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Steinway's Dead Octave on a Graph?

  • 1.  Steinway's Dead Octave on a Graph?

    Posted 11-12-2016 14:57

    On a Steinway L at A-440 pitch. I placed several digital gauges on various ribs. Like so2tpTe5q4Qrm4Vu7K61es_steinwayL2 023a.jpg

    Then I took their readings after removing the strings. Afterwhich, I then measured the crown. This one was pretty good at a 56' Radius.

    Then i plotted the graph.LtzRV5lORwq2IHQmCENf_Steinways dead octave..jpg

    I drew the red line to show how the curve should look. As you can tell, 3 ribs are overloaded. In fact the whole soundboard (in my opinion) is under engineered.CCPzdSzBSjSf8ajnXYs5_Steinway L analyzer.jpg

    There should be at least 7.8 Square inches of mass, which is also reflected by the high stress level (it should be 1,999). 

    So this board will fatigue and the first sign of that is the dead octave.

    Why would you copy that?

    ------------------------------
    ChrisChernobieff
    Chernobieff Piano and Harpsichord Mfg.
    Lenoir City TN
    865-986-7720
    chrisppff@gmail.com
    www.facebook.com/ChernobieffPianoandHarpsichordMFG
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Steinway's Dead Octave on a Graph?

    Posted 11-16-2016 14:17

    Ah, what the heck, I spent the last two evenings revamping my software. Now i can chart the crowns movement and see which ribs are not engineered correctly. here's the same Steinway L. 

    The top line is the current crown. The red line is where it goes when loaded. And the top of the grey area is the theoretical flattest the board can be to accept that load before flattening out. Notice that by correcting the faulty engineering of the original that the range increased. And that the under-engineered ribs were fixed.V2zcnuhGTa2yEIxsODg5_steinwayL1 original1.jpg

    HYp1zD9aSEOO4vsT3Zgn_steinwayL1 modified1.jpg

    ------------------------------
    ChrisChernobieff
    Chernobieff Piano and Harpsichord Mfg.
    Lenoir City TN
    865-986-7720
    chrisppff@gmail.com
    www.facebook.com/ChernobieffPianoandHarpsichordMFG



  • 3.  RE: Steinway's Dead Octave on a Graph?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-17-2016 09:58

    Can you show the rib dimensions before and after your change?

     

    Thanks

     

    David Love

    www.davidlovepianos.com

     






  • 4.  RE: Steinway's Dead Octave on a Graph?

    Posted 11-29-2016 10:48

    This cannot be strictly speaking an American Steinway soundboard engineering problem.

    As an insider looking out, there is no such thing as an American Steinway Dead Octave. The greatest hurdle is dealing with capo buzz, which is precisely the opposite problem, from within. As an outsider looking in, the dead octave in American Steinway is a problem.

    Two major problems appear as an outsider looking in. As an outsider looking in, the first step in fixing the problem seems to be installing parts foreign to American Steinway, which will not ameliorate the problem, but rather, exacerbate it. These are parts the manufacturer may or may not direct in voicing appropriately. The first thing one is directed to do by outsiders is

    • Crown needling, not crown hardening, above the tenor break.

    This will augment the problem. The other is:

    • Reducing size of shanks earlier as we ascend in the scale. This is happening with shanks provided by companies foreign to the manufacturer, American Steinway, as well.   

    Currently supply houses and shank manufacturers have not created protocol for determining the stage at which the shanks are reduced in size by the manufacturer. Installing the shanks of reduced mass in the “Dead octave of American Steinway” will significantly reduce the power of that octave.

    It is not only restored American Steinways that can suffer from this problem of reducing the mass of shanks prematurely. At one time the soundboard of American Steinway was engineered to respond to a soft hammer with hardener. It is difficult to determine what modification American Steinway is making to rib dimensions in order to compensate for the harder hammers it is attempting to introduce by emulating Hamburg Steinway in its current history.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480



  • 5.  RE: Steinway's Dead Octave on a Graph?

    Posted 11-30-2016 18:30
    Benjamin,
    As a general rule of discourse, I have difficulty when people state opinion as indisputable fact, as you have here - especially when my opinion as to what the facts are is at variance, at least in part, to yours.
    (A little more clarity in stating exactly what your opinions are would be helpful, as well.)
    Just saying.....

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 6.  RE: Steinway's Dead Octave on a Graph?

    Posted 12-01-2016 20:05

    Ok Paul. In first person.

    What is the problem with Steinway, i my opinion? It is not a dead octave.

    I perhaps claimed too much about voicing procedures, hammer manufacturing, and shank tapering manufacturing and distribution. The fact is a soundboard should not be engineered around mistakes in these areas. The reason I brought up your thoughts on the discussion “Last Minute Switch to Fazioli…” is to find a way to agree, and participate, in what you very well may be absolutely correct about. Piano technicians frequently prepare pianos wrong in doing work having nothing to do with soundboards to pianos.

    I thought of starting a new thread, “What is the problem with Steinway.” It is not a dead octave. You can kill the ostensible dead octave on any piano with voicing techniques trade schools rave about. The problem with Steinway is best summed up in verse 3 from the “Dao De Jing:"

    (Keeping the people at rest)

    Not to value and employ men of superior ability is the way to keep the people from rivalry among themselves; not to prize articles which are difficult to procure is the way to keep them from becoming thieves; not to show them what is likely to excite their desires is the way to keep their minds from disorder. Therefore the sage, in the exercise of his government, empties their minds, fills their bellies, weakens their wills, and strengthens their bones. He constantly (tries to) keep them without knowledge and without desire, and where there are those who have knowledge, to keep them from presuming to act (on it). When there is this abstinence from action, good order is universal.[1]

    No, the biggest problem for Steinway is its unparalleled reputation. Steinway turns men into animals fighting over bare bones. Innumerable “Steinway artists” don’t want to be on the list but stay there because to not be one is to not have a career in the arts. This is a horrible position to be in as Steinway, to have so discouraged opposition. The problem is not “the dead octave.” It is not nepotism. It is not innovation or tradition. It is not inferiority or superiority.

    The best thing people can do for Steinway problems is not to reengineer pianos to compensate for “Dead octaves.” I’ve seen people create dead octaves on Yamaha concert grands voicing. No, the best thing people can do for Steinway is recognize the fact that a whole host of other manufacturers are doing things for pianos as good and better.

    The Steinway family is the most dysfunctional corporate family on the planet because so many people are fighting to get in it, and behaving like beasts in order to do so. The best I can do as someone born into Steinway is to express my appreciation for the superiority of other products.

    Part of the reason people go crazy with needles these days is they refuse to tune aurally, and lose all sense of the art in our work. 

    [1] ctext.org/dao-de-jing

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480



  • 7.  RE: Steinway's Dead Octave on a Graph?

    Posted 12-01-2016 23:46

    Just to clarify a little. I'm not making a cause and effect case. As there are many links in the chain and cause could be argued ad nauseam. I'm just making an observation. In this case I am working with a Steinway L  that appears to have some ribs that are not strong enough to hold the load imposed on them. And that is figured at a 1.5°. On this particular piano, the downbearing was severe at a 2.5° angle, even further exacerbating the problem. If I was installing a new board I would increase the mass of the 3 ribs ( Just a little taller is all that is required) so they could perform their task. But since I am working with the board it has, and now armed with the knowledge of the deficiency, I will reduce the downbearing to a 1° and that should help in regaining equilibrium and freeing up the board.

    ------------------------------
    ChrisChernobieff
    Chernobieff Piano and Harpsichord Mfg.
    Lenoir City TN
    865-986-7720
    chrisppff@gmail.com
    www.facebook.com/ChernobieffPianoandHarpsichordMFG



  • 8.  RE: Steinway's Dead Octave on a Graph?

    Posted 12-03-2016 05:47

    Chris, 

    Are you sure about that?

    The L got discontinued because it couldn't sell. Was this the cause? I don't think so.

    The L was in the uncomfortable position of not being a grand, not being a baby grand. You couldn't call it a real grand, but it didn't save space either. They are decent pianos comparatively speaking, but will suffer from age and being out of production.

    The jar is just too full with Steinway. It is easy to be complacent with it as Paul observed once you have the status. Seeing the glass half empty is better. Beauty is not in the eye of the beholder. Ugly is ugly. I've had to try harder ever since I left. Many Steinway C&A techs got it way too easy to be highly esteemed as they are, not because of what they work with, but how most are esteemed. Most of us couldn't begin to get away with what many Steinway C&A techs do. A lot of times that is ETD tuning, contrary to popular notion. The reputation is their biggest downfall.

    I am more impressed by the technicians outside Steinway with isolated exceptions. Way more. This complacency has been an evil rising in Steinway ever since a lot of other companies started to decline. 

    In this way Steinway lost their way...

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480



  • 9.  RE: Steinway's Dead Octave on a Graph?

    Posted 12-04-2016 19:03

    Hello Benjamin, 

    I apologize for being delayed in responding to your thoughtful email. Things have been very busy around here. 

    Although we may have some disagreements as to the particulars of piano technology, we seem to have much in common in terms of experience and the degree of passion we both bring to the subject. 

    Although I never worked directly for Steinway (although I did get a job offer to work at the Hall in 1980 for the princely sum of $5.75 per hour!),  I had an association with the Boston dealer for more than 20 years - performing tuning, prep., repair, and concert work. Though never an insider, as you put it, I did see enough to know it would never have been a good fit for me. I agree with your assessment of the corporate culture at Steinway, and the problems that a relaxed sense of entitlement has fostered. 

    I only now realize that I came to this thread a little late, and can bring nothing to the subject of soundboard design as it relates to the dead zone on Steinway grand pianos. I have never installed a soundboard, and have focused my career on tone development from the keyboard end of things. 

    As I see it, even the most dedicated among us, who work tirelessly toward improved methods and protocol are working more in the realm of art that of science. I'm a big believer in the creative process, but I think we can agree that more science, in the form of controlled experimentation, could avoid so much of the back and forth that goes on on this blog. 

    There most definitely are some things about our approach to the work that we disagree on - with each of us equally convince of the rectitude of our own methods. The question for me is: How  better to get to a resolution of such disagreements than by employing the scientific method through controlled experiments? Speaking for myself, finding the best methods to achieve our goals as technicians is so much more important than protecting my ego (of which I have no shortage in that category), should it turn out that any of my dearly held opinions should prove to be flawed. 

    I would like to see the PTG show some leadership in getting to hard and fast results - rather than simply refereeing verbal brawls on the internet. 

    Enough said for now. I'm more than happy to keep up the dialogue. Let me know your thoughts. 

    Paul

    ------------------------------
    Paul M. Rattigan
    Senior Concert Piano Technician
    Cambridge MA
    781-659-4681



  • 10.  RE: Steinway's Dead Octave on a Graph?

    Posted 12-06-2016 05:03

    Paul,

    Science is such a loaded word to-day. I am having difficulty responding because you used it. This will sound cryptic without meaning to be so.

    Generally Hayek is thought to have alienated himself, to be revered and feared, for being a bloodthirsty capitalist in a dialectic with Keynes. I disagree.

    He challenged the science that William James created by following Comte and creating a positivistic psychology. That is why Hayek got abandoned. This was James' very goal and claim. At the heart of every 12 step group. Celebrate positivism. Ever since everything is justified and verified by the physical sciences, Orient and Occident. The Asians are flocking the ivy league to be doctors and practice a medicine founded on the physical sciences. But medicine is one of the 5 Arts of Chinese metaphysics, not the physical sciences. 

    These sort of arguments buy into that sort of worldview. The counseling movement in the seminaries has convinced Evangelicals theology and metaphysics are worthless. I just don't have time or authority to explain. 

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480



  • 11.  RE: Steinway's Dead Octave on a Graph?

    Posted 12-06-2016 12:20

    Paul,

    Science is such a loaded word to-day. I am having difficulty responding because you used it. This will sound cryptic without meaning to be so.

    Generally Hayek is thought to have alienated himself, to be revered and feared, for being a bloodthirsty capitalist in a dialectic with Keynes. I disagree.

    He challenged the science that William James created by following Comte and creating a positivistic psychology. That is why Hayek got abandoned. This was James' very goal and claim. At the heart of every 12 step group. Celebrate positivism. Ever since everything is justified and verified by the physical sciences, Orient and Occident. The Asians are flocking the ivy league to be doctors and practice a medicine founded on the physical sciences. But medicine is one of the 5 Arts of Chinese metaphysics, not the physical sciences. 

    These sort of arguments buy into that sort of worldview. The counseling movement in the seminaries has convinced Evangelicals theology and metaphysics are worthless. I just don't have time or authority to explain. 

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480



  • 12.  RE: Steinway's Dead Octave on a Graph?

    Posted 12-07-2016 19:17

    Well Benjamin, science is a good and honorable word in my world. I wish you peace in yours. 

    ------------------------------
    Paul M. Rattigan
    Senior Concert Piano Technician
    Cambridge MA
    781-659-4681