Voicing

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Voicing Kit

  • 1.  Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2017 12:57
    Hello all,

    I'm trying to put together my first voicing kit. Was just curious what you all would consider to be the "essential" tools, which are beneficial to have, and which are just "cool extras." 

    Thanks

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Lompoc CA
    805-315-8050
    benpianopro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-24-2017 14:29
    Hello Benjamin,

    You could purchase a complete voicing kit from a company like Fugebauer which has an assortment of voicing needles, paddles etc. Or if you want to just make one, I would recommend two voicing tools; one that has three needles with #6 glover needles for rough voicing and another tool with two needles, maybe #7 needles, for fine voicing particular areas of the hammer; a good investment is the micro finishing paper that Pianoforte sells which is a set of three different grits; a sand file preferably that has an angled end for the shoulders also with different grits and finally a good voicing block from one of the supply houses.
    You should also consider carrying a good string lifter for leveling strings.




  • 3.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2017 14:44
    Andrew's post is excellent and covers the gamot for getting started pretty well. 
    Also want to highly recommend something like the Coleman "sugar-coating" voicer. 
    Will try to attach images.

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2017 14:48
    Thanks Andrew. I just saw the micro finishing paper this morning, but thought little of it. I'll be sure to reconsider. As far as making my own tools, I'm not quite sure how to attach the needles to my wooden handles, so I'll probably end up purchasing a kit from a supplier. 

    Ive also heard that it's a good idea to have multiple tools with the same needles, just projecting different lengths. I was looking at pianoforte's adjustable voicing tool, so as to knock out two birds with one stone. Does anyone have experience with this tool -- is it a good investment?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Lompoc CA
    805-315-8050
    benpianopro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-24-2017 15:35
    Yes, Benjamin, I do have the adjustable voicing tool from Pianoforte Supply and it is quite good. It also includes some extra needles and a small driver to remove and replace the needles. Comes in a nice pouch.




  • 6.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-24-2017 15:45
    I'd stay away from glover needles, their shape tend to cut the fibers rather than push them aside. They are destructive.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2017 16:27
    Thanks for the warning Jon. I've heard many techs dislike Grover needles, and I've never used them myself. Out of curiosity, is there ever a good time to use them?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Lompoc CA
    805-315-8050
    benpianopro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2017 16:43
    Yes good "point" Jon. Sage advice. 

    Benjamin, I have a basic voicing tool that came with some smaller glovers needles (trangular ends) and found it to be very handy for really old clunker pianos (like old Baldwins,etc). 
    I would not recommend using these in general--so perhaps I mis-spoke. Perhaps keep in the back of your mind for deeper shoulder needling ONLY on hammers that are net responding to other methods at all. Hammers CAN be destoyed by too much of almost any method. (My 2 cents)

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-24-2017 19:02
    The adjustable voicing tool from Piano Forte Supply is one of the best tools I've ever purchased. Definitely in my top 10 of all time...

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 10.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2017 19:19
    Thanks for the input everyone. I am always open to advice, and will continue putting together my kit, if anyone else has any ideas, I look forward to hearing them.  

    I was just looking at Schaff a few minutes ago, and found what looks to be the same adjustable voicing tool as the one from PianoForte, only it's $105, a third of the price of the PianoForte one. Does anyone know if it's high quality as well, or should I go with the one from PF?

    I'm more interested in quality than price, but when it's that big a price difference... I was just wondering if the one from PF is $200 more for the quality or for the name. 

    Thanks,

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Lompoc CA
    805-315-8050
    benpianopro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2017 19:33
    My mistake. The one from PF is $265, not $300. Still, same dilemma.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Lompoc CA
    805-315-8050
    benpianopro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2017 20:44
    I concur with Mr. Andersen about the adjustable voicing tool from PianoForte Supply being the bees' knees. For needling purposes, that tool, along with a chopstick needling tool (my favorite is made by Keith Bowman and sold through Renner USA) will get you started. And like Mr. Fortenberry, I also carry the Coleman sugar-coating tool (two rows of five needles each, protruding about 2.5 mm, staggered, a couple of millimeters apart).

    As others have pointed out, string leveling and hammer resurfacing, and hammer/string mating are are also crucial parts of the voicing process (and should be addressed before using needles, generally speaking).

    And when you stop to think about it, if voicing consists of doing things to improve a piano's tone, is there ANYthing we can do to a piano that is NOT, at the end of the day, voicing? Seen in that light, ALL of our tools are voicing tools.

    Alan

    P. S. I held a $100.00 version of the adjustable voicing tool in my hands once, back in the day when purveyors of tools showed up at convention exhibit halls in large numbers. It was NOT the same tool, and although I really liked the idea of saving all that money, all I could think of was how I would kick myself for not getting the best possible tool available every time I picked it up to use it. Life is much too short to knowingly step into a pile of warm, steaming regret such as that!

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2017 21:36
    For a chopstick tool, I strongly recommend the retractable one designed by Fazioli and sold by Pianoforte Supply. It is 2 mm wide, so it is far easier to get at the hammer from the angle you choose. The retractable function makes it far better for carrying in the tool case. On the same page at Pianoforte, the "small brass voicing tool" is an excellent ergonomic tool for many applications where nothing else will quite do the trick. It is especially nice for finish voicing of uprights, but also good for what Oorebeek calls "battery voicing," though a somewhat different and more effective method: start the needle in the lower shoulder and press it toward the core and the crown (more or less a 30 to 45 degree angle to the molding). This releases tension in the felt close to the core, thereby brightening the tone.

    Different people use different methods. My preferred "crown sugarcoater" is a five needle in one row tool, which I fill with #12 quilting needles protruding about 3 - 4 mm. I use it for precision una corda voicing (placed precisely where the string will be struck at full pedal), and to do maintenance voicing in the grooves - a subtle reduction of the harsh attack sound that develops as the hammer is played. 

    But before you wield the needle, there are lots of other things that need to be in place, like well-traveled shanks, well-square hammers, well-filed hammers (crowns perpendicular to the molding), leveled strings, and mated hammers. The skills to accomplish those factors are really more important than what tool you have to insert needles into felt.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2017 18:04
    Hello, Benjamin

    What I would carry is the brass chopstick voicing tool, with a needle about 1/3" out (carried with the tuning tools).

    A block to support hammers while gang filing.

    A slat with 220 garnet paper on it.

    A couple of strips two or 3 inches wide of sandpaper of different grits, backed by tape so they last.

    A small pair of vise grips which can be used on really stone-hard hammers of cheap grands, to squeeze some give into the shoulders.

    A thumb voicing tool (German, I forget where I got it) with a single needle in it, slightly longer than the chopstick tool. It can be used to needle upright hammers, or the shoulders of grand hammers with the action pulled onto one's lap.

    A dropper bottle with medium strength extra-blonde shellac for emergency voicing, especially of the high end, the day before a concerto. Put a small amount directly into the string grooves, do something else till it has dried, then give the notes some hard blows and some needling.

    Another small bottle with "vodka" (100 proof ethanol) for quickly bringing down a super-bright upright, or with great care and discretion for taking a glass-hard edge off of octave 7 in a grand. (start with one drop, only on the worst hammers. Do not use twice.)

    If I had to do without everything else, I'd keep the chopstick tool and the wooden slat with 220 on it.

    (Don't use glover's needles, or Downy fabric softener, or, as someone recently suggested, Ballistol oil on the hammers.)

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-24-2017 22:32
    Benjamin,

    Find reputable technicians and shadow them for important voicing gigs of theirs, not yours, and find out the tools they use when voicing, and how they use them. After over 3 decades in the business, I guarantee people will try to deceive you, even through social media. 

    Perhaps the Glover needles make more sense to use in combination with hardeners? In that hardeners have not even been mentioned? 

    There is a method to inserting a needle into the hammer that can make the biggest needle cause the least damage on certain hammers. 


    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2017 22:38
    Concerning glover's needles, they are triangular in cross section, with two of the angles quite sharp. They are designed for sewing leather, in that they can make their own hole (no need for an awl) in relatively soft, thin leather, as in gloves. In felt hammers, they cut the fibers rather than spreading them. Hence, they are FAR more destructive. It is like using little knives. Yes, they can be effective in making harsh hammers mellow. But after trying them maybe 20 years ago and following myself on those same hammers, I will never use one on a piano hammer again.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-24-2017 23:00
    This is a microscopic image of glover size 6 needles. The diameter is slightly larger than conventional needles. But I assure you, whatever was the case 20 years ago, they are round today. 

    This is what I am talking about. If you want to avoid esoteric pronouncements, find someone not only reputable, but who you find to be a person of integrity, and shadow them.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2017 23:11
    The shank of a glover's needle is round. The tip, however, is triangular in cross section. You can read a description here "The Glover needles are a heavy needle with sharp triangular points that easily pierce leather. They are a specifically designed for sewing hides and work very well for commercial hides and brain-tanned hides." And below are a couple photos that show the tip fairly well. They haven't changed in a couple centuries. Google "glover's needles" and find out more.
    Image result for glovers needle
    Image result for glovers needle
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "Since everything is in our heads, we had better not lose them." Coco Chanel






  • 19.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-24-2017 23:32
      |   view attached
    Ads gimmick. I got a set with no such tip. 

    I catch myself when voicing, rushing, despite what I've been taught elsewhere, however, ignoring Fred Sturm when inserting needles into a hammer, which he insists, must be done patiently, carefully, and directly. Fred Sturm is someone, personally, I trust, when giving advice about voicing. I am in no way discouraging you Benjamin from listening to Fred and seeking out his posts on voicing. They have helped me immensely. 

    This is just some confusion about Glover needles.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-25-2017 08:23
    Can't clearly see the image of the packaging you included, but here's a link to what the John James Glover's Needles looks like: (hope link / image work)
    Bulk Loose Needles : Glovers / Leather Needles
    Jjneedles remove preview
    Bulk Loose Needles : Glovers / Leather Needles
    Glovers / Leather Needles Bulk Loose Needles
    View this on Jjneedles >


    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-25-2017 11:03
    Mea culpa.

    Just found my mistake scanning the Schaff catalogue pg 43. I forgot you could order the John James needles I posted the file on from them opposed to the Glover. The similar packaging which I remembered for the Glovers depicted next to the Glovers, not the John James conventional 6 needle in the catalogue, threw me off. For the most part I have obtained needles elsewhere, augmenting my absent-mindedness.

    Never tried Glover needles myself. Might someday on a set of hammers that are going to be replaced for curiousity sake. One benefit, I would guess, is the unlikelihood they will break off in the hammer.

    It would be interesting to hear from those that have had positive experiences with the needles. 

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-25-2017 15:20
    <<One benefit, I would guess, is the unlikelihood they will break off in the hammer.>>

    I've broken one voicing needle in 39 years, and it didn't break inside a hammer. But then, I shuddered when I saw the whack-whack-whack Yamaha method demonstrated. I shuddered worse when I heard about someone who put a voicing needle straight through a thumb.

    I have an innate distrust of repeated very deep needling. I think it is too likely to interfere with the natural gradation of felt density, which allows for an even increase in brightness with hardness of blows. YMMV, of course, and I'm assuming that the hammers have been well made and not hot pressed.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-25-2017 14:09
    It seems that a lot of people regard the method of pressing needles into hammers as very slow and time-consuming. It is not, or doesn't need to be. In doing deep shoulder voicing (the first step for most hammers - unless they are going to be lacquered), I generally do 7 to 9 insertions per shoulder, three needles 10 mm long, inserted fully. This takes me about one minute per hammer, or 1 1/2 hours for the set. 

    Doing it this way means that there is consistency from hammer to hammer. It also means that the hammer has been opened up pretty deep into the core. This is not my invention. In fact, it is simply what Renner teaches - except they mostly do it before hanging, with the hammers in a clamp. I do the same thing with the hammers already hung, supported under their moldings. Here is a demo video. 

    A very important component of my method involves standing and using the body weight to lean the needles into the hammer. The hammers pictured in the video are upright. For a grand, I have a different method of supporting the hammers, involving a piece of angle iron held just above the tops of the back checks to support the hammer tails.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-25-2017 15:12
    It is important to recognize the right tools can lead to nothing but hammering at everything that looks like a nail, and be no more productive than the wrong ones.

    Directly accumulating information about voicing shadowing technicians in action from a half a dozen important people in the field of piano technology over a quarter century in multiple states can be confusing. I still am trying to understand a video demonstration of voicing from the Steinway Academy at the New York factory apparently from Hamburg. It depicted extremely aggressive, perpendicular to the hammer, rapid, striking of the shoulders, hundreds of times. A Kawai MPA demonstrated a much gentler system-though I communicated nothing about the video to him-I am more comfortable with. However, I am left asking how much this voicing technique has to do with the new Steinway hammers people are raving about.

    It would be nice to hear some thoughts on the advantages of angled needling. Certainly not the first discussion about it. Also would be interested in hearing about the advantages of more aggressive needling, and the glover needles. This forum is intimidating, but how did discussing other alternatives become professional suicide?




    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-25-2017 15:53
    Hi, Benjamin

    I think that one has a choice about how intimidating this forum has to be. The tone of voice in a post is provided by the reader. If I say something and someone seems to go right round the bend, I assume that they are imagining a tone of blame which I didn't intend, so I try again. It may or may not work, but even if someone stays very cross with me, the effect on my real life seems minimal. Compared to some forums, we seem to be the soul of courtesy.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-26-2017 07:42
    Susan,
    I approach voicing instruction, about tools and methods, with a heavy dose of critical thinking, and sometimes, it leads to being irrational. 

    Over the years I have heard so many different things about voicing. The older New York Steinway techs that I received instruction from, who routinely added hardener to hammers, were afraid of the needle, Glover or otherwise. I never saw anybody use a glover needle, or suggest that I should, in over 30 years.The Steinway techs that developed the hardening process in voicing seemed to suggest that needling after hardening the hammer with lacquer or anything else, glover needle or not, indicated that too much solution or too solid a solution had been added to the hammer, in the wrong location of the hammer. 

    The harden needle, then harden needle again, then harden and needle again and again, this method became popular enough to be advocated by the most popular technicians without censure, I think, in a later generation of New York Steinway C&A techs. I think this evolved later because an older generation of techs insisted you must use hardener on New York Steinway hammers regardless. This question does not involve Glover needles. And what is happening to that system for New York Steinway C&A techs of harden needle harden needle harden needle? The hammer ostensibly designed for this process is gradually being phased out of production, it could be argued, due to such abuse.

    I have come across some pianos that I suspect may have been subjected to the glover needle. Unlike other needled hammers, these never get bright again. I used to blame crown needling with regular round needles, and never considered the Glover. Just wondering what happened to such hammers by inquiring of those using Glover needles. 

    I have openly disagreed with some of the most important people in the industry. I still fix pianos for a living. 


    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2017 20:29
    Thanks for sharing this history, Benjamin.

    I usually have had to work on pianos where the initial voicing has already been set up by someone else.

    What I particularly don't like is subjecting hammers to repeated cycling -- too bright, too soft, too bright, too soft. Juice them up and then needle them down. Every cycle gives worse results than the one before. The longevity of the hammers shortens every time someone takes hammers too far in one direction and then overcompensates in bringing them back. 

    What I prefer is to take hammers which have a fairly good level of brightness/mellowness right out of the factory, and then get them into a sweet spot, and after that keep the intervention to the very smallest amount possible, so that they stay there. I think that the natural gradation of sound and the variety are tone are better, and certainly the focus of sound in lower dynamic levels is better if hammers can be maintained like this.

    I did find, using vodka on a "gospel" Yamaha beaten up weekly, that the dosed hammers did brighten up again -- twice. After that, they were dead as door nails and never came back. So, I suppose, you could call vodka "liquid glover's needles." Well, if overused.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2017 12:12
    Susan, 

    I'm not offended at all. I recognize that different people have different opinions, and that they have reasons for those opinions. I honestly think I'm in the best seat here; I get to sit back and learn in a few hours what the result of a combined 300+ years of experience has to say. That's cool, and it's something I don't take for granted.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Lompoc CA
    805-315-8050
    benpianopro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-26-2017 11:25
    Benjamin,

     The voicing from the Steinway Academy is on hard Hamburg
    (Renner) hammers. They are doing a procedure that
    André Oorebeek calls "battery" voicing, I think.

    You'll find out about this in his book.


    I have used this on Euro import hammers
    and Asian hammers.

    These are not NY hammers in the video.

     Correct me if I'm wrong, but
    I believe Hamburg Steinway
     still uses hammers
    made for them by Renner. 


    Vintage American pianos, and NY Steinway
    pianos require a different technique, as you know.

    I think it would be a mistake to try this on American
    (cold pressed) hammers. Correct me if I'm wrong
    on that.


    Richard





  • 30.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-26-2017 12:38
    Thanks Richard,

    When I looked for the book it was out of print. Sounds like a must read for voicing. 

    Yes, the video mentioned was from Hamburg. I have used the method on Yamaha hammers. But some people want Yamahas to do something other pianos are supposed to do, not voicing, which can be simulated with another hammer.

    It depends. The Yamaha as designed provides lots of clang, and the appended hammer, not so much bloom, and plenty of sizzle. This is what some people want from the piano who understand it. 5:42 begins conversation about the piano.

    Yamaha Pianos in conversation with Hiromi
    YouTube remove preview
    Yamaha Pianos in conversation with Hiromi
    Hailing from Hamamatsu, Japan, pianist, composer and Yamaha Artist Hiromi is one of the world's most popular and explosive performers. In this video, shot at Ronnie Scott's jazz club before a sold out show, she discusses the early days of her career, her time studying at Berklee, and the transition from classical pianist to jazz star.
    View this on YouTube >
    Shine I interpret as sizzle. The percussive effect is pleasing to some. Battery voicing creates bloom. But it is not a Petrof, a good example of a blooming piano and voicing technique.

    I don't and haven't seen enough Hamburg Steinways to know with those, but understand it is a Renner made hammer. 

    Some Euro hammers don't need something so aggressive in my experience. Not that it won't be an improvement. Kawai hammers are the same.

    All the 80's cold pressed Steinway non-pre-lacquered Hammer shoulders needed was lacquer. 

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2017 15:16
    For Voice of the Piano, contact Jurgen at pianoforte supply. He has it listed on his web site http://www.pianofortesupply.com/books/voice-of-the-piano/voicing-book-dvd-2/ and it is included in his 2016 price list. The book's website is probably out of date.
    Fred Sturm
    fssturm@unm.edu
    www.artoftuning.com
    http://fredsturm.net
    "Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." -Gustav Mahler






  • 32.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2017 15:19
    Oops, I looked again and see that that was the French version in the 2016 price list. Check with Jurgen anyway, he may have made something happen by now.
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "I am only interested in music that is better than it can be played." Schnabel






  • 33.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-26-2017 18:02
    Again,
    E.g., excessive shoulder needling?
     上原ひろみSPARK J-WAVE PREMIUM LIVE 2016/2/ 3 東京銀座ソニービル
    YouTube remove preview
    上原ひろみSPARK J-WAVE PREMIUM LIVE 2016/2/ 3 東京銀座ソニービル
    2016年2月3日、東京銀座ソニービルでの1回限りのプレミアムライブ。 J-WAVEでネットライブ配信。 抽選で選ばれた50人が招待され、アルバム収録曲の「ホワット・ウィル・ビー、ウィル・ビー」「ウェイク・アップ・アンド・ドリーム」の2曲を披露。 One-time premium live at Sony Building, Tokyo Ginza on February 3, 2016. Live live distribution with J-WAVE. 50 people chosen by lottery were invited and showed 2 songs "What Will Be, Will Be" and "Wake Up And Dream" of the album tracks.
    View this on YouTube >


    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-25-2017 09:31
    For a first voicing kit:
    A few strips of assorted abrasive paper, backed with adhesive tape.
    A string hook
    A pin vise and a few needles [please not glover's needles!]
    A five inch length of shoe molding for a voicing block
    A 6" length of thin brass tubing with needle crimped and glued in one end, the other end bent into a hammer lifting hook

    With these you can get plenty experience, and make good choices when/if you decide to buy expensive tools.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-25-2017 09:48
    Whew boy - I stand corrected and humbled (regarding the Gl----s needles). I'm thankful I got the picture before I damaged anything. 
    Also, I am glad I could help--because all this "flap" will help someone else out there. 
    (Why are these beasts even sold by supply houses? Nevermind..another discussion ENTIRELY!) 
    All about learning, Kevin

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-25-2017 10:09
    Why Kevin, it should be obvious.  We use Glover's needles to make little leather finger cots to prevent voicing needles from penetrating too far... into our fingers.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-25-2017 10:16
    Of course!! Thank you David!

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 38.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-25-2017 10:05
    As per recent discussion on PTG Pianotech re: string leveling, I would include, in voicing kit, some sort of leveling device - Mother Goose Bubble Gauge (with bubble), ruler, exotica, etc.-  to use in conjunction with string hook.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-25-2017 15:07
    Ed, you're implying a critically important principle:

    The most important voicing tools are aural and mental: your two ears and what is in between them. The better the pianos and the better the pianists one is voicing for, the more useful the tools will become.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 40.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-25-2017 19:47
    Susan,
    Yes, thank you!
    The ability to hear what the piano is doing, and to imagine what it can become....

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 41.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-25-2017 10:17
    I purchased the Flubelbauer voicing kit as my first kit and still use it all the time. It has a great variety of tools and the carrying case is very handy. They are high quality tools. I also really like the gold coated voicing needles they sell.

    ------------------------------
    Jordan Porter
    ------------------------------



  • 42.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2017 20:05
    Just curious, but is there any good tool for upright voicing? I have an adjustable angle voicing tool, pictured below. Is there a better tool?

    Also I've heard of an action holder that allows you to lean the action back back and forth in order to get the voicing tool in there. Has anyone else heard of this, and where is it available if at all?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Lompoc CA
    805-315-8050
    benpianopro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 43.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-26-2017 20:12
    Benjamin,
    Check Schaff or Pianotek Supply for those voicing tools with a comfortable handle.
    If it's gang voicing you have to perform, the video that Fred Sturm shared works really well with the action lying on a table with strong support behind the hammers. If you do it that way, you don't need adjustable needles.

    Sent from my iPad




  • 44.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-27-2017 03:52
    Upright voicing tool -- Yes, Benjamin, I think there is a much better tool than the one you pictured. You can get it from Jurgen at Piano Forte Supply. He calls it the small brass voicer. I use mine with a single needle.

    Small Voicing Tools for Piano Hammers
    Pianofortesupply remove preview
    Small Voicing Tools for Piano Hammers
    Small single needle voicing tools for fine voicing of grand pianos and upright pianos. A. #130200 This small brass voicing tool holds 1 to 4 needles. Ideal for fine voicing of any pianos, especially good for voicing in tight spots. B. #130210 Retractable Chopstick voicer for single needling of grand hammers through the strings, without pulling the action.
    View this on Pianofortesupply >


    I see he has something I haven't tried yet, called a ring voicer. I think I'll order one of those.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 45.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-28-2017 13:54

    Many years ago I attended classes on voicing at the annual convention of the then American Society of Piano Technicians. These were given by Bill Hupfer, the legendary Carnegie Hall technician, who had accompanied Rachmaninov on all of his fourteen American tours. The main recollections I have were these:

     

    For re-shaping he used a fairly coarse grit sandpaper only, about equivalent to 60 (the system of grading grit was different then).

    He used a voicing tool with three needles about 5/8" in length for voicing down. These he pounded into the shoulders, working methodically and rhythmically. But he did not use force, just the weight of the arm. The needles went in all the way and none broke. When retracting them he pulled them towards him, causing the needle to ping. He called this "Making the needles sing".  For doping he used a 4 to 1 mixture of lacquer thinners to clear lacquer. I feel his techniques were  tailored to the Steinway hammers  he worked with, which were quite soft.

     

    The problem is that this approach has become almost pervasive, and is used on hammers which are dense, so that force is used to enable depth of penetration. This results in a lot of broken needles. Andre Orebeek said he prefers Japanese needles, so stocked up with1000 of them. I think Yamaha is largely responsible tor his, by adopting and promoting it.

     

    Although I like Fred Sturm's methods, which are traditional in Europe, I find myself increasingly using lateral needling through the sides of the hammers, and have been criticized for doing so, or told it is only for low quality situations. It is easy to ruin hammers using any technique, but the side needling is virtually invisible, and does not change the shape of the hammer.  The new pliers from PianoForte Supply are excellent, but must be used from both sides because of the taper of the needle points,. They do cause cupping, so should not be used too close to the crown, and the hammers may need a further filing. Another tool I  have never seen mentioned is available from www.MicroMark.com. It is a ball end pin vise. It uses a collet like those in a Dremel Moto Tool, which has to be tightened down hard to prevent the needle from  slipping.  I use it with the needle extended 1" so that the taper clears the hammer for an even insertion. This tool only costs about $12 and is very comfortable to use. It can be pushed through hard hammers quite readily. One needle will last indefinitely. A good deal of voicing can be accomplished by travelling, spacing and shank heating, as has been noted, and fitting the hammers to the strings. In dealing with uneven voicing, my approach is to chalk mark the harder hammers, work on them, then WIPE THE CHALK MARKS OFF and repeat the process, gradually evening the results. If the chalk is hard to remove, Jurgen Goering at PianoForte Supply has a softer chalk available. I just wish it was round, to fit a chalk holder.

     

    Ted Sambell

     

     

    Sent from Mail for Windows 10

     






  • 46.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-28-2017 16:13
    A lightly dampened cloth will remove even older chalk marks.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 47.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-28-2017 17:43

    Thanks Jon, that makes such good sense. Further , I cannot overemphasize the significance of fitting hammers to the strings; doing this will frequently eliminate much unevenness. In a grand there is a simple aid which is well known, but in case there are people to whom it is unfamiliar, it is to lay a 2' wide piece of bushing cloth on the repetition levers above the jacks. This eliminates the let-off, so the hammer blocks the strings when the key is depressed. One can make a 'third hand weight' to hold the key down while plucking to check for open strings. I made mine from a piece of brass 2' x 1" x 7/8"  and attached a narrow strip of hard leather along each edge of the bottom side with Gorilla glue so that it would sit on a sharp without toppling. It's handy when hooking the hammer to the string with one hand while plucking with the other. I don't get along well with the trick of pressing the jack tender into the let-off button, but many people seem to.

     

    Ted Sambell

     

    Sent from Mail for Windows 10

     






  • 48.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-28-2017 19:47
    Ted,

    I actually spoke with Jim Coleman Sr., and he suggested I make a shank lifter. My is pictured below. The concept is the same as what you described. As the music wire hook is let down between the strings, you can use it to lift the shank and cause the hammer to block the strings. Then you can pluck the strings with one hand to see if they're all level. It is super simple to make, and can save you a lot of time down the road.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Lompoc CA
    805-315-8050
    benpianopro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 49.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-28-2017 20:15
    When replacing bass strings, save the lowest thick ones. Cut the loop off at the end off the twists. Cut through the wrap and core about 6" from the start of the wrapping. Dress the winding edge on a grinder and seal with thick CA, this is the handle. Now you have a number of probes for use as a depth gage or glue application. I use it most often to pierce the nozzle on the CA glue bottle.

    To lift a hammer to mate to the string, take one of the probes and place a 90 degree bend at 10 mm from the end. This makes for quick insertion thru the strings to lift the shank. It also makes a good glue applicator for a broken upright jack support flange joint.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 50.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-29-2017 08:44
    This is a great discussion. I've been holding back… but now I'll throw my thoughts and experience into the circle:

    A decade or so ago I had a special situation and I needed to "kill" the tone on a little upright in a very small room. These were 20 year old Abel hammers pressed with some heat. I took the action out and laid it on the floor. I placed a 2 x 4 under the tails and attacked the striking area of the top felt with a little spike shaped needle point which I took from a drafting compass. This aggressive treatment created visible holes in the hammer felt so I took a large pall peen hammer and hammered the hammer tops in order to flex the fibers and limber them up. The wholes disappeared and the hammer felt seemed to expand slightly and looked quite restored. I put the action back in and was quite astonished at the transformation. Instead of killing the tone, what I had done actually transformed the piano. Now a whole range of pianissimo dynamics made itself audible. Fortissimo tone was not diminished and the forte tone was more beautiful. The effect was to widen the dynamic range with the addition of a range of colors that was missing before. Furthermore ten years later the piano maintains this splendid tone so the method is very stable. It works wonders on older hammers with hard surface felt. A quick draw of 60 grit to remove groves then heavy needling with the spike following by peening takes 15 or 20 minutes. 

    Sometimes only peening is necessary. This method is especially effective on expanding pianissimo range with New York Steinway lacquer dipped hammers. I've been told of a story by a student at the Steinway Factory. The teacher, Joe Bisceglie, was having trouble with a particular hammer and he whipped out a large ball peen hammer from under the work bench and gave the hammer head a whack with effective result.   Note that this method can break hammer tails so be careful!

    Don't take my word for it:

    David Graham in Chicago wrote on June 11, 2014:

    "David, I wanted to let you know that I have enjoyed adding your voicing tools and techniques to my bag of tricks. Also, I used it last week on the Fazioli 228 which was out for the North Shore Chamber Music Festival (Anne Akiko Meyers was part of festival.) On the first day everyone raved about how the piano sounded, including Allessio Bax, a friend of Paolo Fazioli, who has played many Fazioli pianos. On the second day, I thought it needed some voicing in 4-6 octave range: some notes a bit tight sounding, other too piercing. I went over this area with your tools, maybe 15 minutes. Allessio came in and ran his fingers over the area lightly, his head nearly swiveled off, sat down and played chromatically at various volumes through the area. He then looked up, amazed, and said "It's like a different piano! I can play pianissimo! Whatever you did, it's magic!" They raved about the piano all day and through the next, which ended the festival. Thought you would want to hear how well it works.  One final thing- I used it yesterday on an old Yamaha G7 with very worn hammers. As I used the needle tool, I could see the string grooves begin to disappear as the felt came back to life. After hammering the felt the grooves were almost completely gone, and the piano had a warm singing tone."  

    I've called it spike and peen or deep sugaring. Whatever you call it, the method works wonders.  I never leave home without my compass needle, ball peen hammer and voicing block for backing up the tails in grands.

    You can get the needles online at:

    http://www.draftingsteals.com/20046.html

    ------------------------------
    David Stanwood
    http://stanwoodpiano.com
    West Tisbury MA
    508-693-1583
    ------------------------------



  • 51.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-29-2017 13:08
    David-
    Thanks for posting this.
    I've used this technique for several year with results as you describe.
    I think part of what makes it work is the rather broad taper of the point (I use a 78rpm phono needle)
    First, the taper limits how deep the needle goes into the felt
    and second, it produces a gradation of disruption in the felt, most at the surface, tapering to little at the point of the needle, so the
    result is a gradation of flexibility in the layer of felt, softest at the surface and hard at the bottom.
    This gradation in turn produces a gradation of response to the force of the hammer blow.
    For someone who has not seen this technique, it can be frightening to see the vigor with which the hammers can be needled.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 52.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-30-2017 11:04
    For the past couple of years I have used the compass point needling on grands as other have described, to good effect.  

    Here's another use:  You are dojng a one day or less action regulation and hammer filing on a spinet, console, or upright where time is of the essence.  You have filed the hammers. You then go through quickly and machine gun the crowns with the compass point tool.  I spend 5 to 10 minutes doing this, and it gives a lot of bang for the buck.  A noticeable and positive tonal effect for a small investment of time.  


    ------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    ------------------------------



  • 53.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-30-2017 09:51
    Interesting David.

    About how deep do you insert the compass point, or is there a range?

    Would an awl or even something like knitting needles get a similar result, do you suppose?

    ------------------------------
    Paul Clement
    Mississauga ON
    paul@clementpiano.com
    ------------------------------



  • 54.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-03-2017 01:02
    Ok. I feel compelled to add (although very humbly) to David Stanwood's technique using compass needles and ball peen hammer.
    I provide contact work for a local Steinway dealer. I had the opportunity to prep a new B for a master class/lecture for local piano teachers. The piano was somewhat strident in tone, not a huge dynamic range, but I felt it had great potential. I did normal prep as far as refining regulation and preliminary voicing- traveling, burning in shanks, leveling strings, fitting hammers to strings, blah, blah, blah. 
    I had purchased the voicing tool from Boaz Kirschenbaum, and viewed the short video, and applied the technique.
    I was very impressed with the result. However, I really suck as a pianist.
    As it turned out, the clinician who gave the master class was absolutely floored with the piano and raved about it completely unsolicited to the attendees of the class.

    And the icing on the cake was that a piano faculty member from one of the local universities bought the piano that day!

    Sometimes, everything clicks!

    Rogers out.




    ------------------------------
    Scott Rogers
    Bobs Piano Service
    Sioux Falls SD
    605-366-7630
    ------------------------------



  • 55.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-03-2017 10:27
    I am SO GLAD I was able to go to one of David's classes several years ago which highlighted this technique. Sadly (until now) I never really experimented with this enough--I have my nice pinvise and special needle but I stalled out on locating one of those amazing little ball-pein hammers. 
    David, Boaz or anyone have a resource for a decent teentzie weenzie ball pein suited for this? I can't wait to get back into this!

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 56.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 05-04-2017 22:03
      |   view attached
    To answer your question Kevin,
    There is a smaller option. I am sure you can google your way into one. It is a ball-pein for making and repairing jewelry, as you describe, "teentzie weenzie..."

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 57.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 05-03-2017 10:57

    Scott,

    You've touched on some of the factors here in the "Voicing kit" antecedent to any mechanical tool you possess or could obtain, i.e., popularity. It is great to be prepared for the opportunity, but as someone who expanded his tool chest gradually, as the opportunities presented themselves, I would dissuade Benjamin from spending too much money before you see that your skills are in demand. Getting people in the arts community to like you is the first priority. I've seen too many killer pianists that can't get into the circuit. You see people that play better than the whole faculty combined, blow everybody away, only to completely disappear into oblivion. This, again, is a philosophical problem as well, one Kant attempted to address when trying to be heard. You observe:

    "As it turned out, the clinician who gave the master class was absolutely floored with the piano and raved about it completely unsolicited to the attendees of the class.

    And the icing on the cake was that a piano faculty member from one of the local universities bought the piano that day!"

    That kind of thing helps more than any particular tool. The arts community is very fickle. Wandering through it in schools for 20 years and interacting with pianists from the studio as a student, a much more intimate way of communicating with pianists, about impediments and openings to success, reveals a lot, as much as piano technicians within it, on the other hand, which more directly addressed voicing methods and tools, again, a much more intimate way of communicating with piano technicians about the same. Conclusion? Methods are secondary to getting people to like you. I've seen too many types of voicing techniques and too many types of hammers work. It's a popularity contest. Even tenure is not an impregnable fortress against being unpopular. I've seen relying on tenure end in complete humiliation.

    Social media was not created for people serious about piano as a performance instrument. This is where some confusion lies. The same people are playing in Sydney, Hong Kong, Manaus, New York, Tokyo, Buenos Aires, Los Angeles, London, Moscow, Seoul, Berlin, Athens, Paris, from Amsterdam to Cape Town, from Toronto to Patagonia, it is a circuit where people are talking about one another constantly in the Latin of the place. It is still a business of referral. The arts world is a small world. The arts community and the pianists in it are stubborn about this to some extent because of how cruel social media has been to it. Marketing yourself in social media as good at voicing can be as great a problem for your business as a solution, marketing yourself at all, even, because to a great extent the attitude in the arts is that you should not have to when performers are flying around the world talking to people face to face internationally and providing information about piano technicians and their voicing abilities that will subvert anything you could provide for the same people in social media. Of course there are exceptions to all rules. And they are not talking about the tools you are using.

    Can you change the mind of the arts community about you if they have a good, bad, or no opinion about you? Not really. These people make up their minds for good. Most pianists are pianists for life, which creates some alienation between us, as that some people come to piano technology later in life. Usually, that takes somebody else, changing minds about the ability you have to voice or anything else with a piano, people, not a school, not improving your skills, not better tools, not continuing education through guilds and what not. It can go either way.

    The PTG can change the opinion of people about you, from bad to good, or good to bad, unknown to known, known to unknown. Should it be that way? No. We should only be taking people from bad to good, and unknown to known, and we like to see the PTG through rose colored glasses and imagine this is the case. But the arts community, particularly, techs, are well aware that it can be the other way around, and so, don't join. Same with NY Steinway. That is why some stay away from NY Steinway and do better than all of us.

    Best voicing tool I can recommend, is patience, keeping down expenses, not going into debt. Don't put the cart before the horse. Not that being a good voicer happens all by itself. You can't force people to give you the opportunity. Sorry if that sounds fatalistic.    



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 58.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 05-03-2017 11:32

    The last photo is of one of two post extenders I made . The action is leaned forward and still sits on its bottom bolts and is ver stable. Any preferred method of needling can be done.

     

    Ted Sambell

     

    Sent from Mail for Windows 10

     






  • 59.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-04-2017 08:00
    Kevin F Wrote: >David, Boaz or anyone have a resource for a decent teentzie weenzie ball pein suited for this? I can't wait to get back into this!

    I use a smallish ball peen with the handle cut off short.  I like having a little more weight behind the peening. Most hardware stores have these.

    David Stanwood






  • 60.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-04-2017 14:14
    Thanks David! I found one yesterday almost exactly like this. I will definitely be cutting the handle off as you mentioned. It's made by Vaughn USA and says 2oz right on the head. The other one in the pic is too small I think, and more importantly it too flat on the "pein" end. Like zero "pein". I think I picked this tiny thing up at "China Freight". I did get an adjustable 3 needle voicing tool recently so now I can fit these "pein & bean" (forgot sorry) tools into my primary voicing kit so it's always at my fingertips. 
    Thanks again!

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 61.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 05-04-2017 22:43
    Stanwood,

    It is a great memory to have met you so informally and easier for you to forget in Cincinnati and I am glad you chimed in here.

    Lately, neighbors and stumbling through random scores hoping to improve repetoire have motivated me to focus on my ppp execution more than ever as a player in 40 years, in some ways contrary to my catechism. I've found the greatest challenges @ ppp the piano presents from a technical perspective though voicing certainly contributes, to be in the areas of regulation, and dampers, controlling pedal free vibration, i.e., noise, and determining exactly what role the una corde must play. Every problem with damper timing, and the celerity of damping itself, is accentuated infinitely @ ppp. Particularly let off, repetition spring lever tension, and drop present problems in regulation I never experienced wood shedding and practicing with what piano instructors call body sound, app. mf, appear in the process of getting accustomed to Giesekingesque volumes, who seemed more than any other who excelled at recording to thrive at low volume. 

    It would be an interesting discussion, the technical problems of ppp execution. Not ready to start it. 

    A Bechstein tech taught me at BHA in a group technical Dayton many years ago that the crown of the hammer and its manipulation represents the ppp section of the hammer felt, and that as you begin to descend around the crown toward the shoulder and waist, modifying hammer density manipulates augmented dynamics as you fall. Not trying to challenge you to respond, but am wondering if you have thoughts about that as I have more than once read your thoughts about crown voicing and pp with sundry topics. 


    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 62.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2017 03:15
    <<It would be an interesting discussion, the technical problems of ppp execution. Not ready to start it. >>

    I feel ready to start it ... if anyone is interested. I don't think it's even all that hard, only it's unfashionable these days.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 63.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2017 07:49
    Hi Ben,

    Expanding dynamic range by extending pianissimo is a really important topic.  Yes!  Kind of busy with students just now but here is my rock of Gibraltar when it comes to voicing.  It's a quote by Alfred Dolge:  

    "The art in hammer making has ever been to obtain a solid, firm foundation, graduating in softness and elasticity toward the top surface, which latter has to be silky and elastic in order to produce a mild, soft tone for pianissimo playing, but with sufficient resistance back of it to permit the hard blow of fortissimo playing."

    For now,

    David 
    A Bechstein tech taught me at BHA in a group technical Dayton many years ago that the crown of the hammer and its manipulation represents the ppp section of the hammer felt, and that as you begin to descend around the crown toward the shoulder and waist, modifying hammer density manipulates augmented dynamics as you fall. Not trying to challenge you to respond, but am wondering if you have thoughts about that as I have more than once read your thoughts about crown voicing and pp with sundry topics. 
    Benjamin Sloane,  05-04-2017 22:42


    ------------------------------
    David Stanwood
    Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
    West Tisbury MA
    ------------------------------



  • 64.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2017 10:58
    This is, indeed, a great topic for discussion, and one with considerable complexity.

    As a starting point, I would agree with Ben Sloane that, when it comes to the pianist's control of PPP playing, the most important factors are in regulation, starting with close and consistent let off, and including a number of other factors, including drop, jack to knuckle alignment, knuckle condition, rep spring strength, aftertouch, dampers, etc. - and especially consistency in all these factors. Until you have laid this groundwork, you can't really begin to talk about the felt.

    And when it comes to the felt and the kind of response we want to try to get from it, PPP can't be separated from the entire dynamic range. IOW, the whole range must always be considered, as it is the ability to bring out notes at every dynamic range that is key to expressivity in piano music. Bringing out notes means that a very small amount of increase of force/speed of hammer produces a change of timbre such that a given note becomes prominent. This is very interactive, as the actual technique consists not so much in punching out the top note (commonly), but in learning to bring down the notes you want to be background.

    Dolge's idea that "The art in hammer making has ever been to obtain a solid, firm foundation, graduating in softness and elasticity toward the top surface, which latter has to be silky and elastic in order to produce a mild, soft tone for pianissimo playing, but with sufficient resistance back of it to permit the hard blow of fortissimo playing" is somewhat of a contradiction in terms, when it comes to the type of hammer-making process Dolge was largely responsible for inventing: a single sheet of felt stretched around a molding (sometimes with one layer of under felt, but that is not much of a factor). Prior to Dolge, hammers were mostly covered with multiple layers of material. Originally this was all leather, later felt was added for the top surface(s). In most cases, the interior material was quite a bit denser than the top layers. It was quite practical to graduate the density of the layers (though the process required considerably skill).

    With the Dolge hammer making process, efficiency is achieved by simply doing the entire pressing of felt material for all the hammers of a piano in one procedure, and cutting them apart. The down side of this is that there are only a limited number of variables, starting with the selection of fibers, the overall density and felting process of the felt sheet (typically graduated in some way from bass to treble), plus the thickness, the way in which the sheet is cut, the pressure of the press, whether or not heat is added, etc.. Regardless of how these variables are selected, the felt will be pulled around a molding, meaning that there is considerable compression of material at the crown, and considerable tension of the material around the hammer from shoulder to shoulder.

    How is it possible to match that model with Dolge's ideal? The outer surface of the felt is stretched very tightly around a very dense interior material. It is pretty much guaranteed not to be "silky and elastic" as it comes out of the press. IOW, the hammer maker cannot create the hammer according to the ideal of Dolge, using his procedure. Putting the hammer into that condition is the job of the voicer, called the "felt picker" in Dolge's day (there is quite a bit of discussion of the felt pickers' job in Piano Tone Building from slightly after Dolge's time).


    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 65.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-29-2017 12:07
    Benjamin,
    For a "hook" to raise a hammer to the strings it is better to have a right angle, rather than a curve. A curved hook can influence the orientation of the hammer if you aren't very careful.

    Ted Sambell said he has trouble with pressing the hammer using the jack tender. That method only works when let off is set quite close, no more than 1.5 mm. I prefer to do mating that way in part because it provides a double check on my let off regulation. (Then, after refining aftertouch, I "play the notes off the jack," meaning lower the keys to drop contact, then press rapidly down to assure that they all sound, and at approximately the same force/volume. That provides a second check on let of distance).
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda






  • 66.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-30-2017 13:52
      |   view attached
    Benjamin, I thought I'd share with the group a photo of the lovely string lifter Ted Sambell made for me. He made the handle (of a lovely wood) extremely smooth so that one wouldn't be tempted to pull the hammer into the string too hard.

    Owning something like this makes one aware of one's responsibility to make the work as high in quality as the tool.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 67.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 04-30-2017 16:34

    Susan, thank you so much for posting your photo of the lifter. I don't think I have one. The handle is made of cocobolo by the way, which I bought from Lee Valley Tools. They usually have small pieces of exotic woods, but don't include them in their catalog.  But they happen to have a store here, which is always worth a visit. They display everything on shelves, with catalog #s attached.

    You list  your purchases on a form and take it to the counter to check out, and your items are brought from the storeroom. You can get a good look at everything, even handle them.

     

    Andre Orebeek's book has a photo of his shank lifter which is almost identical to mine, but I did not copy it. I had made it years before I got the book. It's interesting how similar solutions can arise independently.

     

    Ted

     






  • 68.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-01-2017 12:58
    Someone recently recommended Pianotek's Permagrit files as an alternative to the traditional sandpaper files. Does anyone have experience with these? How do they work compared to the sandpaper files?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Lompoc CA
    805-315-8050
    benpianopro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 69.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 05-01-2017 16:22
    I've used the permagrit files and they are quite good and will last a long time. If you're use to the actual paper, it might take some getting acquainted with the feel. One of the best sanding paddles is one that can rotate the "belt" sandpaper and has an angled side which works well for shoulders to crown filing. Check out woodworkers catalogue and the like.

    Sent from my iPad




  • 70.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 05-02-2017 01:27
    I have been using the permagrit files from Pianotek for several years. In fact, I used them for a couple hours today. I find them very useful for filing hammers. I have two grits.

    ------------------------------
    Jordan Porter
    ------------------------------



  • 71.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-01-2017 17:33
    Thanks, Ted. Yes, it looks like cocobolo. Very pretty.

    While I'm sure I could make a replacement, I'm being very careful not to lose yours. Your stringing hook with the boxwood handle also is superior, and the simple brass punching lifter, which works better than the standard one. I'll see about sharing photos of those, too. They live in my stringing kit, of course.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 72.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-01-2017 18:42
    Ah ha, I found the tool I referenced earlier. It is called an "Action Post Extension"; made and sold by AMS Piano Tools. From what I understand, you can attach it to an upright action in order to lean the action back far enough to get your tool in there. The third arm you always wanted to have!



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Lompoc CA
    805-315-8050
    benpianopro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 73.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 05-01-2017 20:31
    Here's a few photos of tools mention previously. The first is the probes made from salvaged bass strings.



    Side Voicing Pliers: I glued a a half-round segment to orient the needle better for insertion. I cut a slot across the center for the needles to clear when closed.  A segment of player hose for storage.






    Often I find that rotating the needle barrel 90 degrees on The Bolduc Side Voicing Tool is more comfortable and steady to use. The only drawback is that the bearing wheel is 90 degrees to the handle and wears a depression.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 74.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 05-02-2017 01:40

    Benjamin, the action post  extension was designed by a blind man named Peniston. I think his first name was Oscar.  Curiously, his name is still attached to a center pin repair flange he also designed. I have one I always carry one n my kit.

     

    Ted Sambell

     






  • 75.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-02-2017 10:27
    Good to know Ted, I will remember to give him credit in the future. I have seen it before, but never used it. Does it work well, particularly in the area of upright voicing?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Lompoc CA
    805-315-8050
    benpianopro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 76.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-02-2017 10:56
    The main issue with upright voicing is supporting the hammers. Whether the action is installed or leaned back somewhat, the support issue remains. Leaning back gives more access, but various needling tools make it just as convenient to do voicing in place. I find that for that sort of voicing, single needle in the crown area is pretty much the limit, as the other hand is all that is firmly supporting the hammer. (That wouldn't be true of needling through the sides, something I have experimented with and not found helpful for me).

    For deep needling, laying the action "on its back" and supporting the hammer moldings with something solid (length of 2 x 4) is pretty essential. That way you can actually insert a 3 needle tool deep (10 mm or so) into the felt, which is what I find to be the most consistently effective way to voice.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 77.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-06-2017 23:28
    In an earlier post I shared a pic of my 4 needle adjustable angle voicing tool. Most of the high(er) quality multi needle voicing tools I've seen have only 3 needles. Do the 3 needle tools work better than the 4 needle ones? Thanks,

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Lompoc CA
    805-315-8050
    benpianopro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 78.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-07-2017 15:52
    Three or four needles? Personally, I only use one.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 79.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-07-2017 18:45
    Between a 3 needle voicing tool and a 4, I would recommend a 3. A weighted one CAN be very useful.

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 80.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 05-12-2017 15:28
    This is very informative Edward. Thank you.

    It is important to add that Rachmaninoff was 6'6 with a hand span that reached an octave and a fifth. A very important reference are the Rachmaninoff plays Rachmaninoff recordings which I spent a great deal of time with. Though we are not haberdashers, this voicing technique-it seems obvious to me-is tailored for the size of the man and his hands. The recordings produce a voicing that sounds muddy and lacks clarity, frankly. There is no punch from a solid shoulder. It would be overpowering to many smaller pianists in a hall to do this to a hammer of that sort.

    There also seems to be a kind of "This ain't tin pan alley" style to this voicing technique. His competitors in the States were Gershwin, Fats Waller, etc. You would have to be a very powerful player to fill a hall with the sound you get from the Rachmaninoff recordings in the voicing.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 81.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Posted 05-13-2017 16:22

    A book I  read, "Duet for three hands" was by a British duo piano married couple who were among the first foreign musicians to tour Russia after WW11. Their names were Phyllis Sellick and Cyril Smith. During their tour Cyril Smith suffered a stroke, but made a recovery, playing with one hand and arranging music for three hands, hence the title. He mentioned that like Rachmaninov he could play an octave plus a fifth, but that Rachmaninov with his right hand could play a C major common chord with four  fingers and reach under with his thumb and play the E a major third above at the same time.

     

    As for the voicing on those pianos back then, even in my younger days they were voiced down more than is usual now, and we cannot discount the difference in recorded sound which has evolved. During my own concert tuning career I found, not always ,that very powerful pianists preferred voicing to be softer. Eugene Istumin, Jean Casadasu and Peter Donahoe for example.

    Rudolf Serkin liked it fairly bright. Glenn Gould too, though he eventually played with the una corda depressed all the time. But he was unique, a law unto himself.

     

    Ted Sambell

     

    Sent from Mail for Windows 10

     






  • 82.  RE: Voicing Kit

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-30-2017 15:19
    Hello all,

    Just thought you'd be interested in the outcome of my hunt for a voicing kit - howbeit 8 months after the original question was posted.

    After reading through the suggestions, I decided on the following for my first voicing kit:
    • sandpaper strips for polishing 
    • carbite file for shaping
    • support blocks
    • chopstick voicer 
    • four needle tool (because I already had it) w/ combination handle
    • pin vise with ball handle
    • sytlish case to go with it
    In the last 8 months, I've had two jobs where the sole purpose is voicing, plus several times voicing individual hammers on a service call.

    While these tools worked well, I found that (specifically on those two "voicing only" jobs), about 1/3 of my total time was spent on changing out my needles to different lengths. Unscrew the four set screws, pull the needles, cut the needles or insert previously cut needles, relighted the set screws, do a few hammers, and repeat. Very time consuming.

    Recently I bit the bullet I should have bitten months ago, and purchased the adjustable needle length voicing tool. Oh, I wish I had done that months ago! It is so much faster, so much better, and has a much more comfortable handle than my combination handle. 

    I want to thank all of you for all the advice, those of you still here and our dearly departed. I have several voicing jobs lined up for January, one of them with a new set of hammers. I feel very well prepared, and I know it's because of two things: getting some experience over the last year, and all the advice y'all so freely give.

    Thanks,

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------