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Paper Punching Order

  • 1.  Paper Punching Order

    Posted 04-24-2017 12:06
    Does it really matter?
    This has been coming up more often over the years. Is there any documented proof that using e.g. four .010 punchings is more squishy than a single .040 card? 
    And does it matter if the thicker card is at the bottom and they progressively get thinner towards the top?
    And last but not least, any hard rule you can't use the same size twice? Or is that forbidden?
    And if this kind of thing is demanded, should extra be charged for the extra time in accommodating thsee demands? Or is this just the new standard?

    ------------------------------
    ChrisChernobieff
    Chernobieff Piano and Harpsichord Mfg.
    Lenoir City TN
    865-986-7720
    chrisppff@gmail.com
    www.facebook.com/ChernobieffPianoandHarpsichordMFG
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2017 13:24
    I've heard rumors of that, but never experienced it. I certainly don't adhere to this rule. The only thing I can tell you is that pianos that I worked on 20 years ago still have level keys.

    The only fast rule I follow is to have the paper/cardboard punchings under the felt punching.


    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2017 14:14
    Chris,

    I have not conducted an A/B (control) experiment, but here is shat I CAN share with you from personal experience.

    As you apparently have read, we do "consolidate and hierarchicalize" the paper punchings for both balance rail and front rail key pins. Pianos is heavy use in practice rooms have had their key level and dip be astonishingly stable over several years with these techniques, requiring only minor touch-up after thousands of hours of playing. The usual "YMMV" caveat applies here, but I know that I am not alone in the belief that consolidation helps (that is, beyond the "feeling" that one is doing "more"…). Paulo Fazioli visited some of his pianos at another L. A. area school recently and pointed out the lack of consolidation of key pin punchings, according to the tech at whom the criticism was directed (and was thoughtful enough to let me know that I was in good company!).

    The hierarchicalization is not, in my mind, to improve stability, but for ease of servicing.

    My 2 cents,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Posted 04-24-2017 14:48
    Don't use more than two of the same thickness of paper punchings. Conduct your own experiment on the compressibility of a stack of thin paper punchings as opposed to a thick card punching.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Posted 04-25-2017 10:18

    As old as the piano industry is, an experiment is suggested?  Why 2? Three is bad?






  • 6.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-25-2017 22:58
    Use conical punchings that hold everything down tight. That will help no matter what.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2017 00:05
    I find that one of the most important factors in stable keys is keeping the orientation of the felt punchings consistent. We typically mark them so we can keep them from rotating during removal and installation. 

    The other biggie is compression/settling. I have a small block from tapping down the keys at the balance rail. It has a hole for the balance rail pin. After a leveling pass I like to give each key a firm tap. It only takes a minute and really solidifies things.

    ------------------------------
    Ryan Sowers
    Olympia WA
    360-705-4160
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2017 06:41
    Yes, we also maintain the orientation of the cloth key pin punchings by marking them. And we use "The Squishinator" for compression.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Posted 04-26-2017 09:15
    Three is not objectionable. But rather than three 5's why not a 10 and a 5? I've had to replace a stack of ten 2's over the whole grand. The more punchings, the more air between them, as minute as it might be.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Posted 04-26-2017 21:51

    Thank you Jon, I've heard the air between the punching story before.  I have doubts about it. Any studies or past research that can back that up?






  • 11.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2017 22:24
    Chris -
    With respect, what exactly are you after?  

    The logic of the process has been articulated.  If it were to turn out that there was no physical difference in function, it would still seem to help in follow-up.  One benefit to having such graduated hierarchy (or at least, as I do it) is to have some immediate control of how much you would be removing, should that be necessary. For example, if, in reducing the key height, you had to remove a grey card of unspecified thickness, you'd have to measure, then build a replacement stack that incorporated that reduction, or rather, overshot the reduction enough so that you could control (ultimately by .001" or .0015") the approach to target key level.   If I had at least some of the thin punchings at the top of the stack, the process would be easier.  

    As I've re-learned in the past few days of regulating (including key level and dip), the challenge to consistent key leveling is less a function of the punchings, and more that of unaddressed friction that compromises the repeatablitiy of the micro-movement that we're trying to read in the installation of the thinnest paper.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2017 09:32
    Sometimes we seem to have the ability to over-talk these things, which is not to say that they might not have merit, but we can go on a bit, in the absence of the requisite research, however, I'd point out that it was never made entirely clear whether Chris was originally speaking of the balance rail, or the front rail, or both.  Eventually, Peter Grey made reference to 'conical' punchings, which implied the front rail, and Ryan Sowers spoke of compressing the balance rail punchings, as a means of stabilizing level.  

    In fact, the process of "consolidate and hierarchicalize"-ing is either something that Alan does on any piano he (they) work on, or more reasonably, on something that is getting more of a 'from scratch' regulation.  I would guess that any advantage to be gained by such process would have to be weighed against the initial destabilizing effect, of disrupting the stack (of punchings) and the cloth punching.

    One might question the actual effect of Ryan's "firm tap" or Alan's Squishinator:  I do a version myself, but what gets squished, or squshed, depending upon what region you're from?  We would be looking at either the paper stack, the punching, or, in the case of the balance rail, a slight compression of the wood.  

    I'll try some experiments later, for fun, but my pre-disposition is to assume that
    a) there is a difference between greater or fewer layers
    b) the ordering, in the production stage, is logical and an efficiency.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2017 19:02
    David,

    Some responses to your post.

    You wrote:
    "In fact, the process of "consolidate and hierarchicalize"-ing is either something that Alan does on any piano he (they) work on, or more reasonably, on something that is getting more of a 'from scratch' regulation." 

    My associates and I consolidate and hierarchicalize the paper and cardboard punchings of nearly every piano we work on, for the school, and for outside clients. Of course, we are often following our own work, so each time we do it, we are doing ourselves a favor.

    You continued:
    "I would guess that any advantage to be gained by such process would have to be weighed against the initial destabilizing effect, of disrupting the stack (of punchings) and the cloth punching."

    If by "disturbing" the cloth punching, you mean rotating and/or inverting it, that doesn't happen, because we first mark the cloth punchings for "o'clock" orientation and "up-side-ed-ness." Not sure just what you mean by, "...disrupting the stack (of punchings)…", presumably the paper and cardboard punchings?

    FWIW, when we consolidate, here's how we do it. 

    1) Using a full-length key leveling stick (highest and lowest sharps and naturals propped up to support the weight of the stick, if necessary), we mark all of the keys to indicate how much needs to be added or subtracted.

    2) Remove the top stack (hammer action, top action, or whatever you call it in your neck of the woods) using cordless screwdrivers outfitted with 6" philips-head bits. (I routinely swap out original slotted action bracket screws with #10, 1" pan-head sheet metal screws, for greater ease of use with power tools.)

    3) Remove the balance rail punchings; remove the cloth one from the rest of the pile; measure the pile with a spring-loaded thickness gauge (in which a spring applies the same pressure for every measurement, unlike when pressure is applied by hand, making it ideal for sizing up compressible materials such as leather, felt, cloth and paper).

    4) do the math (size of original pile in thousandths, plus or minus the indicated amount); create a pile that achieves the size targeted with the fewest possible punchings, arranged in hierarchical order), and

    5) reinstall punchings and key on pin, and rock the key with the strength of a firm handshake to settle things down.

    Same basic process for handling front-rail pin punchings, just a different method for determining how much needs to be added or subtracted (we use the Erwin Key Dip Gauge, which we affectionately refer to as the "Gnome gavel").

    Best,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2017 23:30
    AE -
    As usual, molto Ederfying.  
    Have you  timed this particular set of procedures?  While I'm sympathetic, I think about the added time when you're trying to refine an existing level (done, of course,  by someone else), where the addition of .003" (or less) will provide the desired result, but where the process of removing a stack, possibly containing dried, fragile paper, might lead to the need to repair and remeasure.  (That's what I was referring to as potentially 'dispruptive'.)
    On the other hand, when doing a level from 'scratch', as part of a total regulation, you wouldn't want to try to attain too much refinement (as in the thinner paper) at the earlier stages, as you will most likely be making subsequent additions, but at least you'd be playing with the top layers.

    One more thing:  we didn't discuss the type of cloth punchings we elect to use (at either balance or front).  Stabilizing that (new) cloth at the balance rail is much more a variable than the order of paper punchings. 

    Just started using the Erwin key dip tool.  I like it, but have a suggestion for an 'enhancement' for him.  It could help to be more 'custom-izable'.

    Regarding replacing the standard action frame screws with Phillips, I think it's a good idea (and especially yes to cordless - currently using  Hitachi) but I've been using something a little different (and, of course, sexier) which I'll write up separately.

    Lastly, this topic, in its inherent concern with precision, relates back to the previous discussion on Steinway style key leveling, and Patrick Draine's mention of some inconsistency in one member's WNG key level stick.  When we're striving for a resolution of .001", what currently available tool adequately supports that effort? 


    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Posted 04-27-2017 01:35
      |   view attached
    For What it is Worth: The Grotrian regulation guide stipulates: no more than four paper/cardstock punchings, and no more than two of any given thickness.

    There are good reasons for this.

    Paper is a very hygroscopic material. Paper punchings subjected to a number of cycles of higher and lower humidity will no longer lay perfectly flat - they turn into potato chips.  A stack of thin punchings can increase dramatically in height. The ramifications of this on dip and aftertouch and touch in general are pretty clear.

    I have seen stacks of 10 to 12 and more thin regulating punchings on a brand new Steinway D.  Somewhere I have a photo of a tall stack of green FR paper punchings. The airspace between them is considerable. This is not good. (Insert understatement icon here)

    It is no wonder that high quality pianos such as Hamburg Steinways and  Steingraebers use fiber punchings instead of paper. Fiber (sometimes also known as fish paper) punchings  do not absorb and release moisture. The regulation is much more stable as a result.

    See photo of fiber punchings:

    ------------------------------
    Jurgen Goering
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-27-2017 07:20
    David,

    Eder-fying… copy that.

    How long does it take to retroactively consolidate and hierarchicalize? It takes me, personally, so little time that I am usually doing something else while it is happening ;-). At the school, my budget is paltry, but my assistants are mighty. No, I have not timed it per se. The "Good Stuff" usually costs more, and is, IMHO, worth it. (When I die, I do not want my last thought to be that I wished I had taken it to the max…)

    If paper punchings are,"...dried or fragile," or torn or bent, the C & H process is the ideal time to swap them out for new, healthier punchings with their whole life ahead of them. (Have not calculated that cost, but again…)

    I use conical Crescendo front rail punchings (available from PianoForte Supply) most of the time (but not always), and prefer balance rail cloth punchings no thicker than key bushing cloth. At the school, new cloth punchings are stabilized by this ingenious arrangement we have: The students pay $45k per year to stabilize them for us!

    I continue to marvel at the fact that more people do not avail themselves of the Erwin key dip tool. In my view, it is superior to using a key dip block, even for experienced and skilled regulators. And there can be no question as to it's superiority for use by novices (as there is no learning curve for applying equal pressure to each key, as there is when using a key dip block). Also, it allows virtually the same technique to be used for sharps as for naturals, which is also real easy on the learning curve. I will be interested to learn of your own modification(s0 to the Erwin tool. We have some of our own, and plans for more.

    My weapon-of-choice for a cordless screwdriver is the old Milwaukee in-line (but articulate-able) model. There are other good ones out there as well, some with no doubt better battery life. I/we like the ergonomics of this particular tool.YMMV.

    To your last point, the WNG stick is close enough. On one hand, it is said that you can know a person by their fiends, and a craftsman (craftsperson?) by their tools. But it is also true that a good tech can do an excellent job even with less-than-ideal tools. It just take more effort and is not as much fun. (This is part of the reason so many of us are "tool worshipers.")

    I make the final judgement on a key leveling job from 10 to 20 feet away, viewed along the length of the keyboard, in the right light. I am looking for what what I call "still water", an image that seems to communicate effectively to my many minions. This inspection readily reveals discrepancies of key height (in naturals, of course) and/or squaring. "Still water" is achievable regardless of whether we are going for a crowned (a la Steinway) or straight (a la Sturm, et. al.) result.

    TTFN,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-27-2017 08:13
    AE -
    I originally used AEG, then Milwalkee (same actual unit, first one black, second one red) for quite some time. The Hitachi 
    HITACHI Power Tools: Products > Cordless > 3.6 Volt > DB3DL2 3.6V HXP Lithium Ion Screwdriver (1.5Ah) is my current 'go-to', as it's more powerful and, especially, the faster of the two speeds is much faster than the Milwalkee.

    The Crescendo punchings are certainly easier to regulate with, though, while admittedly not a pianist, I'm not infatuated with what seems like a harder 'bottom' feel.  What I think I did find was that with them, as with other front rail cloth with a tight fit on the pin, there was a little 'lift' of the fibers at the pin which made the positioning of the Erwin tool somewhat ambiguous.  It actually raised the tool a little.  I filed a slight bevel on each edge of the semi-circular cut-out and, voila!  I had also used some tape to increase the tool to closer to a .041" (or .042", I don't remember) dip, as the larger of the two he offers (10mm) is only .395", which is on the shallow end for current Steinway (I think).  Yesterday, I was going to suggest that he make up a graduated set, or a threaded rod with interchangeable heads (with a nice set screw).  A winning arrangement, all around: he gets to charge more, I get to spend more and carry yet more weight around.  This morning I realized I can use the same 'lost-punching' method to modify the target dip as we use to quantify aftertouch.  So disappointed.

    Meanwhile, I'll take your try to take your infectious enthusiasm for C&H to heart next opportunity.

    OK, TF's, HTGTW






    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-27-2017 08:29
    David,

    The issue you raise with the lifted felt fibers at the key pin with Crescendo punchings is not a problem for us, because we do not use the Erwin dip tool as Dale & Family manufacture it. Instead, we have fashioned our own, using a solid piece of brass withOUT the cutout. We were using tape to get incrementally larger sizes, but I bemoaned the loss of the tell-tale "click" of the bottom of the keystick against the solid brass (which tape deadens considerably) when the dip is excessive. So, we have done just what you posited, and made graduated barrels that screw on (a piece of teflon plumber's tape keeps them from unscrewing while in use). 

    The next phase of this modification will feature a felt-lined, exotic hardwood box to hold the handle and various barrels. Also, we are experimenting with different ways to attach the handle to a pair of "mega" tweezers (the ones we use to R&R the punchings, pointing away from the barrel-end of the handle), eliminating the need to put down one tool and pick up another. Once we get it tricked out, this Gnome Gavel/Erwin Dip Gauge outfit should cost a king's ransom. Yay! (Nothing like spending a fortune on tools to fortify one's commitment to doing the high-end work and charging up the wazoo for it, eh?)

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-27-2017 10:59
    Alan,
    My phone is being weird, do I'll try brevity.
    Not clear how you designed/use tool without cutout, which seems to insure consistent placement.  
    Did you mill the graduated brass yourself?
    Seems like you could Jane solved the 'tape' effect by putting it on the bottom only, but then you would hand a harder time justifying the extravagant box (which I'd want anyway). 
    A set screw along the lines of Yamaha voicing tool (and, by this time, probably countless other devices) world be more elegant than Teflon tape.

    As for consolidation, I was OK with TTFN, I can't remember what I meant by "TF's", and, while I'm down with C&H, I don't know what R&R is, unless it refers to what I'm doing now as I wait for alternate-side parking to end.
    Yes indeed, TTFN & HTGTW.


    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Posted 04-27-2017 11:51


    I wasn't after anything in particular. Just a lighthearted inquiry into the reasoning that goes into paper punching choices.  As a result of the fine comments, I have a different opinion now than I did when the post began.
    My main point of interest was whether air gets in between the punchings or not. I'm not sold on that one yet.
    But I like the idea of fiber punchings Jurgen mentioned. I've never experienced warped punchings before. But since moving to a high humidity area, like Tennessee, anything that helps, I'm for it.
    Appreciate y'all.






  • 21.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Posted 04-27-2017 15:06
      |   view attached
    I found a photo of a Steinway D fresh for the NY factory. Note the tall stack of thin paper punchings. There are at least a dozen punchings. I lifted one stack so you can see how many there are. The other stacks are compressible, it is quite plain to see. And this piano is new - just wait a few years.

    Who is working on their $100,000+ flagship pianos?
    You would not find this in any German piano, even a 42" console. It is simply shoddy workmanship or regulation by monkeys.
     - end of rant -

    ------------------------------
    Jurgen Goering
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-27-2017 11:57
    DS,

    We simply push the barrel up against the key-pin, the perpendicularity (ho boy!) of the tool's handle to the front rail ensuring consistent orientation. Obviously, one needs a larger barrel when using this approach compared to a gauge with the Erwin cut-out for the key-pin, in order to yield the same amount of dip (since keys at rest are inclined upward).

    I don't have a small machine lathe for turning down the solid brass rods for the barrels, but a couple of associates do.

    Truth be told (heck, why not? It's not Fake News Friday yet), we don't usually use the tape, and the handle stays in the barrel just fine but the friction of the fit.

    I can't remember what you meant by "TF's" either (of course, I never knew in the first place and , presumably, you did). I use "R&R" to mean "Remove and Replace", which usually involves more than just that. Didn't come up with it myself, and don't remember where I got it. "TTFN" may come from Winnie the Pooh, but I am not sufficiently motivated to look into that detail just now.

    ae

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Posted 04-28-2017 03:47
    Alan & David - 
    TTFN = TaTa For Now. First used by Tommy Handley during the war on his BBC Wireless Comedy programme: It's That Man Again - or: ITMA. Dare say one can hear recordings on-line. Sorry this has absolutely Nothing to do with Punchings!           Michael   UK





  • 24.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-28-2017 06:42
    Alan,
    Here is the problem with the Erwin key dip tool. It gives a result not in alignment with the traditional method of setting key dip. In other words, .390 with a key dip block is not equivalent to .390 with the Erwin tool. Normally when you use a key dip block you are compressing the front punching slightly with the finger pressure needed to depress the key.  I have tried to measure that, and even with light finger pressure it's equivalent to about 200 grams. Similarly, the WNG key dip tool has a 300 g weight attached to it. I once dipped a set of keys perfectly at .390 using a key dip block. I used a 200 gram weight for consistency. Then I checked my work with the Erwin  tool. It indicated that my key dip was too shallow. It took me a few minutes of head scratching to figure out why. With the Erwin tool there is no compression of the front punching. It is a beautiful tool, and easy to use, but it will yield a much different result  than the way most people in our industry are setting key dip.
    You have piqued my curiosity though, what modifications have you made to the tool?
    David Weiss

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 25.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-28-2017 07:12
    David W.,

    Thanks for you inquiry.

    You asked about modification to the Erwin tool. The only ones we have made (so far) are:

    1) no cut-out to go around the key pin (which works around the issue David S. noted about raised felt at the key pin due to the tight fit of Crescendo punchings, and

    2) making "barrels" of different sizes, which screw onto the handle.

    You are quite right, of course, about a .390" (10 mm) barrel on an Erwin gauge not yielding the same result as a .390" key dip block. That has not been a problem, as we just use which ever barrel diameter yields the amount of dip we are targeting. Historically, we have used barrels ranging from .375" to .405", graduated in increments of .1 mm (.004").

    I routinely submit to the reality check of comparing which size barrel to use against a key dip block (of which I also have many, similarly graded as to size). 

    With the Erwin gauge, pressure, as you rightly pointed out, does not enter into it, As mentioned in another post, this makes the Erwin gauge ideal for novices. Another thing that makes the Erwin gauge more accurate than a dip block is this: It measures the space between the bottom of the keystick and its respective front rail punching(s). (In other words, the amount that a given key is actually dipping, less any compression of the front punching(s)). Therefore, discrepancies, however minor, in the precise height of adjacent keys is not referenced (as they are using a traditional dip block), slightly confounding our best efforts at being consistent.

    Clear as mud?

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Posted 04-28-2017 17:02
    David's post bring in another variable - the compression of the front rail punching.

    Key dip and after touch are variable on the same key, depending on how much force is used in playing the key. A firmer blow (or a heavier weight) will compress the punching more.  It gets worse. The  "compressibility" of the punching will vary, depending on the thickness of the punching. A medium thickness punching will compress to a different degree than a thin or or thick one made form the exact same material.
    That is why the Crescendo punchings come in only one thickness. That way, the compressibility is always constant.  Key dip and after touch are adjusted using the paper regulating punchings.

    Pianists rely on the after touch for a lot of their tactile feedback. It is a great advantage if this sensation is more consistent across a breadth of dynamic levels of playing.
    The squshiness factor, be it from the stack of paper/cardboard punchings as well as the felt compression should ideally be kept to a minimum.

    The thick, squishy FR punchings on so many Yamaha U1 and U3 pianos is the reason there are so many problems related to bobbling hammers in these models. Beginner pianists do not play all the way to the bottom of the (poorly defined) key dip. They feel the resistance when the key barely touches the punching  and do not follow through. You can't really blame them too much. A player should not have to compress the FR punching a mm or two to get to let-off.

    Proper regulation and a firmer FR punchings will always solve those problems.

    ------------------------------
    Jurgen Goering
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Posted 04-27-2017 01:55
    Doesn't 'conical' punchings refer to the front rail baizes, not the card/paper punchings? I put these white conical Wurzen felts on my S&S 'A' from advice received that this made a great difference to the 'feel' of the keys to a professional pianist. The cost is not a significant factor - but the 'feel' is!        Michael    UK





  • 28.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Posted 04-26-2017 09:39
    Chris,

    Yes, it matters.
    I saw a patent youtube video, not from USA, where libel laws are somewhat insignificant, but Europe, where such laws are far more a concern, of a German pianist splitting hairs about key dip on a digital without the potential to regulate with punchings, demonstrating in the video how some sharps when depressed fully were higher or lower than adjacent ones, in objection to the aftermarket product, albeit on a digital, which goes beyond questions about aftertouch, and to specifications on key dip and how to adhere to these. This digital was designed with aftertouch.

    Included was criticism of key leveling as well. 

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2017 10:07
    It certainly is LOGICAL to arrange things from large to small in as few increments as possible. This would apply at both the BR and FR.  I suppose if you took the experiment to an extreme (a stack of .005" punching vs. two .040" or .050" punchings) I am reasonably sure that you're going to experience a difference. Therefore it could be extrapolated that the ideal arrangement would in fact be as few punchings as possible, with thick on the bottom and thin on top.

    This is something we could strive for.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 30.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Member
    Posted 04-26-2017 10:46
    I will throw a new curve ball into the game. How do the paper, wool and cardboard punchings react to high humidity ? has anyone experimented with dimensional changes or reactions to humidity changes ?

       I have had customers complain about the sound of their pianos after a few days of heavy rains and higher humidity. I have also seen
    mold and mildew collect on punchings given the absence of air conditioning for extended periods of time. During the floods here two years ago I measured moisture levels in a home that had no ac for over two weeks and which had been flooded out. the piano was wet only on the bottom board yet the hammer felt pegged the analog meter as high as the wet wood.

     I am not aware of any hard rules about the order or number of punchings other than cardboard on the bottom, thicker, thinner and the felt on the top. I have seen all types of things in the field including a S&S with the felt on the bottom, cardboard nxt and then paper . the keys where all over the place height wise.

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 31.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2017 11:43
    I'd let the curveball go by. Why expand such speculation, unless you're preparing to introduce and market new fangled
    punchings made of plastic our carbon fiber that exhibits no dimensional changes.  That you've had occasion to encounter some anomalous permutations doesn't creating a special case.

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 32.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Posted 04-26-2017 16:43
    Materials susceptible to moisture absorption will change dimensionally with a change in RH. It's called job security. <g>

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 33.  RE: Paper Punching Order

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-27-2017 16:15
    TTFN - Ta Ta For Now

    Winnie the Pooh

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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