredom, and a variable speed control.
They are available from Dale Erwin through Erwin's Piano (www.erwinspiano.com).

------------------------------
John Gallen
OWNER
1040 Pianos
S Windham CT
860-428-6045
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-05-2017 07:54
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

Geoff, 

While hand filing techniques are essential to have, resurfacing hammer using either a drill press or an oscillating drum sander has much to recommend it. Whenever I have the hammer assemblies off for repining anyway, I do the resurfacing this way. Using an appropriate jig (available from Chris Brown, or you could fashion your own), the task goes quickly and yields excellent results. Perhaps the most valuable thing about this approach in my shop is that in a mere hour or two, novices can learn to file hammers well. (For most newbies, the learning curve for doing a decent job filing hammers by hand is far, far greater.)

Advantages include:

--crown (and entire surface, for that matter) guaranteed to be perpendicular to sides--and no, hammer taper does not skew this

--the feedback loop on symmetry and condition of the sanded surface is vastly superior to when the hammers are on the rail

--it's fast!

Obviously, Chris does it this way, and Jon Page has posted about it as well. (Thanks for the tip about the oscillating drum sander for this, Jon!) I know other accomplished technicians who use this approach as well.

Hope this encourages you to give it a shot. I am eternally grateful to the tech who introduced me to this.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2017 23:23
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

I personally have never filed hammers using anything but hand held sandpaper and sanding sticks. I tried it once using a Moto tool and some junk hammers but all I accomplished was gouging out a big dent. Not good. However, I know of people that do what I think I consider reasonable work using a rotary sanding attachment in a Dremel tool or Moto tool. I have also seen videos of techs using a jig and a drill press to keep the hammer flat and to add some control over how the head actually passes squarely over the rotating sandpaper. I understand that hand filing allows us ultimate control over pulling off the felt in clean layers, but it also means that we have to be really extra careful to make sure the surface remains flat and square with the sides. Not always easy. A hand held Dremal, or Moto tool would do little to prevent maintaining that square, although the surface would be nice and flat. Using a jig, as I see it, would accomplish both. But I'm curious as to how effective that kind of filing is in removing felt in clean layers. I'm also curious as to whether it makes any difference if the felt is taken off in layers if the flatness and squareness is maintained cleanly and the result is clean and smooth. And yes, I understand that some hand held fine grit sandpaper should still be used to polish up the head after this initial sanding even when that is done using a jig. 

I'm not after recommendations as to how I should do it. I'm interested in a discussion on your experience and pros & cons of doing it one way or the other. 

Thanks  --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Although I don't use a Dremel on a regular basis for hammers, I did experiment on an old action to see what it would take. The first thing is of course an understanding of what is to be accomplished, something most reading this would have. However, I've seen Dremel filing jobs that indicated the person didn't understand what the end result should look like.

The second thing is equipment: if you need a Dremel and don't have one, get one with a range of adjustable speeds and not just one (or even two). You'll need the control. The next issue is the sanding tubes, and what I  discovered is that the Dremel type are something like 60 or 120 grit--not fine enough. They do not sell something fine enough. What I did was to cut strips of about 300/600 grit paper and glue them onto a sanding attachment. This will help you avoid taking unwanted gouges out of the felt. 60 or 120 grit may work for initial hand filing, but not for a Dremel. 

The third issue is practice: find an old action and practice. I know that using a Dremel is anathema to most technicians, but with the proper equipment, practice, and a patient and light touch, there's no reason you can't produce a nice filing job.

------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2017 23:23
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

I personally have never filed hammers using anything but hand held sandpaper and sanding sticks. I tried it once using a Moto tool and some junk hammers but all I accomplished was gouging out a big dent. Not good. However, I know of people that do what I think I consider reasonable work using a rotary sanding attachment in a Dremel tool or Moto tool. I have also seen videos of techs using a jig and a drill press to keep the hammer flat and to add some control over how the head actually passes squarely over the rotating sandpaper. I understand that hand filing allows us ultimate control over pulling off the felt in clean layers, but it also means that we have to be really extra careful to make sure the surface remains flat and square with the sides. Not always easy. A hand held Dremal, or Moto tool would do little to prevent maintaining that square, although the surface would be nice and flat. Using a jig, as I see it, would accomplish both. But I'm curious as to how effective that kind of filing is in removing felt in clean layers. I'm also curious as to whether it makes any difference if the felt is taken off in layers if the flatness and squareness is maintained cleanly and the result is clean and smooth. And yes, I understand that some hand held fine grit sandpaper should still be used to polish up the head after this initial sanding even when that is done using a jig. 

I'm not after recommendations as to how I should do it. I'm interested in a discussion on your experience and pros & cons of doing it one way or the other. 

Thanks  --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Just to clarify my original answer: I did it freehand, and not using any jigs.

------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-05-2017 11:48
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

Although I don't use a Dremel on a regular basis for hammers, I did experiment on an old action to see what it would take. The first thing is of course an understanding of what is to be accomplished, something most reading this would have. However, I've seen Dremel filing jobs that indicated the person didn't understand what the end result should look like.

The second thing is equipment: if you need a Dremel and don't have one, get one with a range of adjustable speeds and not just one (or even two). You'll need the control. The next issue is the sanding tubes, and what I  discovered is that the Dremel type are something like 60 or 120 grit--not fine enough. They do not sell something fine enough. What I did was to cut strips of about 300/600 grit paper and glue them onto a sanding attachment. This will help you avoid taking unwanted gouges out of the felt. 60 or 120 grit may work for initial hand filing, but not for a Dremel. 

The third issue is practice: find an old action and practice. I know that using a Dremel is anathema to most technicians, but with the proper equipment, practice, and a patient and light touch, there's no reason you can't produce a nice filing job.

------------------------------
Scott Cole
Talent OR
541-601-9033
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2017 23:23
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

I personally have never filed hammers using anything but hand held sandpaper and sanding sticks. I tried it once using a Moto tool and some junk hammers but all I accomplished was gouging out a big dent. Not good. However, I know of people that do what I think I consider reasonable work using a rotary sanding attachment in a Dremel tool or Moto tool. I have also seen videos of techs using a jig and a drill press to keep the hammer flat and to add some control over how the head actually passes squarely over the rotating sandpaper. I understand that hand filing allows us ultimate control over pulling off the felt in clean layers, but it also means that we have to be really extra careful to make sure the surface remains flat and square with the sides. Not always easy. A hand held Dremal, or Moto tool would do little to prevent maintaining that square, although the surface would be nice and flat. Using a jig, as I see it, would accomplish both. But I'm curious as to how effective that kind of filing is in removing felt in clean layers. I'm also curious as to whether it makes any difference if the felt is taken off in layers if the flatness and squareness is maintained cleanly and the result is clean and smooth. And yes, I understand that some hand held fine grit sandpaper should still be used to polish up the head after this initial sanding even when that is done using a jig. 

I'm not after recommendations as to how I should do it. I'm interested in a discussion on your experience and pros & cons of doing it one way or the other. 

Thanks  --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Thanks for the discussion. Looks like it's time for me to make a new tool investment and find a bag of junk hammers to practice on. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2017 23:23
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

I personally have never filed hammers using anything but hand held sandpaper and sanding sticks. I tried it once using a Moto tool and some junk hammers but all I accomplished was gouging out a big dent. Not good. However, I know of people that do what I think I consider reasonable work using a rotary sanding attachment in a Dremel tool or Moto tool. I have also seen videos of techs using a jig and a drill press to keep the hammer flat and to add some control over how the head actually passes squarely over the rotating sandpaper. I understand that hand filing allows us ultimate control over pulling off the felt in clean layers, but it also means that we have to be really extra careful to make sure the surface remains flat and square with the sides. Not always easy. A hand held Dremal, or Moto tool would do little to prevent maintaining that square, although the surface would be nice and flat. Using a jig, as I see it, would accomplish both. But I'm curious as to how effective that kind of filing is in removing felt in clean layers. I'm also curious as to whether it makes any difference if the felt is taken off in layers if the flatness and squareness is maintained cleanly and the result is clean and smooth. And yes, I understand that some hand held fine grit sandpaper should still be used to polish up the head after this initial sanding even when that is done using a jig. 

I'm not after recommendations as to how I should do it. I'm interested in a discussion on your experience and pros & cons of doing it one way or the other. 

Thanks  --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

I  believe the most important aspect of this work is to end up with as straight and parallel plane across the strike points of the hammers as possible. For this reason, I like to always finish my hammer shaping with a gang paddle method. Years ago I bought this set of rectangular paddles from Flugelbauer. They are very handy because they double as a straight edge so you can quickly assess  the parallel state of the strike line. 

This becomes a very efficient way to address string to hammer fit which is one of the main reasons we reshape hammers in the first place. I regularly come across  what appear to be nicely shaped hammers that don't mate well with the strings. Since the goal is well mated hammers and strings, we need to keep that in mind throughout the process. 

You can get fairly good results with gang filing using strips, especially the sanding film available through pianoforte supply. But the rigidity, straightness and width of the paddles is an advantage when putting that final dress on the crowns. Unfortunately I'm not sure these are available anymore. But they should be easy enough to make. 



------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-07-2017 11:43
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

Thanks for the discussion. Looks like it's time for me to make a new tool investment and find a bag of junk hammers to practice on. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2017 23:23
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

I personally have never filed hammers using anything but hand held sandpaper and sanding sticks. I tried it once using a Moto tool and some junk hammers but all I accomplished was gouging out a big dent. Not good. However, I know of people that do what I think I consider reasonable work using a rotary sanding attachment in a Dremel tool or Moto tool. I have also seen videos of techs using a jig and a drill press to keep the hammer flat and to add some control over how the head actually passes squarely over the rotating sandpaper. I understand that hand filing allows us ultimate control over pulling off the felt in clean layers, but it also means that we have to be really extra careful to make sure the surface remains flat and square with the sides. Not always easy. A hand held Dremal, or Moto tool would do little to prevent maintaining that square, although the surface would be nice and flat. Using a jig, as I see it, would accomplish both. But I'm curious as to how effective that kind of filing is in removing felt in clean layers. I'm also curious as to whether it makes any difference if the felt is taken off in layers if the flatness and squareness is maintained cleanly and the result is clean and smooth. And yes, I understand that some hand held fine grit sandpaper should still be used to polish up the head after this initial sanding even when that is done using a jig. 

I'm not after recommendations as to how I should do it. I'm interested in a discussion on your experience and pros & cons of doing it one way or the other. 

Thanks  --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Now there's a valuable tip. I have these paddles, too, and like you I use them for finish work after I have done the first step sanding with my beloved Bösendorfer sanding stick. I never thought to use the edge as a straightedge. Great idea. Thanks.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-07-2017 13:53
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

I  believe the most important aspect of this work is to end up with as straight and parallel plane across the strike points of the hammers as possible. For this reason, I like to always finish my hammer shaping with a gang paddle method. Years ago I bought this set of rectangular paddles from Flugelbauer. They are very handy because they double as a straight edge so you can quickly assess  the parallel state of the strike line. 

This becomes a very efficient way to address string to hammer fit which is one of the main reasons we reshape hammers in the first place. I regularly come across  what appear to be nicely shaped hammers that don't mate well with the strings. Since the goal is well mated hammers and strings, we need to keep that in mind throughout the process. 

You can get fairly good results with gang filing using strips, especially the sanding film available through pianoforte supply. But the rigidity, straightness and width of the paddles is an advantage when putting that final dress on the crowns. Unfortunately I'm not sure these are available anymore. But they should be easy enough to make. 



------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-07-2017 11:43
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

Thanks for the discussion. Looks like it's time for me to make a new tool investment and find a bag of junk hammers to practice on. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2017 23:23
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

I personally have never filed hammers using anything but hand held sandpaper and sanding sticks. I tried it once using a Moto tool and some junk hammers but all I accomplished was gouging out a big dent. Not good. However, I know of people that do what I think I consider reasonable work using a rotary sanding attachment in a Dremel tool or Moto tool. I have also seen videos of techs using a jig and a drill press to keep the hammer flat and to add some control over how the head actually passes squarely over the rotating sandpaper. I understand that hand filing allows us ultimate control over pulling off the felt in clean layers, but it also means that we have to be really extra careful to make sure the surface remains flat and square with the sides. Not always easy. A hand held Dremal, or Moto tool would do little to prevent maintaining that square, although the surface would be nice and flat. Using a jig, as I see it, would accomplish both. But I'm curious as to how effective that kind of filing is in removing felt in clean layers. I'm also curious as to whether it makes any difference if the felt is taken off in layers if the flatness and squareness is maintained cleanly and the result is clean and smooth. And yes, I understand that some hand held fine grit sandpaper should still be used to polish up the head after this initial sanding even when that is done using a jig. 

I'm not after recommendations as to how I should do it. I'm interested in a discussion on your experience and pros & cons of doing it one way or the other. 

Thanks  --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message------

Thanks for the discussion. Looks like it's time for me to make a new tool investment and find a bag of junk hammers to practice on. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Geoff, I pretty much agree with your thinking on this. I have an aluminum dremel tool attachment that I used to use a lot on those very old upright hammer filing jobs--and there are 3 different "setting" on this tool (basically 3 different openings of different width openings) The least aggressive window does not take that much felt off at once, and with a finer grit drum in the Dremel it is quite controllable. I primarily used it to "rough in" those big huge upright hammers or on super old grands that needed tons of felt removed from shoulders.  I really never use it anymore because those old pianos just do not play a big part of my current clientele. 

There is also that special nifty tool that Dale Erwin just began selling again with that mini-belt sander--it uses a Fordom tool though and I personally just have very little need for quick and dirty work. I can do amazingly fast work using rough sandpaper strips and paddles in the bass as you mentioned. Perhaps it just boils down to how much of the older pianos a tech currently does or expects to do. Fun topic. 

I just read you post again and I'm sorry I have really zero experience using a spindle sander or whatever to keep it square--hmm.... I know other techs to discuss this; perhaps others will chime in. 

------------------------------
[Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
[Staff Techician]
[Texas Tech Univ]
[Lubbock] [TX]
[8067783962]
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2017 23:23
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

I personally have never filed hammers using anything but hand held sandpaper and sanding sticks. I tried it once using a Moto tool and some junk hammers but all I accomplished was gouging out a big dent. Not good. However, I know of people that do what I think I consider reasonable work using a rotary sanding attachment in a Dremel tool or Moto tool. I have also seen videos of techs using a jig and a drill press to keep the hammer flat and to add some control over how the head actually passes squarely over the rotating sandpaper. I understand that hand filing allows us ultimate control over pulling off the felt in clean layers, but it also means that we have to be really extra careful to make sure the surface remains flat and square with the sides. Not always easy. A hand held Dremal, or Moto tool would do little to prevent maintaining that square, although the surface would be nice and flat. Using a jig, as I see it, would accomplish both. But I'm curious as to how effective that kind of filing is in removing felt in clean layers. I'm also curious as to whether it makes any difference if the felt is taken off in layers if the flatness and squareness is maintained cleanly and the result is clean and smooth. And yes, I understand that some hand held fine grit sandpaper should still be used to polish up the head after this initial sanding even when that is done using a jig. 

I'm not after recommendations as to how I should do it. I'm interested in a discussion on your experience and pros & cons of doing it one way or the other. 

Thanks  --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

So sorry! when I clicked on "view thread" I saw NONE of these posts!! Yipes! My bad

------------------------------
[Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
[Staff Techician]
[Texas Tech Univ]
[Lubbock] [TX]
[8067783962]
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-09-2017 12:48
From: Kevin Fortenberry
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

Geoff, I pretty much agree with your thinking on this. I have an aluminum dremel tool attachment that I used to use a lot on those very old upright hammer filing jobs--and there are 3 different "setting" on this tool (basically 3 different openings of different width openings) The least aggressive window does not take that much felt off at once, and with a finer grit drum in the Dremel it is quite controllable. I primarily used it to "rough in" those big huge upright hammers or on super old grands that needed tons of felt removed from shoulders.  I really never use it anymore because those old pianos just do not play a big part of my current clientele. 

There is also that special nifty tool that Dale Erwin just began selling again with that mini-belt sander--it uses a Fordom tool though and I personally just have very little need for quick and dirty work. I can do amazingly fast work using rough sandpaper strips and paddles in the bass as you mentioned. Perhaps it just boils down to how much of the older pianos a tech currently does or expects to do. Fun topic. 

I just read you post again and I'm sorry I have really zero experience using a spindle sander or whatever to keep it square--hmm.... I know other techs to discuss this; perhaps others will chime in. 

------------------------------
[Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
[Staff Techician]
[Texas Tech Univ]
[Lubbock] [TX]
[8067783962]
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2017 23:23
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

I personally have never filed hammers using anything but hand held sandpaper and sanding sticks. I tried it once using a Moto tool and some junk hammers but all I accomplished was gouging out a big dent. Not good. However, I know of people that do what I think I consider reasonable work using a rotary sanding attachment in a Dremel tool or Moto tool. I have also seen videos of techs using a jig and a drill press to keep the hammer flat and to add some control over how the head actually passes squarely over the rotating sandpaper. I understand that hand filing allows us ultimate control over pulling off the felt in clean layers, but it also means that we have to be really extra careful to make sure the surface remains flat and square with the sides. Not always easy. A hand held Dremal, or Moto tool would do little to prevent maintaining that square, although the surface would be nice and flat. Using a jig, as I see it, would accomplish both. But I'm curious as to how effective that kind of filing is in removing felt in clean layers. I'm also curious as to whether it makes any difference if the felt is taken off in layers if the flatness and squareness is maintained cleanly and the result is clean and smooth. And yes, I understand that some hand held fine grit sandpaper should still be used to polish up the head after this initial sanding even when that is done using a jig. 

I'm not after recommendations as to how I should do it. I'm interested in a discussion on your experience and pros & cons of doing it one way or the other. 

Thanks  --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

I have never liked the Dremel attachment from the supply houses. I've always completed this job by hand, until I found this about 5 years ago. 

The belt point is nice enough to get close to the bottom of the hammer without removing dampers on uprights. Like others have mentioned, I now use the Foredom with this attachment and control the speed with a foot pedal. This allows great control. Dale's tool looks interesting, because of the guide to keep the tool square to the side of the hammer.

I've developed a skill with the Foredom tool that I will never go backwards. However, I still complete the final filing by hand with home-aid sand paddles. 

By the way, if it is a light sanding I will always go by hand.

FOREDOM BELT SANDER ATTACHMENT KIT AK797230 WITH ACCESSORIES and HANDPIECE H.30 | eBay

eBay		remove preview
FOREDOM BELT SANDER ATTACHMENT KIT AK797230 WITH ACCESSORIES and HANDPIECE H.30 | eBay The AK797230 includes Foredom's Belt Sander Attachment, the H.30 Handpiece with HPCK-0 Chuck Key, and 10 Belts. A 180 grit belt comes installed and there are 3 each of 100, 180, and 240 grit belts. It is an all metal, quality-machined aluminum device that attaches with ease over the top of the supplied H.30® handpiece (also fits H.30SJ slip joint and H.30H square drive models). View this on eBay >

------------------------------
Joel Klar, RPT
Palm Bay FL 32907
321-632-8823
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-09-2017 12:58
From: Kevin Fortenberry
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

So sorry! when I clicked on "view thread" I saw NONE of these posts!! Yipes! My bad

------------------------------
[Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
[Staff Techician]
[Texas Tech Univ]
[Lubbock] [TX]
[8067783962]
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-09-2017 12:48
From: Kevin Fortenberry
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

Geoff, I pretty much agree with your thinking on this. I have an aluminum dremel tool attachment that I used to use a lot on those very old upright hammer filing jobs--and there are 3 different "setting" on this tool (basically 3 different openings of different width openings) The least aggressive window does not take that much felt off at once, and with a finer grit drum in the Dremel it is quite controllable. I primarily used it to "rough in" those big huge upright hammers or on super old grands that needed tons of felt removed from shoulders.  I really never use it anymore because those old pianos just do not play a big part of my current clientele. 

There is also that special nifty tool that Dale Erwin just began selling again with that mini-belt sander--it uses a Fordom tool though and I personally just have very little need for quick and dirty work. I can do amazingly fast work using rough sandpaper strips and paddles in the bass as you mentioned. Perhaps it just boils down to how much of the older pianos a tech currently does or expects to do. Fun topic. 

I just read you post again and I'm sorry I have really zero experience using a spindle sander or whatever to keep it square--hmm.... I know other techs to discuss this; perhaps others will chime in. 

------------------------------
[Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
[Staff Techician]
[Texas Tech Univ]
[Lubbock] [TX]
[8067783962]
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2017 23:23
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

I personally have never filed hammers using anything but hand held sandpaper and sanding sticks. I tried it once using a Moto tool and some junk hammers but all I accomplished was gouging out a big dent. Not good. However, I know of people that do what I think I consider reasonable work using a rotary sanding attachment in a Dremel tool or Moto tool. I have also seen videos of techs using a jig and a drill press to keep the hammer flat and to add some control over how the head actually passes squarely over the rotating sandpaper. I understand that hand filing allows us ultimate control over pulling off the felt in clean layers, but it also means that we have to be really extra careful to make sure the surface remains flat and square with the sides. Not always easy. A hand held Dremal, or Moto tool would do little to prevent maintaining that square, although the surface would be nice and flat. Using a jig, as I see it, would accomplish both. But I'm curious as to how effective that kind of filing is in removing felt in clean layers. I'm also curious as to whether it makes any difference if the felt is taken off in layers if the flatness and squareness is maintained cleanly and the result is clean and smooth. And yes, I understand that some hand held fine grit sandpaper should still be used to polish up the head after this initial sanding even when that is done using a jig. 

I'm not after recommendations as to how I should do it. I'm interested in a discussion on your experience and pros & cons of doing it one way or the other. 

Thanks  --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Mr Sykes: To start I favor a folded strip of dragon skin (perforated metal sheet) attached over the end of a stick. 

Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2017 23:23
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hand filing hammers vs using a jig

I personally have never filed hammers using anything but hand held sandpaper and sanding sticks. I tried it once using a Moto tool and some junk hammers but all I accomplished was gouging out a big dent. Not good. However, I know of people that do what I think I consider reasonable work using a rotary sanding attachment in a Dremel tool or Moto tool. I have also seen videos of techs using a jig and a drill press to keep the hammer flat and to add some control over how the head actually passes squarely over the rotating sandpaper. I understand that hand filing allows us ultimate control over pulling off the felt in clean layers, but it also means that we have to be really extra careful to make sure the surface remains flat and square with the sides. Not always easy. A hand held Dremal, or Moto tool would do little to prevent maintaining that square, although the surface would be nice and flat. Using a jig, as I see it, would accomplish both. But I'm curious as to how effective that kind of filing is in removing felt in clean layers. I'm also curious as to whether it makes any difference if the felt is taken off in layers if the flatness and squareness is maintained cleanly and the result is clean and smooth. And yes, I understand that some hand held fine grit sandpaper should still be used to polish up the head after this initial sanding even when that is done using a jig. 

I'm not after recommendations as to how I should do it. I'm interested in a discussion on your experience and pros & cons of doing it one way or the other. 

Thanks  --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------