CAUT

Hello, all,

I am helping a college (not mine) decide what to charge outside groups when their rental group requests one (or many) pianos. There seems to be general agreement that pianos are too valuable to include causally along with desks and chairs, but different places I know use different systems. They are looking for ideas from other school situations. In a perfect world, the idea is to have money go to a place where it accumulates, to help defray the eventual cost of annual maintenance, parts replacement, etc. Sometimes the tuning fee is included, sometimes the tuner is paid separately.

I know one place, a university performing arts venue that only has concert grands, who charge an extra $200 for each piano that renters request, and $185 of that goes to pay the contract tuner (who invoices the hall). Another place charges a flat $50 per piano (which adds up, for example when an MTA-type group uses a dozen rooms) and tunings are separate. That way, some groups that have casual use of the piano may choose not to have it tuned for their needs. Other groups have them all tuned, and are invoiced directly by the technician.

Any more ideas out there? Thanks in advance, it will be interesting to see how you all handle the financials.

Kathy Smith

Hello everyone,

Boy, is this a timely topic. I have struggled with this problem for a couple years now at SFSU. My former boss did not take on this issue, but the new boss is very interested in the fact that our rooms, equipment such as stands and chairs, and of course pianos get used by outside groups. He just told me the other day that he checked with the Dean of our college, and nope, we get none of the rental fees, as I had suspected. We are struggling with severe budget shortages, so it seems only fair that there be some system of reimbursement so that we don't get stuck with all of the maintenance costs. Last year, one of the outside groups, a local chamber music society, nailed one of our grands with a coffee spill into the keys. (Magically, no one saw how it happened...) Although they immediately confessed (pretty much had to, because they couldn't continue using that piano and needed a new room) and even made noises like they would reimburse the music department for my time, ultimately the administration wussed out and decided not to charge them anything. Their reasoning was that since the group was a member of OLLI (Osher Lifelong Learning Institute) and OLLI is affiliated with SFSU, no penalty need apply. I was not pleased. No accountability, and I ended up having to rebush the keys on the department's nickel.

The problem is that the University Property Office is the entity that sets the rental fees, and according to the Special Events Coordinator it seems to be quite whimsical, depending on whether the group has any affiliation with SFSU, however tangential. He can never predict what the UPO plans to charge. I'm sure they are undervaluing the use of our pianos, and they don't realize what an attraction it is to have lots of good quality pianos in one place. If the people in charge don't understand what an asset having well-maintained pianos can be for a school, they also won't understand what's involved in high quality maintenance.

If any of you have ever received positive feedback from outside groups regarding the condition of the pianos at your school, this is further proof that you have an asset that needs to be correctly valued. I have found that groups renting out the music facilities at SFSU really want to be there because of the pianos. Why not press the advantage? Not to the point of gouging, but to remind everyone that pianos are not maintenance free.

It may take a while, but I'll be following up with this issue to find out how our school will be handling it. I would love to hear some ideas from the list on how to assess piano use fees.

Margie Williams
pnotuner@pacbell.net

"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing." (Unknown)


Original Message------

Hello, all,

I am helping a college (not mine) decide what to charge outside groups when their rental group requests one (or many) pianos. There seems to be general agreement that pianos are too valuable to include causally along with desks and chairs, but different places I know use different systems. They are looking for ideas from other school situations. In a perfect world, the idea is to have money go to a place where it accumulates, to help defray the eventual cost of annual maintenance, parts replacement, etc. Sometimes the tuning fee is included, sometimes the tuner is paid separately.

I know one place, a university performing arts venue that only has concert grands, who charge an extra $200 for each piano that renters request, and $185 of that goes to pay the contract tuner (who invoices the hall). Another place charges a flat $50 per piano (which adds up, for example when an MTA-type group uses a dozen rooms) and tunings are separate. That way, some groups that have casual use of the piano may choose not to have it tuned for their needs. Other groups have them all tuned, and are invoiced directly by the technician.

Any more ideas out there? Thanks in advance, it will be interesting to see how you all handle the financials.

Kathy Smith

I ended up having to rebush the keys on the department's nickel.

Margie

I'm not in a university, so I really can't really give any advice, but it seems that no one at your school is aware of how much it costs to maintain instruments, much less take care of mishaps, like the one you're talking about. This is where education become paramount. Figure out exactly how much it costs the university as far as your time is concerned to rebush the keys, and when they see the figure in black and white, they will get some idea of what they are "spending" giving away free space and use of facilities.   

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 11-08-2016 22:38
From: Margie Williams
Subject: rental fees

Hello everyone,

Boy, is this a timely topic. I have struggled with this problem for a couple years now at SFSU. My former boss did not take on this issue, but the new boss is very interested in the fact that our rooms, equipment such as stands and chairs, and of course pianos get used by outside groups. He just told me the other day that he checked with the Dean of our college, and nope, we get none of the rental fees, as I had suspected. We are struggling with severe budget shortages, so it seems only fair that there be some system of reimbursement so that we don't get stuck with all of the maintenance costs. Last year, one of the outside groups, a local chamber music society, nailed one of our grands with a coffee spill into the keys. (Magically, no one saw how it happened...) Although they immediately confessed (pretty much had to, because they couldn't continue using that piano and needed a new room) and even made noises like they would reimburse the music department for my time, ultimately the administration wussed out and decided not to charge them anything. Their reasoning was that since the group was a member of OLLI (Osher Lifelong Learning Institute) and OLLI is affiliated with SFSU, no penalty need apply. I was not pleased. No accountability, and I ended up having to rebush the keys on the department's nickel.

The problem is that the University Property Office is the entity that sets the rental fees, and according to the Special Events Coordinator it seems to be quite whimsical, depending on whether the group has any affiliation with SFSU, however tangential. He can never predict what the UPO plans to charge. I'm sure they are undervaluing the use of our pianos, and they don't realize what an attraction it is to have lots of good quality pianos in one place. If the people in charge don't understand what an asset having well-maintained pianos can be for a school, they also won't understand what's involved in high quality maintenance.

If any of you have ever received positive feedback from outside groups regarding the condition of the pianos at your school, this is further proof that you have an asset that needs to be correctly valued. I have found that groups renting out the music facilities at SFSU really want to be there because of the pianos. Why not press the advantage? Not to the point of gouging, but to remind everyone that pianos are not maintenance free.

It may take a while, but I'll be following up with this issue to find out how our school will be handling it. I would love to hear some ideas from the list on how to assess piano use fees.

Margie Williams
pnotuner@pacbell.net

"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing." (Unknown)

Original Message------

I ended up having to rebush the keys on the department's nickel.

Margie

I'm not in a university, so I really can't really give any advice, but it seems that no one at your school is aware of how much it costs to maintain instruments, much less take care of mishaps, like the one you're talking about. This is where education become paramount. Figure out exactly how much it costs the university as far as your time is concerned to rebush the keys, and when they see the figure in black and white, they will get some idea of what they are "spending" giving away free space and use of facilities.   

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Margie et alia,

I'm employed full-time at a state "supported" university in Cleveland Ohio. We have the same issues, and charge a fee for 'piano use'. Regardless of whether they have it tuned/serviced in any way, they pay the fee if they use the piano. There's a university entity called Conference Services that usually sets up outside group use, and they charge the fee which reverts back to our department. The Dean of our college has authority to 'lean on' Conf. Ser. to make sure that we get our money, and we haven't had many issues. We have one group which fairly regularly abuses their privileges and we are constantly picking up pieces after them, but this is mainly in terms of stage management, setting up chairs/music stands, and stage manager issues. The next step in dealing with their behavior is to set up a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU), which would spell out the details. We have this with other groups. Of course the chair is so overwhelmed with trying to run this under-funded and under-staffed department that the MOU hasn't happened. Mainly I think you need to have something in writing at the Dean/Chair level so you can refuse to let outside groups use your equipment. 

Hope this helps. It's a culture of entitlement and grandfathered-privilege out there ("Oh, we've never had to pay for THAT before...?") that doesn't get how much work is involved in maintenance of any kind-pianos, whatever.

Steve Kabat

------------------------------
Stephen Kabat
Lyndhurst OH
216-381-5662

Original Message:
Sent: 11-08-2016 22:38
From: Margie Williams
Subject: rental fees

Hello everyone,

Boy, is this a timely topic. I have struggled with this problem for a couple years now at SFSU. My former boss did not take on this issue, but the new boss is very interested in the fact that our rooms, equipment such as stands and chairs, and of course pianos get used by outside groups. He just told me the other day that he checked with the Dean of our college, and nope, we get none of the rental fees, as I had suspected. We are struggling with severe budget shortages, so it seems only fair that there be some system of reimbursement so that we don't get stuck with all of the maintenance costs. Last year, one of the outside groups, a local chamber music society, nailed one of our grands with a coffee spill into the keys. (Magically, no one saw how it happened...) Although they immediately confessed (pretty much had to, because they couldn't continue using that piano and needed a new room) and even made noises like they would reimburse the music department for my time, ultimately the administration wussed out and decided not to charge them anything. Their reasoning was that since the group was a member of OLLI (Osher Lifelong Learning Institute) and OLLI is affiliated with SFSU, no penalty need apply. I was not pleased. No accountability, and I ended up having to rebush the keys on the department's nickel.

The problem is that the University Property Office is the entity that sets the rental fees, and according to the Special Events Coordinator it seems to be quite whimsical, depending on whether the group has any affiliation with SFSU, however tangential. He can never predict what the UPO plans to charge. I'm sure they are undervaluing the use of our pianos, and they don't realize what an attraction it is to have lots of good quality pianos in one place. If the people in charge don't understand what an asset having well-maintained pianos can be for a school, they also won't understand what's involved in high quality maintenance.

If any of you have ever received positive feedback from outside groups regarding the condition of the pianos at your school, this is further proof that you have an asset that needs to be correctly valued. I have found that groups renting out the music facilities at SFSU really want to be there because of the pianos. Why not press the advantage? Not to the point of gouging, but to remind everyone that pianos are not maintenance free.

It may take a while, but I'll be following up with this issue to find out how our school will be handling it. I would love to hear some ideas from the list on how to assess piano use fees.

Margie Williams
pnotuner@pacbell.net

"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing." (Unknown)

Original Message------

Hello everyone,

Boy, is this a timely topic. I have struggled with this problem for a couple years now at SFSU. My former boss did not take on this issue, but the new boss is very interested in the fact that our rooms, equipment such as stands and chairs, and of course pianos get used by outside groups. He just told me the other day that he checked with the Dean of our college, and nope, we get none of the rental fees, as I had suspected. We are struggling with severe budget shortages, so it seems only fair that there be some system of reimbursement so that we don't get stuck with all of the maintenance costs. Last year, one of the outside groups, a local chamber music society, nailed one of our grands with a coffee spill into the keys. (Magically, no one saw how it happened...) Although they immediately confessed (pretty much had to, because they couldn't continue using that piano and needed a new room) and even made noises like they would reimburse the music department for my time, ultimately the administration wussed out and decided not to charge them anything. Their reasoning was that since the group was a member of OLLI (Osher Lifelong Learning Institute) and OLLI is affiliated with SFSU, no penalty need apply. I was not pleased. No accountability, and I ended up having to rebush the keys on the department's nickel.

The problem is that the University Property Office is the entity that sets the rental fees, and according to the Special Events Coordinator it seems to be quite whimsical, depending on whether the group has any affiliation with SFSU, however tangential. He can never predict what the UPO plans to charge. I'm sure they are undervaluing the use of our pianos, and they don't realize what an attraction it is to have lots of good quality pianos in one place. If the people in charge don't understand what an asset having well-maintained pianos can be for a school, they also won't understand what's involved in high quality maintenance.

If any of you have ever received positive feedback from outside groups regarding the condition of the pianos at your school, this is further proof that you have an asset that needs to be correctly valued. I have found that groups renting out the music facilities at SFSU really want to be there because of the pianos. Why not press the advantage? Not to the point of gouging, but to remind everyone that pianos are not maintenance free.

It may take a while, but I'll be following up with this issue to find out how our school will be handling it. I would love to hear some ideas from the list on how to assess piano use fees.

Margie Williams
pnotuner@pacbell.net

"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing." (Unknown)

Original Message------

Hello Margie et al,

To Margie especially since you are an employee of the same university system-- our department maintains a detailed list of all possible equipment we might rent out to visiting performers/facility and equipment users, and charges (determined by us at the department level) according to value and time/effort involved in getting the equipment ready for use--including moving, servicing and tuning, etc. 
These are billed directly by us if it is the on-campus performing arts organization that brings visiting artists such as concert pianists, and through the property office (now called "risk management") if it is an outside organization.  Regardless of who does the billing, all monies come to the department to be used in instrument upkeep.  We've had this system for quite a while, and it works quite smoothly for the most part. 

Speaking of accidents, the craziest thing that ever happened to us was caused by a summer chamber workshop in 2013 that, after being told several times not to, placed one of our NY Ds across the divide between the elevating apron and the fixed part of the stage on one of the performance venues.  Someone sent the apron heading down without looking to see how things were in front of the curtain, and, well, the enclosed pic is the result :-)

Best,

Greg Granoff

Humboldt State U.

I would love to have been able to see a video of the flip. I can't imagine how a D can roll over unless it was being moved by dolly on its side. 

-Garret

------------------------------
Garret Traylor
Trinity NC
336-887-4266

Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2016 14:21
From: Gregory Granoff
Subject: rental fees

Hello Margie et al,

To Margie especially since you are an employee of the same university system-- our department maintains a detailed list of all possible equipment we might rent out to visiting performers/facility and equipment users, and charges (determined by us at the department level) according to value and time/effort involved in getting the equipment ready for use--including moving, servicing and tuning, etc. 
These are billed directly by us if it is the on-campus performing arts organization that brings visiting artists such as concert pianists, and through the property office (now called "risk management") if it is an outside organization.  Regardless of who does the billing, all monies come to the department to be used in instrument upkeep.  We've had this system for quite a while, and it works quite smoothly for the most part. 

Speaking of accidents, the craziest thing that ever happened to us was caused by a summer chamber workshop in 2013 that, after being told several times not to, placed one of our NY Ds across the divide between the elevating apron and the fixed part of the stage on one of the performance venues.  Someone sent the apron heading down without looking to see how things were in front of the curtain, and, well, the enclosed pic is the result :-)

Best,

Greg Granoff

Humboldt State U.

Original Message------

I would love to have been able to see a video of the flip. I can't imagine how a D can roll over unless it was being moved by dolly on its side. 

-Garret

------------------------------
Garret Traylor
Trinity NC
336-887-4266
------------------------------

Greg and Everybody,

Thanks for your responses that show that the music department is at least reimbursed something, even if it's mostly just token.

Greg, that's a pretty dramatic photo! Yikes. Makes my key bushing problem look like small potatoes.

Since we're a state entity, of course we have Risk Management and contracts, and an explicit instruction to attendees that no food and drink were to be removed from the break room, and of course no liquids were allowed in proximity to the pianos. When I talked to the Special Events Coordinator, he verified that there was insurance and agreement from the outside group to be held responsible for damages. This was a willful disregard of the rules, in my opinion. What a bunch of spineless enablers.

When I told my current boss what had happened, I got as far as "and they spilled coffee on the keys" when he interrupted me to exclaim, "They need to pay for that!" Unfortunately, his meeting/emails with the Dean on this topic didn't go real well, so he's going to wait and approach it later. But at least he's on board and understands the issues. The Dean may be a tougher sell.

The policies mentioned on this list will help me pursue this when the time is right.

Margie Williams
pnotuner@pacbell.net

"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing." (Unknown)


Original Message------

Hello Margie et al,

To Margie especially since you are an employee of the same university system-- our department maintains a detailed list of all possible equipment we might rent out to visiting performers/facility and equipment users, and charges (determined by us at the department level) according to value and time/effort involved in getting the equipment ready for use--including moving, servicing and tuning, etc. 
These are billed directly by us if it is the on-campus performing arts organization that brings visiting artists such as concert pianists, and through the property office (now called "risk management") if it is an outside organization.  Regardless of who does the billing, all monies come to the department to be used in instrument upkeep.  We've had this system for quite a while, and it works quite smoothly for the most part. 

Speaking of accidents, the craziest thing that ever happened to us was caused by a summer chamber workshop in 2013 that, after being told several times not to, placed one of our NY Ds across the divide between the elevating apron and the fixed part of the stage on one of the performance venues.  Someone sent the apron heading down without looking to see how things were in front of the curtain, and, well, the enclosed pic is the result :-)

Best,

Greg Granoff

Humboldt State U.